Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[zeldspazz]

Zelda is better offstage against Lucas than vise versa imo :\ It may just be bias, but if Zelda puts Lucas in a position to PKT, then you're pretty much asking for a free LK.

:\

 

[Chuee]

Zelda is better offstage against Lucas than vise versa imo :\ It may just be bias, but if Zelda puts Lucas in a position to PKT, then you're pretty much asking for a free LK.

:\

Lucas can absorb dins. Even if it sends him low he can always DJ --> Tether.

 

[zeldspazz]

Seriously. Stop talking about Dins. Zelda wont use it if Lucas can absorb it.

I have to go to sleep, can someone else take it from here >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

Isn't there a certain community where the #2 has no disadvantaged matchups, while the #1 spot does?

Also I feel if it was matchup based, it needs to be weighted. Having a matchup that is good against a more popular character / character with a lot of advantageous matchups would matter more then a less popular character / character with a lot of disadvantageous matchups.

Um not really.
A matchup based tierlis that is not weighted is ost accurate in terms of character capability.
A weighted matchup is most accurate in terms of metagame behavior.

Take your pic


SF3 has that, it is often debated that chunli is better than yun due to hitting harder despite disadvantaged matchups.

While Yun is mr no weakness.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

: /
Double Jump + Airdodge.

 

[SuSa]

If my character went 70:30 against the top half of the cast, 50:50 with 1/4 of the cast, and 40:60 with the last bottom 1/4th of the cast. And another character went 55-45 with the top half of the cast, and 60-40 with the bottom half. Which is the best character when it comes to capability?

Not that that should/would ever be the case. Just saying....


Also I think he also has a non-weighted matchup list, below the weighted one.

 

[Albert.]

I think Lucas's speed might give him the adv. VS Zelda

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i have played the lucas vs zelda match hundreds of times and i think zelda has the advantage in it. The whole match boils down to punishment and thats something zelda does better b/c lucas smashes are to slow. plus when you know lucas has to recover and can't tether you can chase him off the stage or even throw out a dins to dmg him (just saying zelda does have some options when lucas is off the stage and that din is only 90% useless in this match) But back to what i was saying this is a match that is completely about punishment and zelda does that better with faster and stronger moves. lucas up-smash is to slow and laggy, most the time his d-smash has the same problem as his up-smash, his f-smash is good and is his one good weapon. Zelda's f-smash is more or less null now b/c of di but if it hits its pretty strong but mostly null, her up-smash good speed can kill, d-smash fast and sends at a nice angle, up-tilt when it hits can be a monster, and her f-tilt is not bad ether. Also at the beginning of the match zelda can just spam dins to try to get lucas to approach (may not work but no harm in it) while from across the stage lucas only has his up-b which can reach zelda which he wont use b/c of the dins spam. This will force lucas to try to get into mid range which is his best range but knowing this the zelda can get into a good spot on the field so in the end the lucas will has to approach and the zelda will be waiting for him. Now what lucas does have over zelda is his air attacks. these can be annoying but they are easy to shield or dodged and can be punished which brings me back to my first point which is the match is about punishment which zelda is better at.

Thats why i think zelda has a advantage in this mu

 

[Justblaze647]

I think Luigi is due for a rise. I think HE is the most underrated character in the game (maybe next to PT), and he is MOST CERTAINLY BETTER THAN MARIO.

 

[PKNintendo]

I actually agree with this list.

A year ago I'd say NOZ NESSZ IZ DA BEST. And I'd ***** about Mario being there but now I'm smarter.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

i Think Luigi Is Due For A Rise. I Think He Is The Most Underrated Character In The Game (maybe Next To Pt), And He Is Most Certainly Better Than Mario.

It's Not A List It's A Rough Outline, Mario Is Not Above Luigi.

Thank You Good Sir, Have A Nice Day

 

[PKNintendo]

Also I find that I'm starting to agree with nearly everything A2 has to say.

 

[orange/xd]

Snake at 4th? I dont understand

 

[Justblaze647]

It's Not A List It's A Rough Outline

The title of the thread is "Predictions for Tier List v4"

I made a prediction.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Also I find that I'm starting to agree with nearly everything A2 has to say.

That's not necessarily a good thing.

Pierce, are you going to address G&W more? I'm interested in your followup on him.

 

[Kewkky]

I think Luigi is due for a rise. I think HE is the most underrated character in the game (maybe next to PT), and he is MOST CERTAINLY BETTER THAN MARIO.

I think that Kirby's the most underrated. Think about it: everyone says he's not as good as they thought, and want him to drop because of it... Sure, he might drop and all, but people are even going as far as to put him in C Tier, where it's a little insane considering how good his traits are, and his tourney results considering how little representation he has (just like any other non-top tier)...

But that's just my opinion, wrapped around in a troll-baiting tortilla.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Kewkky was actually referring to G&W!
I can't believe some think he is top of C material :|

(but really Kirby is good yo)

 

[Justblaze647]

Agreed.

Kirby is not C tier material.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lol Kirby is definitely not C-tier by the current SWF list.
However I can see him being the tier he is on this list.

 

[Kewkky]

Phi1ny3, I don't know how to take that comment. He's #13 and ranked "A" in SWF's tierlist, and here he's #13 and ranked "C"...

 

[phi1ny3]

He's B-tier on SWF's imo, but if we're talking C on SWF's list, there's something wrong.

 

[Uffe]

i have played the lucas vs zelda match hundreds of times and i think zelda has the advantage in it. The whole match boils down to punishment and thats something zelda does better b/c lucas smashes are to slow.

You say that as if Lucas misses the majority of the time when he uses his smash attacks.

plus when you know lucas has to recover and can't tether you can chase him off the stage or even throw out a dins to dmg him (just saying zelda does have some options when lucas is off the stage and that din is only 90% useless in this match)

Din's Fire unfortunately blasts the person upward and never downward, thus making it easier for Lucas to come back. Another thing, they have Zap Jumping which launches them straight up into the air. A regular PK Thunder 2 nor his tether is always necessary when he's got another option.

But back to what i was saying this is a match that is completely about punishment and zelda does that better with faster and stronger moves. lucas up-smash is to slow and laggy, most the time his d-smash has the same problem as his up-smash, his f-smash is good and is his one good weapon.

Lucas' smash attacks may be slow but they're very lethal. His u-smash has a wide radius, so if you don't expect it, it could very well kill you early in the match. Another thing, about punishment, Lucas' tilts come out pretty quick and he can space himself with PK Fire despite the fact that Zelda can reflect it. Overall, Lucas doesn't even need to rely so much on his smash attacks to harm Zelda.

Zelda's f-smash is more or less null now b/c of di but if it hits its pretty strong but mostly null, her up-smash good speed can kill, d-smash fast and sends at a nice angle, up-tilt when it hits can be a monster, and her f-tilt is not bad ether. Also at the beginning of the match zelda can just spam dins to try to get lucas to approach (may not work but no harm in it) while from across the stage lucas only has his up-b which can reach zelda which he wont use b/c of the dins spam. This will force lucas to try to get into mid range which is his best range but knowing this the zelda can get into a good spot on the field so in the end the lucas will has to approach and the zelda will be waiting for him.

Neither one really needs to approach. Din's Fire won't be harming Lucas if he's using his PSI Magnet. She's got an attack that'd usually make her opponent approach, but Lucas can just counter that with his PSI Magnet. So you never really know who's going to approach first.

 

[Kewkky]

Kirby's tourney rankings...

May/June '08: #11
June/July '08: #15
July/August '08: #12
August/September '08: #11
Fall '08: #12
Winter '08/'09: #10
February/March '09: #12
Spring '09: #18
May/June '09: #16
Summer '09: #12
August/September '09: #11

So, his average ranking due to tourney placings (and ONLY tourney placings) would be 12.72, which would mean, in tourney placings, the top placers would be:

1) MK (1.18)
2) Snake (1.82)
3) DDD (4.27)
4) Falco (5.55)
5) Wario (5.64)
6) Marth (6.18)
7) Diddy (7.91)
8) G&W (8.36)
9) ROB (9.91)
10) ICs (10.91)
11) Olimar (11.18)
12) Lucario (12.00)
13) Kirby (12.72)
14) Pikachu (14.09)
*...) DK (14.81)
*...) ZSS (16.18)
*...) TL (19.09)

*(...)'s were for the ones that aren't exactly "top placers", which I could only find the rankings if I did ALL the characters' rankings.


I don't intend to prove anything, nor to tell you guys that this was the reason that I believe Kirby should stay #13 or "A tier" (I main him, so I know what he's capable of... Ankoku's Tourney Results thread was just the source of something I could use)... But I hope you can see what I mean by saying: Kirby's perfect where he is right now.


PS: Tourney placings are the results of applying a characters' traits to the top levels of play (top 8 in a tourney)... Some tourneys may be small or big, and others filled with noobs or pros, but Ankoku devised the rankings system to fix this problem by giving National-size Tourneys more points for reaching top 8, than smaller, local ones... Which means the top characters of the game are actually what they are: the top characters of the game, since even in large tourneys they manage to place high.

 

[phi1ny3]

That would explain the difference in opinion.
I felt that lucario was slightly overrated in the early days of smash, even when he was taking good spots.
Results fluctuate, especially when certain character types bound up because people don't learn the MU and things like that,
ex. Ness during the summer.

It sounds like stupidly theorycrafting, but I judge by tools/MU, with tourney results to help bolster some of those as proof to an extent.

 

[xDD-Master]

S-Tier

#1

+ Nado !!!
+ Very quick and lagless moves
+ Priority...
+ 5 jumps
+ Best gimping game
+ Best recovery
- Low aerial mobility
- Lightweight
- No projectile

#2
+ Nades !!!
+ Very disjointed and strong tilts (Uptilt)
+ Can kill with nearly every other move
+ Lives forever
- A little bit slow
- Aerials take hours

#3
+ Bananas !!!
+ Quick Character in general
+ Good set-ups for killing with naners
+ A lot of combo-potential
- Lacks in killing power
- Gimpable Recovery

#4
+ Fart !!!
+ Crazy aerial mobility
+ Camping-game
+ Heavy
- Grab releases
- Lacks in range ~ no projectile

#5
+ Infinites !!!
+ Desynching !!!
+ Strong smashes
+ Good projectile & Blizzard wall
- Nana !!!
- If Seperated / Solo Popo

A-Tier

#6
+ Crazy grab-range ~ Chaingrabs / Infinites !!!
+ Good range in general
+ 4 Jumps & Good recovery (SA-Frames)
+ Very heavy
- Gets chaingrabbed
- Slow

#7
+ Chaingrab (to dair or other combos) !!!
+ Lasers ~ Very good camping-game
+ Good set-ups for killing
+ Good combo-game
- Gets chaingrabbed
- Predictable & Gimpable recovery

#8
+ Range !!!
+ Good grab-game
+ Good juggle-game
+ Good kill-moves if tippered
- Bad kill-moves if not tippered
- Recovery is predictable

B-Tier & Rest
...
​

 

[Kewkky]

That would explain the difference in opinion.
I felt that lucario was slightly overrated in the early days of smash, even when he was taking good spots.
Results fluctuate, especially when certain character types bound up because people don't learn the MU and things like that,
ex. Ness during the summer.

It sounds like stupidly theorycrafting, but I judge by tools/MU, with tourney results to help bolster some of those as proof to an extent.

This is true, however... When it comes to averages, if you have lots of results pointing to one thing (for example, 10 results of #10), and one or two results pointing to another thing (for example, 2 results of #15), the changes are minimal ([10*10+15*2]/[10+2]=#10.83)... And even less noticeable if other characters are fluctuating as well (unless everyone gets better and that one character suddenly gets worse, and stay that way).

I know it's kind of unreliable to an extent, but my point has been to show that Kirby has been keeping the averaged #12-#13 spot in the Character Rankings, even while all other characters' metagames progressed, discoveries were made, people learnt MU's, etc etc etc.


EDIT: The complete list (finally, took me like an hour) is:

1) MK (1.18)
2) Snake (1.82)
3) DDD (4.27)
4) Falco (5.55)
5) Wario (5.64)
6) Marth (6.18)
7) Diddy (7.91)
8) G&W (8.36)
9) ROB (9.91)
10) ICs (10.91)
11) Olimar (11.18)
12) Lucario (12.00)
13) Kirby (12.72)
14) Pikachu (14.09)
15) DK (14.81)
16) ZSS (16.18)
17) Wolf (17.81)
18) Pit (18.64)
19) Peach (18.72)
20) TL (19.09)
21) Sonic (21.18)
22) Fox (21.63)
23) Luigi (22.18)
24) PT (22.55)
25) Zelda/Sheik (24.81)
26) Ike (25.18)
27) Ness (25.81)
28) Lucas (27.82)
29) Yoshi (29.27)
30) Bowser (29.63)
31) Samus (30.00)
32) Mario (30.45)
33) Link (30.64)
34) Jigglypuff (31.72)
35) C. Falcon (33.18)
36) Ganondorf (33.90)


Remember that numbers keep fluctuating, so meh. The point of my calculations is to point out that Kirby has been living around #12 and #13 spots in the tourney list, no matter how the metagame changed.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol people need to stop theory crafting Lucas vs. Zelda. I'll $10 MM any Zelda player.

Also, people need to realize how stupid good Falco and Snake are and stop thinking IC's are amazing just because they can infinite everyone.

 

[Nefarious B]

Also, people need to realize how stupid good Falco and Snake are and stop thinking IC's are amazing just because they can infinite everyone.

Agreed. Falco and Snake are monsters, I don't see how anyone can post them outside of the top 5. They both are too amazing against the top.

And ICs are good but not top 5 material. Maybe sixth, that's really the highest I can see them getting though. The matchup pretty much comes down to how easily they can get the grab through desynche setups, and continue it, and many characters have good ways to either avoid the grab or stop it from continuing in the first place.

 

[PKNintendo]

That's not necessarily a good thing.

Pierce, are you going to address G&W more? I'm interested in your followup on him.

Too true. But I found out that I was a waaaaaaaaaay to brash than I give credit.

 

[chimpact]

Where's the topic with diddy kong.....

 

[Jupz]

Where's the topic with diddy kong.....

yeah i wanted to read it aswell

 

[4nace]

Ice Climbers just got alot worse!

It turns out any character can get out of chain grabs now with a new AT called Falcon Kick! It's actually really easy to do and definitely will affect Ice Climbers on the tier list.




How to perform: If you are grabbed by an ice climber, simply swing your controller stick around in a clockwise motion. Then take your right foot and kick your opponent's hands as hard as you can knocking the controller out of their hands.

 

[Technodeath]

i dont think that idea would fly. brawl would turn into a real life smash fest.. which still would be interesting

 

[smashkng]

Ice Climbers just got alot worse!

It turns out any character can get out of chain grabs now with a new AT called Falcon Kick! It's actually really easy to do and definitely will affect Ice Climbers on the tier list.




How to perform: If you are grabbed by an ice climber, simply swing your controller stick around in a clockwise motion. Then take your right foot and kick your opponent's hands as hard as you can knocking the controller out of their hands.

That's cheating! And only works offline.
Some characters have like Snake can easily knock off IC. MK can also easily knock off with dair (but should never mess up). I mean it's not easy to grab with IC. They have slow mobility, poor range in most moves and poor grab range. So the grab is going to be very hard to land for characters that easily prevents them to approach.

 

[Yonder]

B-Tier & Rest
...
[/CENTER]

*sigh* I hate when people only write the same known about points about the top tiers and don't focus on the lower tiers at all. I could understand sorta since we all sorta lazy lol, but the top tier looks alot more stable then the lower tiers...more discussion on the lower tiers

 

[Matador]

and he is MOST CERTAINLY BETTER THAN MARIO.

Why? Why is Luigi "better" than Mario?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Why? Why is Luigi "better" than Mario?

Overall better aerials.
Better killing power (besides gimping)
Better recovery
The slide (it's an advantage for luigi's moveset, imo)

 

[B!squick]

Still waiting for the "entire cast" part of the overview. :/

 

[smashkng]

Overall better aerials.
Better killing power (besides gimping)
Better recovery
The slide (it's an advantage for luigi's moveset, imo)

Yes, his extremely low traction wrecks Diddy's banana game, but it also prevents shieldgrabs and things like that.

 

[xDD-Master]

*sigh* I hate when people only write the same known about points about the top tiers and don't focus on the lower tiers at all. I could understand sorta since we all sorta lazy lol, but the top tier looks alot more stable then the lower tiers...more discussion on the lower tiers

I find them boring xD

Maybe I will finish my list sometimes :o