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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread
- Thread starter TheZeroSuit
- Start date
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I dont think it's possible for Olimar to shieldgrab ZSS from tipper side b range. And just a random note, it's impossible for ZSS to use her pieces to her full potential online. ZSS basically sucks on wifi imo. ALL she can do is spam side b. You cant do things like uair OOS or any other teching skills. So I really wouldnt recommend discussing matchups based off of how you fought someone online. Unless you fight them offline at tourneys (meaning they are good) then you can never really have a valid argument in discussions.
Our goal in this matchup isnt to spam side b until you die or until we knock you off the stage, so it's not a spacie's fight. We want to get close to him and get him in the air since he's not the best there against us.
Please read the pages before this. We already discussed the other aspects of the matchup.
From what I've read all Olimar has as an advantage is his grab and his camping, which is still a threat but if we keep our spacing right and remember that things like our jab out prio his pikmin, we're in the clear
We beat him in the air because of our fast and stronger aerials that can also punish airdodges and can hit after whistle so he's juggle-able.
Neither of us really have the strong capability to gimp each other well.
On ground the strategy is to try get to close range ASAP by trying to find an opening with our lasers and side b, since our goal is to get him above us since that is were he is most vulnerable.
Since there appears to be more advantages than disadvantages, do we have an agreement of 6/4 ZSS Zero Suit and Oli mainers?
Our goal in this matchup isnt to spam side b until you die or until we knock you off the stage, so it's not a spacie's fight. We want to get close to him and get him in the air since he's not the best there against us.
Please read the pages before this. We already discussed the other aspects of the matchup.
From what I've read all Olimar has as an advantage is his grab and his camping, which is still a threat but if we keep our spacing right and remember that things like our jab out prio his pikmin, we're in the clear
We beat him in the air because of our fast and stronger aerials that can also punish airdodges and can hit after whistle so he's juggle-able.
Neither of us really have the strong capability to gimp each other well.
On ground the strategy is to try get to close range ASAP by trying to find an opening with our lasers and side b, since our goal is to get him above us since that is were he is most vulnerable.
Since there appears to be more advantages than disadvantages, do we have an agreement of 6/4 ZSS Zero Suit and Oli mainers?
Excellence
Smash Champion
I wasn't arguing that she can't grab the piece before Olimar can pick it up, I'm saying by leaving to retrieve one piece she leaves behind the others and commits to doing something with only that piece. Side Special does work against Zero Suit Samus' toss because it guards against the throw. Olimar tosses Pikmin faster than Zero Suit Samus can toss, pick-up and throw again. Inbetween sessions he can also pluck Pikmin. Plucking six Pikmin at once or falling below three Pikmin is pretty dangerous in my opinion and shouldn't be done often. I'm also aware that Zero Suit Samus can throw Pikmin from the air, but usually Olimar will toss Pikmin from the air which I see cancelling out.
Thanks.
>_> I've played some offline, but never any that I'd consider all that good.
How would Zero Suit Samus try to approach Olimar without Glide Tosses? I'm thinking she'd use Side Special to space, maybe Dash Attack to jab, Bairs or something of that nature.
You've got to keep in mind that Olimar's Pivot Grab is a major factor in his defenses. If you approach from the ground, you could be standing grabbed, Forward Smashed, Jabbed, or hit with Forward Tilt to get you away. Olimar's jab even hits behind him in case you try to get behind him. I'm not saying you'd just blindly run at him, but those are some of his options when trying to deal with approaches.
I totally agree. Zero Suit Samus' Up Air pisses me off and her BAir is very hard to shield grab (I think only poorly spaced ones get grabbed). Still, Olimar can also juggle and very well. I think that if Olimar becomes agressive after abusing his Side Special, he could easily Powershield Zero Suit Samus' defenses and grab her (for a kill or damage). I've seen it many times, Zero Suit Samus' defense begin to fall apart against someone who Powershields very well.
Agreed.
This is where I disagree. What you need to do against Olimar is remove his defensive options and put him in a position where his options generate more punishment than reward, that is where he is most vulnerable. If you can manage to get him against the ledge than you've eliminated not only his grab range (your tippered Side Special has more range) but his Pikmin Toss as well. However, this isn't easily done and those who can usually do it, do it from low aerial approaches (Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, and Meta Knight are examples of those who excel at this.
Since there appears to be more advantages than disadvantages, do we have an agreement of 6/4 ZSS Zero Suit and Oli mainers?
Well, reading the suit piece discussion, it seemed as if the idea was that if the suit pieces are there, ZSS will use them to hit the opponent. And as soon as she throws it/glide tosses/JCTs it/whatever, she will go and retrieve it.
....
Sometimes ZSS can just completely ignore her suit pieces. It's not like "omg, now it's over there, lemme go get it!"
It can be "sweet, I set up an opening, lemme take advantage, forget those suit parts."
....
Sometimes ZSS can just completely ignore her suit pieces. It's not like "omg, now it's over there, lemme go get it!"
It can be "sweet, I set up an opening, lemme take advantage, forget those suit parts."
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
It's the player's choice if he/she wants to use the pieces or not. I'd prefer to, might as well, they're right there in front of me.
Excellence
Smash Champion
I did overlook the fact that Zero Suit Samus could possibly overlook the armor pieces, but do they usually take the risk - is it even worth it? A well placed Whistle could easily give Olimar extra tools to use against Zero Suit.
Well, I know that some ZSS players actually throw off 2 at the beginning, then use the 3rd for offense. It's much safer.
I dunno the Oli matchup too well, so I dunno what she can do to him and all that, but I'm just stating general things.
I dunno the Oli matchup too well, so I dunno what she can do to him and all that, but I'm just stating general things.
Excellence
Smash Champion
This is something that I've seen done a lot and I find it to be a little more effective because Zero Suit Samus can more easily manage her Armor Piece. From what I've observed through matches, the pieces only disappear after being on the ground for a certain amount of time. Tossing a piece at the ground so it can bounce or tossing it into the air to greatly reduce the time placed on one piece is a lot more effective than trying to manage three, likely forgetting the times and running the risk of Olimar getting an Armor Piece.
It's fine if you don't know. Ask question, discuss, and learn.
For the record, this is what happens when you spam Pikmin Throw when ZSS has a suitpiece (second stock):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XLoRWr2iJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XLoRWr2iJk
asob4
Smash Champion
best option for olimar vs the armor is to dodge it completely or throw them off himself.
they're too dangerous to keep around and risk gettin killed by them. he's not fast enough to take full advantage of the pieces.
you guys act like once oli is in the air he is completely useless >.>
oli's air game is more than good and is quite effective. i actually recommend the oli to use fair quite a lot in this match up.
they're too dangerous to keep around and risk gettin killed by them. he's not fast enough to take full advantage of the pieces.
you guys act like once oli is in the air he is completely useless >.>
oli's air game is more than good and is quite effective. i actually recommend the oli to use fair quite a lot in this match up.
Excellence
Smash Champion
I don't think you should use this for an example. Andy G was playing really badly in this video and Snakeee was just abusing poor Olimar. Don't use our worst display as what commonly happens. :\
Purple Toss > Yellow FAir works too well.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
In matchups I never say something is impossible. I just like to say that it's harder for one character to do something and easier for the other. if things were impossible then it would be 80/20 or worse. so were saying that it's harder for Oli to avoid us in the air as it's easier for us to hit him there. You feeling me?
EDIT: Dang the pieces ****ed dem pikmin up lol. The match means nothing on wifi, Excellence. but it still displays the possible consequence of trying to combat the pieces with the little guys.
like asob said for Olimar , just do your best to avoid them. your best bet is to throw them off if you do get a hold of them since we can use them way better than you if kept on-stage.
EDIT: Dang the pieces ****ed dem pikmin up lol. The match means nothing on wifi, Excellence. but it still displays the possible consequence of trying to combat the pieces with the little guys.
like asob said for Olimar , just do your best to avoid them. your best bet is to throw them off if you do get a hold of them since we can use them way better than you if kept on-stage.
asob4
Smash Champion
Yes, he was playing badly; he was throwing Pikmin at ZSS while she had a suit piece. That's my point. Forward B is not the way you deal with ZSS when she has a suit piece.
I was.
My brother cranked the Cstick and nothing. He grabbed and nothing, he threw pikmin at me and nothing...
Only Dsmash and aerials worked.
In this match you cant use your paraleyzer much =/
asob4
Smash Champion
But thats not the point.
im just saying that you can avoid the pikmin toss and Fsmadh just by jabbing.
Fino
Smash Master
Yes, because using videos from july is a great way of proving a point?
lol, I just want to play one of you... I feel that's the best way to determine match-ups. PM me if you're interested.
~Fino
noradseven
Smash Lord
Oli hates suit pieces, he is terrible with items compared to other people, thats like a great part of your game, don't throw them off the problem is its hard to keep oli from doin the same. normally for my start I toss one up power toss the next forward then glidetoss, the third for either a clash if they picked it up or great pressure.
Yeah ZSS sucks online, you can't space properly. Oli cannot grab ZSS out of a tipped forward B while ZSS is moving backwards, even if oli powershields.
Blaster is great against Oli provided you use it definitively.
As for getting close neutral air is god level approach the problem is getting away but with AAA its not big of a deal.
Yeah ZSS sucks online, you can't space properly. Oli cannot grab ZSS out of a tipped forward B while ZSS is moving backwards, even if oli powershields.
Blaster is great against Oli provided you use it definitively.
As for getting close neutral air is god level approach the problem is getting away but with AAA its not big of a deal.
Logic fail.
I'm showing why Pikmin throw doesn't work. That's all. I'm not saying This is why ZSS always beats Olimar. I'm just proving one point with a datum that is still valid, because all of the moves that Snakeee does are no more or less feasible now than they were in July. The fact is: Pikmin Throw is useless against ZSS when she has a suit piece. The video I showed proves it.
Seriously, folks, pay attention for longer than half a second, please.
asob4
Smash Champion
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I think the jab would only be useful for this reason if you are trying to stop the pikmin camping spam cba. I dont think an Oli would just let you run up to them and hold the A button. since you said their dsmash or any other attack that was meant to be an attack and not a grab can stop it. any actual attack of his or anyone's that has knockback can stop her from doing that thing where you just hold the A button.
The challenge here for us in this matchup is GETTING to him so we could do some damage. We have to find an opening in his camping with our spacing attacks then when you see an opportunity when he's in the air from throwing the pikmin or something, we rush in there and try to get our damage in and try to get him in the air because olimar on the ground is a *****. because we're not gonna get a lot of it from mid-range.
We CAN approach him but we have to be careful WHEN we come in because he can counter us with a grab or usmash or something.
The challenge here for us in this matchup is GETTING to him so we could do some damage. We have to find an opening in his camping with our spacing attacks then when you see an opportunity when he's in the air from throwing the pikmin or something, we rush in there and try to get our damage in and try to get him in the air because olimar on the ground is a *****. because we're not gonna get a lot of it from mid-range.
We CAN approach him but we have to be careful WHEN we come in because he can counter us with a grab or usmash or something.
asob4
Smash Champion
precisely :D
Kyas
Smash Journeyman
One thing ZSS gives Olimar trouble with is being able to punish pivot grabbing. Most Olimars like pivot grabbing sh arials, but with ZSS it could mean a sweetspotted over b X_X.
That happened to me for a while before I stopped pivot grabbing ZSS.
That happened to me for a while before I stopped pivot grabbing ZSS.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
No tipper side b > his pivot grab. We're in the air so it wont grab us, but our side b will hit him. Im pretty sure Oli would be running away from us throwing pikmin and not pivot grabbing since it's risky. They always do. So does anyone else have any quarrels before we reach a conclusion?
"How would Zero Suit Samus try to approach Olimar without Glide Tosses? I'm thinking she'd use Side Special to space, maybe Dash Attack to jab, Bairs or something of that nature."
ZSS' (or my, Idk how I should talk for other people) style is using her quick moves/speed combined with her laser spacing (I use more lasers than side b) to find an opening in the opponent. then we jump on it. For me, I dont really use SH bairs that often as a pressuring move, more as a punisher instead. dash attack get shield grabbed so we wouldnt use it unless we see an opening through hitting you with our lasers or something else.
"You've got to keep in mind that Olimar's Pivot Grab is a major factor in his defenses. If you approach from the ground, you could be standing grabbed, Forward Smashed, Jabbed, or hit with Forward Tilt to get you away. Olimar's jab even hits behind him in case you try to get behind him. I'm not saying you'd just blindly run at him, but those are some of his options when trying to deal with approaches."
I dont think olimar is really able to punish a properly spaced side b, especially while camping. so we could use that. therefore his pivot grab doesnt work well against us.
"Zero Suit Samus' defense begin to fall apart against someone who Powershields very well."
True. which is why I learned NOT to be vulnerable to that by learning how to be like a Mexican jumping bean to avoid zoning and shieldgrabs. or rely on my PSing as a player and zone them myself. That's why I start going on the offensive now.
"This is where I disagree. What you need to do against Olimar is remove his defensive options and put him in a position where his options generate more punishment than reward, that is where he is most vulnerable. If you can manage to get him against the ledge than you've eliminated not only his grab range (your tippered Side Special has more range) but his Pikmin Toss as well. However, this isn't easily done and those who can usually do it, do it from low aerial approaches (Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, and Meta Knight are examples of those who excel at this. "
This is also a good thing to do. but we dont have good aerial approaches. well I guess SH bair might work in that situation but it could get punished by your usmash when predicted. plus it doesnt work like marth's or GnW which comes out just like that. we have to jump high, FF, then do it.
"How would Zero Suit Samus try to approach Olimar without Glide Tosses? I'm thinking she'd use Side Special to space, maybe Dash Attack to jab, Bairs or something of that nature."
ZSS' (or my, Idk how I should talk for other people) style is using her quick moves/speed combined with her laser spacing (I use more lasers than side b) to find an opening in the opponent. then we jump on it. For me, I dont really use SH bairs that often as a pressuring move, more as a punisher instead. dash attack get shield grabbed so we wouldnt use it unless we see an opening through hitting you with our lasers or something else.
"You've got to keep in mind that Olimar's Pivot Grab is a major factor in his defenses. If you approach from the ground, you could be standing grabbed, Forward Smashed, Jabbed, or hit with Forward Tilt to get you away. Olimar's jab even hits behind him in case you try to get behind him. I'm not saying you'd just blindly run at him, but those are some of his options when trying to deal with approaches."
I dont think olimar is really able to punish a properly spaced side b, especially while camping. so we could use that. therefore his pivot grab doesnt work well against us.
"Zero Suit Samus' defense begin to fall apart against someone who Powershields very well."
True. which is why I learned NOT to be vulnerable to that by learning how to be like a Mexican jumping bean to avoid zoning and shieldgrabs. or rely on my PSing as a player and zone them myself. That's why I start going on the offensive now.
"This is where I disagree. What you need to do against Olimar is remove his defensive options and put him in a position where his options generate more punishment than reward, that is where he is most vulnerable. If you can manage to get him against the ledge than you've eliminated not only his grab range (your tippered Side Special has more range) but his Pikmin Toss as well. However, this isn't easily done and those who can usually do it, do it from low aerial approaches (Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, and Meta Knight are examples of those who excel at this. "
This is also a good thing to do. but we dont have good aerial approaches. well I guess SH bair might work in that situation but it could get punished by your usmash when predicted. plus it doesnt work like marth's or GnW which comes out just like that. we have to jump high, FF, then do it.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
I think people are also overlooking the speed of the projectiles.
suitpieces might as well create a sonic boom, they're incredibly fast.
Also, I'm curious about this whole "jab shuts down everything" stuff. If oli shields the third hit, are you saying to just restart the jab combo? I know the theory behind interrupting grab with jab since oli's grab doesn't have grab armor frames.
suitpieces might as well create a sonic boom, they're incredibly fast.
Also, I'm curious about this whole "jab shuts down everything" stuff. If oli shields the third hit, are you saying to just restart the jab combo? I know the theory behind interrupting grab with jab since oli's grab doesn't have grab armor frames.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
It's all about timing I guess.
I don't really feel that the pieces can really make a valid arguement in discussions anymore because it has more to do with how good the PLAYER can use them and not just the characters. I mean yea some characters arent that good with them like Oli while some chars like marth (imo, fair just plain absorbs them) are hard to use them against, but for the most part idk if we should really be using it because we will always get a disagreement since everyone has fought a ZSS that cant use the pieces to their best ability then we always have to spend 2 pages explaining to people how the pieces are awesome if used right. I'm just sick of it.
@ faded. I think we should just go for whatever sends olimar upwards. but if ZSS feels pressured and has to use something that comes out in 1 frame, then I guess it should be used, but its hard to follow up since they can shield, sidestep, or roll afterwards. Can someone please test OFFLINE if Olimar can shield AND shieldgrab ZSS's 3rd hit?
I don't really feel that the pieces can really make a valid arguement in discussions anymore because it has more to do with how good the PLAYER can use them and not just the characters. I mean yea some characters arent that good with them like Oli while some chars like marth (imo, fair just plain absorbs them) are hard to use them against, but for the most part idk if we should really be using it because we will always get a disagreement since everyone has fought a ZSS that cant use the pieces to their best ability then we always have to spend 2 pages explaining to people how the pieces are awesome if used right. I'm just sick of it.
@ faded. I think we should just go for whatever sends olimar upwards. but if ZSS feels pressured and has to use something that comes out in 1 frame, then I guess it should be used, but its hard to follow up since they can shield, sidestep, or roll afterwards. Can someone please test OFFLINE if Olimar can shield AND shieldgrab ZSS's 3rd hit?
Snakeee
Smash Master
He can't if you restart the jab combo instantly
Only if he doesn't PS the third hit, like I've said.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Crap you may be right one that one. Malcolm was shieldgrabing my FIRST jab with a powershield (using Sonic). That worries me a lot because if you shield jab one at all I think it is actually very likely to be a powershield because a PS has to be within 5 frames I think which is a pretty good range (it's much easier than in Melee). This would make ZSS' first jab much less useful
So many things I keep thinking works really well or is perfectly safe with ZSS turns out to not work too well at all, it's so frustrating. I'll just keep trying to figure out what really is best though
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
It's alright Snakeee, we just gotta work around things. People can adapt to us and so can we to them. Since good players are able to shield everything, We have to bait/mindgame them to DROP their shield. I still dont think it means that we should try to refrain from H2H altogether.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Gahh so the AAA doesn't work on Olimar like you guys said, darn it I only got a chance to use it on him twice in a team match, being a powershield spammer(aka key to olimar), I'm almost surprised he didn't try, but he will figure it out soon, back to old fashion way of fighting. I can test it out tommorow or this weekend. But I was shocked to find that this worked so I bet it doesn't. I am going back to my origional statement and say its a 6-4 match in Oli's advantage. 7-3 in his advanatage if you don't dominate the first part of the game with items.Crap you may be right one that one. Malcolm was shieldgrabing my FIRST jab with a powershield (using Sonic). That worries me a lot because if you shield jab one at all I think it is actually very likely to be a powershield because a PS has to be within 5 frames I think which is a pretty good range (it's much easier than in Melee). This would make ZSS' first jab much less useful
So many things I keep thinking works really well or is perfectly safe with ZSS turns out to not work too well at all, it's so frustrating. I'll just keep trying to figure out what really is best though
And how do you use lasers in this match, seriously if you get PS you lose, the only possibility is you do a 1/2 to full charged one in the air jumping away, even doing on the edge is bad because Olimar can and will just camp you, out of its range with Over-B, but it is good for a stall, if you are going for a time-out.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
I just had someone test with me the whole jab thing.
you don't even need to powershield the third jab to shield grab it, it's got awful restart time. The only thing I found safe on block was u-air -> jab. He can't get a grab out on the u-air in time and is forced to shield the u-air and all three jabs, however, he can shieldgrab after that. Also, N-air can be shield grabbed since it has so much hitlag (even though hardly anyone uses it but me, lol).
This match-up keeps sounding tougher to me.
you don't even need to powershield the third jab to shield grab it, it's got awful restart time. The only thing I found safe on block was u-air -> jab. He can't get a grab out on the u-air in time and is forced to shield the u-air and all three jabs, however, he can shieldgrab after that. Also, N-air can be shield grabbed since it has so much hitlag (even though hardly anyone uses it but me, lol).
This match-up keeps sounding tougher to me.
