[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Thirdkoopa]

I wouldn't normally reply to anyone in a long post due to the status of my Computer, but since I've known you for a long time and all that jazz...

Not replying to the mother junk. If you wish to do so, I shall on request, but let me state that the AW Character and Pokey can have completely different movesets.

Sales Charts & Discussion

Sales Charts DO Mean something, but as I said, It doesn't shoe a supporting character in. Regardless...

-Mother is fine with It's two characters in brawl on a 35 roster. You get a get out of jail free card there.
-Metroid/Yoshi/F-Zero: But If you remove the Variations, The Hunters, and Dark Samus, you still have the unignorable Kamek (Sorta ignorable), Goroh, and Ridley.
-"Dixie was removed" - See, that's the main point. She's not in right now. DK Didn't have as high of a priority as other series.
-"lol, clones" Wolf and Falco are very well differented. I see what this is saying, but It's still missing how series close to it are actually getting less.
-FE Is in a good posistion, but that doesn't correspond to some of the other series.

And see: While some characters are in a "Perfect Posistion" For said game and time frame, like how Mother didn't need more than one newcomer but said newcomer was fine because he's important, other series with even more sales are getting denied even with plausible characters.

A 33% Around comparison doesn't say "Good". If he looked at these precious sales charts so much, then the roster would be pretty different. Not "Completely" Different, but pretty different.

Now I can understand how you're saying Series Popularity ties in to which one gets stuff first and all, but how does this mean he even looks at Sales Charts? Remember, Popularity in a technical way =/= Sales Charts. Anyone who knows a lot about Nintendo can base which series is more popular. If he based the choices more on Sales Charts, the supporting characters would be different. They clearly aren't asides from 4 (5 If you want to throw Mother in there) of 12 series. That's not even counting smaller/whatever series.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Pieman: Your definition of "bottom tier series" must not include Mother and Fire Emblem then (which would be surprising if we're going by sales). And Star Fox doesn't do ANYTHING special to justify Falco in Melee or Wolf in Brawl compared to Metroid or F-Zero, let alone DK or Wario. On that note, getting rid of Dixie entirely (solo Dixie) but keeping Wolf makes no sense as far as popularity/series is concerned.


Anyway, the main thing is that Sakurai doesn't look at sales and say "okay, you get X amount of characters," nor does he want only popular characters. In fact, it's pretty clear that the following two factors are the only reasons to blatantly exclude anyone:

(A) Copyright problems (notably the DK characters during Melee, but Sakurai had mentioned not including characters in Brawl due to this during GDC 08)
(B) Design issues and technical limitations (only applies if he mentions his team actually tried implementing a character but either didn't like it or it wasn't approved by the character's owner)

The obvious answer is that he'll take any character he feels like they're either popular or designed well enough to BECOME popular (the Fire Emblem characters have to be the ultimate example of this). After that, it's his own tastes and beliefs, and we only have so many clues as to how his mind works in that aspect.

Last thing I should mention: Sakurai is a game designer and an artist, not a programmer nor a businessman. This is a guy who thought the Kid Icarus GBA port was the best selling of all those ports (it was the second worst out of like 25 titles just by Japan's sales) and that the Wii wasn't capable of DLC (exact quote: "I may be mistaken here, but the Wii doesn't have a hard drive, it's a disc-based system"). Any statement he makes regarding sales or technical capabilities should be taken with a grain of salt. Or five grains, whatever.

Spoiler

You should probably ignore Koops by the way, he's mostly only interested in RPG-based series (obviously Mother in particular). For the record, most of the people who support my theory of roster balance here end up mangling it by proposing more imbalance. Turns out people are supposed to support the less-focused series rather than adding more Star Fox or whatever their favorites are.

And yes, ROB was accepted. Most of the people hating on him were mad because he "took ____'s spot." They're mostly over it by now.


@Koops: Don't take offense to any of that, but seriously, you do mangle a lot of stuff.

Gonna leave you guys with one of these:

After talking to Sakurai for over an hour, one thing is very clear: he uses the word 'I' a lot. In an age where games are made by hundreds of people though, as opposed to the old days of lone programmers in their bedrooms, surely he doesn't make all the decisions by himself? "I decide what goes in the game; nobody else." Oh, right. "But when it comes to the characters," he continues, "there's a degree of balance to getting it right. The popularity of the character is important, for instance, as is the consideration of whether the character has a unique ability that only he, she or it can bring to the game."

It's not all about positive points though. It's important to avoid any negative points that might hamper the development process. "I also have to think about if the character pulls the gameplay in a direction I don't want it to go in," he agrees "and, of course, whether there are any IP issues to get over and if it'd be too hard to get that particular fighter in the game. Dealing with the Pokémon Company, especially, is quite difficult. They have a lot of details that need to be just right before they'll agree to anything." Having written about Pokémon ourselves in the past, we know exactly what he means.

- An audience with Masahiro Sakurai, Official Nintendo Magazine

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Spoiler

You should probably ignore Koops by the way, he's mostly only interested in RPG-based series (obviously Mother in particular). For the record, most of the people who support my theory of roster balance here end up mangling it by proposing more imbalance. Turns out people are supposed to support the less-focused series rather than adding more Star Fox or whatever their favorites are.

And yes, ROB was accepted. Most of the people hating on him were mad because he "took ____'s spot." They're mostly over it by now.


@Koops: Don't take offense to any of that, but seriously, you do mangle a lot of stuff.

Just to answer that: I support your theory because It's logical to me but I just happened to tweak it around a bit to what I think. If a series, like Star Fox (Example) is close on completion AND Has said character requested, then there's no reason to just wait until smash 5/6/7/Potato, even If it isn't special. It just seems stupid to me.

That, and I just so happen to agree with a lot of plausible character stuff you do, like LoZ/Mario not needing more, which got us all into this discussion in the first place.

Moving onwards: I am an RPG Addict. I've known this. My main three wanted characters are all from RPG's. I however do have interest into how other series are represented. I just don't have as much to discuss with them because 1)We already went over them for like 20 possible pages or so. 2)There's not really much else new I can bring with them. Personally however, I'm sick of discussing Mother despite it being my favorite series in smash/Claus being my most supported character.

As for mangling; I do along with topic switching. It just happens to be a very bad habit in my discussions. So If you could Pie; Unless you have something really important, don't reply to any of the points I made about Mother since I want to keep it on-topic.

Finally: In your post, you state that some characters (Or one) May have been denied for there legal rights during Brawl. Any idea who? It really does interest me.

 

[Big-Cat]

Finally: In your post, you state that some characters (Or one) May have been denied for there legal rights during Brawl. Any idea who? It really does interest me.

Some people have guessed Geno was the character in mind. However, you could say that it was Mewtwo who was cut for that, but we might never know.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

It's actually far more likely that it was someone not even listed on the disc, probably someone with shared ownership from an unrepresented series (think Isaac or Starfy).

Sakurai gives us the exact date on when he stopped including new characters (minus Sonic of course): July 7th, 2005, the date his design document was finalized. Chances are none of the programming started until after this, which would mean everyone with a fighter folder was legally approved beforehand (which is pretty surprising for Snake, but I'm sure Kojima wasted no time getting that settled).

And I really doubt the Pokemon Company veto'd Mewtwo, they approved his Melee design and allowed him to get really far in Brawl. Everything points to Sakurai himself deciding to drop him and Roy later on when he felt he needed more time, even if he possibly ended up bringing in Wolf after that.

Spoiler

@Koops: You don't need to justify who you are or anything, I'm just telling Pieman that he should ignore you if you end up driving him up the wall with all the Mother stuff. You do have a habit of bringing it up when it's completely irrelevant though.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Spoiler

@Koops: You don't need to justify who you are or anything, I'm just telling Pieman that he should ignore you if you end up driving him up the wall with all the Mother stuff. You do have a habit of bringing it up when it's completely irrelevant though.

Yeah, I just decided to take action in my last reply to pie and delete most of the Mother stuff and only kept the relevant stuff. I'm just making my stance on characters a bit more "Clear" Since my view is, I dunno, "Very Obscure" Compared t o the popular opinion. Then again, I predicted we'd get Wolf and Lucas and saw PT As possible, so bleh.

And someone with shared copyrights yet not on the disc? Difficult. Makes me wonder. I don't know why, but as Kuma said, the words "Geno" Keep coming up in my head. However, the "Poll" That even let us know he possibly knew who geno was was AFTER He picked characters. Unrepresented series with shared Legal Rights really does question.

 

[Big-Cat]

In fact, it's pretty clear that the following two factors are the only reasons to blatantly exclude anyone:

(A) Copyright problems (notably the DK characters during Melee, but Sakurai had mentioned not including characters in Brawl due to this during GDC 08)
(B) Design issues and technical limitations (only applies if he mentions his team actually tried implementing a character but either didn't like it or it wasn't approved by the character's owner)

How were the DK characters in copyright hell? There were trophies of Dixie and K. Rool, strangely no Diddy, so there wasn't a problem with using them. Donkey Kong was still playable and just about everything DK references the Rare games and further on in Melee.

Last thing I should mention: Sakurai is a game designer and an artist, not a programmer nor a businessman. This is a guy who thought the Kid Icarus GBA port was the best selling of all those ports (it was the second worst out of like 25 titles just by Japan's sales) and that the Wii wasn't capable of DLC (exact quote: "I may be mistaken here, but the Wii doesn't have a hard drive, it's a disc-based system"). Any statement he makes regarding sales or technical capabilities should be taken with a grain of salt. Or five grains, whatever.

This worries me. Regarding the Kid Icarus thing, I'm trying to remember, but wasn't the sales thing applied to Takamaru? Pit probably got in since he seems to be an iconic retro (hopefully not for long) character, not sales for the NES GBA games.

Him not being aware of Wii being able to DLC also worried me. It almost sounds like no one communicated to him regarding the technology of the system, but I know that's not how it really was. Either way, I'm just happy Brawl DLC probably won't happen, I'd leave that to single player games.

It's actually far more likely that it was someone not even listed on the disc, probably someone with shared ownership from an unrepresented series (think Isaac or Starfy).

Sakurai gives us the exact date on when he stopped including new characters (minus Sonic of course): July 7th, 2005, the date his design document was finalized. Chances are none of the programming started until after this, which would mean everyone with a fighter folder was legally approved beforehand (which is pretty surprising for Snake, but I'm sure Kojima wasted no time getting that settled).

And I really doubt the Pokemon Company veto'd Mewtwo, they approved his Melee design and allowed him to get really far in Brawl. Everything points to Sakurai himself deciding to drop him and Roy later on when he felt he needed more time, even if he possibly ended up bringing in Wolf after that.

Them not being on the disc at all would make sense which would actually strengthen the chances that it was Geno (to his fans of course). You're also probably right regarding Mewtwo, but I have this feeling Lucario's inclusion was involved. They wanted him in instead of Mewtwo after one point, but allowed references to Mewtwo in. Of course, this is just a wild massive guess. I personally now believe what you said at the end: Roy and Mewtwo were time constraint victims.

 

[UberMario]

How were the DK characters in copyright hell?

All of the "new" characters starring in DK64 are not available for Nintendo's use as idiotic as that sounds. The only reason Tiny Kong and friends made it to the DS was because Microsoft allows Rare to produce games for the DS since there isn't a portable game system originating from Microsoft, and thus would not conflict in sales. As for the DKC series, there was enough demand in order for Rare to concede, but that appears to be their only point as they are releasing their other games on the XBox Live Arcade (sans DK64 of course).

A similar thing happened with the Mario RPG characters, although Square has been making some games for Nintendo again, which is why they were able to return in a vc release.

Square basically abandoned Nintendo after the SNES-era and has only recently returned.



Speaking of which, does the remake of Chrono Trigger for the DS improve Crono's chances of being in SSB4?

He, and several other characters from said game, have a lot of move potential.

 

[BluePeachy100]

They need to put Oscar Proud in it. Oh, Magic School Bus too.

 

[Big-Cat]

All of the "new" characters starring in DK64 are not available for Nintendo's use as idiotic as that sounds. The only reason Tiny Kong and friends made it to the DS was because Microsoft allows Rare to produce games for the DS since there isn't a portable game system originating from Microsoft, and thus would not conflict in sales.

All the DK characters from the Rare era are property of Nintendo now whether they weren't in the past or not. The whole DKR thing with Tiny and Dixie is a different thing. Banjo and Conker were replaced with them for some other reasons. Conker's a pretty obvious guess. Banjo might have been excluded since Banjo has a 360 game or something like that.

Square basically abandoned Nintendo after the SNES-era and has only recently returned.

If by recent, you mean six or so years ago, then it has been only recently. Does Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles ring a bell?

Speaking of which, does the remake of Chrono Trigger for the DS improve Crono's chances of being in SSB4?

He, and several other characters from said game, have a lot of move potential.

I don't see Crono happening, even with moveset potential. If we're to get an SE character, it will more than likely be a Final Fantasy character.

 

[UberMario]

They need to put Oscar Proud in it. Oh, Magic School Bus too.

LOL.

But seriously, Crono doesn't have that bad of a chance does he?

All the DK characters from the Rare era are property of Nintendo now whether they weren't in the past or not. The whole DKR thing with Tiny and Dixie is a different thing. Banjo and Conker were replaced with them for some other reasons. Conker's a pretty obvious guess. Banjo might have been excluded since Banjo has a 360 game or something like that.

Rare is owned by Microsoft, that's why those characters are in limbo and why Banjo wasn't in DKR. Conker was in a kiddy series before Rare went insane with his . . more daring (and last) title.

If by recent, you mean six or so years ago, then it has been only recently. Does Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles ring a bell?

Recent as in not for N64.

I don't see Crono happening, even with moveset potential. If we're to get an SE character, it will more than likely be a Final Fantasy character.

True, but I was figuring since Chrono Trigger got a re-release last year for the DS with bonus content PLUS S-E has been porting several other games to the Wii VC and DS that it improves likelihood.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

How were the DK characters in copyright hell? There were trophies of Dixie and K. Rool, strangely no Diddy, so there wasn't a problem with using them. Donkey Kong was still playable and just about everything DK references the Rare games and further on in Melee.

The whole Microsoft and Rare thing started back in 2000. At some point between then and Melee's Japanese release, Nintendo paid for full ownership over all the DKC characters and whatnot. It's very likely that Sakurai didn't want to deal with that whole mess by adding in Diddy or anyone else.

Also, remember this?

Shame too, Perfect Dark was my favorite N64 game. I'd take someone's life for a Wii version.

This worries me. Regarding the Kid Icarus thing, I'm trying to remember, but wasn't the sales thing applied to Takamaru? Pit probably got in since he seems to be an iconic retro (hopefully not for long) character, not sales for the NES GBA games.

You might be thinking of this (see how many names you recognize). Or maybe not. Pretty sure Pit would be chosen over Takamaru because he's not Japan-only.

If you're gunning for Takamaru though, there's always hope that Samurai Warriors 3 counts for something.

Him not being aware of Wii being able to DLC also worried me. It almost sounds like no one communicated to him regarding the technology of the system, but I know that's not how it really was. Either way, I'm just happy Brawl DLC probably won't happen, I'd leave that to single player games.

Nintendo in general doesn't like DLC at all, at least not the paid kind. I actually posted that bit to emphasize the fact that you can't take anything he says about technical difficulties too seriously unless he already tried it.

Spoiler

Mostly for Ridley.

Them not being on the disc at all would make sense which would actually strengthen the chances that it was Geno (to his fans of course). You're also probably right regarding Mewtwo, but I have this feeling Lucario's inclusion was involved. They wanted him in instead of Mewtwo after one point, but allowed references to Mewtwo in. Of course, this is just a wild massive guess. I personally now believe what you said at the end: Roy and Mewtwo were time constraint victims.

Considering Sakurai didn't really know all that much about Geno in his responses to fans (in what, 2006?), I doubt that's who he was talking about. At least in the 2005 context from GDC. Most people would probably see that as good news for fans of Isaac/Saki/Starfy/whoever. Those three specifically would be my best guesses for "mystery legal issues character(s)."

By the way, here's the link to the GDC 08 thing where he says all this and drops the July 7th date (this is a different source from the Destructoid one I've been posting the last couple of days). You guys may have seen this before but forgot about it.

 

[@tomic]

My wish list:

Improve online play

Improve Stage Builder

Add more Sonic characters

I concur with all but the last one.


Also, though I don't think it's very likely to happen, I think putting Cloud in the game would be a good hook for the next SSB. I can picture Nintendo showing a trailer depicting an epic Link vs. Cloud sword battle and fanboys everywhere creaming their pants as a result of witnessing such massive fanservice.

For the most part though, I think they should try to keep non-Nintendo related characters to a minimum. They might get some fan backlash if they start adding too many 3rd party characters into the mix.

Also, adding in too many characters in general would probably necessitate a good number of clone characters which people would also whine about.


I also think an implementation of a tag system might be interesting. Each player can select two characters and swap them during the match with the tap of a button (kind of like how Sheik/Zelda works just to give you an idea).

 

[Salocin Katze]

I was watching some Blazblue and Streetfighter stuff and thought of a potential direction for the development of SSB4. Since Sakurai is NOT going to lead it's potential development would the idea of a little bit more systematic combo system scare people or cause SSB4 to lose that Smash Bros. quality we all love? Let me explain further...

Instead of us basically "jury rigging" combo strings over months of playing and analysis and trying to make the best of movesets and knockback angles that were obviously not thought through at all. If the next guy to lead Smash development at Nintendo decided to create traditional systematic combos much like SF, BB, etc. Obviously DI would need to be a factor in the game since it is a staple of how Smash is played but what if you could go into training and find combo challenge tutorials like in SF4?
Example:

Enter Challenge Mode ->
It displays "Advanced Combo #1"
Jab, [crouch cancel], grab [Opponent DI down], down throw, dash, down tilt, up smash

This combo string would be controlled thing that was "inescapable" when opponent DI's down.

Bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that instead of jab cancels to grabs or grabs to smashes being a happenstance of half *** development, control these outputs much like other games do.

A lot of talk is about characters so I wanted to bring up another part of the game to diversify the discussion.
Hope I explain the idea well enough.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@Salocin Katze

As much as I pray for that to be true, what makes you say Sakurai isn't going to lead development? Did I miss something?

About what you're saying, though, it would indeed make Smash Bros. lose some of it's magic, specifically it's distinction. Smash isn't traditional, and traditional systematic combos isn't Smash. But hey, if you're interested in talking about gamplay and so forth, click the link in my sig.

Also, though I don't think it's very likely to happen, I think putting Cloud in the game would be a good hook for the next SSB. I can picture Nintendo showing a trailer depicting an epic Link vs. Cloud sword battle and fanboys everywhere creaming their pants as a result of witnessing such massive fanservice.

It would be a good hook. But the thing with Cloud is that he hasn't really appeared on a Nintendo system. Sure, there's CoM, but I'm not sure how much weight that appearance holds. It isn't his game and all.

But you know what else would be a good hook? Sora.

Think about it.

For the most part though, I think they should try to keep non-Nintendo related characters to a minimum. They might get some fan backlash if they start adding too many 3rd party characters into the mix.

Also, adding in too many characters in general would probably necessitate a good number of clone characters which people would also whine about.

Agree with the former half, but the latter, not so much. For example, there's 56 characters in MvC2. There's 62 in MK Armageddon. Many, if not all of them, are distinct from each other. If they can do it, then hey, surely SSB4 can also.

I also think an implementation of a tag system might be interesting. Each player can select two characters and swap them during the match with the tap of a button (kind of like how Sheik/Zelda works just to give you an idea).

Would indeed be interesting, pretty sure I brought that up here once or twice before. Great minds think alike, apparently.

 

[haloman800]

I really hope they don't have a ssb4. I like brawl.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

I just obliterated my last post (which was actually pretty decent) an I don't feel I can handle wasting more of my life to possibly have the same thing happen again. So in a summary

[Insert Silly Pun- NO SORA]

[Insert Thoughtful, heartfelt statements- Nintendo is Unique]

[Insert Rhetorical Statement- In an ongoing generation, Nintendo's Uniqueness is adaptive]

[Insert Interresting Observation- More

Spoiler

(Random)

people are supporting SSB4 as the year comes to a close]

[Insert 'For the sake of-' Question- Was it Sakurai's intent to represent Nintendo's finest? If so, how well was it implemented? How can it be improved in the future?]

[Insert Lame evaluation of Nintendo- 'Such a blended mesh of so many things']

[Insert thoughts of Hope and Eager intentions "It will be a fun year to evaluate the direction that Nintendo will take as the most innovative company establishes ground in this era of gaming"]

So with more than 1950 pages of information, where are we in consideration of the next smash game? How would we pinpoint our discussion as of now? (Seriously...where are we? With so many topics, I'm having trouble determining where to chime in...)

Edit
Back to characters, I think that Dixie might fare well to be a character that can switch off like Sheik but follows you around like Nana. I've "seen the light" as they say, knowing full well that many of you have already thought of all this. There shouldn't be as much wait time between the swith and unlike Nana, Dixie shouldn't be able to attack. Perhaps they can incorporate both (Together & Seperate). Complications, innovations, nevertheless, the movesets have potentional. What do you all think?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Since the "programming Issue" around Dixie would be seeing the due fly around when the active one gets hit, why not make it that they don't follow each other and to switch you have to find a spot where both are synced then use the switch. And when one dies, you don't respawn until the other dies as well.

For example: Diddy is the active while Dixie is in the backround. They both dash foward, synced, but diddy is Fsmashed away by Bowser, Dixie run as far as the edge, despite Diddy being way a head, and look around. Diddy Dies, - one stock, Dixie is the the active, but Diddy will no respawn until both are dead.

 

[Big-Cat]

So you're saying that the mechanic would work like Pokemon Trainer? That could work, but I'm not fond of having to kill yourself once just to play one or the other. There's also the sync thing you mentioned since there are matches where you might not be able to do such a thing.

 

[Pieman0920]

My apologies to Koopa and Toise, but given that its finals week, I simply don't have the time to devote to trying to continue a large debate, let alone two. I'm not going to give it up like I did last time but it may take a while for me to have the time to devote to responding to both posts.

Also I don't think Dixie's programing issue was her flying around when Diddy got hit. The Pikmin fly around when Olimar gets hit and they don't, and no one really questions that. There simply must have been something else that caused her to get cut.

 

[Salocin Katze]

Official SSB4 Discussion Thread

The Official SSB4 Discussion Thread was giving me trouble and not loading so I decided to post my idea as an indipendent thread. This post should be in that thread but it won't load so...

I was watching some Street Fighter and Blazblue videos from EVO 2k9 since EVO 2k10 was announced on SRK. It got me to thinking about the possible directions SSB4 could go in. Since Sakurai has said himself that he will not be heading the development team for SSB4 then obviously a new direction is inevitable. What if the next person to take control of the franchise decided to take control of combos instead of throwing moves in a pot and seeing what comes out.

The idea is that instead of developing the games moves on an individual basis, develop it with the intention of "combos" and strings. This idea is made clear if you are familiar with Street Fighter 4 and it's combo challenge mode. Using this as a visual aid to my idea it should be easy to follow along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiVteDPAxRA

Instead of the strings and combos of all Smash games thus far being developed by the players over months and years of play. Trying to analyse moves that have seemingly unthoughout lauch trajectories. Why not have the developers think of strings and attempt to control these outcomes.

Example:

Ryu (SF4) "Hard Trial Combo" - Focus Attack, Solar Plexus Strike, [Crouch] Hard Punch, Shoryuken, Shinku Hadoken

Mario (SSB4) "?? Trial Combo" - Jab x2, [Crouch Cancel], Grab, Pummel x2, Down Throw [Opponent DI Up], [Short Hop], Up Air, Up Air, Forward Smash

Obvoisly DI would have to be a factor, being a staple of Smash gameplay.
With as the amount of movement Smash has it would be difficult but I think it's an interesting concept. In everygame there are "jury rigged" combos that are possible but the number of them is in direct corrilation with the amount of time put into developing and controlling these inputs and outputs.

If I have not described this well enough then please tell me. It is an odd crossover concept. In writting this I do not think Smash should go in the same direction as all other fighters completely but I think feeding off of simple ideas and concepts is nothing to fear.

Please discuss.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

Even if the answer to that problem was found, I kinda doubt that the Diddy/Dixie duo will happen in the next game (same reason that Ganondorf and Toon Link didn't get big changes in Brawl). However, if the Brawl team tries again with that idea, maybe it should be Dixie/Kiddy or even Dixie/Tiny if necessary.

On an unrelated note: what does everyone think of Professor Layton? Do any of you think he would make a good addition in SSB4?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

So you're saying that the mechanic would work like Pokemon Trainer? That could work, but I'm not fond of having to kill yourself once just to play one or the other. There's also the sync thing you mentioned since there are matches where you might not be able to do such a thing.

You don't need to die in order to switch, just it would function like Popo does when Nana dies, but the "unsynced" kong, would be treated as Popo so if the controleld Kong dies, you still play out the next stock without it.

And what instances would you not be able to be synced. Syncing would work just like the Ice Climbers.

 

[Masterchef1123]

I have a question why there has to be an exact amount of characters what's wrong with adding a couple extra.
I would really like a wide variety of characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

And what instances would you not be able to be synced. Syncing would work just like the Ice Climbers.

When you said this:

Since the "programming Issue" around Dixie would be seeing the due fly around when the active one gets hit, why not make it that they don't follow each other and to switch you have to find a spot where both are synced then use the switch. And when one dies, you don't respawn until the other dies as well.

I think it's better if she follows you like the Pikmin. It'd be kind of weird, but it would also be a reference to DKC 2. At the very least, you can swap the two out at any given time unlike the Ice Climbers who are also subject to being desynced, unintentionally or not.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

My apologies to Koopa and Toise, but given that its finals week, I simply don't have the time to devote to trying to continue a large debate, let alone two. I'm not going to give it up like I did last time but it may take a while for me to have the time to devote to responding to both posts.

It's fine. I really do enjoy your stage contributions to the group, so I'll gladly wait. Finals is very understandable.

Something about music lists from earlier TK got lazy and decided not to link specific post.

I know this is from way earlier so a bit of a misquote, but I'd like to take the time to list my top most wanted tracks for a Smash 4 since nobody replied to you earlier.

1)Master Porky's Theme (Mother 3)
2)Diddy Kong Racing Boss Challenge (DKR)
3)Venus Lighthouse (Golden Sun)
4)Culex/Boss Battle Theme (Super Mario RPG/Final Fantasy 4)
5)Big Baby Bowser/Final Boss (Yoshi's Island)
6)Doopliss's Theme (Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door)
7)One Winged Angel (Final Fantasy 7)
8)Brobot Theme 1 (Super Paper Mario)
9)Dr. Wily's Stage 1
10)Fourside (Melee; Yeah I know. Taking it out the easy way. :C)

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

When you said this:

I think it's better if she follows you like the Pikmin. It'd be kind of weird, but it would also be a reference to DKC 2. At the very least, you can swap the two out at any given time unlike the Ice Climbers who are also subject to being desynced, unintentionally or not.

*for the sake of he argument, let's call Diddy the Controlled, and Dixie the "in the background" character*

Well Toise pointed out the first time this came up that if Diddy was sent flying, it would be awkward for Dixie to try and follow him, which is understandable, hence the use of syncing. So I basically count that out as means for the duo to work.

The switching would have to be more situational if they cold be desynced, otherwise it would be as awkward as the above mention. Of cours eI'm not sure if this is what you are trying to justify or not.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

I'm going to try to put a twist on what Shino was talking about, perhaps we are thinking of the same thing

Remember the way DKC played? If both members are available and one gets hit, the member on standy is switched out. If the character falls, the last member on standby assumes the main role at the last checkpoint, without the other member present. Should both characters respawn (Popo and Nana) or should one character respawn (trainer)?

Either way, both characters would maintain their own moveset, but what about sharing a moveset? The 'Totem Pole' mechanic was introduced to DKC2 where you can throw the character that is on standby. This seems as simple as a 'B' button move, but consider also that the other character can be injured (and flee) if they aren't "with you". This video might make sense of what I'm talking about. (around 1:10)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WWVcODDIZo

I think this is what you were talking about, right Shino?

The switching would have to be more situational if they cold be desynced, otherwise it would be as awkward as the above mention.

So how would this work? I think it puts a different perspective on the way that I mentioned it, but even so, Ingame Dixie follows you if you fall off a cliff, then you start off with her next round. Perhaps if Dixie is in a somewhat paralyzed state after Diddy dies (himself) to implement the same scenario of Respawn time.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Basically What I am saying is that if Diddy is being controlled and he is smashed away, Dixie will only follow (doing her dash) to the edge. If Diddy dies, the player controls Dixie. When both Kongs are together, they can be switched (imagine how the ice climbers only do specials when they are together, but apply it to switching or totem moves like you said).

If Diddy is killed while you are controlling him (the controlled character is the only one who can be hit [unless perhaps through totems like you said]) You will lose the the stock and Diddy will not respawn, and you then control Dixie without Diddy. Or vice versa.

Perhaps a long-lag move, item, or other feature could come in the form of "DK" box that could bring the fallen partner back so the team isn't separated long.

 

[Big-Cat]

Okay, I understand now. So it's kind of like Pokemon Trainer, but not at the same time. As long as the switch is fast enough, unlike Brawl with PT and Zelda, then I'm all for it. I'm fond of just having Diddy resurrecting in the background like the Pokemon Trainer or whatever so that you aren't hindered by having one dead.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Yea I thought of that after, at first the death mechanic was suppossed to actually make them a team like what the designers tried with Pt. Instead they got gried because cycling through to ge to squirtle the specific pokemon they wanted to use took too much risk. (People only used one and complained it took too long to get to him).

I'm kind of liking the idea of a DK box spawning somewhere on the field or something...

 

[Overdrive64]

I havent heard either discussed b4, but I think Travis Touchdown and Henry Hatsworth would make great characters for a new installment

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not all that much for Sir Henry *expletive deleted*, but Suda 51 has expressed interest in wanting Travis in Smash.

 

[NeverFiniteX]

Basically What I am saying is that if Diddy is being controlled and he is smashed away, Dixie will only follow (doing her dash) to the edge.

Ah but of course, thats actually pretty good, considering that we don't know if Diddy will be killed after being smashed off the edge. In the event of their disconnection (or being 'desynced') would that mean that the partner can only move within the parameter of the platform (of the stage)? Now that I think about it, I'm not so sure. Should Dixie (or Diddy) be controllable as of on stage after the main player is killed or should they respawn like normal characters?

Instead they got gried because cycling through to ge to squirtle the specific pokemon they wanted to use took too much risk. (People only used one and complained it took too long to get to him).

I was actually thinking of that some people would prefer one over the other. I wonder if it would be too complicated to have both the options available (Together or Seperate). That was actually one of my major issues for Banjo Kazooie's introduction to Brawl (before I knew about the Rare issues).

Having a random DK barrel seems a bit strange, but I can understand the applications. Perhaps it should spawn after a certain period of time (Like in DKC boss battles) or after your character gets to a certain percent.

On a side note, I seriously hope that more core elements from the Donkey Kong Universe are represented in SSB4. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't recall a single Assist from Donkey Kong. I don't think it would be to complicated to have a Kong from Jungle Beat or perhaps the all awesome, all powerful Rambi trampling all in who stand in his path.

(Another Side note, does it bother any of you that Donkey Kong has no ariel Down B? If I'm not mistaken, you can run into a ground slap in DKC1. I mean if the Butt Slam and Dk's roll are too cliche, then what else? Lol Barrel Rolling just died off after DKC1)

 

[Vyse]

The Official SSB4 Discussion Thread was giving me trouble and not loading so I decided to post my idea as an indipendent thread. This post should be in that thread but it won't load so...

I was watching some Street Fighter and Blazblue videos from EVO 2k9 since EVO 2k10 was announced on SRK. It got me to thinking about the possible directions SSB4 could go in. Since Sakurai has said himself that he will not be heading the development team for SSB4 then obviously a new direction is inevitable. What if the next person to take control of the franchise decided to take control of combos instead of throwing moves in a pot and seeing what comes out.

The idea is that instead of developing the games moves on an individual basis, develop it with the intention of "combos" and strings. This idea is made clear if you are familiar with Street Fighter 4 and it's combo challenge mode. Using this as a visual aid to my idea it should be easy to follow along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiVteDPAxRA

Instead of the strings and combos of all Smash games thus far being developed by the players over months and years of play. Trying to analyse moves that have seemingly unthoughout lauch trajectories. Why not have the developers think of strings and attempt to control these outcomes.

Example:

Ryu (SF4) "Hard Trial Combo" - Focus Attack, Solar Plexus Strike, [Crouch] Hard Punch, Shoryuken, Shinku Hadoken

Mario (SSB4) "?? Trial Combo" - Jab x2, [Crouch Cancel], Grab, Pummel x2, Down Throw [Opponent DI Up], [Short Hop], Up Air, Up Air, Forward Smash

Obvoisly DI would have to be a factor, being a staple of Smash gameplay.
With as the amount of movement Smash has it would be difficult but I think it's an interesting concept. In everygame there are "jury rigged" combos that are possible but the number of them is in direct corrilation with the amount of time put into developing and controlling these inputs and outputs.

If I have not described this well enough then please tell me. It is an odd crossover concept. In writting this I do not think Smash should go in the same direction as all other fighters completely but I think feeding off of simple ideas and concepts is nothing to fear.

Please discuss.

This post was moved in here because Salocin Katze said the page wasn't loading for him (Though I can see posts from the same user in here made today).

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Never

The One who is not being controlled, or desynced stays int he backround, so they can't be hit, and of take control of them after the controlled one dies. The partner will go to the egde of the stage, or off of it if the controlled character is within reasonable distance to the stage, so that the partner can assist in recovery again.

Example: Diddy get smashes away (again) Dixie runs to the egde, but diddy isn't killed (you are still controlleg him) and you manage to second jump to just beyond the edge. Dixie will jump down, and :sync" with Diddy allowing for recovery. The only problem I forsee is both dieing because the recovery isn;t used. (so perhaps a timer should be placed on the partner before they can be controlled, so they don't get double stocked for failed recoveries).

A side note: As I see it, Dixie will only rejoin Diddy off-stage if there is some way for them both to tecovery (not counting edge-guards or gimps)

 

[@tomic]

Suda 51 has expressed interest in wanting Travis in Smash.

This needs to happen.

That is all

 

[Justblaze647]

Roy should be an alternate costume for Marth

 

[Mowrt620]

I still think that diddy's color change that looks like dixie is good enough...

 

[Arcadenik]

I still think that diddy's color change that looks like dixie is good enough...

By this logic, Mario's purple overalls and yellow shirt palette swap that looks like Wario is good enough. We don't need Wario.