Olimar Matchup Thread

[IcyLight]

*Is a TL main* I dun think the advantage is in your favor. 50/50 I thinks. I've fought Pyronic Star's Olimar.

oh you are blue gloves too?

also, i believe TL is 55-45 oli maybe even 60-40. All you need to do is watch for his second aerial and pshield it and do wahtever you want, and we can out camp him so bad. i vs. some pretty good toon links often, so i have a pretty good idea, i could be wrong

 

[Fino]

*Is a TL main* I dun think the advantage is in your favor. 50/50 I thinks. I've fought Pyronic Star's Olimar.

After arguing it with jerm, hyro, chip, and jash... the MU was determined to be 55:45 olimar to 50:50 even.
Also, basing things off of pstar probably isn't the best thing
X:


~Fino

 

[Tin Man]

ummmmm...

when is the next AiM discussion???

 

[Noa.]

As I'm sure most of you noticed, most of the other character boards have had their regular members submit their thoughts on character matchups. This hasn't happened in the Oli boards probably since there are no SBR members on the Oli boards. Nevertheless, we should do it, even if it's just for the OP of this thread. Many Olis tend to do it anyway, so it's not too new.

Meta Knight - disadvantage
Snake - even
Wario - even
Falco - even
Diddy Kong -even
King Dedede - advantage
Marth - disadvantage
Pikachu - even
Olimar - >.>
Ice Climbers -even
R.O.B. - even
Kirby - advantage
Lucario - N/A
Zero Suit Samus - N/A
Toon Link - even
Pit - advantage
Donkey Kong - even
GaW - advantage
Peach - disadvantage
Luigi - disadvantage
Fox - advantage
Wolf - even
Sonic - advantage
Sheik - even
Bowser - advantage
Zelda - advantage
Pokémon Trainer -advantage
Ike - advantage
Lucas - advantage
Mario - advantage
Ness - even
Yoshi - advantage
Samus - advantage
Jigglypuff - advantage
Captain Falcon - advantage
Link - advantage
Ganondorf -advantage

 

[Llumys]

Mmkay. I've thought this through, and here's what I think of Olimar's match-ups.

Luigi: 35-65
Meta Knight: 40-60
Marth: 40-60
Peach: 40-60

Squirtle: 45-55
Falco: 50-50
Mr. Game & Watch: 50-50
Zero Suit Samus: 50-50
Ness: 50-50
Sheik: 50-50
Wolf: 50-50
Snake: 55-45
Diddy Kong: 55-45
Ice Climbers: 55-45
Toon Link: 55-45
Donkey Kong: 55-45
Fox: 55-45
Lucas: 55-45
Yoshi: 55-45
Jigglypuff: 55-45

Wario: 60-40
King Dedede: 60-40
Pikachu: 60-40
R.O.B.: 60-40
Kirby: 60-40
Lucario: 60-40
Pit: 60-40
Pokémon Trainer: 60-40
Charizard: 60-40
Sonic: 60-40
Mario: 60-40
Bowser: 60-40
Samus: 60-40
Link: 60-40
Ivysaur: 65-35

Captain Falcon: 70-30
Zelda: 70-30
Ike: 80-20
Ganondorf: 90-10

 

[IcyLight]

Luigi: 35-65
Meta Knight: 40-60
Marth: 40-60
Peach: 45-55

Squirtle: 45-55
Falco: 50-50
Mr. Game & Watch: 55-45
Zero Suit Samus: 55-45
Ness: 45-55
Sheik: 50-50
Wolf: 50-50
Snake: 55-45
Diddy Kong: 55-45
Ice Climbers: 55-45
Toon Link: 60-40
Donkey Kong: 55-45
Fox: 55-45
Lucas: 55-45
Yoshi: 45-55
Jigglypuff: 55-45

Wario: 60-40
King Dedede: 60-40
Pikachu: 60-40
R.O.B.: 60-40
Kirby: 55-45
Lucario: 60-40
Pit: 60-40
Pokémon Trainer: 60-40
Charizard: 65-35
Sonic: 60-40
Mario: 60-40
Bowser: 60-40
Samus: 60-40
Link: 60-40
Ivysaur: 65-35

Captain Falcon: 70-30
Zelda: 65-35
Ike: 60-40
Ganondorf: 75-35

copied from llumys, with my changes. i think with the evolution of jab canceling ike can do a lot more to oli than we originally predict. If they play smart and don't fall into our shield like the typical ike. Also, on ganon, it seems if he gets a choke off he can do a lot to oli cause of our mobility being bad, but we still **** him otherwise. I also believe that we have 60-40 on TL, as i vs. really good ones often and have little trouble against them

 

[Llumys]

Ike will never get close enough to jab.

 

[DanGR]

These are my current thoughts:
I'll put in black all of the characters I don't feel very strongly about.

Meta Knight - disadvantage
Snake - even
Wario - even or disadvantage
Falco - even or disadvantage.
Diddy Kong - even or disadvantage
King Dedede - even
Marth - disadvantage
Pikachu - advantage
Red Suited Olimar - disadvantage
Ice Climbers - disadvantage
R.O.B. - advantage
Kirby - advantage
Lucario - even
Zero Suit Samus - disadvantage
Toon Link - advantage or even
Pit - advantage
Donkey Kong - even
GaW - even
Luigi - disadvantage
Fox - advantage
Wolf - even
Sonic - advantage
Sheik - <___< Not sure.
Bowser - advantage
Zelda - Lol
Pokémon Trainer - even
Squirtle - disadvantage
Charizard - advantage
Ike - advantage
Lucas - advantage
Mario - advantage
Ness - even
Yoshi - even or disadvantage
Samus - advantage
Jigglypuff - advantage
Captain Falcon - advantage
Link - advantage
Ganondorf - advantage

My opinions change often. >_>

 

[Noa.]

The matchups were meant to be listed more like this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251274

Or like how I posted them. >.>

Just to get a general idea on how the Oli boards view matchups. After that, we should decide specific ratios. Doesn't really matter, but I like to keep it simple anyway.

Why do you think Icies is so bad Dan? Doesn't seem to be horrible. Apart from Icies and the lean towards a lot of top tiers being disadvantaged, we have similar opinions for the most part.

 

[DanGR]

It's really simple.

A. You're forced to jump over the ICs to get past the desynched blizzard, which involves leaving the ground.
B. You have no aerials that are safe upon shieldblock from a grab.

gg

 

[Noa.]

Ledgecamp them. Throw pikmin and uair them when they get near the ledge

And there's Fino's post:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8552675&postcount=869
Basically, don't let them desynch.

 

[DanGR]

Planking is banned at nearly every tournament that matters. There's no point in coming up with ratios for a tournament environment that has it legal.

Telling people to keep the ICs from desynching is like telling people to hit MK out of his tornado during the startup every time. It's... not happening. You may be able to do it some, but you're risking getting grabbed if you're too aggressive. And all it takes it one desynch to screw you over.

edit: I'll change my ratios to even, disadvantage, and advantage.

 

[Llumys]

Eh, Dan.

I can't see why you think Olimar is that bad.

 

[DanGR]

That bad? What do you mean?

I think he's good, just not great like everyone seems to think.

 

[Noa.]

Ledgecamping is not planking. Planking is an attempt to stall out the clock. Oli's only using it to throw projectiles safely. And we use the rules presented by the SBR, not the common tournies when discussing the metagame, IMO. The SBR rules have planking banned.

In regards to tournaments, I'll check the rules for the tournaments in the tournament listings section.

Pound 4: Planking is legal period.
Mass Madness 17: Stalling is banned, which is not the purpose of ledgecamping. As long as you don't try to run out the clock, it's fine.
Road to Viridian City makes no mention of planking, so it's assumed legal.
No Koast has stalling banned, but again that does not include ledgecamping.

Which tournaments ban planking? And even then, ledgecamping isn't planking.

Also, unlike MK's tornado, Icies desynched blizzard takes a second, and it's easy for us to mess them up before they get it going. One hard to deal with approach doesn't make it a horrible matchup. Even with their infinite.

And how about just jumping over the blizzard and grabbing nana when you land? They can beat that by just running in and grabbing, but in that case they can't shieldgrab an aerial.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alright guys, what hours are you all free? We're gonna be doing matchup discussions in aim chats soon, probably some day next week. I'm free every day except Saturdays (tournaments), sunday morning (church) and thursday evening (church again lol).

When is everyone else free.

People I wan't in on the matchup discussions for sure:
DanGR, Fino, Pyronic Star, Dabuz, Draconoa, Llumys, Rich Brown, and myself

Others that I would like in on it:
BlackWaltzX, IcyLight, Weruop, Dotcom, Zori

Anyone is welcome though, those are just the main Olimars that I would like opinions from. If you would also like your input to be heard, let me know.

 

[Noa.]

I'm free every weekday from about 3:30 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. Exceptions on Wednesday on which from 6:30 to 9:30 I'm busy. And Thursdays in which I'm busy until 5:30.

I would rather not prefer Friday since I usually end up doing something those days. Same with Saturday.

I'm free Sunday afternoon from like 1:30 until late. Not this upcoming Sunday though. Going to a tourney.

 

[Fino]

I just got another real job... so my free time is limited and sporadic. Hilt, you know that whenever I have down time I'm on aim anyways. If you're planning a specific time just let me know with some time in advance to try and make it.


~Fino

 

[Fino]

Planking is banned at nearly every tournament that matters. There's no point in coming up with ratios for a tournament environment that has it legal.

Telling people to keep the ICs from desynching is like telling people to hit MK out of his tornado during the startup every time. It's... not happening. You may be able to do it some, but you're risking getting grabbed if you're too aggressive. And all it takes it one desynch to screw you over.

edit: I'll change my ratios to even, disadvantage, and advantage.

A move that takes one button to start up and is BEST used when under pressure =/= a tactic that takes several inputs to get started and can only be done effectively when started from a far away / safe distance.
I'm sorry dan, but that was almost as bad as hilt trying to tell me metaknights dair is like luigi's nair.


~Fino

 

[DanGR]

Ledgecamping is not planking. Planking is an attempt to stall out the clock. Oli's only using it to throw projectiles safely. And we use the rules presented by the SBR, not the common tournies when discussing the metagame, IMO. The SBR rules have planking banned.

I don't know what tournaments you attend, but every tournament I've been to that has banned planking has banned it under the stalling rule.

Also, why aren't we talking about the tournaments that people go to? The metagame is mostly comprised of players that DON'T follow the SBR recommended ruleset in the first place. It doesn't make sense not to account for those tournaments and the matchups in them. The SBR is not the end all authority on the rules or smash in general- not in the slightest. They're simply a group of generally good and intelligent players that chat in their own subforum, just as we are now, and happen to make their own tier list and ruleset, just as any regional tournament thread will make their own rulesets.

In regards to tournaments, I'll check the rules for the tournaments in the tournament listings section.

Pound 4: Planking is legal period.
Mass Madness 17: Stalling is banned, which is not the purpose of ledgecamping. As long as you don't try to run out the clock, it's fine.
Road to Viridian City makes no mention of planking, so it's assumed legal.
No Koast has stalling banned, but again that does not include ledgecamping.

Which tournaments ban planking? And even then, ledgecamping isn't planking.

Usually tournaments will ban planking under the stalling rule, or at least all of the ones I've heard of that ban it. Sometimes they'll specifically state that planking is banned if it has been a problem in the past or if there's evidence that it may become one in the future.

Which tournaments ban planking? How about Clash of Titans? Genesis? SNES? Many tournaments that ban stalling? I'm not going to go through the tournament listings to find them. There are many, many tournaments all over the nation that ban it- including big national tournaments.

Also, unlike MK's tornado, Icies desynched blizzard takes a second, and it's easy for us to mess them up before they get it going. One hard to deal with approach doesn't make it a horrible matchup. Even with their infinite.

And how about just jumping over the blizzard and grabbing nana when you land? They can beat that by just running in and grabbing, but in that case they can't shieldgrab an aerial.

The ICs desynchs can take split seconds. There's a billion of them- some of which require very quick, subtle movements like dashing one direction, dashing the other, and using an ice block. That particular standing desynch takes about the same time as the tornado takes to get priority (which is determined by how much you the MK player presses the B button). It's really quick.

Every time the ICs hit someone with an attack, it gives them an opportunity to desynch. Every ftilt, dtilt, jab combo, successful use of blizzard give them a window to get a desynch. Every time they dash back and you don't run forward immediately they can ice block after the fox trot, and you can't stop it. They've even got a desynch that begins before the match even starts! How do you stop a character from doing that?

One move approaches and defenses can and do make some matchups horrible. A lot of Olimar's really good matchups are much better because of his grab. Meta Knight's dair combined with his jumps make dair camping an extremely good defensive zoning tool against many characters like Falco. Which reminds me... how about Falco's lasers? They make approaching with DDD pretty awful. How about the tornado against R.O.B.? There are several single moves that help determine matchups. I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

Alright guys, what hours are you all free? We're gonna be doing matchup discussions in aim chats soon, probably some day next week. I'm free every day except Saturdays (tournaments), sunday morning (church) and thursday evening (church again lol).

When is everyone else free.

People I wan't in on the matchup discussions for sure:
DanGR, Fino, Pyronic Star, Dabuz, Draconoa, Llumys, Rich Brown, and myself

Others that I would like in on it:
BlackWaltzX, IcyLight, Weruop, Dotcom, Zori

Anyone is welcome though, those are just the main Olimars that I would like opinions from. If you would also like your input to be heard, let me know.

I'm usually free Fridays from about 3:00pm onwards, depending on if I'm going to a tourney or not, or if there's something else going on. Most mondays and thursdays at about the same time are good for me too.

A move that takes one button to start up and is BEST used when under pressure =/= a tactic that takes several inputs to get started and can only be done effectively when started from a far away / safe distance.
I'm sorry dan, but that was almost as bad as hilt trying to tell me metaknights dair is like luigi's nair.


~Fino

You're totally not getting the point. It's that the ICs desynchs can be used just about anywhere. As long as the two (nana and popo) are together it's really easy. There's a thousand different desynchs and you're not going to pressure the ICs enough into not using them.

 

[Noa.]

I don't know what tournaments you attend, but every tournament I've been to that has banned planking has banned it under the stalling rule.

Also, why aren't we talking about the tournaments that people go to? The metagame is mostly comprised of players that DON'T follow the SBR recommended ruleset in the first place. It doesn't make sense not to account for those tournaments and the matchups in them. The SBR is not the end all authority on the rules or smash in general- not in the slightest. They're simply a group of generally good and intelligent players that chat in their own subforum, just as we are now, and happen to make their own tier list and ruleset, just as any regional tournament thread will make their own rulesets.

Usually tournaments will ban planking under the stalling rule, or at least all of the ones I've heard of that ban it. Sometimes they'll specifically state that planking is banned if it has been a problem in the past or if there's evidence that it may become one in the future.

Yes, every tournament does have stalling banned. But whether or not planking is considered stalling has to be taken by individual tournaments. Planking may or may not make the game unplayable, and most people disagree on it.

But that doesn't matter. We're not planking here. We're ledgecamping. It's not an attempt to stall out the clock from the ledge, but to camp and damage the opponent from the ledge. Most planking rules only activate when the timer runs out anyway. If your ledgecamping that shouldn't happen.
Which tournaments ban planking? How about Clash of Titans? Genesis? SNES? Many tournaments that ban stalling? I'm not going to go through the tournament listings to find them. There are many, many tournaments all over the nation that ban it- including big national tournaments.

The ICs desynchs can take split seconds. There's a billion of them- some of which require very quick, subtle movements like dashing one direction, dashing the other, and using an ice block. That particular standing desynch takes about the same time as the tornado takes to get priority (which is determined by how much you the MK player presses the B button). It's really quick.

Every time the ICs hit someone with an attack, it gives them an opportunity to desynch. Every ftilt, dtilt, jab combo, successful use of blizzard give them a window to get a desynch. Every time they dash back and you don't run forward immediately they can ice block after the fox trot, and you can't stop it. They've even got a desynch that begins before the match even starts! How do you stop a character from doing that?

Do the desynched blizzards start off immediately? It takes a little bit to first desycnh, and then they have to start the blizzards. There's more than enough time to stop them from getting to that point. Just stay on top of them at mid range to stay safe and not let them desynch.

One move approaches and defenses can and do make some matchups horrible. A lot of Olimar's really good matchups are much better because of his grab. Meta Knight's dair combined with his jumps make dair camping an extremely good defensive zoning tool against many characters like Falco. Which reminds me... how about Falco's lasers? They make approaching with DDD pretty awful. How about the tornado against R.O.B.? There are several single moves that help determine matchups. I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

With the exception of infinites that are easy to land directly, one move does not make a matchup horrible. It's a combination of bad attributes that lead it to be a horrid matchup. Dair camping requires MK to get the lead, in which he has the traits to do so. Also, wouldn't dair camping be pushing in on whether or not MK's stalling? If Falco only had his lasers then DDD wouldn't be so good for him. What makes it a hard matchup for DDD is the lasers, the phantasm, and the ridiculous close range gamet that Falco has which DDD can't compete with. Falco also negates DDD's strentghts like not being chaingrabbable and having a very risky recovery against Falco. All of these elements, and not just the lasers make it a bad matchup. ROB is too slow to handle MK. MK decimates ROB because in nearly every situation MK wins. The tornado helps, but it's mostly ROB's lag that makes it a bad matchup not the tornado.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Oh yeah, I should probably post this. I'll look through everyone's opinions when I've had sleep. And can take it all in.

Advantage = 60:40 or better
Even = 55:45 - 45:55
Disadvantage = 40:60 or worse

Meta Knight - disadvantage
Snake - even
Wario - even
Falco - even
Diddy Kong - even
King Dedede - advantage
Marth - disadvantage
Pikachu - even
Olimar - :D
Ice Climbers -even
R.O.B. - even
Kirby - even
Lucario - even
Zero Suit Samus - even
Toon Link - advantage
Pit - advantage
Donkey Kong - even
GaW - even
Peach - disadvantage
Luigi - disadvantage
Fox - advantage
Wolf - even
Sonic -advantage
Sheik - even
Bowser - advantage
Zelda - advantage
Pokémon Trainer -advantage
Ike - advantage
Lucas - even
Mario - advantage
Ness - even
Yoshi - even
Samus - advantage
Jigglypuff - advantage
Captain Falcon - advantage
Link - advantage
Ganondorf -advantage

 

[Tin Man]

These are my current thoughts

black = characters I don't feel very strongly about.

Advantage = 60:40 or better
Even = 55:45 - 45:55
Disadvantage = 40:60 or worse

Meta Knight - disadvantage
Snake - advantage
Wario - disadvantage
Falco - disadvantage.
Diddy Kong - even
King Dedede - advantagen
Marth - disadvantage
Pikachu - even
Negrolimar - disadvantage
Ice Climbers - disadvantage
R.O.B. - advantage
Kirby - even
Lucario - advantage
Zero Suit Samus - disadvantage
Toon Link - advantage
Pit - advantage
Donkey Kong - advantage
GaW - even
Luigi - disadvantage
Fox - advantage
Wolf - even
Sonic - advantage
Sheik - advantage
Bowser - advantage
Zelda - advantage
Pokémon Trainer - even
Squirtle - disadvantage
Charizard - advantage
Ivysaur - advantage
Ike - advantage
Lucas - advantage
Mario - advantage
Ness - advantage
Yoshi - even
Samus - advantage
Jigglypuff - advantage
Captain Falcon - advantage
Link - advantage
Ganondorf - advantage

So thats my 2 cents

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Ice climbers disadvantage? Explain please we out range them by a hell lot and a good oli main wouldnt get grab easilly.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

*sighs* play meep... you stop asking *sighs*

 

[DtJ Hilt]

We will be doing a large matchup discussion next tuesday from about 3:00 to 6:00 EST. For those interested let me know.

 

[Llumys]

I am. (:

Details?

 

[Noa.]

It's on aim.

 

[TheMike]

****. I don;t have aim, otherwise(MSN Messenger is my only way to talk to people >.<) i would help with what i could ;]

 

[Llumys]

Would should definitely do a general update of the OP.

I'm sure there's people who just read the first post of this thread.

 

[Tin Man]

We will be doing a large matchup discussion next tuesday from about 3:00 to 6:00 EST. For those interested let me know.

I'm extremely interested, this fits my university (college for you Americans) schedule perfectly!!!

 

[Fino]

Meta Knight - advantage
Snake - advantage
Wario - advantage
Falco - advantage
Diddy Kong - advantage
King Dedede - advantage
Marth - disadvantage
Pikachu - advantage
Olimar - advantage
Ice Climbers -advantage
R.O.B. - advantage
Kirby - advantage
Lucario - advantage
Zero Suit Samus - advantage
Toon Link - advantage
Pit - advantage
Donkey Kong - advantage
GaW - advantage
Peach - advantage
Luigi - advantage
Fox - advantage
Wolf - advantage
Sonic -advantage
Sheik - advantage
Bowser - advantage
Zelda - advantage
Pokémon Trainer -advantage
Ike - advantage
Lucas - advantage
Mario - advantage
Ness - advantage
Yoshi - advantage
Samus - advantage
Jigglypuff - advantage
Captain Falcon - advantage
Link - advantage
Ganondorf -advantage

+1

 

[Noa.]

I'm extremely interested, this fits my university (college for you Americans) schedule perfectly!!!

We go to universities too. >.>

Meta Knight - advantage
Snake - advantage
Wario - advantage
Falco - advantage
Diddy Kong - advantage
King Dedede - advantage
Marth - disadvantage
Pikachu - advantage
Olimar - advantage
Ice Climbers -advantage
R.O.B. - advantage
Kirby - advantage
Lucario - advantage
Zero Suit Samus - advantage
Toon Link - advantage
Pit - advantage
Donkey Kong - advantage
GaW - advantage
Peach - advantage
Luigi - advantage
Fox - advantage
Wolf - advantage
Sonic -advantage
Sheik - advantage
Bowser - advantage
Zelda - advantage
Pokémon Trainer -advantage
Ike - advantage
Lucas - even
Mario - advantage
Ness - advantage
Yoshi - advantage
Samus - advantage
Jigglypuff - advantage
Captain Falcon - advantage
Link - advantage
Ganondorf -advantage

+1

Lucas is even?

 

[Fino]

Lucas is even?

Missed one ^^;


~Fino

 

[TheMike]

I'm here to invite u guys to re-discuss the ROB vs Oli Match-up on the ROBoards:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8592327#post8592327

 

[Llumys]

I posted what I can. I don't have much offline experience against any great R.O.B.'s, so I can't contribute much.

 

[TheMike]

I posted what I can. I don't have much offline experience against any great R.O.B.'s, so I can't contribute much.

Anything coming from the Olimar Boards is nice for the discuss. Thanks ^^

 

[Llumys]

You're welcome. I added some more information.

 

[Tin Man]

I posted what I can. I don't have much offline experience against any great R.O.B.'s, so I can't contribute much.

ditto, I main both characters though so I'll help out as much as I can

 

[IcyLight]

Advantage = 60:40 or better
Even = 55:45 - 45:55
Disadvantage = 40:60 or worse

Meta Knight - disadvantage
Snake - even
Wario - even
Falco - even
Diddy Kong - even
King Dedede - advantage
Marth - disadvantage
Pikachu - even
Olimar - :D
Ice Climbers -even
R.O.B. - even
Kirby - even
Lucario - even
Zero Suit Samus - even
Toon Link - advantage
Pit - even
Donkey Kong - even
GaW - even
Peach - disadvantage
Luigi - disadvantage
Fox -even
Wolf - even
Sonic -advantage
Sheik - even
Bowser - advantage
Zelda - advantage
Pokémon Trainer -advantage
Ike - advantage
Lucas - even
Mario - advantage
Ness - even
Yoshi - even
Samus - advantage
Jigglypuff - advantage
Captain Falcon - advantage
Link - advantage
Ganondorf -advantage