Peach's Frame Data

[EdreesesPieces]

Just needed these again, so bumping to first page because I will reference this a lot..haha.

What frame does spot dodge come OUT on?

 

[Morrigan]

You mean its invincibility frames?

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I know that its invincibility frames come out on the 2nd frame that spot dodge is out like in the post, but how many frames does the spot dodge itself take to come out from the instant you press it? I guess its just instant?

 

[Morrigan]

Considering invincibility frames come out on the 2nd frame, I would assume that yeah, it comes out instantly. It's as fast as the first jab.

 

[3GOD]

I assume it comes out the instant you press it...meaning, the game reads your spot dodge input on Frame X. On Frame X+1, the Spot Dodge starts, and on Frame X+2, Peach is invincible.

This is how things worked in Melee at least, but in Brawl, I don't know for certain.

 

[Niko_K]

I have updated the original post! Thanks 3GOD. All your data really ***** all of mine. It's really in depth and it's going to help a lot when I decide to actually sit my *** down and remember things.

Requesting sticky.

 

[Morrigan]

Awesomeness.

 

[hotgarbage]

Holy crap. <3 3GOD

 

[Airgemini]

=O
Wow the OP looks nice!!!

 

[hotgarbage]

Just a little tid-bit:

Canceling a dash by shielding or just stopping takes 15 frames. Doing so by floating, autofloating, and then falling takes 9 frames (that's the best I've gotten).

Not sure how useful that actually is, but eh

 

[Villi]

Just a little tid-bit:

Canceling a dash by shielding or just stopping takes 15 frames. Doing so by floating, autofloating, and then falling takes 9 frames (that's the best I've gotten).

Not sure how useful that actually is, but eh

That's good to know... I usually do a shield dash because I can't really tell the difference between the two. But I thought the shield drop animation was only 7 frames. Why is it that it's the same as just stopping?

 

[hotgarbage]

That's good to know... I usually do a shield dash because I can't really tell the difference between the two. But I thought the shield drop animation was only 7 frames. Why is it that it's the same as just stopping?

The shield drop animation is 7 frames, but activating the shield and dropping it put together is 15...... though now that you mention it I think I'll test that again, I may have been holding the shield button a split second too long.

 

[Miller]

Niko, Dont leave your account logged in while in Niagara

We may be tempted to troll

But nice work on the frame data

 

[LÉØN]

good stuff niko

 

[Gimpyfish62]

*bowser taunt*

 

[Morrigan]

^Which one?

Horny bowser?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

which one? melee bowser is the only bowser in the smash universe and he only has one taunt.

 

[Morrigan]

smrpg bowser laughs

 

[Niko_K]

Thanks for the sticky Gimpyfish!

 

[hotgarbage]

Alrigghhhhht, I've got some "slap-> followup" info:

First off how the slap stuff works:
The first slap pops your opponent upwards a bit, and when they hit the ground they have 4 frames of landing lag (awesome). Unfortunately some characters can jump out of the hitstun before they hit they ground. And by some characters I mean jigglypuff because that's the only one I've tested <______>. In that case though you can nail them with an ftilt after the 1st slap... though how practical it is depends on the character I'm sure. Now that I think of it though this could be a neat way to get someone to use their 2nd jump.... if you hit them off the stage before they hit the ground they'll be in a tight spot.


Anyways I only briefly tested this stuff, but here are some numbers:
Wolf: -1 frame advantage
Mario: +1 frame advantage
Lucario: +3 frame advantage
Jigglypuff: +7 frame advantage xP

So yeah, the more floaty a character is the larger frame advantage you'll have... assuming they don't jump. Also the minimum time for a shield to be put up and taken down is 14 frames, so if done right these guys WILL get grabbed if they put up their shield.


I'll be getting data on this, but here is a to do list for anyone that wants to pitch in:
- need to see who can jump out and who can't
- if they can jump see how practical an ftilt is after they do
- get the frame advantages for all characters
- I think that's it ?_____?

Hope all that was coherent, I'm bushed :X.

 

[hotgarbage]

allriiiight. Here is some more slap advantage malarky:



Luigi: +3
Peach: +3
-Bowser: 0
DK: +1
-Diddy: -1
Yoshi: +1
Wario: 0
-Link: 0
Zelda: +3
-Shiek: -1
-Ganon: 0
Toon Link: +2


Characters with a "-" by their name cannot jump out of this. Most characters in the game can jump out... so I guess you just need to hope that your opponent's reaction time sucks or they don't know they can jump out of it .

 

[BentoBox]

You're the hottest piece of garbage in the world!

I'm really reconsidering buying a wii now lol~

 

[Morrigan]

Any chances of adding Autocancelled moves' frames?

 

[TheRealBobMan]

Oh man, I actually just joined Smashboards after all these years just to correct your post. -_-;

Someone was posting framerate data on all the characters over on AiB, and linked here from his post. I've been testing this myself over the last few days, and while I'm using a very simple method that doesn't give the exact frame (which is why I wish one of the people with hacks would FREAKIN' DO THIS FOR US), I can prove that you're wrong on her neutralA (as well as that guy I just mentioned being wrong on many of the things he posted).

Fox's reflector comes out in 1 frame, or at the very least, is the fastest attack I have found so far, tied with Rest, and with effects from several moves (Pokemon Change gives invincibility starting with the 1st frame, and while the hitbox doesn't come out, Wariobike will come out on frame1, meaning if you use Wario's sideB, you're guaranteed to have a bike on the field so long as you're not in an animation where you can't pull the bike out when you start the move). There's plenty of moves I still need to test, along with their effects, but I'll be posting everything I find (and all that I've already found) on All is Brawl.

As for my method, I pause the game, hold the button down for the attack, and unpause. The game automatically uses the move as fast as it'll come out. Fox's Reflector (which is obviously different from Falco's and Wolf's), as far as I know, comes out on frame 1, and has invincibility for that frame (and that frame only). The next fastest moves I've found this way are ZSS's jab and Squirtle's jab. They tie eachother (they trade at point blank due to hitboxes, but they clank with a slight bit of space between them). For the next fastest moves, I've found that Lucas, Luigi, Fox, Falcon (who only clanks at range due to his crappy priority, he loses at point blank), and PEACH, tie with their jabs. For the record, I have to say here that there's more moves that might tie this, as well as Pit's Utilt which I've already tested, but at the very least, these are all at the same speed.

Now think about it. If Reflector is the fastest, and ZSS and Squirtle's jabs come out faster, and THEN Peach's jab is tied with many moves for the next fastest, even if Fox's Reflector was the fastest move in the game, Peach's jab has to come out AT THE FASTEST on frame 3.


Through this testing, I've also found wierd effects on moves, like Bullet Seed giving Bulbasaur complete invincibility from at least frames 1-3 (which I can prove through my above method), and it looks like the ground hitbox (the one that pushes into the bullet stream) starts (and the invincibility ends) on frame 4, though I can't really prove that much yet. I'm going off of knowing that Wolf's reflector is invincible from frame 1-at least 4, maybe 5, though I can't prove much since I haven't yet tested enough to find where the hitbox is on that move for sure (but I know it's not on frame 1, and I can prove that with Fox's Reflector).

Anyway, I'll continue to compile this data, and I'll be posting it on AiB. Right now, I need to watch House.

Oh, and for the record, you can test any move that doesn't charge up with this method. You can test jabs, tilts, grabs... if you pause and push A with a direction, you start to charge up your smash, but if you hold the direction BEFORE pausing, then hold it as you push A and then unpause, you'll do your tilt. You can test grabs with Z, but the game will think you're taking a picture, so just shieldgrab (it foregoes the shield animation and goes straight for the grab).
And to answer that one guy's question, blocking and spot-dodging happen in 1 frame. : )
And character grabs have different come out times.
And I don't know exactly when you leave the ground out of a jump, but its' not on frame 1. I just haven't tested it thoroughly enough yet.

Ok, I'm off...

 

[Niko_K]

No.

10 No's

 

[hotgarbage]

Your method makes no sense TheRealBobMan :/. All data in this thread was collected by capturing video at 30fps and then bob-deinterlacing it to achieve 60fps. That way the frames could be analyzed directly.



Oh yeah, and life is settling down a bit, so I'll try to get some more data 8]

 

[Morrigan]

Pausing for frame data collection is rather INACCURATE, don't you think?

 

[Tenki]

Pausing for frame data collection is rather INACCURATE, don't you think?

It's kinda funny you mentioned that, since I just did a search for MK's frame data and came across this old post:

Uair - 2
Nair - 3
Dair - 4
Up B - 5
Glide attack - 5
Fair - 6
Bair - 7

Dash attack - 5

Grab - 6
Dash Grab - 9

Jab - 7

F tilt - 3
Down tilt - 3
Up tilt - 8

Down Smash - 5
Up Smash - 8
F Smash - too slow to test

Down Smash released from charged position - 4
F Smash released from charged position - 4
Up smash released from charged position - 5

Someone asked him how he came across these results and he said...

a lot of pausing, repetition, and retests. I don't feel like explaining it, but just really boring method of standing 2 characters next to each other, pausing, then holding A on both controllers (or whatever is needed) and seeing if the 2 moves collide at the same time, then it's the same speed (lots of retests to assure accuracy). And if it's one frame apart, for 2 moves of close, but not exact speed, (I can do up to a few frames if I wanna be really tricky but that's really frustrating to test) I just press A on one controller, then pause immediately, and on the other controller I hold A, and then unpause, and they will collide on the same time. Lots of retests.

However, Brawl made it really hard for me since I can no longer hold a C stick direction with pause. In melee if I did that I'll just smash attack as soon as possible (when it's unpaused), as expected, but in Brawl it doesn't let you do that for some STUPID reason, making these tests way more boring.

Btw, for a comparison, Snake's Jab is 3, F tilt is 4, Up tilt is 6 and Down tilt is 6

 

[Morrigan]

I guess I was wrong then, but you gotta admit that's like rotating a house to change a lightbulb.

 

[hotgarbage]

Ohhhhh ok; I get it now. That method works by comparing different moves. That's actually a pretty clever way of doing it.

As for my method, I pause the game, hold the button down for the attack, and unpause. The game automatically uses the move as fast as it'll come out. Fox's Reflector (which is obviously different from Falco's and Wolf's), as far as I know, comes out on frame 1, and has invincibility for that frame (and that frame only). The next fastest moves I've found this way are ZSS's jab and Squirtle's jab. They tie eachother (they trade at point blank due to hitboxes, but they clank with a slight bit of space between them). For the next fastest moves, I've found that Lucas, Luigi, Fox, Falcon (who only clanks at range due to his crappy priority, he loses at point blank), and PEACH, tie with their jabs. For the record, I have to say here that there's more moves that might tie this, as well as Pit's Utilt which I've already tested, but at the very least, these are all at the same speed.

Now think about it. If Reflector is the fastest, and ZSS and Squirtle's jabs come out faster, and THEN Peach's jab is tied with many moves for the next fastest, even if Fox's Reflector was the fastest move in the game, Peach's jab has to come out AT THE FASTEST on frame 3.

Wait a second though. You're saying that:

- fox's reflector comes out on frame 1 has invincibility frames on that frame.
- fox's reflector beats zss's jab
- therefore zss's jab comes out on frame 2

You can't arrive at that conclusion though, as zss's jab being slower than fox's reflector isn't the only explanation for that occurrence. It could be that zss's jab comes out on frame 1 as well, but gets beaten due to the reflector having invincibility frames. Or it could be that they come out at the same time and fox's reflector wins due to funky B move priority. I think I'll look into this and see just what is happening here.

Also this pause thing is pretty cool actually. It'll make getting certain frame data MUCH easier .

 

[hotgarbage]

You're the hottest piece of garbage in the world!

DURRRRRN RIGHT



Anyways, here is the rest of the slap advantage info:

Mario: +1
Luigi: +3
Peach: +3
Bowser: 0
DK: +1
Diddy: -1
Yoshi: +1
Wario: 0
Link: 0
Zelda: +3
Shiek: -1
Ganon: 0
Toon Link: +2
Samus: +3
Pit: +2
Ice Climbers+1
ROB: +2
Kirby: +4
MK: 0
Dedede: +2
Olimar: +4
Fox: 0
Falco: -1
Wolf: -1
C. Falcon: -1
Pika: 0
Squirtle: 0
Ivysaur: +2
Charizard: +1
Lucario: +3
Jigglypuff: +7
Marth: +3
Ike: 0
Ness: +2
Lucas: +1
G&W: +2
Snake: +1
Sonic: 0


EDIT: I just looked into what you were talking about TheRealBobMan; and fox's shine (holy crap that's easier to type) has invincibility frames on frame 1 (may have it on other frames; didn't test it). So this explains his shine beating zss's jab. The attack portion of his shine actually comes out on frame 3

EDIT 2: added all the characters into the list... oops forgot to get zamus <_____>.

 

[PrepareYourself]

Then I assume the invincibility frame is until frame 3 as well.

Metaknight's Nair = Frame 5

 

[hotgarbage]

^ yeah, I would assume that as well, but I didn't test it

 

[UnSaxon51]

This is an awesome thread! Makes me want to go compile one for my mains.

About the frame testing using pause: While that is useful in determining speed comparisons and priority, isn't it a bit cumbersome when trying to determine moves with longer durations? Not to mention the hassle with smashes that M2K described. Video capture seems like it would be much more efficient.

Though admittedly that does require having the ability to capture video.

 

[TheRealBobMan]

Yeah, I did more testing and it looks like Reflector has invincibility from frames 1-3, and that the attack does come out on frame 3. Sorry about that guys. : (

Anyway, the best way would be if someone could develop a hack to make hitboxes visible, to highlight parts of the body that are invincible/disjointed, and run it at the same time as a hack that lets you run the game at 1 frame per second (and I know that it should be possible to make that hack because of what that guy used to make the video "perfect control". I just wish someone would get on this for us instead of having all of these people trying to change the game before knowing exactly what they're changing).

I found some interesting stuff with this method. I've stopped doing it lately because I've been practicing for a tourny that's tomorrow, but I before I stopped I found that Bullet Seed has invincibility from frames 1-3 as well. Also, I've determined that Wolf's reflector has invincibility for at least frames 1-5 (if you go by Dolphin Slash coming out on frame 5). Also, I don't know if anyone has frame data on the fart already (I haven't seen any), but it should be known that a charged fart (the one that jumps, but not a full charge) comes out faster than a full charge... and that when tested with this method, you'll see that it hits before a Dedede grab. : )
If Dedede ever messes up a chain, he gets a face full of ***.

Yeah, this is a very tedious way of doing things...

 

[hotgarbage]

This is an awesome thread! Makes me want to go compile one for my mains.

About the frame testing using pause: While that is useful in determining speed comparisons and priority, isn't it a bit cumbersome when trying to determine moves with longer durations? Not to mention the hassle with smashes that M2K described. Video capture seems like it would be much more efficient.

Though admittedly that does require having the ability to capture video.

Oh yes, video capture is a MUCH more efficient way of doing this . The pause thing is very useful for figuring out invincibility frames though (as TheRealBobMan has already pointed out).

Yeah, I did more testing and it looks like Reflector has invincibility from frames 1-3, and that the attack does come out on frame 3. Sorry about that guys. : (

Anyway, the best way would be if someone could develop a hack to make hitboxes visible, to highlight parts of the body that are invincible/disjointed, and run it at the same time as a hack that lets you run the game at 1 frame per second (and I know that it should be possible to make that hack because of what that guy used to make the video "perfect control". I just wish someone would get on this for us instead of having all of these people trying to change the game before knowing exactly what they're changing).

I found some interesting stuff with this method. I've stopped doing it lately because I've been practicing for a tourny that's tomorrow, but I before I stopped I found that Bullet Seed has invincibility from frames 1-3 as well. Also, I've determined that Wolf's reflector has invincibility for at least frames 1-5 (if you go by Dolphin Slash coming out on frame 5). Also, I don't know if anyone has frame data on the fart already (I haven't seen any), but it should be known that a charged fart (the one that jumps, but not a full charge) comes out faster than a full charge... and that when tested with this method, you'll see that it hits before a Dedede grab. : )
If Dedede ever messes up a chain, he gets a face full of ***.

Yeah, this is a very tedious way of doing things...

No worries . That's very interesting about bullet seed though.





Anyways, I'm posting here because I've been getting different results for shield stun than what's listed. For an example, the first post lists shield stun for peach's slap as 5, while I'm getting 1:

Or am I missing something here?

On a related note, once I figure out how to get decent quality gifs (notice Daisy's arm disappearing in the one above when she grabs ) I'm going to get gifs for all her moves, which should be pretty neat .

 

[White-Peach]

You are a god and i love you (maybe seeing the slap in slow-mo is your cupid's arrow )

 

[hotgarbage]

Glad you like it @___________@

 

[3GOD]

Anyways, I'm posting here because I've been getting different results for shield stun than what's listed. For an example, the first post lists shield stun for peach's slap as 5, while I'm getting 1:

Or am I missing something here?

I got your PM a while back, but I've been quite busy lately. Anyway, in regard to this picture, it seems to me that there are 7 frames of shield stun and 6 frames of shield hit lag. Perhaps it's a difference of what we define as shield stun. The way I test shield stun is as follows:

1) I use ZSS and whatever character I'm testing. I like to use ZSS because she has a good size shield and it's easy to see her jumping animation.

2) Have Peach (for example) slap shielding ZSS and have ZSS buffer a jump (I use Up on the control stick for an easy buffered jump) from the shield stun. You can easily see when the shield drops and the jumping animation begins.

3) The moment her shield was hit counts as frame 1 of shield stun/shield hit lag. The frame before her jumping animation starts is the last frame of shield stun. The frame before Peach continues her slapping animation is the end of the shield hit lag.

4) Repeat this several times to make sure you get consistent numbers.

Also, I'm not sure why, but I sometimes get different numbers on repeated trials for shield hit lag/shield stun. I think it has something to do with move decay, so now I always kill of Peach (or whatever character I'm testing) if any move connects (causing damage that is - hitting a shield doesn't affect decay). I'll try to check this out later to confirm it.

EDIT: I did test my theory, and it seems correct. I tested Bowser's Jab (since I was testing out some Bowser stuff). When it was completely fresh, it gave 7 frames of shield stun and 7 frames of shield hit lag. Then I jabbed 10 times (more actually) to fully decay the jab and got only 5 frames of shield stun and 5 frames of shield hit lag.

The good news is that decayed moves still seem to get the same trade-off for shield stun/shield hit lag, but the bad news is that I didn't realize this earlier, and so some of that advantage information might be a little bit off.

 

[hotgarbage]

No worries about the pm, that's life for ya .

Ok, we both test this stuff the exact same way, save I use peach and her grab for the same reasons you use zss. And that decay bit explains the different results we were getting. Personally I like to separate shield stun from shield hitlag instead of adding it together, but I guess it doesn't really matter as advantage is the important number here. I'll retest this stuff in maybe a week if you're too busy (I need to finish up mk and G&W first).