Planking Info (G&W Added)

[DMG]

Yeah he said it as a joke lol

 

[Sharky]

so I know it's easy enough to vary the timing/invincible cape grab , but how does yoshi's egg (with the two different hitboxes and dropping over the ledge) compare with some of these other projectiles, from a technical perspective? Also, what is yoshi's hugging frame time?

 

[Shaya]

So DMG, when do you tell people that god-like teching Foxs up smash at kill percents smash di in shield may allow people to hog the ledge inbetween mks uair?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Or a rule that specifically applies to meta knight... again.

Why do we keep making rulings based around the limitation of MK?
O_o

 

[Kitamerby]

Why do we keep making rulings based around the limitation of MK?
O_o

Everything in brawl is based around MK.

Stagelists, tier lists, ledge grab limits, stalling bans, character viability, etc.

Hail to the king, baby.

 

[Overswarm]

firstly that doesn't achieve anything except a tie
2nd, I was saying that mockingly

Actually with the current ruleset it doesn't lead to a tie. It leads to a rematch of 1 stock 3 minutes, and then sudden death. With the frame data DMG has shown, it is entirely possible for MK to plank during that as well.







I'd also like to add that running up and powershielding allows you to punish Metaknight with the right character; Falco can do it by running, powershielding, then bairing off stage.

This is only a single hit, requires the MK to u-air you at the same time you shield, potentially puts you at risk for losing a stock, and is ultimately up to the MK whether it can work in the first place but it is still an option.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

For projectiles, I'm curious would Mario's Fireball's be able to stop it? If they are shot at the right angle they do travel past the ledge, or would Metaknight just be able to gain his inviciblity before it hits?

Not useful...

So ban MK, right?

Right?


.....seriously?

DEAR GOD THIS.

This argument is OVER. DMG won. There's literally one last thing to check-how well can Pika, Mario, Pit, and G&W plank. If they are shown to not be able to plank at this level, MK should almost certainly be banned. That, or we get another ******** rule that applies only to him...

we have a down special attack, every character has a down special, MK's down special can grant an indefinite amount of continuous invincibility frames. Do we ban using DownB or do we ban MK?
neither, we ban MK's IDC

Spoiler

I'm starting to see a pattern here though

No other downB has the capability to stall the game indefinitely, and also, it's not downB. It's DownB+tons of very obvious extra inputs.

there's a way to beat it, never be behind in percents or stock to a MK
gg planking

Please be trolling...

So yeah, DMG, you should totally grab the info for G&W and Pit. If their planking is reasonably beatable, then it's over with either the reign of Metaknight or the legitimacy of the BBR.

 

[NickRiddle]

:3
ZSS's d-smash outspaces uair, and can hit MK's down-b as he's appearing, before he grabs the ledge.
Ban ZSS. :D
I like how this data is going to become a ban MK thread.
Good **** guys.

 

[Nanaki]

Most stages follow the 2 edge "standard" layout. On those stages, just about everything stays the same. Frame-wise, nothing changes. Depending on the stage, it can be further beneficial for MK, or slightly hinder him (HOWEVER, framewise it would almost certainly NOT hinder him. Hinder him maybe in the space he can abuse, or certain aspects like lips of stages that Thunder Jolts would hug, or the edges allowing you to "shark" the stage, etc). Something like Frigate would be interesting. Everything would be the same, except that the stage flips momentarily, and that on the transformation with only 1 edge it's harder for MK to run to another edge once he is onstage safely. But that's it really. Aside from certain stages or edges making it slightly harder for MK to be "perfect", but not negatively impacting him significantly, most stages or edges do not change things. Certainly not frame-wise, but like I said concerning stuff like Sharking or how Thunder Jolts would Contour to the stage or how well you can hug the lip.

Probably a dumb comment/question, but I don't really care:

What about Brinstar/Norfair? Can you actually invincible-downB to the ledge continuously even in the lava, or do those stages actually force a confrontation? Though Norfair has a crapton of other ledges you could just snap to...

Spoiler

...inb4lolbrinstarnorfairmkownsthosestagesanyway

 

[Overswarm]

Probably a dumb comment/question, but I don't really care:

What about Brinstar/Norfair? Can you actually invincible-downB to the ledge continuously even in the lava, or do those stages actually force a confrontation? Though Norfair has a crapton of other ledges you could just snap to...

Spoiler

...inb4lolbrinstarnorfairmkownsthosestagesanyway

There are frames when he isn't invincible while doing the down+b, and frames where he isn't invincible away from the ledge.

So yes, they can cause confrontation.

Port Town's lack of ledges, Brinstar's acid, Norfair's lava, and to an extent Yoshi's Island's Ghosts can allow for confrontation.

 

[Flayl]

I believe this thread is LONG overdue, and honestly I am somewhat saddened that it took the community this long to REALLY try to look and see how something such as planking works on a frame basis, but I digress. I am glad that finally some effort has been put into shedding light on this subject, and understanding better how planking as a whole operates.

I'd like to point out that people have been asking for data on planking since the beginning of 2009.

Remember that joke group called Smash workshop? WTF was up with that?

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm, Flayl, Crow, DMG: The real smash workshop

 

[Flayl]

Get some of the more important Gecko codes working in PAL and I'll REALLY be helpful.

edit: it wasn't smash workshop it was smash lab/researchers or something

 

[The Truth!]

Thunder Jolts are bad. In the air, they travel Diagonally down and are easy to avoid. If it clings to the edge, you can try to eat it while invincible, or drop down vertically/not hug the edge so close. Thunderjolt would be REALLY good if Pikachu didn't lag afterwards so dang much. Even if you jump, move forward, shoot it, and follow it, Pikachu can't capitalize on it.

Trust me when I say that Thunderjolts don't stop planking. You can either eat the Thunderjolt while invincible, or if that is not possible you can Down B to the edge safely.

IF that is not enough, you can drop down JUST a sliver, and while Thunder Jolt runs along the edge, then you grab it. If Pika tries to take the edge during this, remember Uair stuffs his options lol.

Great read, but I think not enough time was spent on characters abilities to deal with planking. Granted I say that only judging the stuff said on pika.

Firstly, jolt is far from bad at dealing with planking. It does not get eaten when the character is invincible, it stays out until it either travels away or they lose their invincibility and it hits them. If a jolt is hugging the edge, you cant get back to it until its traveled away or disappeared, and jolts move very slowly and have a large enough arc to disrupt the area long enough to prevent ledge release planking. Not to say that avoiding one or two jolts is impossible, but avoiding a consistent stream of jolts where the pikachu has control over the timing and placement against the strict timing of the MK's planking will soon enough make avoiding the jolts highly unlikely or impossible.

Another thing that needs to be considered is pikachus quick attack. Im not too sure about the specifics, but each piece of pikas QA travels its entire distance in 5 frames, and ledge grabbing will interrupt it. Also the part where he is actually traveling has some really odd priority and/or invincibility. It's a nice way to steal a ledge, and considering pikas quick ledge release and aerials, it puts him in a nice spot to take advantage of invincibility frames against an opponent near the edge. But yeah, no shielding required, you can qa from a safe distance away.

Someone should test all of this, lol.

Also pikachu is a master at planking, lol. Not really, but its fun anyways.

 

[Flayl]

stly, jolt is far from bad at dealing with planking. It does not get eaten when the an character is invincible, it stays out until it either travels away or they lose their invincibility and it hits them.

I've beaten thunderjolts on the ledge as Bowser by dropping and Up-B'ing.

edit: Nevermind, you meant when the character is invincible but doesn't have a hitbox out.

 

[The Truth!]

Yes...if you move away from the ledge in a way that doesn't exploit the invincibility frames you can get around the jolts. I think every character can do that, lol.

 

[Flayl]

I wasn't talking about moving around the jolts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K8yjNM2UaA&#t=01m55s

 

[DMG]

so I know it's easy enough to vary the timing/invincible cape grab , but how does yoshi's egg (with the two different hitboxes and dropping over the ledge) compare with some of these other projectiles, from a technical perspective? Also, what is yoshi's hugging frame time?

Yoshi's Egg is ok. Like the two biggest problems are generally the arc/range, and the startup or the time it takes the egg to finally reach MK. Invincible attacks breaking it also sucks sometimes

So DMG, when do you tell people that god-like teching Foxs up smash at kill percents smash di in shield may allow people to hog the ledge inbetween mks uair?

This has been brought up actually. SDI in shield would potentially allow some characters to hog the edge (some maybe not if they are in the air too long). The problem is that, as I pointed out, for most of the cast taking the edge doesn't accomplish anything as MK is now guaranteed safety to the edge. That, and basically if you can react fast enough to try and SDI while in a shield, you might as well try to Shield drop and punish the MK.

I'd also like to add that running up and powershielding allows you to punish Metaknight with the right character; Falco can do it by running, powershielding, then bairing off stage.

This is only a single hit, requires the MK to u-air you at the same time you shield, potentially puts you at risk for losing a stock, and is ultimately up to the MK whether it can work in the first place but it is still an option.

The main problem with that actually is that as long as MK can fast fall and spaces the Uair well (not perfectly, but well), that you actually can't punish him like that.

The other, smaller problem with that is you are relying on powershielding a 2 frame aerial that he has SOME control over how long he can delay it/when he has to use it.

So yeah, DMG, you should totally grab the info for G&W and Pit. If their planking is reasonably beatable, then it's over with either the reign of Metaknight or the legitimacy of the BBR.

I am, their is some weird data I need someone to check or confirm for me (like when G&W, under normal circumstances, can first grab an edge out of Upb), but once that is done I can move on to G&W (and Pit and even Pika too).

:3
ZSS's d-smash outspaces uair, and can hit MK's down-b as he's appearing, before he grabs the ledge.
Ban ZSS. :D
I like how this data is going to become a ban MK thread.
Good **** guys.

Did you know that MK can jump up and Down B/Tornado at you if you are trying to Dsmash? He can also reverse Shuttle Loop and probably hit you. MAYBE if he is fast and you are barely too close, he can buffer a DJ and Shuttle Loop normally at you. Not sure, I'll see what he can do as she is right there. This is besides the obvious options of avoiding it.

... Unfortunately this was gonna be viewed as a MK banned thread. While he is certainly broken when allowed to plank, this isn't a "GET THE GOD **** BATMAN!" thread lol

 

[NickRiddle]

Did you know that MK can jump up and Down B/Tornado at you if you are trying to Dsmash? He can also reverse Shuttle Loop and probably hit you. MAYBE if he is fast and you are barely too close, he can buffer a DJ and Shuttle Loop normally at you. Not sure, I'll see what he can do as she is right there. This is besides the obvious options of avoiding it. If she is spacing, all MK can do is reverse Shuttle Loop. Even though d-smashing MK isn't the safest thing, I like limiting his options to one. (Other than just dodging it, of course.)

... Unfortunately this was gonna be viewed as a MK banned thread. While he is certainly broken when allowed to plank, this isn't a "GET THE GOD **** BATMAN!" thread lol

Of course it is. *Waits for this thread to be quoted in the "Official MK Discussion" thread.*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

To The Batmobile

 

[The Truth!]

I wasn't talking about moving around the jolts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K8yjNM2UaA&#t=01m55s

Oh yeah, MK cant do that. Transcendent priority sword.

Anyways, I get the general feeling other characters options werent well thought out, tested, and in some cases appear to be wrong.

 

[DMG]

You sure Nick? I thought he could Down B, and angle it kinda upwards near your head and he would land right on top of her head or around that area with the back of his sword. I'll go look at that, that would be kinda ****** to punish people that way lol. Maybe you can't if it's spaced REALLY well/depends on the lip. That would be kind of cool to know.

 

[swordgard]

Thanks for your guide on how to plank, I'm gonna be using MK as secondary now.

 

[NickRiddle]

You sure Nick? I thought he could Down B, and angle it kinda upwards near your head and he would land right on top of her head or around that area with the back of his sword. I'll go look at that, that would be kinda ****** to punish people that way lol. Maybe you can't if it's spaced REALLY well/depends on the lip. That would be kind of cool to know.

Maybe if he does that, but I'm not sure if he can. I'll test that later today, and record my findings. :3

 

[Overswarm]

Thanks for your guide on how to plank, I'm gonna be using MK as secondary now.

 

[Justblaze647]

^ Funniest thing about that is that no words are necessary lol ^

 

[DMG]

JOIN ME LINK!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Dear God almighty, MK just took a level in Akuma, yes, the comparison is fair now.


This is too powerful to be left alone, unless there's some way to discretely enforcably ban this, this is game. Simple abuse: stay on the ledge until your opponent is close enough to threaten you, then start refreshing invincibility.



I don't think it's possible to stall infinitely with Jiggs, I think she falls slowly even when frame perfect. Regardless, prevention of using rising pound twice in a row deals with it if needed.

 

[Overswarm]

Dear God almighty, MK just took a level in Akuma, yes, the comparison is fair now.

But I will anyway.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

 

[memphischains]

* sigh *

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[NickRiddle]

Nothing can hit MK's down-b as he's appearing before he grabs the ledge if the down-b is sweetspotted

I kinda wanna challenge that...

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[CRASHiC]

This is a bigger defeat than when Nick beat Afro at rock paper siczors.

 

[DMG]

I'm not sure if the Shield SDI would work on Uair. It has shield stun, but not hit lag or nothing more than a frame of hit lag if what his frame data thread says is correct. If that is your time frame to try and SDI, honestly you probably would not be able to travel the distance required to fall off the edge. You also have to consider that you are trying to not only SDI off the edge, but you are counter balancing the force that MK's Uair "pushes you" back. I don't know if the push his Uair gives is too much for you in theory to SDI in shield, and in practice it might not even matter/be possible humanly.

 

[Pierce7d]

DMG too good.

Also, I'd just like to point out something really quick. MK does not need Uair to plank. If he has near frame perfect timing (3 frames) he can plank you exclusively with DownB.

46 Invincibility Frames.
21 Usable ones after ledge drop
18 Frames until 9 more invincibility frames are granted from Dimension Cape
MK resnaps the edge and repeats. No Uair necessary.

If you hog the edge, MK can move onto the stage. From there, he has 27 frames of cool down BUT you can't do anything for 24 frames. This means you need a move that has enough range to hit MK FROM the edge that hits on frame three. ATM only POSSIBLY Pit's Uair comes to mind.

Also, I believe Sheik may be able to combat Planking. All of her special moves, excepting DownB (lol) have some sort of use against it, ESPECIALLY SideB.

LOL @ Pikachu and Sheik being the ones most most likely to be able to beat MKs planking.

MK: "Victory is my destiny, and I shall take it from the ledge."
Shiek and Pikachu: "Have you no respect for you ancestors?!?! We ruled this ledge far before you were ever freed from your trophy base, in 64 and Melee, long before your time."

*sigh* Sakurai

 

[DMG]

I already mentioned the Down B Invincible planking actually Pierce.

Also Pierce, it's not 24 frames entirely. Like 24 frames is where people are stuck. 25th frame they can Ledge Attack, Ledge Roll, use Ledge specific options. Frame 26 they can drop down/is the first frame they can drop down. THEN, you can think about using an aerial. So that 3 frame window you listed... isn't there for other characters lol

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[DMG]

I thought Shield SDI occurred the same time as shield push back? Hmm. Interesting.

In either case, yeah if your time frame is... a single frame, the odds of you doing it successfully is already small, coupled with the fact that you might not be able to move far enough.

 

[_OraNoS_]

I kinda wanna challenge that...

something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TEKizHg9wk#t=0m40s