Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Calzorz]

im use to people thinking they can beat me until i play them and if i could like tht post i would gheb ! but im a diddy main now so no more snake

 

[Dre89]

How come they didn't do MUs for PT's individual pokemon?

Or will there be write-ups detailing how each pokemon does against the opponent and which pokemon should be kept out?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

y = marth, x = others

squirtle vs x: win or 0
ivy vs x+y: switch away from ivy as fast as humanly possible
zard vs x: from -3 to 0

PT vs y: -75

there you go!

 

[Dre89]

Except that some MUs like Marth or D3 Zard is better than Squirtle.

And in some MUs like DK and possibly Snake Ivy is a better option.

 

[Shaya]

The unfortunate and sad thing is, that Squirtle is a more applicable threat to Marth, even with the "one grab almost definitely means death" than Zard is.
So here's how high level Marth v PT goes:

1. GO SQUIRTLE
2. I'm ZERO PERCENT, I"M NOT DEAD YET
3. TRY TO WIN GAME
4. Oh **** I got faired to dancing bladed ONCE, I'm suddenly at death percent on a majority of stages from anywhere on the stage the next time he gra- OH GAY HE PIVOT GRABBED ME.
5. *go IVYSAUR*
6. I got fair chained till i died
7. *jumps off stage with zard*

And you'd think I was joking about Zard's predicament when he has a 5 frame usmash oos, gay mechanics on his rock smash ('2 frame counter' that combos into gay ****), second longest non-tether grab (that's 6 frames) and respectable range on things such as his ftilt and dtilt; but I'm not.

While I'm here to remain as impartial as possible -
Olimar beats Marth +2.

 

[Dre89]

I know Ivy gets virtually 0-deathed by Marth, by why is Zard worse than Squirtle?

I thought the conventional wisdom was that Zard was better because Squirtle gets thrown to tipper fmsmash and doesn't have the range to compete with Marth, whereas Zard does have a bit more range. I know Zard gets wrecked once Marth gets inside his spacing but he wrecks all the pokes when he does that.

You'd know better than me though.

 

[Shaya]

squirtle is a good character who has all the tools wario doesn't to compete against Marth but gets so overly gayed that it's a pathetic match up - if you're a better player and avoid the grab, a squirtle can manhandle any scrub marth who thinks its gg easy pickings.

Zard on the other hand gets manhandled and he doesn't have the ability to absolutely wreck Marth (other than 'oh I didn't know forward air can gimp me') in return.

Realistically I can go into a set with a similar skilled player using Charizard and not be overly worried (zard has absolutely no approach / pressure), if I'm out of practise against Squirtle I get devoured for hours (but then I ate some oranges grab the ledge for 2 minutes and its k)

Like, I don't think the general populace is aware that Squirtle probably has top 5 ftilt in the game. I honestly can't think of any ftilt that's gayer to manage for a majority of the cast. Not saying that snake/mk's ftilts aren't gayer (damage :|), but my god squirtle's ftilt almost keeps me up at night.

 

[Dre89]

I see.

That's ok, I'll just use Ivy and keep upbing the zone where Marth likes to fair.

Then I'll get dancing bladed and gimped....

 

[~ Gheb ~]

im use to people thinking they can beat me until i play them and if i could like tht post i would gheb ! but im a diddy main now so no more snake

Sorry, I can't help but lol at your attempts to pick up other characters and do well with them. You were born to play Snake, accept it son.

 

[Myollnir]

Zard is definitely better than Squirtle in the Marth MU imo. Marth can grab Squirtle quite easily and if Squirtle try to aircamp to avoid getting grabbed, Marth can just manhandle him with his awesome range. If Marth maintains a good spacing, it's nearly unplayable.
I'm not saying Zard beats Marth, because it's not the case, but he still stands a chance with his "High risk high reward" moves. Plus, he has a good range.

 

[Dre89]

Zard is also quicker across the ground and has a larger grab range, which can be helpful against Marth because they like to short hop infront of opponents alot to space with fair. I could be wrong though.

Just to nitpick, Zard has the third longest non-tether grab in the game because Ivy's grab technically isn't a tether grab, and is longer than D3's. Despite the fact that he uses his tether, it doesn't have the same mechanics as other tether grabs, and has the mechanics of regular grabs.

For tether grabs the hitbox is basically the actual tether. For Ivy the hitbox is actually beneath the vines, so you can't actually grab an opponent off the ground (unless you grab someone off the edge at stage-level).

So basically, Ivy's grab is a longer, slower, and lower version of D3's grab that doesn't a boost in range from being pivoted.

You learn something everyday.

 

[NickRiddle]

Zard is also quicker across the ground and has a larger grab range, which can be helpful against Marth because they like to short hop infront of opponents alot to space with fair. I could be wrong though.

Just to nitpick, Zard has the third longest non-tether grab in the game because Ivy's grab technically isn't a tether grab, and is longer than D3's. Despite the fact that he uses his tether, it doesn't have the same mechanics as other tether grabs, and has the mechanics of regular grabs.

For tether grabs the hitbox is basically the actual tether. For Ivy the hitbox is actually beneath the vines, so you can't actually grab an opponent off the ground (unless you grab someone off the edge at stage-level).

So basically, Ivy's grab is a longer, slower, and lower version of D3's grab that doesn't a boost in range from being pivoted.

You learn something everyday.

ZSS's tether grab also has a hitbox right in front of her for most of the grab.
That doesn't make it a non-tether grab.

 

[Dre89]

You mean infront of her hand or her tether?

Is the hitbox still basically centred around the tether though?

Either way, I wasn't the one who came up with the tether non-tether distinction, just what I read.

 

[NickRiddle]

You mean infront of her hand or her tether?

Is the hitbox still basically centred around the tether though?

Either way, I wasn't the one who came up with the tether non-tether distinction, just what I read.

Both.
Her grab has two hitboxes.

 

[Dre89]

So are you saying the tether isn't the hitbox?

My understanding is that for a tether grab the tether is largely reflective of the actual hitbox. For example Snake's ftilt has a disjointed hitbox, but his arm is still the hitbox.

Ivy's vines are barely in the actual hitbox though. Ivy's dtilt is probably a better reflection of the grab hitbox.

 

[Calvonta "Calvo" parker]

Good reads on v MU MAYBE NOW I CAN @ LEAST BEAT RYO ONCE

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fun fact, ZSS' grabs (all grabs) usually whiff Ivysaur. The dead zone is perfectly placed so that it passes just over Ivysaur's hitbox if she/he/it is in a standing position.

 

[NickRiddle]

So are you saying the tether isn't the hitbox?

My understanding is that for a tether grab the tether is largely reflective of the actual hitbox. For example Snake's ftilt has a disjointed hitbox, but his arm is still the hitbox.

Ivy's vines are barely in the actual hitbox though. Ivy's dtilt is probably a better reflection of the grab hitbox.

Does the bitbox move in relation to the vines being extended?

I'm pretty sure that is a more useful definition of a tether grab.

Also, the tether is a hitbox on her grab, but her hand also is.
I don't understand it either, I've just seen the red circles.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nick, it's that way so you aren't punished for attempting to grab someone close to you. The grab box by her hands persists after the tether part comes out, but it's pretty useless unless they happen to jump over the tether and into you at that exact frame and don't have any long range disjoints. >_>

 

[Dre89]

SMP- That's my point. Her grab hitbox is in line with her tether, whereas Ivy's isn't. I know you weren't necessarily disagreeing with me, but just reiterating my point.

Nick- I'm not sure if the hitbox extends with the tether. I know the length of the vines isn't indicative of the length of the hitbox though. Ivy's pivot grab has the same range as her standing grab, yet the vines are visibily shorter if I recall correctly.

The vines really have so little to do with Ivy's grab. The only relevance they have is justifying making it tether-length, but other than that there is pretty much no relation.

While I've got the ZSSes here, do you guys use your tether to attack with invincibility frames from the ledge?

 

[NickRiddle]

SMP- That's my point. Her grab hitbox is in line with her tether, whereas Ivy's isn't. I know you weren't necessarily disagreeing with me, but just reiterating my point.

Nick- I'm not sure if the hitbox extends with the tether. I know the length of the vines isn't indicative of the length of the hitbox though. Ivy's pivot grab has the same range as her standing grab, yet the vines are visibily shorter if I recall correctly.

The vines really have so little to do with Ivy's grab. The only relevance they have is justifying making it tether-length, but other than that there is pretty much no relation.

While I've got the ZSSes here, do you guys use your tether to attack with invincibility frames from the ledge?

If you normally grab the ledge you can still do invincible attacks from the ledge. Holding your tether for a little on the ledge just eats up your "I have to stay on the ledge" frames, similarly to MK doing a lagless nado. There's still lag, it's just all eaten up in his falling time.

Also, ZSS's stupidly high jump makes it really hard to do invincible aerials from the ledge. Gotta drop so low.

 

[Dre89]

But tether snapping still gives more usable iframes because you waste less of them holding the ledge correct?

I didn't really understand your post to be honest.

 

[NickRiddle]

But tether snapping still gives more usable iframes because you waste less of them holding the ledge correct?

I didn't really understand your post to be honest.

This is not true, I tested it out.
The tether gets rid of both the frames, and the invincibility.
Otherwise you'd have a good second or two of invincibility, which would make getting on-stage thoughtless once you tethered.


Okay, to explain my post...
Basically, if you get off the ledge quick enough, you retain some invincibility frames, which you can use to use an "invincible aerial" from the ledge.
The tether gets rid of the frames you are stuck on the ledge for, but it also gets rid of the invincibility associated with grabbing the ledge.

it's hard to explain...

 

[Dre89]

No I get you. Tether snapping to the edge grants you only half the iframes you would get from normally grabbing the edge.

Tethers only get 20 something iframes. I thought the advantage though was that we could release from it on like frame 3, which is alot sooner than when you normally grab the edge, thus giving us more usable iframes despite only having half the usual iframes to begin with.

 

[Calzorz]

Sorry, I can't help but lol at your attempts to pick up other characters and do well with them. You were born to play Snake, accept it son.

haha i know man its a horrible curse but my diddy will be going to a tourny in les than 2 weeks and its my 1st tourny since ages man so we will see how the placement goes or i panic and pull out the rusty snake haha

 

[NickRiddle]

No I get you. Tether snapping to the edge grants you only half the iframes you would get from normally grabbing the edge.

Tethers only get 20 something iframes. I thought the advantage though was that we could release from it on like frame 3, which is alot sooner than when you normally grab the edge, thus giving us more usable iframes despite only having half the usual iframes to begin with.

If we get more, it's not enough to be important.

Anyways... before we get infractions for off-topic... or whatever... let's stop

 

[Judo777]

Tethering gives you the same amount of usable invincibility frames as grabbing the ledge. So think about it this way. When you grab the ledge normally your character can't let go of the ledge until like frame 23 or something. So those 23 frames are invincible, then you get some more that you can use while you let go and do stuff. Using the tether eliminates those frames where you can't let go (which are invincible) therefore you lose your maximum amount of invincibility (you lose 23 frames of invincibility, but that doesn't always matter because you couldn't do anything with them anyway) but get the same invincible frames you had when you could do stuff.

 

[PMC66]

im use to people thinking they can beat me until i play them and if i could like tht post i would gheb ! but im a diddy main now so no more snake

aww why'd you quit snake your so fun to watch with him I've seen all your brawl vids vs Kasper and Anaky you guys look like so much fun to fight . I don't know the ;D smiley and that comment was me joking I'm sorry if people thought i was hyping myself up or something I wasn't trying to appear as cocky just because I have friends i play locally who can't beat me I know there are people out there who make me look like a joke in comparison.

oh and at that guy who imlied i never played at a competetive level I used to be a proffesional gamer before alot of my friends left for University and such ;-;.

Though I quite hate UK's smash scene to be honest not for the players your all fun to watch and look pro but i've been meaning to ask you or fuzzyness this but why is it you can call your tournaments London monthlies when they AREN'T IN LONDON. But in a ghost town that's known for making jam and all the tournaments take place in a Church that holds Yoga practice? Do you guys just not have the money for a colledge, an auditorium or something because i thought UK's melee scene from what i heard would have enough people going in order to suplement costs to get bigger better venues in more well known establishments and i'd think brawl would be a side event so why Tip tree communial hall? why not like university of London or somewhere like in London, then it would make sense for it to be London monthlies .

 

[zmx]

aww why'd you quit snake your so fun to watch with him I've seen all your brawl vids vs Kasper and Anaky you guys look like so much fun to fight . I don't know the ;D smiley and that comment was me joking I'm sorry if people thought i was hyping myself up or something I wasn't trying to appear as cocky just because I have friends i play locally who can't beat me I know there are people out there who make me look like a joke in comparison.

oh and at that guy who imlied i never played at a competetive level I used to be a proffesional gamer before alot of my friends left for University and such ;-;.

Though I quite hate UK's smash scene to be honest not for the players your all fun to watch and look pro but i've been meaning to ask you or fuzzyness this but why is it you can call your tournaments London monthlies when they AREN'T IN LONDON. But in a ghost town that's known for making jam and all the tournaments take place in a Church that holds Yoga practice? Do you guys just not have the money for a colledge, an auditorium or something because i thought UK's melee scene from what i heard would have enough people going in order to suplement costs to get bigger better venues in more well known establishments and i'd think brawl would be a side event so why Tip tree communial hall? why not like university of London or somewhere like in London, then it would make sense for it to be London monthlies .

I have no idea what you mean by "professional gamer" but it's irrelevant either way. The point is you probably haven't played too many good brawl players. Or at all really.

And if you tend to play local casual friends you can beat and admit you can't tell who's good and who's not from videos, then chances are you aren't in a good position to discuss MUs. Just saying.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

this thread is such garbage. all yall do is talk about talking about MUs instead of just discussing MUs

 

[PMC66]

I have no idea what you mean by "professional gamer" but it's irrelevant either way. The point is you probably haven't played too many good brawl players. Or at all really.

And if you tend to play local casual friends you can beat and admit you can't tell who's good and who's not from videos, then chances are you aren't in a good position to discuss MUs. Just saying.

a proffesional means to earn money at something gamer is playing video games I used to fit that description i admit someone who isn't a proffesional or who has never been one can be at a higher standard than the person making money at doing something.

2nd I can read what people are doing in videos, but I keep an open mind because they don't paint a 100% picture because people have different tactics for playing matchups so I don't know how they would do against me because i have completely different set of characters that to my knowledge aren't used in my region or rarely used. So my guess is everyone in these vids would possibly treat me differently in battle because I use those characters, that and I'm aware that most people of this level are capable of adapting, so i don't know how they would adapt vs me i know how my friend who's almost my level has adapted vs me but i can't comment on the adaptation aspect of people i've never played vs my characters or myself. This Brawl complete noobs can beat good players if the good players don't know how to adapt i'm not saying the game has no competetive value my point is vids only give a picture of a certain MU and against certain people.

I think anybody has a right to suggest new tactics that have never been tried just because i don't live in a accesible scene play wifi and play local friends doesn't mean I suck, I know i'll never be as good as what i would be if i did go to tournaments but whatever.

 

[zmx]

a proffesional means to earn money at something gamer is playing video games I used to fit that description i admit someone who isn't a proffesional or who has never been one can be at a higher standard than the person making money at doing something.

2nd I can read what people are doing in videos, but I keep an open mind because they don't paint a 100% picture because people have different tactics for playing matchups so I don't know how they would do against me because i have completely different set of characters that to my knowledge aren't used in my region or rarely used. So my guess is everyone in these vids would possibly treat me differently in battle because I use those characters, that and I'm aware that most people of this level are capable of adapting, so i don't know how they would adapt vs me i know how my friend who's almost my level has adapted vs me but i can't comment on the adaptation aspect of people i've never played vs my characters or myself. This Brawl complete noobs can beat good players if the good players don't know how to adapt i'm not saying the game has no competetive value my point is vids only give a picture of a certain MU and against certain people.

I think anybody has a right to suggest new tactics that have never been tried just because i don't live in a accesible scene play wifi and play local friends doesn't mean I suck, I know i'll never be as good as what i would be if i did go to tournaments but whatever.

Very, VERY few high level players are ever going to lose to Mario just because not a lot of people use him. The element of surprise won't help you that much. He's low tier for a reason. I never said you suck, but I am going to assume you've never played a decent snake just from the things you were suggesting would work.

And no a "complete" noob is never going to beat a high level player unless there was sandbagging involved. I'm not sure if you were serious about this statement.

And I never said you suck because you play wifi. I play wifi lol. When I asked if you wanted to play you Johned about Snake being too hard on wifi. Btw I'm a bit closer to you than Alberto so it might not lag as much.

And many of the top players started out in wifi or continue to play it. It's just not playing on wifi, it's playing with GOOD players on wifi that will help you.

 

[Doc King]

this thread is such garbage. all yall do is talk about talking about MUs instead of just discussing MUs

This! ^

 

[Calzorz]

aww why'd you quit snake your so fun to watch with him I've seen all your brawl vids vs Kasper and Anaky you guys look like so much fun to fight . I don't know the ;D smiley and that comment was me joking I'm sorry if people thought i was hyping myself up or something I wasn't trying to appear as cocky just because I have friends i play locally who can't beat me I know there are people out there who make me look like a joke in comparison.

oh and at that guy who imlied i never played at a competetive level I used to be a proffesional gamer before alot of my friends left for University and such ;-;.

Though I quite hate UK's smash scene to be honest not for the players your all fun to watch and look pro but i've been meaning to ask you or fuzzyness this but why is it you can call your tournaments London monthlies when they AREN'T IN LONDON. But in a ghost town that's known for making jam and all the tournaments take place in a Church that holds Yoga practice? Do you guys just not have the money for a colledge, an auditorium or something because i thought UK's melee scene from what i heard would have enough people going in order to suplement costs to get bigger better venues in more well known establishments and i'd think brawl would be a side event so why Tip tree communial hall? why not like university of London or somewhere like in London, then it would make sense for it to be London monthlies .

lol thanks but il make my diddy fun to watch and tbh i dno i live like 5 hours from london i just turn up when londoners organise a tourny haha

 

[PMC66]

^ 5 hours? where do you live please say North West England it'd be nice to meet someone new in real life :D.

and @ ZMX i know Mario sucks I use Yoshi,sonic and wolf as well though which are never used in UK other than Killerjawz using wolf in doubles and i saw Jmiller use sonic in a vid once. Tbh Mario can be a decent pocket choice he goes even enough with Diddy and Olimar, I never really had the same level of success with good characters as i did with Mario, other than Wolf who i know i use worse than my Mario anyway and Yoshi who's well Yoshi xD.

@ZMX that comment about people's skill levels was an exageration though it is possible i think for a worse player to beat a better one at certain levels of play I mean look at some characters some of them have 0 chance of winning, which is what i was reffering too that.

Oh and i apologise i wasn't Johning about playing you because your a snake that kinda came out wrong.

sheesh about two pages of me talking to people how did that happen O.o

ROFL though Mario main secondaries Yoshi,Sonic, Wolf i bet you all think i am a noob now xD

 

[Dre89]

this thread is such garbage. all yall do is talk about talking about MUs instead of just discussing MUs

All you ever do is talk about Pit and Texas.

And occassionally being drunk.


But you are right though, people should explain why they think an MU is the way it is rather than just say 'X goes Y with Z', and make some condescending mark about the MU chart.

 

[Spelt]

>MK vs Pikachu still even

Have fun with that.

 

[Dre89]

^ 5 hours? where do you live please say North West England it'd be nice to meet someone new in real life :D.

and @ ZMX i know Mario sucks I use Yoshi,sonic and wolf as well though which are never used in UK other than Killerjawz using wolf in doubles and i saw Jmiller use sonic in a vid once. Tbh Mario can be a decent pocket choice he goes even enough with Diddy and Olimar, I never really had the same level of success with good characters as i did with Mario, other than Wolf who i know i use worse than my Mario anyway and Yoshi who's well Yoshi xD.

@ZMX that comment about people's skill levels was an exageration though it is possible i think for a worse player to beat a better one at certain levels of play I mean look at some characters some of them have 0 chance of winning, which is what i was reffering too that.

Oh and i apologise i wasn't Johning about playing you because your a snake that kinda came out wrong.

sheesh about two pages of me talking to people how did that happen O.o

ROFL though Mario main secondaries Yoshi,Sonic, Wolf i bet you all think i am a noob now xD

A lesser player using a character like Mario will pretty much never win against a high level player using a high/top tier though.

 

[Calzorz]

^ 5 hours? where do you live please say North West England it'd be nice to meet someone new in real life :D.

and @ ZMX i know Mario sucks I use Yoshi,sonic and wolf as well though which are never used in UK other than Killerjawz using wolf in doubles and i saw Jmiller use sonic in a vid once. Tbh Mario can be a decent pocket choice he goes even enough with Diddy and Olimar, I never really had the same level of success with good characters as i did with Mario, other than Wolf who i know i use worse than my Mario anyway and Yoshi who's well Yoshi xD.

@ZMX that comment about people's skill levels was an exageration though it is possible i think for a worse player to beat a better one at certain levels of play I mean look at some characters some of them have 0 chance of winning, which is what i was reffering too that.

Oh and i apologise i wasn't Johning about playing you because your a snake that kinda came out wrong.

sheesh about two pages of me talking to people how did that happen O.o

ROFL though Mario main secondaries Yoshi,Sonic, Wolf i bet you all think i am a noob now xD

haha i live in scunthorpe man its near sheffield / doncaster

 

[Seagull Joe]

If Semifer (A I consider to be one of the three at the top of his current metagame) can't beat Calzorz then you are not going to beat him PMC. The things you generally say are what players who have never been to tourneys say or casual players. If you main then the likelihood of beating a top player is incredibely unlikely. Especially if they use a character that is high/top tier. It doesn't take too much effort for even a mid level / to beat a . Top play has such a small metagame because the character is so limited.

and vs are in no way even matchups...Your usual justification is similar to Doc King's except yours are even more arbitrary then his. Your usual justifications for a character winning involve incredibly unlikely scenarios like gimping with 's blaster...