Planking Info (G&W Added)

[clowsui]

hmmm i'll address those points later since i have to go to sleep/have hw

but i will say this: the problem with establishing # of ledge grabs as opposed to banning a character is, as overswarm put it, "LGL = surgical, banning = global". we're looking for global changes whenever we can

 

[theunabletable]

^I don't see anything inherently wrong with a surgical change. If banning planking makes MK balanced enough to not be bannable, then doing something to planking is a better solution as it affects FAR less and doesn't hurt the community.

I do not deny that deciding on the number of ledge grabs is subjective, but how is it any more subjective than 3 stocks, 8 minutes?

 

[Luxor]

With this one.
I honestly haven't seen or heard of anyone actually win a game with Jigglypuff's Rising Pound, let alone a set or a tournament. I'm not even sure if such a thing happened before the rule was implemented.

Leaving minor things like rising pound up to the TO is acceptable, because it is beatable in and of itself. I know I'm about to be flamed for using the word "minor," but really, rising pound is nothing compared to the (now proven) absolute invincibility and unpunishability of planking. As Ankoku said, you can be shinespiked or any number of things from it. And the other issue arises here- if something isn't broken, don't ban it. Rising Pound is not gamebreaking, so a concrete ban isn't warranted. We have TO's watch it anyway because we find it annoying. To answer unable table's question, we don't need a concrete ban against Rising Pound because it's not perfect, just annoying.

Planking however, is undefinable, unbeatable, and potentially gamebreaking, as well as annoying. It therefore needs a concrete ban to discourage its use. The problem is that it's essentially undefinable, and a LGL is the best we can do.

EDIT:

@Ankoku: I made an edit before you posted. How does a TO make an unsubjective rule to stop people from stalling with Jiggs? Who's to say that 3 stocks is the right amount? Couldn't 2 stocks work just fine? Who's to say 8 minutes is the right amount of time? Why not 7 minutes? Obviously he didn't do the planking that DMG is proposing. Why is it fair that we reward Marth by banning MK (since we know he'd benifit more than most characters)? How many times have we seen someone go over the ledge grab limit without trying to plank? Well the goal is to stop planking with the rule, so I don't see what exactly is wrong with this. Which is why I asked earlier and NEVER EVER got an answer, if MK is unstoppable on the ledge to the point that he makes the game unplayable, wouldn't it fit the SBR definition of stalling?

The idea is that with a LGL he can't stall forever, and at some point the game becomes playable again. If MK planking with even a low LGL is shown at high levels to break the game, then we take the global way out and ban MK.

^I don't see anything inherently wrong with a surgical change. If banning planking makes MK balanced enough to not be bannable, then doing something to planking is a better solution as it affects FAR less and doesn't hurt the community.

I do not deny that deciding on the number of ledge grabs is subjective, but how is it any more subjective than 3 stocks, 8 minutes?

It's just that if we could go into the game and make planking and MK not go together, we would do that and avoid the situation rather than altering it. Altering it is better than letting it go on broken, though.

Certain aspects of the game happen to be arbitrary, like LGLs and stocks and the timer. Some arbitrary limits are necessary.

 

[theunabletable]

^Your post is a double standard.

If a TO can define the difference between stalling with Rising Pound he can tell if someone is grabbing the ledge for 8 minutes.

And I don't see anything wrong with ledge grab limits (EDIT: that apply to strictly MK, so as not to limit characters like Pit, G&W, etc), either.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah there's the suggestion for doing something against stalling, but how does a TO make a tournament where stalling with Jiggs rising pound is banned, but not subjectively so?

Given how easy it is to tell that someone is stalling with Jiggs' rising Pound, I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where you can argue that you are, in fact, just trying to recover. It'd be like claiming that you were trying to reach a better positioning with Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape glitch.... two minutes after you've started it.

Besides which, I've once again yet to witness such abuse of "subjectivity" in a tournament setting.

 

[theunabletable]

^So why can't the same be done with planking?

 

[Zankoku]

I dunno, was I saying something about Planking? I was just pointing out that your examples were poor, lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

DMG beat me to the punch, I was part of the other ledge grab party that was working on researching this. :<

I don't disagree with anything said thus far, this is part of what pushed me over the edge into the, Pro Ban category.

Making arbitrary rules around this is just a headache, and then added to the fact he already has borderline broken MU's.

 

[DMG]

DMG beat me to the punch, I was part of the other ledge grab party that was working on researching this. :<

I don't disagree with anything said thus far, this is part of what pushed me over the edge into the, Pro Ban category.

Making arbitrary rules around this is just a headache, and then added to the fact he already has borderline broken MU's.

I think we should ban that DMG guy, he knows too much!

HE'S THE MAIN CULPRIT HERE! I CHARGE HIM WITH BATTERY!

 

[theunabletable]

I dunno, was I saying something about Planking? I was just pointing out that your examples were poor, lol.

Ohh... sorry...

My point on stalling stands (regardless of how poor my examples were lol). People didn't have problems in Melee with a subjective rule, so I can't imagine we'll have problems in Brawl with subjective rules.

 

[Luxor]

^Your post is a double standard.

If a TO can define the difference between stalling with Rising Pound he can tell if someone is grabbing the ledge for 8 minutes.

And I don't see anything wrong with ledge grab limits (EDIT: that apply to strictly MK, so as not to limit characters like Pit, G&W, etc), either.

Not a double standard as I see it. From my point of view, Rising Pound doesn't really need to be banned. If it comes out that it's super broken, then I'll revise my stance.
Planking needs definite criteria since it is a "broken strategy" if allowed to go on indefinitely.
And the last point seems like it belongs in an MK ban topic, but I'll just say that if we have to hold MK to different standards than the rest of the cast we should just ban him.

Given how easy it is to tell that someone is stalling with Jiggs' rising Pound, I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where you can argue that you are, in fact, just trying to recover. It'd be like claiming that you were trying to reach a better positioning with Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape glitch.... two minutes after you've started it.
Besides which, I've once again yet to witness such abuse of "subjectivity" in a tournament setting.

It's not only the abuse of subjectivity, but that TO's can't just sit through every single match and decide who planked too much. And would planking only count as a few long sessions or many, many small sessions of a grab or two for "spacing?" It's not that TO's abuse it, it's that without a clear-cut standard for planking, planking can continue.

^So why can't the same be done with planking?

What counts as planking?

...We've just gone full circle here.

 

[theunabletable]

Not a double standard as I see it. From my point of view, Rising Pound doesn't really need to be banned. If it comes out that it's super broken, then I'll revise my stance.

I'd try and prove you wrong by timing people out with it in tournament, but since every **** tournament has a competent rule against it I can't (which is what I guarantee would happen with planking. People wouldn't plank out of fear of being DQ'd.) And, look, without worrying and destroying the community over symantics and attempting to define the undefinable, they have a healthy metagame! Jiggs' rising pound stall isn't hurting the community because of a subjective "undefinable" rule. Why can't planking be the same god **** thing?

Planking needs definite criteria since it is a "broken strategy" if allowed to go on indefinitely.
And the last point seems like it belongs in an MK ban topic, but I'll just say that if we have to hold MK to different standards than the rest of the cast we should just ban him.

Ehh if it makes the game unplayable, and something as simple as a ledge grab limit can stop it, then I think that's a far better solution than an outright ban (effects the metagame less, doesn't hurt the community as badly as an outright ban would, etc.)

What counts as planking?

...We've just gone full circle here.

What counts as stalling in the case of Jiggs' rising pound?

 

[Zankoku]

Stop arguing with me about Planking. I've yet to even give my stance on it lol

 

[MarKO X]

ok, lets try this:

we have planking, everyone can plank, but MK's plank is super invincible broken. Do we ban planking, or do we ban MK?

we have fsmash, everyone has fsmash, but Ike's fsmash does 999% damage in 3 frames. Do we ban fsmashing, or do we ban Ike?

 

[Luxor]

What counts as stalling in the case of Jiggs' rising pound?

I just want this issue out of the way. Rising pound is beatable, and a non-issue because no one does it in Brawl. Melee can decide for itself. You can't make the game unplayable by pounding because other people can punish you for it.

Planking is not the same.

I'm going to bed now lol. Please remember that I'm just debating my view.

 

[theunabletable]

@MarKO: Why wasn't Jiggs banned in Melee, then, with her rising pound stall?

I just want this issue out of the way. Rising pound is beatable, and a non-issue because no one does it in Brawl. Melee can decide for itself. You can't make the game unplayable by pounding because other people can punish you for it.

Planking is not the same.

You can rising pound out of reach of other people where you CAN'T be punished for pounding.

I'm just saying, if Melee has a healthy metagame because of a completely subjective and arbitrary rule, why the hell can't Brawl? They aren't THAT radically different.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So ban MK, right?

Right?


.....seriously?

 

[J4pu]

ok, lets try this:

we have planking, everyone can plank, but MK's plank is super invincible broken. Do we ban planking, or do we ban MK?

we have fsmash, everyone has fsmash, but Ike's fsmash does 999% damage in 3 frames. Do we ban fsmashing, or do we ban Ike?

we have a down special attack, every character has a down special, MK's down special can grant an indefinite amount of continuous invincibility frames. Do we ban using DownB or do we ban MK?
neither, we ban MK's IDC

Spoiler

I'm starting to see a pattern here though

 

[Luxor]

@MarKO: Why wasn't Jiggs banned in Melee, then, with her rising pound stall? You can rising pound out of reach of other people where you CAN'T be punished for pounding.

I'm just saying, if Melee has a healthy metagame because of a completely subjective and arbitrary rule, why the hell can't Brawl? They aren't THAT radically different.

Just popping in to say we're talking about Brawl here. Weird how this turned into another MK discussion, there's a few of these in every subforum now lol.

 

[Spelt]

nobody else can tap a button a few times to stall out down b's hitbox/special effects.

 

[theunabletable]

Just popping in to say we're talking about Brawl here. Weird how this turned into another MK discussion, there's a few of these in every subforum now lol.

I know we're talking about Brawl, but I'm just saying Melee, which has a healthy metagame and is very, very similar to Brawl, has a completely subjective and arbitrary rule against stalling. I don't see how Brawl can't do the same.

I'm trying to give you an example of a solution that worked fine. Sure that was in a different game, but it's a very, very similar game and both tactics did the same thing (stall).

 

[salaboB]

Make the anti-planking rule be two-three ledge grabs (Whatever is deemed reasonable, really) in a row, then you must deal or suffer damage or you're dq'ed if you hit the ledge again.

If you're getting pinned on the edge, you're probably taking hits when you try to get up off it. If you've grabbed it three times, then your opponent knows you're in trouble -- maybe it's your own problem at that point for getting back onto the edge three times without striking (Or committing to a strike enough to have it fail and you got hit).

Total ledge count wouldn't matter and a replay would quickly demonstrate if this had happened.

(I still don't think it's a good idea, but it seems like it would address both the need to not be arbitrary and the "Where should the max limit go?" question)

 

[J4pu]

nobody else can tap a button a few times to stall out down b's hitbox/special effects.

in the example that I was replying to, nobody else's Fsmash had ridiculously broken properties, nobody else's planking was analytically impossible to beat.

the only semi-irrelevant quality is that it wasn't intended to be an option by the game designer, but even then, do you think Sakurai foresaw planking?

Total ledge count wouldn't matter and a replay would quickly demonstrate if this had happened.

not everybody's wii has the infinite replay hack

not to mention you are still adding an arbitrary limit, just with different conditions (consecutive as opposed to total)
the best reason against a LGL that i've heard is that it punishes other characters that aren't completely broken using it and rewards those who can't do it and have a strong on stage game.
the ledge is an integral part of the game and it's use shouldn't be limited for everybody because one character is broken while utilizing it.
/paraphrasing somebody else's post

 

[Spelt]

i don't think it was a glitch or even an oversight that gives everyone 21 possible invincibility frames in which you can do whatever you want with.
brawl is a smack in competitive gaming's face, just like sakurai intended it to be.


oh and melee and brawl aren't as similar as you give them credit for.
really the only notable thing about both of them is that they both contain ledges and percents.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The only perfect anti-planking rule is a rule that bans character(s) who plank well.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think we should ban that DMG guy, he knows too much!

HE'S THE MAIN CULPRIT HERE! I CHARGE HIM WITH BATTERY!

Yes you do, you corrected me on more stuff than any other member on these boards ever has, and I'm serious about this. I demand your arrest immediately.

I recommend Warlock Punch to beat planking, btw.

 

[DMG]

I consider it informing and learning, not correcting.

Also people don't know about that grab release to Warlock Punch on Wario. I wish it didn't connect lol

 

[J4pu]

i don't think it was a glitch or even an oversight that gives everyone 21 possible invincibility frames in which you can do whatever you want with.
brawl is a smack in competitive gaming's face, just like sakurai intended it to be.


oh and melee and brawl aren't as similar as you give them credit for.
really the only notable thing about both of them is that they both contain ledges and percents.

you clearly don't think sakurai's judgement gives any kind of weight to concepts that are incorporated into the game, so where does my comparison go wrong then?

 

[Spelt]

I demand your arrest immediately. .

good luck catching him, especially if he CPs brinstar.

Also people don't know about that grab release to Warlock Punch on Wario. I wish it didn't connect lol

LOL seriously? xD

you clearly don't think sakurai's judgement gives any kind of weight to concepts that are incorporated into the game, so where does my comparison go wrong then?

your comparison was between a clear cut glitch and actual system mechanics.

 

[J4pu]

now think about it, what is the difference between those two?

 

[TwentyTwo]

Is there a particular stage you're looking into this with? Just curious, I mean, planking is dumb and broken apparently, but I would like to see some way to beat it even if it were incredibly impractical.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I consider it informing and learning, not correcting.

Also people don't know about that grab release to Warlock Punch on Wario. I wish it didn't connect lol

thx.

good luck catching him, especially if he CPs brinstar.

Well dang, looks like arrest is impossible.

 

[J4pu]

Is there a particular stage you're looking into this with? Just curious, I mean, planking is dumb and broken apparently, but I would like to see some way to beat it even if it were incredibly impractical.

there's a way to beat it, never be behind in percents or stock to a MK
gg planking

 

[Justblaze647]

Aha This is why you're in the backroom, DMG. I must admit I am impressed by this thread.

Azz kissing aside, MK is officially, and undoubtedly broken. Ban him, or find a way to regulate planking, seeing as how its LITERALLY unbeatable.

 

[DMG]

Most stages follow the 2 edge "standard" layout. On those stages, just about everything stays the same. Frame-wise, nothing changes. Depending on the stage, it can be further beneficial for MK, or slightly hinder him (HOWEVER, framewise it would almost certainly NOT hinder him. Hinder him maybe in the space he can abuse, or certain aspects like lips of stages that Thunder Jolts would hug, or the edges allowing you to "shark" the stage, etc). Something like Frigate would be interesting. Everything would be the same, except that the stage flips momentarily, and that on the transformation with only 1 edge it's harder for MK to run to another edge once he is onstage safely. But that's it really. Aside from certain stages or edges making it slightly harder for MK to be "perfect", but not negatively impacting him significantly, most stages or edges do not change things. Certainly not frame-wise, but like I said concerning stuff like Sharking or how Thunder Jolts would Contour to the stage or how well you can hug the lip.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*frowns and silently sits on the fence*
Well shoot that kinda makes me unsure about MK.

 

[Gnes]

there's a way to beat it, never be behind in percents or stock to a MK
gg planking

theres a way for mk to never be behind in percents

planking

see what i did there

 

[Throwback]

The only perfect anti-planking rule is a rule that bans character(s) who plank too well to the point that they become invincible.

Fixed that for you

 

[Shaya]

Now prove that other characters plankings are not unbeatable and you got yourself a banned character...
Or a rule that specifically applies to meta knight... again.

 

[J4pu]

theres a way for mk to never be behind in percents

planking

see what i did there

firstly that doesn't achieve anything except a tie
2nd, I was saying that mockingly