Official Metaknight Discussion

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As fun as it would be to orchestrate or participate in the destruction of this community...

I will do something constructive.

Many characters are underdeveloped compared to MK. I'm going to work with the different character communities to help grow their metagames and help deal with MK.

I'm going to start with Diddy Kong, Pit, Zelda and Snake.

I'm curious on the bolded. Is it because of the placings of these characters recently or something.

The ones I didn't bold I understand.

I'd also like to look into the Items Standard Play project and items in general. I'm willing to try anything that could potentially better the game.

Item play is something worth looking into.

 

[**Havok**]

That was before... I would vote No on the ban now.

 

[Omni]

havok, azen, bardull, chillindude, CO18, dekar, edreese, holy, hugs, istudying, jash, lee martin, ninjalink, overswarm, praxis, san, shugo, SK92, fiction, reflex, TKD, UTD zac, and warp status are some of the noteworthy people that voted YES in the fourth MK ban poll.

guess pro ban is just a bunch of scrubs that need to get better.

people in red are people who:
- quit
- are unknown
- main bad characters

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'm curious on the bolded. Is it because of the placings of these characters recently or something.

The ones I didn't bold I understand.



Item play is something worth looking into.

I've mained Snake since Japanese release and know a lot about him. I think there are some things that even top Snakes aren't doing. It's stuff that is potentially impractical or of little use, but it's worth looking into. The Snake community is pretty desolate.

Diddy, I think, could possibly be the "Fox" of the game. Initially considered worse than "Sheik"(MK), but more technically-demanding, and has really high potential. With further breakthroughs, who knows what could happen?

 

[rvkevin]

I'm going to start with Diddy Kong, Pit, Zelda and Snake

Add Wolf to the list.

 

[etecoon]

people in red are people who:
- quit
- are unknown
- main bad characters

some of them quit because of meta knight : p

bad characters you have a bit of a point on but no, no one I listed is "unknown", if you haven't heard of them, you are simply ignorant.

That was before... I would vote No on the ban now.

true, but there are people who voted no before that would vote yes now, it doesn't really matter in any case, my point being that this isn't a "all people who believe _____ are scrubs" issue. both sides have talented players.

 

[JRob]

And what point about using bad characters may that be?

 

[Tien2500]

Item play is something worth looking into.

I think we're more likely to ban MK that allow food on low. Items have been associated with casual play for so long it will be tough to get them back in.

 

[etecoon]

And what point about using bad characters may that be?

you're willingly walking into a gun fight with a knife if you decide to main a character like peach or ike, no one should feel any pity for you.

but then again with MK in the game that basically goes for anyone that isn't MK, snake, diddy, or falco.

 

[JRob]

You didn't really answer my question. :V

 

[salaboB]

people in red are people who:
- quit

Might be worth asking why the ones who quit did?

 

[<π]

I'm done I didn't realize just how long this has been going no where.

 

[Omni]

in melee, anyone who gets chaingrabbed by Sheik = automatically non tourny viable with the exception of a few Ganondorfs. that left.

fox, falco, marth, and sheik to rule them all!

azen and chillin quit because of sf4.
hugs quit because rob sucks (and melee is better).

 

[etecoon]

jigglerpuff to rule them all!

fixed D:10 characters

 

[salaboB]

azen and chillin quit because of sf4.

But would they have quit if they enjoyed Brawl more?

I don't know if that can actually be answered >.>

 

[-dMT-]

MK is a broken character and is clearly the best in the game.

MK also should not be banned. There is no agreed upon criteria for a character ban, and thus this is hardly even a debate. A top character is not a valid criteria for a ban alone.

Any suggestions as to how a MK ban would affect the community and results - ie. making for a more diverse high tier with multiple, interchangeable best characters - are a gathering of assumptions, predictions and dreams. There is no guarantee that a new best character will not form to simply take MK's place as the undisputed champion of Brawl. There is no guarantee this will backfire immensely, resulting in a larger gap between characters in terms of tournament viability.

Forcing the community through drastic change after change will only exhaust it, and slowly, but surely, kill it.

The game is young. Allow it to grow as it is. Perhaps in the near future, the community can unite in a better understanding of the game and agree upon criteria for bans and changes. Until then, it is too soon.

 

[TP]

Any suggestions as to how a MK ban would affect the community and results - ie. making for a more diverse high tier with multiple, interchangeable best characters - are a gathering of assumptions, predictions and dreams. There is no guarantee that a new best character will not form to simply take MK's place as the undisputed champion of Brawl. There is no guarantee this will backfire immensely, resulting in a larger gap between characters in terms of tournament viability.

This is EXACTLY why so many people are calling for a 6 month temp ban; to see if the grass is greener on the other side. What is your take on a temp ban?

 

[Kuraudo]

MK is a broken character and is clearly the best in the game.

MK also should not be banned. There is no agreed upon criteria for a character ban, and thus this is hardly even a debate. A top character is not a valid criteria for a ban alone.

Any suggestions as to how a MK ban would affect the community and results - ie. making for a more diverse high tier with multiple, interchangeable best characters - are a gathering of assumptions, predictions and dreams. There is no guarantee that a new best character will not form to simply take MK's place as the undisputed champion of Brawl. There is no guarantee this will backfire immensely, resulting in a larger gap between characters in terms of tournament viability.

Forcing the community through drastic change after change will only exhaust it, and slowly, but surely, kill it.

The game is young. Allow it to grow as it is. Perhaps in the near future, the community can unite in a better understanding of the game and agree upon criteria for bans and changes. Until then, it is too soon.

A firm and strong opinion. I can respect that (even if I want him banned), that being said.

Too soon? In the eyes of some, yes. But by the time we've gone past that point and we discover for ourselves where the metagame stands, will it be too late?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I call new TO's =]. It can be easily said that anyone who is breaking the overall rules or skewing anything can be easily replaces and rules can be places against it. I have so many idea's that can stop all of that nonsense, but now is not the time for it. I mean, there are other possibilities, but i 100% I feel where you are coming from.

We've tried, too many people are committed already.

Adumbrodeus the smash community is doomed primarily because of its own idiocy. Why do you think I gave up the giant wall of text?

You're probably right.

If you missed Overswarm's GIANT post somewhere in the mid-200's where he laid it out clearly for Omni, you're dense beyond belief. Which would not surprise me, since you claim to have read the whole thing yet you're still naive enough to believe that the community can come to a consensus on an issue *gasp* they're split on.

Banning MK is a clear-cut decision, either he's banned, or he isn't.

Barring a series of completely ridiculous rules designed to limit him (this is a horrible idea), this is the only possible way a consensus can be reached:

1. The anti-bans give in, and MK is banned.
2. The pro-bans give in, Mk stays indefinitely.

Guess what?

Not Happening.

There cannot and will not ever be a consensus no matter WHAT criteria is laid out, someone will still be pissed.

/endrant.

*sigh*

There can be a consensus about process, having a consensus about the process, and therefore the eventual criteria will reduce the impact very significantly.

Dawn of the new world was awful. I have it somewhere in my room begging "daddy please play me".

Original was good. Sheena FTW.

Anyway as for Adum's suggestions... Some of them should be put into effect. I suggested earlier a sort of exit poll given to tournament goers to get there feelings on certain matters first and foremost their interest in future tournaments with MK banned vs not banned. Other suggestions he made, such as scientific match-up ratios, are overly ambitious at best and impossible at worst.

But we haven't tried. There are a lot of smart people in this community, given the right mix, we can figure this out.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You dont gain anything from a temp ban except to smell the roses.
Also you collaborate with anti ban to make the criteria.

We gain hard data on a metagame without metaknight. Something we severely lack.

I'm probably just going to retype them in a sec seeing as digging through this thread isn't something I'm happy to do.

The bolded only have a 4:6 with MK. That doesn't make them unviable.

You can ban for diversity if the diversity is astronomically better without a character in the game.

Actually, I'd argue that the way the metagame is going, a 4/6 with MK is enough to make your character unviable. See: Marth, ROB. You have a very hard to win matchup against the best character in the game, AND you are guaranteed to face him a lot more.

How does a temporary ban establish a criteria for a ban?

Also, a temporary ban that is not issued on a national level only gives results for specific regions. That data is incomplete and thus unusable.

Only way temporary ban will work is if it replaces the status quo completely.

Again, nothing is good enough for you. >.> What are we supposed to do to gather our data, do what you're doing and force our hands? Also, you have not answered my question Omni.

So Sirlin said this and I think its pretty relevant.

Good food for thought at least.

"Anyway, back to choosing your game. Another factor is a game’s ability to hold together at high levels of play. Many games degenerate when played at high levels of skill, and many other games only appear to degenerate but actually don’t. If you choose a mature game such as chess, you can be assured of some real gameplay at high levels, but newer games are a gamble. This may seem like a minor issue now, but whether a game breaks down as you increase in skill is, in fact, a major issue. I would even say that most serious players of most games will reach a point where they feel that their game breaks down and no longer requires any real strategy. Often, this is when they have discovered some powerful tactic that seems to have no real counter, thus removing any strategic thought from the game. I would also go so far as to say that most of the time, the player will be wrong and there will exist either counters to the tactic or far better tactics, and that the game does indeed have more depth left to it. Sometimes though, there is no more depth and the player is right. Unfortunately, this looks suspiciously like the case where the player is wrong. It will take some wisdom to know whether you should continue with a degenerate game in order to discover its further depth or whether to abandon it in favor of a better game."

Well that's ********. First of all, I keep hearing Sirlin himself is Pro-ban (he told someone at Evo or something?). Second of all, maybe we want to play brawl, and not street fighter. Honestly, the interesting thing about the smash series was mentioned earlier, but wrong... The comparison was made: "WOW is the best of its kind, unlike Brawl". To an extent, Brawl is at least the second-best (or maybe third-best, dunno) of its kind. There are virtually no other games that emulate Smash's gameplay. Nothing. And if we want to play Brawl, one character that we don't like shouldn't stop more than half of us.

MK is a broken character and is clearly the best in the game.

MK also should not be banned. There is no agreed upon criteria for a character ban, and thus this is hardly even a debate. A top character is not a valid criteria for a ban alone.

Any suggestions as to how a MK ban would affect the community and results - ie. making for a more diverse high tier with multiple, interchangeable best characters - are a gathering of assumptions, predictions and dreams. There is no guarantee that a new best character will not form to simply take MK's place as the undisputed champion of Brawl. There is no guarantee this will backfire immensely, resulting in a larger gap between characters in terms of tournament viability.

Forcing the community through drastic change after change will only exhaust it, and slowly, but surely, kill it.

The game is young. Allow it to grow as it is. Perhaps in the near future, the community can unite in a better understanding of the game and agree upon criteria for bans and changes. Until then, it is too soon.

Here we go again. "There is no ban criteria, we can't ban him." Newsflash: there never will be a ban criteria unless someone just muscles their way in on the TOs. It's not possible in a debate where the lines are drawn so black and white. Also, speaking of slowly but surely killing it, what else is accused of doing this...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

in melee, anyone who gets chaingrabbed by Sheik = automatically non tourny viable with the exception of a few Ganondorfs. that left.

fox, falco, marth, and sheik to rule them all!

That was once a very serious issue, but in todays metagame its not so much. We saw axe's pikachu placing very very well at pound4 (17th i think). Part of the matter is that sheiks aren't used as much, but really you shouldn't be getting grabbed no matter who you are against. Everyone can space well enough that they won't get shield grabbed, unlike in 2003 when 99% of the time you hit a shield you got grabbed unless you're top 5 in the world lol

My biggest concern about banning MK is the fact that the metagame isn't complete. If you remove him, it could damage the metagame growth that would have been motivated by trying to top MK. You see characters dominating a game all the time, and then later in the game's cycle that character gets toppled by one of the lower characters who's metagame got pushed forward by a great player. In melee, it was first sheik. Then fox and falco. Then marth. Now puff. I wouldn't have wanted any of those characters banned just because they dominated the game for a time.

 

[Jem.]

Shiek in melee did/does pretty much nullify any character below high tier.

I just wish you guys would realize MK is beatable, and the less time spent in this thread, the more you'll realize. Everyone is stubborn, but I'd say pro-ban is more stubborn.

 

[etecoon]

no one from pro ban ever claimed MK isn't beatable...

 

[adumbrodeus]

no one from pro ban ever claimed MK isn't beatable...

Hush now, we don't want people believing that *gasp* the other side has a legitimate argument.


That might hurt their precious egos, and we wouldn't want that, now would we?

 

[Crow!]

Just wanted to call people's attention to this from a thread Omni made which proposes a new rule:

This is not a solution to a problem. This is introducing a new concept to teams that may or may not produce favorable results.

[later post]
Think of it as an alternative to the current ruleset.

So, for the record, Omni supports introducing concepts to the ruleset which may or may not produce favorable results, and having them as alternatives to the current ruleset, even if he's not sure there is a problem in the first place.

Can anyone think of a case where there is a concept which should be a supported alternative to the current ruleset which a large body of the community believes would produce favorable results?

In this case we even have a majority of the community thinking that there is a problem to fix, making it an even better idea to give serious testing to.



Also, update:

I've got character/player ranking data analyzed from Ankoku's tournament results which sheds some light on character popularity. I've finally got some free time to put that stuff together and share it this week (which was not the case in the past week and a half), so expect it sometime soon.

 

[GwJ]

The only solution to this debate is to get all the anti-banners and pro-banners together for one giant 1000+ person crew battle against eachother. Winner determines the fate of the game.

Spoiler

Obviously I'm joking. . . but that crew battle would be epic, no?

Anti-banners playing as MK to defend their cause, pro-banners playing as MK to prove a point. That'll work.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Anti-banners playing as MK to defend their cause, pro-banners playing as MK to prove a point. That'll work.

my favorite ironic statement in the thread thus far [golf clap]

if you look at it this way, then they all..um...lose...i guess? I mean they're out to prove something..but they're winning money while they're doing it.

Maybe they're doing something right?

 

[Overswarm]

Just wanted to call people's attention to this from a thread Omni made which proposes a new rule:

So, for the record, Omni supports introducing concepts to the ruleset which may or may not produce favorable results, and having them as alternatives to the current ruleset, even if he's not sure there is a problem in the first place.

Can anyone think of a case where there is a concept which should be a supported alternative to the current ruleset which a large body of the community believes would produce favorable results?

In this case we even have a majority of the community thinking that there is a problem to fix, making it an even better idea to give serious testing to.



Also, update:

I've got character/player ranking data analyzed from Ankoku's tournament results which sheds some light on character popularity. I've finally got some free time to put that stuff together and share it this week (which was not the case in the past week and a half), so expect it sometime soon.

yaaaaaaaaaaay

I love crow!

 

[adumbrodeus]

yaaaaaaaaaaay

I love crow!

I said that I'm working on the same basic thing a couple of times, and now when crow says it you go full homo for him?


You're mean, I feel unappreciated.

 

[CRASHiC]

Wow, I just noticed your name is A Dumb Broad.

and you feel unappreciated.

My women radar is going off

and by that I mean my ****.

 

[Overswarm]

You normally don't have a goal or results with your research and have seemed to be stuck on an idea that is illogical at its foundation and not only requires everyone to be robots (and not underhanded at all) during the process, but also requires people to say "let's keep MK for now" even if they don't want to only to see if he meets future arbitrary criteria... which you assume people won't step away from if it has or hasn't been met.

So yes, I love crow!

 

[SnackAttack]

My biggest concern about banning MK is the fact that the metagame isn't complete. If you remove him, it could damage the metagame growth that would have been motivated by trying to top MK. You see characters dominating a game all the time, and then later in the game's cycle that character gets toppled by one of the lower characters who's metagame got pushed forward by a great player. In melee, it was first sheik. Then fox and falco. Then marth. Now puff. I wouldn't have wanted any of those characters banned just because they dominated the game for a time.

Beautiful!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wow, I just noticed your name is A Dumb Broad.

and you feel unappreciated.

My women radar is going off

and by that I mean my ****.

See, that would've been funny if it were a reasonable manipulation of my name, inserting a letter or two or arbitrary breaks in words could work, but not both, it seems like too much of a stretch.


"A dumb bro" worked (at least the first 50 times, it kinda got old).


I'll give you points for trying though.

You normally don't have a goal or results with your research and have seemed to be stuck on an idea that is illogical at its foundation and not only requires everyone to be robots (and not underhanded at all) during the process, but also requires people to say "let's keep MK for now" even if they don't want to only to see if he meets future arbitrary criteria... which you assume people won't step away from if it has or hasn't been met.

So yes, I love crow!

It's a lot more difficult to step away from the criteria that was formed very publicly by community consensus.


And no, I'm not, the data just requires reworking or very significant manipulation to test properly.


Robots? Hell no, M2k isn't touching that s***!


Not having a goal? You are familar with the idea of falsifying the null hypothesis, right? The foundation of modern science? The very basis of that is finding something you disagree with an disproving it.


Of course for statistics, a neutral party should be handling data collection, but I'm not collecting data in the first place, am I? I'm working off an existing dataset.

 

[rathy Aro]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9583268#post9583268
An attempt at gathering some data. Will be the best data ever? probably not, but something's better than nothing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9583268#post9583268
An attempt at gathering some data. Will be the best data ever? probably not, but something's better than nothing.

No, it's not.


Self-selection bias.


Textbook case, Ann Landers polled her readers about Divorce, the majority of respondents said that they were pleased that they divorced and glad their husband was gone.


Formal statistics on the issue show just the opposite.


Hate to be a wet blanket... but nah man.

 

[Espy Rose]

See, that would've been funny if it were a reasonable manipulation of my name, inserting a letter or two or arbitrary breaks in words could work, but not both, it seems like too much of a stretch.


"A dumb bro" worked (at least the first 50 times, it kinda got old).

Way off topic, but how would you pronounce your name?
I keep thinking I'd say it like "a-dum-bro-day".
?

Oh, and I always remember you because "A dumb bro".
lol.

@Crow: Looking forward to reading more data. @_@

 

[Delvro]

Crow is the hero of Time Logic

 

[adumbrodeus]

Way off topic, but how would you pronounce your name?
I keep thinking I'd say it like "a-dum-bro-day".
?

Oh, and I always remember you because "A dumb bro".
lol.

@Crow: Looking forward to reading more data. @_@

As if it was Latin (because it is).

A-doom-bro Day-oos

Crow is the hero of Time Logic

Then how come he didn't pick up the issues with afro's methodology like we did, huh?

 

[Overswarm]

It's a lot more difficult to step away from the criteria that was formed very publicly by community consensus.

I already countered anti-ban's from last time, and I was told "that was then, this is now" and "So what?"

 

[Espy Rose]

As if it was Latin (because it is).

A-doom-bro Day-oos

God **** it.

I second guessed the "day-oos" pronunciation, and didn't expect the "doom" part to be pronounced that way.

Now I feel stupid. x___x