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Official Metaknight Discussion

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TP

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OS used example before: Say for whatever reason attendance will raise dramatically if ganondorf is banned from play. In that case, OS says we should ban ganondorf just to get more players. Does you even see how wrong that is?
No I do not. This is OUR GAME. We can do whatever the hell we want with it. We are a community of a couple thousand people who all play this game according to rules we agree on. We don't have to have a reason for banning that makes sense to other communities. Who cares what they think? If taking this action can increase turnout, then it should be done. I'd rather be in a large community that is looked down upon by others than be in the Cool People Club with 10 members who all circle jerk to how awesome they are.
 

Kewkky

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You know what I hate? When people come here and pretty much only say "who cares about Brawl? Melee's better"...

Melee might be better, but that doesn't make it any more or less fun for people. I like it and I recognize it as a better game, but I wouldn't play it competitively. None of the characters 'click' for me like ZSS and Kirby did, so I just don't find it fun... I would greatly appreciate it if the Melee community members would step out of the debate, or at least stop with the comments. It doesn't even have to do anything with MK other than the fact that if Brawl dies, Melee will still be alive.

Also, some of you people fail to realize that players quitting after an official statement is obviously going to happen (as it did last MK debate). So, we're gonna lose some players... But guess what? There's a word in our language called "stabilize", which will have some sort of impact on how we view the game as soon as the decision is made. Just wait it out and stop being so superficial.
 

MarKO X

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rofl @ Gannon-banning increasing tourney attendance.
yes i understand the point, but do u c wut i did?

@kewkky: if certain ppl pressure certain TOs to allow a certain character even tho said certain character is banned, then... well... you do the math.
 

Kaffei

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You know what I hate? When people come here and pretty much only say "who cares about Brawl? Melee's better"...

Melee might be better, but that doesn't make it any more or less fun for people. I like it and I recognize it as a better game, but I wouldn't play it competitively. None of the characters 'click' for me like ZSS and Kirby did, so I just don't find it fun... I would greatly appreciate it if the Melee community members would step out of the debate, or at least stop with the comments. It doesn't even have to do anything with MK other than the fact that if Brawl dies, Melee will still be alive.

Also, some of you people fail to realize that players quitting after an official statement is obviously going to happen (as it did last MK debate). So, we're gonna lose some players... But guess what? There's a word in our language called "stabilize", which will have some sort of impact on how we view the game as soon as the decision is made. Just wait it out and stop being so superficial.
I could NOT have put this any better.
 

Masmasher@

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No I do not. This is OUR GAME. We can do whatever the hell we want with it. We are a community of a couple thousand people who all play this game according to rules we agree on. We don't have to have a reason for banning that makes sense to other communities. Who cares what they think? If taking this action can increase turnout, then it should be done. I'd rather be in a large community that is looked down upon by others than be in the Cool People Club with 10 members who all circle jerk to how awesome they are.
...

Your right
It shouldnt be about looking cool to others. I have agreed with that everytime this subject has been brought up.
But...
It is about preserving competition. the criteria of previous games works with others not to be considered a "true" or "good" fighting game but a competitive one..
why is that so hard to understand. everyone uses who they use and can play and fight each other on equal footing removing a piece of the game because you "want to" is wrong it devalues competition and turns it into who has the bigger post sign. work with what you have to win. do you not realize that banning because you want to is the equvilant of going over you friends house to play tekken, your friend saying "i dont like jin dont play as him"
banning can be done but it should be to preserve compeition not because of whining. giving into whining is destroying the very essence of what a fighting game is. which is what smash is. or strived to be after all the years of warping it to fit a image of standard vs action 1 on 1.
 

Raziek

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the crteria has to come from both sides. you have to collaborate. build from history. if you were trying to ban someone and had criteria that easily favored towards ban then of course i would look at you sideways. imput from both sides is needed. You also need to look back on history of characters being banned and build from associating. yes this is a different game but essentially its still a fighting game.
Do you think that nowhere in this 361 page thread the two sides have tried to collaborate to try to produce criteria?! IT WON'T HAPPEN. It's a pipe dream. There never has and never will be a criteria that both sides will agree on because it will inevitably favor one side or the other.

You clearly haven't read enough of this topic to know that this whole **** time pro-ban and anti-ban have been screaming at each other "Criteria this! Criteria that!" Then anyone who feels like derailing the whole **** thing comes in and goes, "Hey guys......


SUBJECTIVE

and the whole thing goes to ****. I'm sorry, but no matter how you look at it, there will never be a criteria established. If we had established one at the very start of the game, before any problems became apparent, maybe.

It's impossible.
 

Kaffei

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I think this conversation just went from "how2dealwiththeballofgay" to "omg the way u argue is wrong".

-_- At this rate we are going to get nowhere.
 

MarKO X

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^ that post made me lol and it isn't even that funny.

there's something about big, red, underlined letters.
 

PND

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The only solution to this debate is to get all the anti-banners and pro-banners together for one giant 1000+ person crew battle against eachother. Winner determines the fate of the game.
Obviously I'm joking. . . but that crew battle would be epic, no?
 
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All you do is bring up genesis and pound4 over and over again and ignore everything that doesn't support your case. Your charts are extremely biased and presented in a way it would be to sell something to people on commercials. I've already explained that I'm a huge reason for the MK dominance and the easy to pick up + everyone thinking they have to pick him up is making his numbers greater than the would be otherwise. People even go MK and lose then have MK next to their name then points added to your chart for that stupid **** which should not ever count. And what Seibrik said most of it is true. The top 4 in this game right now are me/ally/adhd/dehf

@ spelt - there are like no more sheiks or marths anymore. Jiggs is only used by Mango/Hbox. Everywhere I go in Melee I see Fox/Falco being played by everyone. Even C.falcon is more common than Marth and Sheik
Other than MK, who do you think is tourney viable
 

Kaffei

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^ that post made me lol and it isn't even that funny.

there's something about big, red, underlined letters.
Yeah, yeah, I know.

~P.Ñ.D~ said:
The only solution to this debate is to get all the anti-banners and pro-banners together for one giant 1000+ person crew battle against eachother. Winner determines the fate of the game. Obviously I'm joking. . . but that crew battle would be epic, no?
Anti ban would win..
 

Masmasher@

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Do you think that nowhere in this 361 page thread the two sides have tried to collaborate to try to produce criteria?! IT WON'T HAPPEN. It's a pipe dream. There never has and never will be a criteria that both sides will agree on because it will inevitably favor one side or the other.

You clearly haven't read enough of this topic to know that this whole **** time pro-ban and anti-ban have been screaming at each other "Criteria this! Criteria that!" Then anyone who feels like derailing the whole **** thing comes in and goes, "Hey guys......


SUBJECTIVE

and the whole thing goes to ****. I'm sorry, but no matter how you look at it, there will never be a criteria established. If we had established one at the very start of the game, before any problems became apparent, maybe.

It's impossible.
Actually in all of this 361 page thread...it hasnt happened. Ive read it all.
there are three sides. people on the anti ban side who dont want him banned. they have be rallying to defeat proban in a stop the rebellion supression type way. this is wrong. Theres the pro ban side which is basically yelling mutiny. this is also wrong. Both sides have many supporters.
then there is the adambrodeus "lets establish reasoning to make a criteria testment so we can end this" group. this group while having the best approach has the least supporters. so it gets muted by two groups that are now numb to collab and want to beat one another. this is transceding beyond simply get rid of MK. its turned into a pissing contest.
 

Kewkky

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Anti ban would win..
O yeahz? Dohoho, ma Kirby likes to eat stocks like if they were cheesecake my freind! Ill you and a winnign steak all always! :lick::psycho::laugh:

Actually in all of this 361 page thread...it hasnt happened. Ive read it all.
Geez, you really have nothing better to do, huh? I haven't even read what I've missed (well, some of it, I just skim small posts and read large ones)! D:
 

Kaffei

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O yeahz? Dohoho, ma Kirby likes to eat stocks like if they were cheesecake my freind! Ill you and a winnign steak all always! :lick::psycho::laugh:


Geez, you really have nothing better to do, huh? I haven't even read what I've missed (well, some of it, I just skim small posts and read large ones)! D:
MM NAO! :lick::lick::lick::lick::lick:
 

Kewkky

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Cant cuz i gotta go 2 slep, and my figner hurts its got a bandaid of samus :laugh:;):bee:

I beat you anyway wiht my always
On-topic: A ban criteria is too hard to do now... We gotta see the MK debate till the end, whichever decision is made, then base the one true ban criteria for future events off of that AND previously banned elements' instances.
 

Kaffei

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Cant cuz i gotta go 2 slep, and my figner hurts its got a bandaid of samus :laugh:;):bee:

I beat you anyway wiht my always
On-topic: A ban criteria is too hard to do now... We gotta see the MK debate till the end, whichever decision is made, then base the one true ban criteria for future events off of that AND previously banned elements' instances.
lol I'd lose all the MMs anyway <_<
 

Raziek

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Actually in all of this 361 page thread...it hasnt happened. Ive read it all.
there are three sides. people on the anti ban side who dont want him banned. they have be rallying to defeat proban in a stop the rebellion supression type way. this is wrong. Theres the pro ban side which is basically yelling mutiny. this is also wrong. Both sides have many supporters.
then there is the adambrodeus "lets establish reasoning to make a criteria testment so we can end this" group. this group while having the best approach has the least supporters. so it gets muted by two groups that are now numb to collab and want to beat one another. this is transceding beyond simply get rid of MK. its turned into a pissing contest.
If you missed Overswarm's GIANT post somewhere in the mid-200's where he laid it out clearly for Omni, you're dense beyond belief. Which would not surprise me, since you claim to have read the whole thing yet you're still naive enough to believe that the community can come to a consensus on an issue *gasp* they're split on.

Banning MK is a clear-cut decision, either he's banned, or he isn't.

Barring a series of completely ridiculous rules designed to limit him (this is a horrible idea), this is the only possible way a consensus can be reached:

1. The anti-bans give in, and MK is banned.
2. The pro-bans give in, Mk stays indefinitely.

Guess what?

Not Happening.

There cannot and will not ever be a consensus no matter WHAT criteria is laid out, someone will still be pissed.

/endrant.
 

Omni

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^Agreed.

Also, I tend to dislike your negative attitude, but the fact that you've played Tales of Symphonia makes me forever love you.

Raziek xoxo Omni
 

Raziek

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^Agreed.

Also, I tend to dislike your negative attitude, but the fact that you've played Tales of Symphonia makes me forever love you.

Raziek xoxo Omni
<3 Kratos bigtime. And yeah, I tend to get negative sometimes, but it's mostly due to the fact that I feel like typing with underlines, red, bolded text, and caps lock on makes me feel like my point is more strongly expressed.

And much love for ToS in general, I'm just mad disappoint in Dawn of the New World. Original is sex though. I have such a hard time playing the game through again though, because Kratos and Zelos are my two favorite characters, and it's **** near impossible for me to choose. I wish I could have both. T-T

I need to find a version of my avatar that has Kratos' judgement costume, now that I think of it.

<3 you Omni, even though we're on opposite sides of this debate.
 

Masmasher@

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If you missed Overswarm's GIANT post somewhere in the mid-200's where he laid it out clearly for Omni, you're dense beyond belief. Which would not surprise me, since you claim to have read the whole thing yet you're still naive enough to believe that the community can come to a consensus on an issue *gasp* they're split on.

Banning MK is a clear-cut decision, either he's banned, or he isn't.

Barring a series of completely ridiculous rules designed to limit him (this is a horrible idea), this is the only possible way a consensus can be reached:

1. The anti-bans give in, and MK is banned.
2. The pro-bans give in, Mk stays indefinitely.

Guess what?

Not Happening.

There cannot and will not ever be a consensus no matter WHAT criteria is laid out, someone will still be pissed.

/endrant.
Lol i forgot the other category of people that think this is point less.
I read his criteria and it translated to arbitrary facts about mk being used. "so ban him" its not even criteria that should really be considered. Especially coming from one man who heads the rally of ban mk. it doent take the other side (anti ban) into consideration, it doesnt build on past events or how critical the situation is. He doesnt care is MK is broken or overcentralizing. he doing it to make a reality of ease without mk. It has data but no structure that can stand the test of time. its based on attendance and results that arent conclusive.
As for one side being pissed. they it least had a say.
 

Raziek

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Lol i forgot the other category of people that think this is point less.
I read his criteria and it translated to arbitrary facts about mk being used. "so ban him" its not even criteria that should really be considered. Especially coming from one man who heads the rally of ban mk. it doent take the other side (anti ban) into consideration, it doesnt build on past events or how critical the situation is. He doesnt care is MK is broken or overcentralizing. he doing it to make a reality of ease without mk. It has data but no structure that can stand the test of time. its based on attendance and results that arent conclusive.
As for one side being pissed. they it least had a say.
Like, I said, you basically just said it was subjective, which is true, but this applies to all criteria, ever.

Tell you what. If you can come up with a criteria that both sides come to a consensus on that is fair, and not biased in either direction, that is not subjective, and makes everyone happy, I will give you a blowjob every day for the next 20 years. Redeemable on a daily basis or as a lump sum.

Edit: Going to sleep, someone make my day and have this resolved by morning in pro-ban's favor, kthx.
 

Tien2500

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<3 Kratos bigtime. And yeah, I tend to get negative sometimes, but it's mostly due to the fact that I feel like typing with underlines, red, bolded text, and caps lock on makes me feel like my point is more strongly expressed.

And much love for ToS in general, I'm just mad disappoint in Dawn of the New World. Original is sex though. I have such a hard time playing the game through again though, because Kratos and Zelos are my two favorite characters, and it's **** near impossible for me to choose. I wish I could have both. T-T

I need to find a version of my avatar that has Kratos' judgement costume, now that I think of it.

<3 you Omni, even though we're on opposite sides of this debate.
Dawn of the new world was awful. I have it somewhere in my room begging "daddy please play me".

Original was good. Sheena FTW.

Anyway as for Adum's suggestions... Some of them should be put into effect. I suggested earlier a sort of exit poll given to tournament goers to get there feelings on certain matters first and foremost their interest in future tournaments with MK banned vs not banned. Other suggestions he made, such as scientific match-up ratios, are overly ambitious at best and impossible at worst.
 

Overswarm

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The only solution to this debate is to get all the anti-banners and pro-banners together for one giant 1000+ person crew battle against eachother. Winner determines the fate of the game.
Obviously I'm joking. . . but that crew battle would be epic, no?
Pro-ban would lose, anti-ban has all the Metaknights.
 

PokemonMasterIRL

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So Sirlin said this and I think its pretty relevant.

Good food for thought at least.

"Anyway, back to choosing your game. Another factor is a game’s ability to hold together at high levels of play. Many games degenerate when played at high levels of skill, and many other games only appear to degenerate but actually don’t. If you choose a mature game such as chess, you can be assured of some real gameplay at high levels, but newer games are a gamble. This may seem like a minor issue now, but whether a game breaks down as you increase in skill is, in fact, a major issue. I would even say that most serious players of most games will reach a point where they feel that their game breaks down and no longer requires any real strategy. Often, this is when they have discovered some powerful tactic that seems to have no real counter, thus removing any strategic thought from the game. I would also go so far as to say that most of the time, the player will be wrong and there will exist either counters to the tactic or far better tactics, and that the game does indeed have more depth left to it. Sometimes though, there is no more depth and the player is right. Unfortunately, this looks suspiciously like the case where the player is wrong. It will take some wisdom to know whether you should continue with a degenerate game in order to discover its further depth or whether to abandon it in favor of a better game."
 

Turbo Ether

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I don't understand the reasoning behind wishing the death of a community. It's utterly despicable.

<3 Kewkky.
As fun as it would be to orchestrate or participate in the destruction of this community...

I will do something constructive.

Many characters are underdeveloped compared to MK. I'm going to work with the different character communities to help grow their metagames and help deal with MK.

I'm going to start with Diddy Kong, Pit, Zelda and Snake.

I'd also like to look into the Items Standard Play project and items in general. I'm willing to try anything that could potentially better the game.
 

etecoon

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Look at the last ban-poll and read the names of the pro-banners. How many of these guys win tourneys?
Look at the anti-ban section and read names like ADHD, Meep, Lain, Candy, Fatal, Bizkit, Gnes, MikeHaze. See the difference? These guys are good at this game.
havok, azen, bardull, chillindude, CO18, dekar, edreese, holy, hugs, istudying, jash, lee martin, ninjalink, overswarm, praxis, san, shugo, SK92, fiction, reflex, TKD, UTD zac, and warp status are some of the noteworthy people that voted YES in the fourth MK ban poll.

guess pro ban is just a bunch of scrubs that need to get better.
 
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