Official BBR Tier List v5

[Luigi player]

Wait, how?

shield grab = 1 frame to cancel the shield + 7 frames for the grab to come out = 8 frames.
dsmash = 6 (or 7, i keep hearing different numbers from different people) frames to drop shield, 4 for the hitbox to come out = 12/13 frames.

I must be missing something.

7+4= 11

And her grab takes 12 frames, that's why it's so bad.

 

[Yikarur]

Standing Grab Grabs in Frame 12 and Shield drop are 7 frames.

 

[bigman40]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your concern sounds like that there's no way to tell who is to say you can or can't put a handicap on yourself unless you're the TO and go out of your way to say something like "Handicap fixation is prohibited" or whatever.

In which I agree. I don't see much of a problem with allowing handicaps. Peoples' thing seems to be that "oh, this character's metagame is developed around specific percentages, this is a surgical nerf, blah blah blah!"

... Then how about you make it so that the character is actually better outside these specific scenarios?

I don't know, Meta Knight is still pretty good even if he can't Uair > Uair (times infinity) > Tornado. Just one example, but you know, that's just me. Yay for playing a moderately bad character.

I can wait.

K. Re-quoting to help.

My argument is that by allowing handicap to be used, we're taking away from what was gained (and deemed not broken) from the standard ruleset given by brawl itself (1.0 Damage Ratio, 0 Handicap) to characters. Giving someone the ability to choose whether they want to or not, wait until they're out of chain-grab percents with no say of the player playing the character that benefits from landing a grab to set up for it eliminates percent based chain-grabs and changes matchups to where characters that have winning matchups could instantly have losing matchups. While it changes a few matchups that are force a slew of characters to camp, it doesn't solve the fact that most characters still have a lot of glaring weaknesses from it.

As for some assumptions, I believe Pikachu is targeted the most from this. Falco, is targeted some, but not nearly to make matchups that much better.


But at any rate, if a majority can agree to this, then it can still be used in attempt to "balance" the gaps between the good and bad characters. I opted for damage ratio changes, but then Snake would become stronger in this scenario. MK remains unaffected from handicaps, but could possibly be nerfed from Damage Ratio changes.

 

[Spelt]

7+4= 11

And her grab takes 12 frames, that's why it's so bad.

I already fixed my mistake.


And i thought her grab was only one frame slower than normal.
didn't realize it was THAT bad, lol.

Standing Grab Grabs in Frame 12 and Shield drop are 7 frames.

& thanks.

 

[Fuujin]

I already fixed my mistake.


And i thought her grab was only one frame slower than normal.
didn't realize it was THAT bad, lol.



& thanks.

She's totally not as bad as she ranked right now right?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I dont think Zelda is as bad as she is now. I play Tsuteto all the time and Zelda's got some decent stuff going for her. Not amazing, but decent, which is better than a couple other characters around there. *cough*jigglypuff*cough*

 

[Xebenkeck]

Zelda got pimped slapped by Pierce7D in his tier list opinions thread a while back, and he somehow convinced everyone that zelda is trash, i feel she is still better than link, c.falcon, samus and jiggly at least. Coersion is apparently a good skill to have

 

[Juushichi]

Jigglypuff and Falcon are the only arguable characters worse than Zelda. Why you mentioned Samus and Link is beyond me.

You may main Ness who used to be a low tier, but it's obvious that you don't know crap about it.

 

[Fuujin]

You may main Ness who used to be a low tier, but it's obvious that you don't know crap about it.

Iloveyou.


"I don't know anything about the characters under Yoshi, but I THINK so and so shouldn't be where they are now." - Many people on this thread

 

[Xebenkeck]

o, neither does the BBR considering falcon, one of the characters you mentioned, is above link, a character you think is better than zelda. so...... unless your opinion is 100% correct.......... i digress


Also Fuujiin i have second zelda from the begining of the game, so i know most about those two.(ness and zelda)

 

[Spelt]

She's totally not as bad as she ranked right now right?

no, she's bad.
Actually, with that slow of a grab, i can't help but think she was intended to be a joke character, like ganon.

 

[Fuujin]

no, she's bad.
Actually, with that slow of a grab, i can't help but think she was intended to be a joke character, like ganon.

I love you too, please come to the Zelda boards.

I'm told, "Just get better" or "don't be a scrub" when I say I think she's garbage on par with Ganondorf.

 

[Juushichi]

@Nessn00b

To put it candidly, I don't think the BBR quite hit the nail right on a good bit of the mid-to-low tiers sans a few here or there. It wasn't a bad effort and I'm not a BBR basher, but the fact of the matter is that it's kind of hard to evaluate characters that are rare, mediocre and bad in a wind tunnel like some people are trying to do.

 

[Spelt]

I love you too, please come to the Zelda boards.

I'm told, "Just get better" or "don't be a scrub" when I say I think she's garbage on par with Ganondorf.

It's okay, you're just one of the few people who isn't unhealthily biased towards your main.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Ok fair point, however that can apply to everyone, every person has different ideas about these charcters that like you said, are rare and HARD to judge. Like i said zelda to me, is not worse than jiggly and falcon for sure in my mind. Samus and link are truely debatable, but IMO zelda has far less exploitable weaknesses(but still exploitable, don't get me wrong) than samus and link, and she has far more extreme strengths as either of them as well.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Zelda is pretty close to even with Samus imo, but Link > Zelda for sure. Zelda imo is better than Falcon, Jiggs, and Ganny.

Imo, low tier should look like this:



Luigi is balls, he's soooo over rated it's not even funny. He's hung with DK and the gang for long enough and should move down where he belongs. He's just too slow with a terrible projectile, he cant do anything out o shield due to no traction. Not to mention it sends him away from the opponent making him have to approach again which he cant do.

Lucas I think has the potential to leave low tier, but hasn't yet proved he's better than Weegee and PT (who I believe should take his spot in low tier when/if Lucas does eventually get out). He just needs to step it up a bit, nothing much different here.

Mario is just an average character in a game full of above average characters. Which makes him below average.

Bowser and link are pretty close in my opinion, but Bowser beats out Link only because he has a decent air game, good grab release shenanigans, a better recovery, and doesn't get gayed as bad by anyone in low tier (since yoshi is gone).

I'd do the rest, but Im bored now. *waits to be flamed*

 

[Xebenkeck]

Bowser upB OoS is still ****, remember that ppl

 

[Z'zgashi]

And it does like 12% as well. O.o

 

[Fuujin]

zelda has far less exploitable weaknesses(but still exploitable, don't get me wrong) than samus and link, and she has far more extreme strengths as either of them as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Except you don't even know my statements. Drop it, you have no clue what you're even talking about now. Troll somebody else.

*looks back at your previous posts*

You sure?
Quit trying to backpedal, its not gonna kill you to admit you're wrong.

It's a different argument now. Of course you knew that. Of course you had to bring it up still, despite it having nothing to do with anything I talked about earlier.

Hey its your words not mine.
I also find it funny you're complaining about trolling when, if what you said earlier was NOT your thoughts, would this mean you were trolling for ****s and giggles.


So which is it?

If trolling...quit whining about being trolled.
If not...you end up a scrub.

It requires almost no time really, it takes effort no whatsoever and post space is abundant. Worthy trade for the amusement I get.

Translation: I MAD

Protip.
DI downward and Tech.

I am quite sure you can't unless you are considered in the air.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zelda is pretty close to even with Samus imo, but Link > Zelda for sure. Zelda imo is better than Falcon, Jiggs, and Ganny.

Imo, low tier should look like this:



Luigi is balls, he's soooo over rated it's not even funny. He's hung with DK and the gang for long enough and should move down where he belongs. He's just too slow with a terrible projectile, he cant do anything out o shield due to no traction. Not to mention it sends him away from the opponent making him have to approach again which he cant do.

Lucas I think has the potential to leave low tier, but hasn't yet proved he's better than Weegee and PT (who I believe should take his spot in low tier when/if Lucas does eventually get out). He just needs to step it up a bit, nothing much different here.

Mario is just an average character in a game full of above average characters. Which makes him below average.

Bowser and link are pretty close in my opinion, but Bowser beats out Link only because he has a decent air game, good grab release shenanigans, a better recovery, and doesn't get gayed as bad by anyone in low tier (since yoshi is gone).

I'd do the rest, but Im bored now. *waits to be flamed*

I don't know about Link above Samus.

*Still disagrees with Luigi in low tier*

 

[Savon]

Could you explain why you feel like Luigi should not be in low tier? I am not sure WHERE he should be, but I am curious to what your logic is for why he would not.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Luigi is balls, he's soooo over rated it's not even funny. He's hung with DK and the gang for long enough and should move down where he belongs. He's just too slow with a terrible projectile, he cant do anything out o shield due to no traction. Not to mention it sends him away from the opponent making him have to approach again which he cant do.

<3

Btw, what kind of positive match ups do characters like Zelda/Jiggly/Falcon have? If you gonna put Zelda above anyone besides Ganondorf, I'm guessing she is gonna have to have favorable match ups against more then him too.

 

[Spelt]

...jigglypuff goes even with diddy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

...jigglypuff goes even with diddy.

Are we gonna talk about this again?

 

[Exceladon City]

I don't know about Link above Samus.

*Still disagrees with Luigi in low tier*

Luigi is atleast bottom of mid tier or top of low.

He has glaringly bad flaws that people have failed to abuse for 2 years.

1. He has TERRIBLE mobility. Like his mobility is absolutely laughable.

Here is a list of things Crash discovered that outspeed Luigi.
-The Smashville Platform
-The Lava Wall at Norfair
-PURPLE PIKMIN

Luigi is too slow to keep up with purple Pikmin or escape death.

2. He has next to no approach. If Luigi runs up to you and you move away, he's essentially getting nowhere. If he shields and you hit his shield, he slides away and has to repeat the process.

3. Luigi can't force approaches. His fireball doesn't go anywhere far enough to be threatening. So, he's prone to being camped stupid hard. Which plays into reason number 2.

4. He has no real range. He loses out to ANYONE that outranges him. If you have a sword, you're already beating Luigi. If your limbs are longer than Luigi's, you're beating Luigi.

Yeah, Luigi sucks.

 

[Spelt]

Are we gonna talk about this again?

Yes!








Oreo, a random list of bad characteristics doesn't mean anything when you don't have anything to compare or relate it to.


"Did you hear about the 2 people dying from that car crash?"

"No."

"It was pretty bad."

"Did YOU hear about 57 people dying in that plane crash?"

"Oh..."

 

[-LzR-]

I am not going to have this Puff is not the 2nd worst argument again...

But she gets destroyed by Diddy lol.
And she beats the crappy characters like Falcon and Ganon pretty badly.

 

[Orion*]

Define bad

I have everyone under DK labeled as bad. By that definition, Sonic is still bad.

LOLOL

i define bad as any character that realistically shouldnt be making money in any decent sized, (30+ people) tourneys.

much broader

ive seen some trash chars do that

we should extend this to anyone that is below meta knight and diddy IMO

lost to snake?

don't be a scrub, losing to low tiers smh

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

Oh no, no, no.
Sonic is STILL bad.

He's just not as bad as the current tier list, or preconceived notions of the character, have made him out to be.

this

Ensis (MJG), Jash, Kingtoon.

Hush child.

thank you

@Lzr: Figure out who sucks less.

i like this

Listing off the good TL players still doesn;'t change that he doesn't place well at anything large and important.

why dont you look at results yourself for a change instead of assuming you know whats going on, you clearly dont -.-

No it's true. Falco's can get more DMG then just the 40% from a single CG. By starting off with 40% that eliminates any possibilities of follow ups after the CG. I was gonna agree with the handicap thing but MMM's point is pretty much correct

this

If it doesn't apply to you ... I'm not talking about you

ITT: Shadowscrub84 is still in the BBR without any knowledge or skill at this game whatsoever. You should create a Back Room for Super Theory Brothers because that's the only place where you're actually useful.

Edit: Although I actually doubt you're even useful there.

i laughed irl pretty hard actually

I actually saw a Zelda player do it to a Kirby in a tournament friendly

im drunk and its 7am. and im going to have to ask you
wtf does that mean LOL

for the record ive seen atomsk beat ikons mk in tourny with ganon so doesnt mean a lot

...jigglypuff goes even with diddy.

no.......

 

[Spelt]

It's getting to the point where i need to tag all of my posts with or else people think i'm being completely serious.
because that describes me perfectly.

 

[Exceladon City]

Oreo, a random list of bad characteristics doesn't mean anything when you don't have anything to compare or relate it to.


"Did you hear about the 2 people dying from that car crash?"

"No."

"It was pretty bad."

"Did YOU hear about 57 people dying in that plane crash?"

"Oh..."

Okay, let's compare Luigi to Mario. Both are about the same level. One is pretty average, the other is IMO below average.

MARIO
PROS:
-Has a decent approach
-Has traction
-Good air speed
-Relatively decent projectile
-Good ground speed
-3 frame Get Out of Jail Free Card.

CONS
-Poor melee range
-Average kill power
-Below average recovery
-Below average close quarters game

LUIGI
PROS:
-Exceptionally high kill power
-Above average priority
-Above average close quarters game
-Relatively good recovery

CONS:
-No traction
-No reliable approach
-Slow airspeed
-Mediocre projectile
-Poor melee range
-Poor ground speed


There, happy?

 

[phi1ny3]

Luigi is atleast bottom of mid tier or top of low.

He has glaringly bad flaws that people have failed to abuse for 2 years.

1. He has TERRIBLE mobility. Like his mobility is absolutely laughable.

Here is a list of things Crash discovered that outspeed Luigi.
-The Smashville Platform
-The Lava Wall at Norfair
-PURPLE PIKMIN

Luigi is too slow to keep up with purple Pikmin or escape death.

2. He has next to no approach. If Luigi runs up to you and you move away, he's essentially getting nowhere. If he shields and you hit his shield, he slides away and has to repeat the process.

3. Luigi can't force approaches. His fireball doesn't go anywhere far enough to be threatening. So, he's prone to being camped stupid hard. Which plays into reason number 2.

4. He has no real range. He loses out to ANYONE that outranges him. If you have a sword, you're already beating Luigi. If your limbs are longer than Luigi's, you're beating Luigi.

Yeah, Luigi sucks.

Wow, that list is hilarious, and sad LOL.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Luigi is atleast bottom of mid tier or top of low.

He has glaringly bad flaws that people have failed to abuse for 2 years.

1. He has TERRIBLE mobility. Like his mobility is absolutely laughable.

Here is a list of things Crash discovered that outspeed Luigi.
-The Smashville Platform
-The Lava Wall at Norfair
-PURPLE PIKMIN

Luigi is too slow to keep up with purple Pikmin or escape death.

2. He has next to no approach. If Luigi runs up to you and you move away, he's essentially getting nowhere. If he shields and you hit his shield, he slides away and has to repeat the process.

3. Luigi can't force approaches. His fireball doesn't go anywhere far enough to be threatening. So, he's prone to being camped stupid hard. Which plays into reason number 2.

4. He has no real range. He loses out to ANYONE that outranges him. If you have a sword, you're already beating Luigi. If your limbs are longer than Luigi's, you're beating Luigi.

Yeah, Luigi sucks.

I'm a little curious on what you mean on the Purple Pikmin.

 

[Exceladon City]

Crash, a Luigi main that was the best in the MW next to YoshQ, was playing against Hilt during a smashfest. Hilt, tosses a purple at Crash, who then proceeded to chase down aforementioned Pikmin to kill it and could not catch it. Luigi gets outran by Precious the Pikmin.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Okay, let's compare Luigi to Mario. Both are about the same level. One is pretty average, the other is IMO below average.

MARIO
PROS:
-Has a decent approach
-Has traction
-Good air speed
-Relatively decent projectile
-Good ground speed
-3 frame Get Out of Jail Free Card.

CONS
-Poor melee range
-Average kill power
-Below average recovery
-Below average close quarters game

LUIGI
PROS:
-Exceptionally high kill power
-Above average priority
-Above average close quarters game
-Relatively good recovery

CONS:
-No traction
-No reliable approach
-Slow airspeed
-Mediocre projectile
-Poor melee range
-Poor ground speed


There, happy?

Not really, Luigi's range is better than Mario's with the exception of Fsmash.

Luigi's Nair comes out on Frame 3 interrupting stuff while also killing them, nair. His jab is also better because the follow up he gets are far more dangerous than Marios.

People are overrating how much his speed holds him back.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Crash, a Luigi main that was the best in the MW next to YoshQ, was playing against Hilt during a smashfest. Hilt, tosses a purple at Crash, who then proceeded to chase down aforementioned Pikmin to kill it and could not catch it. Luigi gets outran by Precious the Pikmin.

Ah alright. Thanks for that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I dont think theres any character that you can realistically keep out forever.

and when luigi does get in, he gets it in.

 

[-LzR-]

MK keeps out forever against Luigi.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Metaknight doesnt count, hes always breaking the rules.

 

[-Mars-]

Luigi in the hands of a really good player is dangerous. He's one of those characters that requires you to make hard reads to be successful and the opponent has to play extra cautious.

Only Falco and Ike have better jabs than him imo and nobody has more power.

He's a solid mid-tier character.