"PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale": Sony's version of Super Smash Bros.

[Jinkwai]

I will be very upset with superbot if there are items that kill. This throws off the variance a ton unless the consequence for the item is very heavy.

 

[soviet prince]

as long as you can turn them off it wont matter

 

[Shorts]

Youre being extra picky

No, he's right. That's awful. REALLY, REALLY BAD. If you thought Brawl's menu designed sucked... theirs is going to be AWFUL.

 

[Bionichute]

No, he's right. That's awful. REALLY, REALLY BAD. If you thought Brawl's menu designed sucked... theirs is going to be AWFUL.

No, he's just nit picking unimportant things. Do you really CARE about the character select screen? It's not like you'll be looking at it that much.

 

[Link360]

Ratchet's Level One already looking like another Diving Murray, hoping it isn't broken at launch, I really want this game to be extra balanced given it's super only kill nature : /

 

[Jinkwai]

as long as you can turn them off it wont matter

Yeah but I was really hoping we wouldn't have to. I liked the idea of completely balanced gameplay when you play the game naturally. Having items that didn't directly win the game went with the whole philososphy of victory based on only supers and the player's ability to perform them. You don't die from stage hazards so why can't items be the same?

Plus, I liked the idea of items essentially adding to a character's moveset/options to help with certian matchups. Very dissapointed.

 

[Spire]

No, he's just nit picking unimportant things. Do you really CARE about the character select screen? It's not like you'll be looking at it that much.

Yeah I do care, because I look at the character select screens a lot. I care about design. I care about interface. Why? Because if it looks like total **** I won't feel as inclined to open the menu and pick a character ergo play the game. That's the screen that you and your buddies might just leave on for a while. If it's gonna look like ****, then it better be **** and not modern gaming of 2012 where interface design has been thoroughly explored aesthetically, where better designs can be found by googling fan-made rosters.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Also, I'm okay with Dante's special transforming him into red coat/white hair Dante. Makes enough sense. After all, it's just a younger version.

?

I was under the impression that "classic Dante" was Devil Trigger.

 

[lordvaati]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDY-fCIIqPM

if this Vita screen is a hint, we may only get 20 characters after all.

 

[~automatic]

So... no clones?

 

[lordvaati]

except for Evil Cole

on better news,they will return with new stuff at PAX.

 

[theeboredone]

?

I was under the impression that "classic Dante" was Devil Trigger.

The new dmc game has Dante triggering to his old look. Honestly, I figure they tossed it in to appease old fans...or spite them.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

The new dmc game has Dante triggering to his old look. Honestly, I figure they tossed it in to appease old fans...or spite them.

The way Spire said it made me think he was talking about him becoming younger, like this DmC Dante is just Dante but older




It was to appease, you know it was.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I will be very upset with superbot if there are items that kill. This throws off the variance a ton unless the consequence for the item is very heavy.

As far as I know (been told) some items do kill, but they provide a negative point. Killing through Supers give you a positive point.

So basically, I understand from what I've been told that killing with items is basically a bad idea... unless, imo, there's a mode where any type of KO counts (because otherwise, I have no idea why they would implement an item that kills that works like an SD)

This, or I really misunderstood things, lol

 

[Link360]

That picture with Ryu Hayabusa on the website combined with the leaks means we'd have at least 21 characters though, right?

 

[Shorts]

No, he's just nit picking unimportant things. Do you really CARE about the character select screen? It's not like you'll be looking at it that much.

The presentation of the game matters a lot. It looks sloppy, and that reflects poorly on the game itself.

 

[STEM]

As far as I know (been told) some items do kill, but they provide a negative point. Killing through Supers give you a positive point.

So basically, I understand from what I've been told that killing with items is basically a bad idea... unless, imo, there's a mode where any type of KO counts (because otherwise, I have no idea why they would implement an item that kills that works like an SD)

This, or I really misunderstood things, lol

Maybe they make the opponent lose a point?

 

[Jinkwai]

I still don't like the idea of weapons that kill if it creates a point differential. Takes away the focus of the match. Also means less skilled players can win without performing supers.

 

[theeboredone]

And I'd like to reiterate it's probably not gonna matter, cause items will be BANNED in tournament play. It's more for FFA and perhaps other stuff. Personally, I like my FFAs with sometimes items, and sometimes not. FFAs IMO are just meant to have fun, so items make the game more chaotic.

Also, I hope some items alter characters move sets. Brawl somewhat introduced it with the beam sword. I want that to be expanded upon in this game. If there is a "beam sword" in this game, imagine Raiden or Dante dual wielding it with their current sword.

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

Ryu, Jin, Toomba, & Crash are still rumored so I guess if all true, thats 24 characters, don't know if they'll go to 25 or maybe even 30

 

[Jinkwai]

And I'd like to reiterate it's probably not gonna matter, cause items will be BANNED in tournament play. It's more for FFA and perhaps other stuff. Personally, I like my FFAs with sometimes items, and sometimes not. FFAs IMO are just meant to have fun, so items make the game more chaotic.

Also, I hope some items alter characters move sets. Brawl somewhat introduced it with the beam sword. I want that to be expanded upon in this game. If there is a "beam sword" in this game, imagine Raiden or Dante dual wielding it with their current sword.

That's my issue. Assuming items are well-balanced, why should we just automatically ban them? This isn't smash. It's objectively different. Items in smash are naturally more chaotic because they vary so much in power level and effect. Based on what has been revealed so far, the items in All-Stars seem pretty evenly powered and don't directly cause someone to lose/win.

They also give characters with bad match-ups a chance to win. Since there are characters with certain weaknesses, items can adjust that character's moveset and offer options they normally would not have.

It pressures both players. Will the losing player go for the item or try to comeback? Should the winning player worry about the item? That type of drama would make the game more interesting to watch, which is something we should care a little about. There is no competitive fighting game with items. All-Stars could be the first.

Not to mention the tournament scene will stagnate a lot quicker without items. It will simply be moveset vs moveset everytime. Items can mix things up in a healthy way.

Of course, this is all under the assumption that items are balanced.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Because items add that extra bit of randomness to the game. Like, if specific items always spawned in the same place at the same time each match, then they could be taken advantage of and used in competitive play, but just the fact that you'll never know what you could get, you could possibly only get or not get certain items, and that youll never know where they show up, could tip the scales in another player's favor just due to the luck of a draw. If a helpful item spawns in an easily obtainable area for one player, since there is no way of knowing where it couldve been to begin with, it can ruin the other player's chances of success just due to a random occurrence.

 

[Jinkwai]

Because items add that extra bit of randomness to the game. Like, if specific items always spawned in the same place at the same time each match, then they could be taken advantage of and used in competitive play, but just the fact that you'll never know what you could get, you could possibly only get or not get certain items, and that youll never know where they show up, could tip the scales in another player's favor just due to the luck of a draw. If a helpful item spawns in an easily obtainable area for one player, since there is no way of knowing where it couldve been to begin with, it can ruin the other player's chances of success just due to a random occurrence.

That is true but you could also think of it this way:

Convenient or not, a player is taking time away from the main objective to get the item, which (as far as we know) doesn't directly affect the win results. Also, they are risking more consistent means of gaining momentum for a slightly larger reward. Not to mention the item itself has its own trade-offs. If a player is dependent soley on the luck of the draw, they will more than likely lose to the consistency of better players. It's the Smash Ball conundrum on a much smaller scale. Most people will chase after the smash ball to get that big reward. Smarter players punish other players for chasing that smash ball.

By the way, I'm really hoping Superbot is reading this. They have an opportunity here that I really don't want them to screw up.

 

[SmashChu]

Jinkwai is right. You have to at least test them out. Only after then can you really say it's bad or not.

It's very closed minded to ban them outright.

 

[theeboredone]

You can at least test them out, but it's not gonna get you far. The moment an epic match going down to the wire with 10 seconds left ends with an item that can kill spawning next to a player, the **** is gonna hit the fan.

I might consider leaving room for non-killing items, so long as the advantage isn't that devastating. I'm not sure if you can block the RPG, but it seems to only have one way of aiming (horizontal), and that can give the opponent a chance to close the distance.

 

[lordvaati]

also don't forget allthe limitations items have here:

-you can only pick them up by stopping movement entirely.

-you cannot throw items, unless the item is designed to be thrown.

-you can discard them,but they just land stating up, so they can't be used like projectiles here.

-you cannot block, grab, or use specials while holding an item

-items only spawn in the left, right, or middle of pretty much every stage(it doesn't just randomly appear in front of the loser here.)

-when an item reaches it's use limit, it vanishes entirely.


now if that doesn't warrant testing,I don't know what the f*** does. as the saying goes, new game, new rules.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I didnt say Im just going to ban them outright, Ill definitely try them out before making a decisions, I was just giving one of the main reasons that items are normally banned.

 

[Jinkwai]

I'm glad we can all see eye to eye to some extent. I just want some open-mindedness and willingness to experiment, not go against a community. I'm not trying to be Mr. Wizard. lol

Speaking of which...We will have to accept a couple things. If Evo ever does this game, there will be items. If Sony does a huge tournament, there will be items. Better for players to immediately deal with that now than be pissed off about it later.

 

[PDOT]

**** items

 

[theeboredone]

Speaking of which...We will have to accept a couple things. If Evo ever does this game, there will be items. If Sony does a huge tournament, there will be items. Better for players to immediately deal with that now than be pissed off about it later.

You make this sound like it will be 100% true. Unless there's some statement that says "we will have to accept a couple of things", then stop making such assumptions.

I know Brawl had items at Evo...and it failed miserably. What makes you think this is some guarantee? Especially if it would only drive away the competitive players. If they were to try that stuff, it would probably fail, and they would quickly change to no items later on.

And I can count on Sony to be smart and not include items in tournaments later on. They might do something like a midnight release with items tournament, but no way in hell would it become a consistent strategy. So long this game has a "random" factor in how items work, people are not going to want it.

 

[Jem.]

You still need to test items though to prove its pure random.

You know there WAS a day when items were legal in melee in tournament play. Prime example: My first tournament in 2003. Items were on at a national with 151 entrants ($50 entry fee). It showed items shouldn't be involved in tournament play.

Doesn't hurt to try a tournament with items on, unless its blatantly obvious they don't belong.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I plan on doing a midnight tournament with friends on release, and for that Ill have items off just cuz I dont want to have to deal with figuring it out right away, but after that, ill personally be testing and trying out the items to decide whether or not ill keep them off and ill probably give them at least one chance in a tournament.

 

[Jinkwai]

You make this sound like it will be 100% true. Unless there's some statement that says "we will have to accept a couple of things", then stop making such assumptions.

I know Brawl had items at Evo...and it failed miserably. What makes you think this is some guarantee? Especially if it would only drive away the competitive players. If they were to try that stuff, it would probably fail, and they would quickly change to no items later on.

And I can count on Sony to be smart and not include items in tournaments later on. They might do something like a midnight release with items tournament, but no way in hell would it become a consistent strategy. So long this game has a "random" factor in how items work, people are not going to want it.

You have a point. I only know as much as you know, so we should avoid assumptions. However, when you look at Evo's philosophies towards how a game is supposed to be played and their history with a similar title, it's not a crazy assumption to make. I can't speak for Sony at all, but I can see items being implemented in their own tournament so that they can display the "full experience" of this game. But like I said, neither of us know for sure, but there are good reasons on either side. I'm thinking of it from an entertainment perspective. You're thinking of it from a competitive perspective.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

It's going to be hard to focus on the battles, thanks to those stages.

I'm all for scenery, but this is going too far. They're too epic.

 

[Jinkwai]

lol. Yeah, but epic in a good way. Big in a not-so-good way.

 

[SmashChu]

You can at least test them out, but it's not gonna get you far. The moment an epic match going down to the wire with 10 seconds left ends with an item that can kill spawning next to a player, the **** is gonna hit the fan.

I might consider leaving room for non-killing items, so long as the advantage isn't that devastating. I'm not sure if you can block the RPG, but it seems to only have one way of aiming (horizontal), and that can give the opponent a chance to close the distance.

also don't forget allthe limitations items have here:

-you can only pick them up by stopping movement entirely.

-you cannot throw items, unless the item is designed to be thrown.

-you can discard them,but they just land stating up, so they can't be used like projectiles here.

-you cannot block, grab, or use specials while holding an item

-items only spawn in the left, right, or middle of pretty much every stage(it doesn't just randomly appear in front of the loser here.)

-when an item reaches it's use limit, it vanishes entirely.


now if that doesn't warrant testing,I don't know what the f*** does. as the saying goes, new game, new rules.

The problem is (and it's a big flaw of the competitive Smash community) that you can walk in with predetermined bias.

And also, everything must be fair game. Like I said before in this thread, the community goes backwards when it blindly bans something. You have no way to know how it impacts the game until you see it in real play.

It's not hard, but it seems like trying to pull teeth around here.

 

[~automatic]

I'm all for scenery, but this is going too far. They're too epic.

I remember when I found out the barrel in Jungle Japes was an outhouse.

 

[Jinkwai]

The problem is (and it's a big flaw of the competitive Smash community) that you can walk in with predetermined bias.

And also, everything must be fair game. Like I said before in this thread, the community goes backwards when it blindly bans something. You have no way to know how it impacts the game until you see it in real play.

It's not hard, but it seems like trying to pull teeth around here.

QFT. It's a slippery slope.

When the game comes out, I plan on streaming two tournaments of this game: One with items and one without. My goal is to see the appeal of each one to players and audience members alike.

 

[lordvaati]

on the topic, a new feature was revealed: Minions

wonder what part they will play? maybe they are the "killing items"from the leak?

oh, and Japan is getting the gameon November 8th, before US and Europe. odd.

 

[Bionichute]

on the topic, a new feature was revealed: Minions

whoa where did they reveal this