Planking Info (G&W Added)

[J4pu]

Well, what if you added something else, like a dropping nikita, and a c4 at the edge. I'm just curious if we're discussing human capacity. So say you had a c4 at the edge, tossed a grenade and stripped at the edge. Or mentioned earlier shooting a nikita from a distance up into the air and then dropping it, then tossing a grenade or something. I'm just curious, it was a very informative read.

fully invincible DownB regrabbing would be the answer for any projectiles that take time to set up so that the MK can see them coming.

What about Pikachu's thunder jolt, isn't supposed to be pretty good at stopping planking??

Also MKs Down B... doesn't it only first become invincible at like frame 14 or something really late like that?

And... christ... this is...

Well... you have thoroughly convinced me that MK without a ledge grab limit needs to be banned.......

that's where the ledge invincibility comes in, it covers the vulnerable frames of his downB

 

[Yink]

I doubt someone's mentioned this, and I don't know if it's correct.

What about Ness' PK Fire? I know it's slow but if anything touches PK Fire (besides counters, cape, Pit's shield etc) doesn't PK Fire ignite? Just wondering

PK Thunder wouldn't work DMG, Uair would cancel it, unless you get a tailwhip in I think.

 

[DMG]

Yeah. Invincibility on Down B kicks in late, but he's still invincible previously from grabbing the edge so it doesn't matter.

Thunder Jolts are bad. In the air, they travel Diagonally down and are easy to avoid. If it clings to the edge, you can try to eat it while invincible, or drop down vertically/not hug the edge so close. Thunderjolt would be REALLY good if Pikachu didn't lag afterwards so dang much. Even if you jump, move forward, shoot it, and follow it, Pikachu can't capitalize on it.

As for Snake's other projectiles, No. C4 you can stay invincible throughout it all, and if you see him go to explode it, you can airdodge for further safety. You can also Down B invincible edge grab. Nikita is interesting. You can purposefully take the hit while invincible, you can invincible Down B onto the edge, you can hit it with aerials and have it fall (you can hit Nikita with attacks to deflect it and temporarily make it not active/make it hit you). Nikita if he tries to drop it in really high, you can move onstage and threaten to punish him. Either he will cut it short, and you simply move back or shield it, or you punish him for doing it. The further back Snake does Nikita, the less effective but safer he is. The closer he is, generally the more of a shot he has at actually hitting MK with it, at the cost of it being riskier to try. In the end, MK is 100% safe regardless of what Snake does.

 

[theunabletable]

@Yink: UAir can't cancel it because MKs sword is transcendent (aka laser priority, aka only interacts with hurt boxes. Afaik PK Thunder has no hurt box, it only has a hitbox).

 

[Throwback]

30 frame regrab - 21 frames of invincibility = 9 frames of vulnerability. That should be enough time for many projectiles to hit MK - samus' homing missile and Pika's TJ will both be able to find MK I think

 

[rPSIvysaur]

IIRC, that only applies to Lucas'. Ness' is canceled even by windboxes.

 

[DMG]

30 frame regrab - 21 frames of invincibility = 9 frames of vulnerability. That should be enough time for many projectiles to hit MK - samus' homing missile and Pika's TJ will both be able to find MK I think

EXCEPT, AS I HAVE SAID, INVINCIBLE DOWN B EDGE GRABBING!!!!

Which means for projectiles that would be considered "threatening", they don't work lol.

 

[Spelt]

pikachu jolt is also transcendent so not even marth can wave it away with his sword.
you can still just let it hit you while you're invincible though.
no biggie.

 

[DMG]

Yeah.

Take the hit, while invincible. Or grab the edge invincible. Either one wrecks projectiles and makes them almost always a poor choice in trying to stop MK from planking.

 

[theunabletable]

I have a serious question.

If we can conclude that MKs planking makes the game unplayable, then can't we classify it as the SBR definition of stalling, and just include planking in the stalling list?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Brilliance in Texan form.

If I point out the oxymoron, I'll get shot.

 

[J4pu]

IIRC, that only applies to Lucas'. Ness' is canceled even by windboxes.

Lucas' just has more priority and upon hitting something (without being hit itself will continue) Ness' still doesn't have a hurtbox afaik
my understanding of projectiles that have hurtboxes are that upon being hit (with high enough priority) they undergo some type of transformation other than being flat out canceled

pikachu jolt is also transcendent so not even marth can wave it away with his sword.
you can still just let it hit you while you're invincible though.
no biggie.

i'm pretty sure you can swat away tjolts, you can jab them away with falco and I have no knowledge of marth's sword being unable to interact with energy based moves.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You could force a guessing game with Meta Knight.

You can drop down during his "I can't let go of the edge" frames so that you grab the ledge in the two frames before Meta Knight's U-Air is active. That way, you take the edge from him.

However, if he decides to hold on, you're basically ****ed.

You could do an aerial in that case, but with his ******** recovery, he's going to make it back unless he's at a very high percent.

Either way, Meta Knight has a ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous advantage no matter what you do. I just wanted to point this out.

 

[Luxor]

I have a serious question.

If we can conclude that MKs planking makes the game unplayable, then can't we classify it as the SBR definition of stalling, and just include planking in the stalling list?

Define planking. Precisely.

Spoiler

You couldn't, could you? LGL's are as good as it gets against planking. If planking is three ledgegrabs in a row, I'll do two then glide under the stage.

 

[J4pu]

so was the proposed planking analyses on all characters just a thinly veiled attempt to get at another reason MK is broken and needs to be banned without seeming overly biased?
is there actually going to be a discussion eventually on other plankers or is this going to turn into a look how broken MK is thread?

 

[DMG]

Also Reflex, the problem with that "guessing game" is that like I stated earlier, taking the edge from MK doesn't really put him at a disadvantage. Those frames you are "stuck" on the edge apply to you now, and MK can safely get onstage for free. Which, now makes the situation a free "Hey I have the opponent on the edge while I am safe onstage" which can lead into either free damage/gimp, or a safe retreat to the other edge.


The only character honestly that really is surprising is Pikachu. He suffers less lag, and has one of the faster snaps out there. He still cannot get in framewise with MK planking correctly, and technically MK can still guarantee safety getting onto the edge, but he certainly can try.

J4PU: No this is a Planking Info thread. I fully intend to cover G&W and Pit, as people don't understand some of the holes in those plankers, and I might cover lesser known planking characters like Mario and Pikachu.

MK is easily the best planker by far, and with planking he IS broken, but I didn't make this thread to specifically go "MK IS DUMB, BAN HIM! PRO BAN FURY, ACTIVATE!" lol. I'm actually pretty neutral about the matter, HOWEVER at this point it is clear something needs to be done about MK. He cannot go onwards being allowed AND being able to plank. While I think trying to put a restriction on planking is the lesser/not as good option, I could accept a rule on that and have MK allowed. I think banning him is the easiest and best option cause you don't have the question of "Oh how many edge grabs is the cast allowed to have/how many times can MK grab the edge specifically/What defines planking", but if the community truly feels that the best course is to limit him and keep him in the game, I could respect that.

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm glad all future tournaments will have a ledge grab rule now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also Reflex, the problem with that "guessing game" is that like I stated earlier, taking the edge from MK doesn't really put him at a disadvantage. Those frames you are "stuck" on the edge apply to you now, and MK can safely get onstage for free. Which, now makes the situation a free "Hey I have the opponent on the edge while I am safe onstage" which can lead into either free damage/gimp, or a safe retreat to the other edge.

Yeah, I know it doesn't really work favorably at all, but I didn't see this possibility to take the edge in the OP, so I figured I'd aid the discussion a bit.

 

[Throwback]

EXCEPT, AS I HAVE SAID, INVINCIBLE DOWN B EDGE GRABBING!!!!

Which means for projectiles that would be considered "threatening", they don't work lol.

Well you can't just make your choice on reaction because of DownB's relatively slow start-up time. And if you DownB at the wrong time, you lose a stock (or at best eat a ledge-hopped aerial).


Don't mean to be an idiot, I'm just not 100% sure the frames fully support your analysis.

 

[theunabletable]

Define planking. Precisely.

Define Peach Bombering against a wall as stalling and not for recovery. Precisely.

If you think your opponent is planking, call over a TO, and if to the TO it looks like he is avoiding all contact by repeatedly grabbing the ledge, then the person gets a warning/DQ.

TOs in Melee were able to tell if you were stalling with Peach bomber.

If you make an anti-planking rule where the TO is able to judge whether or not it's planking, I GUARANTEE that you won't see people planking out of fear of being DQ'd.

For instance, IDC was banned for stalling purposes, but people still don't throw it out even if they aren't stalling for fear of getting DQ'd. If you say you're not allowed to plank, and that the TO has the power to decide what is and isn't planking, then people WILL NOT PLANK.

 

[DMG]

Yeah. Like basically, although no one is framewise allowed to grab the edge as long as MK has any say in it, in the instance that something happens and WTF they are on the edge, what can he do, OH CRAP now he can go onstage for free. CRAP. Now I forced myself to grab the edge and let him on for free lol.

Well you can't just make your choice on reaction because of DownB's relatively slow start-up time. And if you DownB at the wrong time, you lose a stock (or at best eat a ledge-hopped aerial).


Don't mean to be an idiot, I'm just not 100% sure the frames fully support your analysis.

Trust me when I say that Thunderjolts don't stop planking. You can either eat the Thunderjolt while invincible, or if that is not possible you can Down B to the edge safely.

IF that is not enough, you can drop down JUST a sliver, and while Thunder Jolt runs along the edge, then you grab it. If Pika tries to take the edge during this, remember Uair stuffs his options lol.

 

[J4pu]

I fully agree that MK has the advantage on the edge
but given below scenario how would MK deal with it based on reaction for a 100% chance of taking no damage?:
Pikachu starts off on the far end of the stage
fullhop, DJ, Tjolt + DI forwards to land and run with the tjolt
tjolt and pika reach the edge of the stage
pika can choose to try and hug the edge if it's free or he anticipates MK leaving the edge or can jump and do a wavebounced thunder covering the edge and landing pika back onto the stage

 

[Zankoku]

Define Peach Bombering against a wall as stalling and not for recovery. Precisely.

That's a legacy rule. You can only stall with Peach Bomber on a universally banned stage (Fourside) in the first place. Using Peach Bomber anywhere else is a "recover or die" option.

 

[DMG]

That scenario takes too long. If Pikachu is that far away when he starts it, it's not even a matter of "reacting" fast. In that case, it's actually not hard to grab the edge as it would first start to get there.

A harder scenario to beat IMO would be where Pika gets complicated. Aims the Thunder Jolt, in the air, RIGHT at the edge where you aren't sure if you it will touch the stage, or if it will pass under. Either one is beatable, but I think that gives the mind more to process than "Ok he jumped, DJ, Thunder Jolt and is following it, ok I just grab here" lol.

 

[J4pu]

Define Peach Bombering against a wall as stalling and not for recovery. Precisely.

If you think your opponent is planking, call over a TO, and if to the TO it looks like he is avoiding all contact by repeatedly grabbing the ledge, then the person gets a warning/DQ.

TOs in Melee were able to tell if you were stalling with Peach bomber.

If you make an anti-planking rule where the TO is able to judge whether or not it's planking, I GUARANTEE that you won't see people planking out of fear of being DQ'd.

For instance, IDC was banned for stalling purposes, but people still don't throw it out even if they aren't stalling for fear of getting DQ'd. If you say you're not allowed to plank, and that the TO has the power to decide what is and isn't planking, then people WILL NOT PLANK.

Uhhh, I've heard there was a limit in melee to no more than 4 consecutive peach bombers or it was considered stalling.
the brawl version of this would be a ledge-grab limit since a TO would not be able to watch every game for the amount of times someone consecutively grabbed the edge
Requiring the TO's ruling on something requires the TO's attention and time and there are too many games running at once for a TO to reasonably be charged with keeping them all stalling-free, thus rules must be created that can be enforced without requiring the TO's constant attention.

I have no idea how melee TO's would be able to enforce said rule, it's just what ive heard.

@DMG the other side of the stage part was an exxageration of what I was picturing in my head, pika just needed to be able to fully DI forward while falling and land out of range of an Uair from MK.

 

[theunabletable]

That's a legacy rule. You can only stall with Peach Bomber on a universally banned stage (Fourside) in the first place. Using Peach Bomber anywhere else is a "recover or die" option.

Really? I thought you could stall with it anywhere with a wall that you could normally recover from?

Although Puff's rising pound is the same concept. Define stalling with that.

Requiring the TO's ruling on something requires the TO's attention and time and there are too many games running at once for a TO to reasonably be charged with keeping them all stalling-free, thus rules must be created that can be enforced without requiring the TO's constant attention.

Except people WON'T plank if there's a "no planking rule"; because they know if the TO ever looks at their match, they'll get DQ'd.

You didn't see that crap in Melee with characters like Puff because they KNOW they'll be DQ'd if a TO looks at the match, so they don't do it for fear of being DQ'd.

I guarantee you won't have people planking out the timer if the TO has the power to DQ them if the TO thinks they're planking.

 

[DMG]

If MK grabs the edge, and the Thunder Jolt is neutralized or cannot hit him anymore, he can proceed to "wall" MK like he normally does. That's basically what I am getting at.

 

[Luxor]

If you make an anti-planking rule where the TO is able to judge whether or not it's planking, I GUARANTEE that you won't see people planking out of fear of being DQ'd.
For instance, IDC was banned for stalling purposes, but people still don't throw it out even if they aren't stalling for fear of getting DQ'd. If you say you're not allowed to plank, and that the TO has the power to decide what is and isn't planking, then people WILL NOT PLANK.

The problem is that you're giving power to an ultimately subjective judge. If the TO is watching, and I make three consecutive ledgegrabs, does it count as stalling? I'll make two and glide under the stage, then grab that ledge. Still count as stalling? How about one grab, glide under the stage, and Shuttle Loop glide back to my original ledge. Any logical, concrete rule can be circumvented. And relying on a TO's biased decision is worse. It can let MK plank for eternities or give him two ledge grabs max. It cannot be implemented widely in the Brawl community at large and varies from TO to TO. Plus TO's aren't always available.
Any "consecutive ledgegrabs" rule won't be effective, and relying on TO's doesn't work.
And there will always be people who walk the line between legal and illegal.

EDIT:

Although Puff's rising pound is the same concept. Define stalling with that. Except people WON'T plank if there's a "no planking rule"; because they know if the TO ever looks at their match, they'll get DQ'd.

You can't define rising pound stalling. It's as undefinable and problematic in theory as MK's planking, but nobody mains Jiggs/stalls with Jiggs/annoys people with Jiggs, so nobody worries about it. Plus it's not as amazing as planking.

You didn't see that crap in Melee with characters like Puff because they KNOW they'll be DQ'd if a TO looks at the match, so they don't do it for fear of being DQ'd.

"I was just baiting an aerial to punish, not stalling!"
Melee is a different game anyways. The culture is offensive.

Spoiler

not as in smell

I guarantee you won't have people planking out the timer if the TO has the power to DQ them if the TO thinks they're planking.

You don't have to plank out the timer. Just until your opponent makes a mistake.
There are plenty of other ways to run out the timer, like gliding and running away.


Anyone else got an opinion on this debate?

 

[Zankoku]

Really? I thought you could stall with it anywhere with a wall that you could normally recover from?

The concept of the Peach Bomber was that its startup completely negated any momentum you had before, then launched you forward. Since the bounce leaves you drifting backward, you basically have no time to spare and have to immediately do a smash Peach Bomber (the non-smash version doesn't reach far enough to get back to the wall). Doing so at this forced timing will always cause you to rise, albeit slowly, and being extremely vulnerable at that (I'd be surprised if a Fox didn't just shinespike you for attempting this when he's not recovering or dead).

It's possible to stall on Fourside because you're between two walls, and one wall will stop you from drifting backward, so you're given the option to vary your timing.

Although Puff's rising pound is the same concept. Define stalling with that.

Using the rising pound back and forth when off-stage out of reach, or continuing to use it even after you've reached the stage but remaining out of reach. Both are rather difficult to pull off to a degree that it literally prevents any and all interaction, and is effectively impossible against another Jigglypuff. This is in fact also a legacy rule, which is why it was removed in the latest rule set.

 

[theunabletable]

The problem is that you're giving power to an ultimately subjective judge.

We did it in Melee and it worked fine.

If the TO is watching, and I make three consecutive ledgegrabs, does it count as stalling?

That's up to the TO.

And relying on a TO's biased decision is worse.

It worked in Melee.

and relying on TO's doesn't work.

Melee completely and utterly proves you wrong.

And there will always be people who walk the line between legal and illegal.

Doesn't happen in Melee.

Both are rather difficult to pull off to a degree that it literally prevents any and all interaction

Doing IDC for 8 minutes is hard, but it was still banned.

Mind if I ask what exactly is a "legacy rule"?

 

[Spelt]

melee melee melee melee melee.
brawl is different from melee.

 

[DMG]

Oh yeah, I'll give you guys a small insight when it comes to G&W's Planking:

The amount of time you are completely invincible from grabbing the edge actually works against G&W. Especially when you combine that with get up attack or stand up at the right time. I'll explain more later once I have everything confirmed, but basically since G&W isn't invincible all the way up on his Upb even at higher heights, you can hit him out of it as he comes up, and if not you can force him to not be able to grab the edge and have to go onstage.

 

[theunabletable]

Yeah this game isn't Melee, but he said that a rule that relies on the discretion of a TO wouldn't work. I gave him proof of an incredibly similar game having absolutely NO PROBLEMS with that.

Melee, a game that everyone knows is very similar to Brawl (in comparison to other fighters, of course), had a rule very similar to what I'm proposing and experienced none of the problems he's talking about.

 

[Zankoku]

Mind if I ask what exactly is a "legacy rule"?

A rule that was implemented early on as a preventative measure or due to a now-illegal stage being legal for counterpick, then remained on rule sets even though it was obsolete; or, just a rule that got blanketed into a more general rule. For example, rule sets referring to Mewtwo's Soul Stunner glitch, even though it requires a red shell to actually perform, or rules that specifically ban the use of Master Hand, even though using him at all would constitute as excessive stalling.

 

[theunabletable]

^How is Jiggs' rising pound stall made obsolete by changes in stage selection, or blanketed into another rule?

Yeah there's the suggestion for doing something against stalling, but how does a TO make a tournament where stalling with Jiggs rising pound is banned, but not subjectively so?

 

[Spelt]

i think he means that there's a rule to address rising pound stalling, but at the same time there's also the general stalling rule which also covers rising pound.

 

[clowsui]

i've heard this point argued by several neutral but anti-lgl people (e.g. kel, aZ):

the winning conditions of smash have always been stock first, then percentage. timers have created the percentage requirement since without a timer stock is the only thing that matters (reduce your opponent to 0 stocks) unless some other standard is created.

when you add a ledge grab rule you're changing the way that someone wins the game - by adding an arbitrarily determined, subjectively evaluated number of grabs. the violation itself, once the rule is established, may be objective but the legitimacy/illegitimacy of the rule is what's at stake here. who's to say that 30 grabs is the right amount? after all m2k timed shadow out with 14. who's to say that 20 grabs is the right amount? 60? 90? what makes it so that the 50th ledge grab is much worse than the 49th, or the 48th? why is it fair that we reward characters with onstage pressure tools that have bad ledge games (falco)?

you might say, "oh well all they have to do is beat the other guy before the timer runs out", but once you violate the ledge grab rule one victory condition has been fulfilled by the opponent, which puts the ledgegrabber/challenger at a disadvantage immediately. like it or not, by setting an arbitrary ledge grab rule you basically say "hey guys you touched the ledge for the 30th time, now so long as the other guy runs the timer he wins. who cares that your stock and percentage are lower than his? he planked. ergo...he loses!"

the ledge is an integral part of the game like it or not. mk just happens to be the best on it, and here DMG has shown that MK is without a doubt unstoppable with the ledge.

 

[Zankoku]

^How is Jiggs' rising pound stall made obsolete by changes in stage selection, or blanketed into another rule?

With this one.

Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.

I honestly haven't seen or heard of anyone actually win a game with Jigglypuff's Rising Pound, let alone a set or a tournament. I'm not even sure if such a thing happened before the rule was implemented.

 

[J4pu]

is it even possible to infinitely stall with jiggs rising pound? or is it a temp stall, regain your jumps, repeat?

 

[theunabletable]

@Ankoku: I made an edit before you posted. How does a TO make an unsubjective rule to stop people from stalling with Jiggs?

who's to say that 30 grabs is the right amount?

Who's to say that 3 stocks is the right amount? Couldn't 2 stocks work just fine? Who's to say 8 minutes is the right amount of time? Why not 7 minutes?

after all m2k timed shadow out with 14.

Obviously he didn't do the planking that DMG is proposing.

why is it fair that we reward characters with onstage pressure tools that have bad ledge games (falco)?

Why is it fair that we reward Marth by banning MK (since we know he'd benifit more than most characters)?

you might say, "oh well all they have to do is beat the other guy before the timer runs out", but once you violate the ledge grab rule one victory condition has been fulfilled by the opponent, which puts the ledgegrabber/challenger at a disadvantage immediately.

How many times have we seen someone go over the ledge grab limit without trying to plank?

like it or not, by setting an arbitrary ledge grab rule you basically say "hey guys you touched the ledge for the 30th time, now so long as the other guy runs the timer he wins. who cares that your stock and percentage are lower than his? he planked. ergo...he loses!"

Well the goal is to stop planking with the rule, so I don't see what exactly is wrong with this.

the ledge is an integral part of the game like it or not. mk just happens to be the best on it, and here DMG has shown that MK is without a doubt unstoppable with the ledge.

Which is why I asked earlier and NEVER EVER got an answer, if MK is unstoppable on the ledge to the point that he makes the game unplayable, wouldn't it fit the SBR definition of stalling?