Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Nefarious B]

If I were to make a prediction as to how ZSS will do, I'd say she'll pass up Kirby, Lucario, and ROB. The way those characters will end up ordered IMO will be:
ZSS
Lucario
ROB
Kirby

ROB has 2 hard counters and one soft counter, with solid matchups besides those.

Kirby has disadvtanges against a lot of characters in the high/top tier, including the increasingly popular ICs who counter Kirby.

Lucario has tough matchups against Marth DDD GaW (MK?) and Snake.

ZSS has her one terribad matchup in Falco (35-65), and after that Diddy is argued between 40-60 and 45-55, and then she has a couple 45-55s, which is definitely a better matchup spread then the three above characters.

I would argue that she is better matchup wise than GaW by a fairly large margin, which is why I think she should pass him up as well. However, I don't think the SBR is ready to make that move, so if we're making a -prediction- for where she'll be, 11th or 12th is a safe bet IMO, though she really should be 10th.

 

[stingers]

who are robs 2 hard counters?

mk and who? zss?

nobody does the infinite on us so it never really ends up mattering

soft counter is ddd i guess? i buy that

mk and ddd are robs 2 most annoying matchups imo...i mean if a ROB just picks up Falco he automatically beats ddd and zss and then has a pretty good matchup against MK to go with it...

 

[mountain_tiger]

whats with the ice climbers being so high in the OP. They arent that good if u know how to deal with them. They has such a small grab range and can be seperated and gimped by some characters easily. Not to mention the possiblility of the ice climber user screwing up the chain grab.

The idea of screwing up the chaingrab isn't considered when making the tier list, because it assumes that the people in question are playing at the maximum possible level. Also, the main reason they're so high is because their desyncs screw over a fair few characters, and also, don't you think 'one mistake = one stock' is kind of scary?

^And this guy is a f*cking troll^

By your logic, he's quoting an opinion, which is allowed.

c wat i did thar?

who are robs 2 hard counters?

mk and who? zss?

nobody does the infinite on us so it never really ends up mattering

Even without the infinite it's still 60:40 in ZSS' favour. The infinite simply pushes you over the cliff of winnability.

 

[CRASHiC]

^And this guy is a f*cking troll^

Its the truth. Once she hits Ganon, she can then time out the entire match, and hitting Ganon safely and retreating isn't that hard to do thanks to back air and her great aerial maneuverability. Link is a bit harder, but doable. Yet, she doesn't need to camp out link because of how easy it is for her to get a very early gimp.

 

[Chuee]

I have lots of experience against Lucas...enough to say that he's really a horrible character. His options in close ranged are minimal because his grab (Ike can punish it with fsmash ON REACTION) is just unusable. His approaches are all easy to beat with pivot grabs or better aerials (most characters have them) and his KO moves are not only highly punishable but also have significant start-up lag...enough to react accordingly. Being unable to deal decent damage due to lack of safeness, being unable to kill due to bad KO moves, getting ***** in close range due to lack of a decent grab, being easily outcamped due to a laggy, mediocre projectile and being a victim to grab release shenanigans = low E-Tier.

This is wrong in sooo many ways. Hes good at close range. He has a 2 frame jab and a 6 or 7 frame ftilt that has decent range. Lucas' approaches aren't bad at all. All 3 of his approaches autocancel and his air speed is pretty good. His KO moves are not highly punishable. They have some start up lag but he has a Dair --> dtilt lock that has speed. He can easily deal damage. His dair deals 20% and combos into jab/dtilt/utilt/dtilt. Having a bad grab doesn't get you ***** at close range. His projectile doesn't suck. It is unpunishable if you space it right.

 

[Maniclysane]

\@ Maniclysane: Thanks for spending the whole time trying to make me feel like I know nothing about this game that I love, and also for attempting to demean what would have otherwise been an interesting and informative debate...

I say all of that to say this... Jiggz sux

would have otherwise been an interesting and informative debate...

I say all of that to say this... Jiggz sux

You tell me we could of had an informative debate if I didn't resort to insults, then you say jiggz sux right afterwards.

Theres a reason I'm telling you that you know nothing about jigglypuff, and most likely, nothing about this game either.

 

[Justblaze647]

By your logic, he's quoting an opinion, which is allowed.

c wat i did thar?

Oh I get it! taste of my own medicine, right?

Ha ha ha..... ha ha...... ha................

heh.

Its the truth. Once she hits Ganon, she can then time out the entire match,

Yeah. Stalling out the entire match is not illegal in a tournament setting.

No one is saying that Jigglypuff is good. She's definitely in the bottom 5. But saying that she's the worst in the game is downright absurd.

Really? You say she's a bad character, I say she's the worst. Characters in the bottom 5 aren't subject to change their positions because of what? You sound like one of those people who believed Falcon was the worst until SBR told you to think something differently. Why don't you form your own opinion about something, and stop letting other people dictate what you should believe.

 

[Nefarious B]

who are robs 2 hard counters?

mk and who? zss?

nobody does the infinite on us so it never really ends up mattering

soft counter is ddd i guess? i buy that

mk and ddd are robs 2 most annoying matchups imo...i mean if a ROB just picks up Falco he automatically beats ddd and zss and then has a pretty good matchup against MK to go with it...

Heh no one uses the infinite because they don't even feel the need to learn it because we beat ROB pretty easily without it. Also, when we're talking matchups, an infinite does matter, even if no one bothers to use it. It's not even very situational either, it begins by landing dsmash at any percent, a move that has pretty much the same range as your ftilt on the ground.

I was actually talking about GaW, i thought that was 40-60 bordering 35-65 for ROB, but maybe that's changed? I didn't even realize DDD was that bad, although annoying I can def. see.

And bringing up CPing to avoid your bad matchups kind of supports my point lol

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You sound like one of those people who believed Falcon was the worst until SBR told you to think something differently. Why don't you form your own opinion about something, and stop letting other people dictate what you should believe.

And you sound like one of those people who think Jigglypuff is the worst. Oh. Wait. You do think she's the worst.

 

[Justblaze647]

You tell me we could of had an informative debate if I didn't resort to insults, then you say jiggz sux right afterwards.

Theres a reason I'm telling you that you know nothing about jigglypuff, and most likely, nothing about this game either.

I said jiggz sux b/c thats what I believe... that jiggz sux.

I'll tell you what buddy: When the day comes that you personally bring jigglypuff to new and unseen heights of respect and reverence in the smash community, I will conceed and admit that I know nothing about this game.

Your move.

Edit:

And you sound like one of those people who think Jigglypuff is the worst. Oh. Wait. You do think she's the worst.

You sound like one of those people who is quick to jump into a conversation that you're not a part of... Oh wait, that comment WAS NOT directed towards you

 

[BOB SAGET!]

It is possible for a human to crew up even if its very unlikely its still possible. Being taken to account or not if the ice climbers are sperated they're screwed. Isnt that scary too. I think they should be like 6th in the tier list but top 4 is a little too much in my opinion.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I said jiggz sux b/c thats what I believe... that jiggz sux.

I'll tell you what buddy: When the day comes that you personally bring jigglypuff to new and unseen heights of respect and reverence in the smash community, I will conceed and admit that I know nothing about this game.

Your move.

There's one problem with that. No one here ever said that she doesn't "suck".

 

[stingers]

i agree zss beats rob without the infinite but its not a hard counter. I'd say its equal to GaW actually which is really close, i'd say like 45/55 (aka barely beats), its not much to worry about...

ftilt outranges dsmash btw, but in that matchup ROB should be camping the whole time anyway because zss wrecks us inside Side B range basically, if ROB approaches it should be with a gyro because its the only safe option against Ms. 1 frame jab and really fast aerials

i consider the fact that a Falco/ROB team has only MK to worry about (and the Falco/MK matchup isn't even bad, its arguably in Falcos favor IF the MK doesn't camp, but thats all you'll see at top level play >.<) important enough to mention because it's so deadly...

 

[CRASHiC]

Yeah. Stalling out the entire match is not illegal in a tournament setting.

Its not stalling.
Stalling is making it to where a match can not continue. at all, such as jumping above every charecter's range with Jigglypuff and using rising pound to make her self stay up there. That is stalling, since the opponent has 0 chance of ever hitting you.
Camping is playing defensively, and punishing their mistakes.
She can also gimp all of low tier mind you, very, very easily. Except Yoshi, who imo shouldn't be that low.
As for the 'unseen heights' there is a European Jiggs who has done that. I wish I remember there tag or their combo video.

 

[Maniclysane]

I said jiggz sux b/c thats what I believe... that jiggz sux.

I'll tell you what buddy: When the day comes that you personally bring jigglypuff to new and unseen heights of respect and reverence in the smash community, I will conceed and admit that I know nothing about this game.

Your move.

You don't have to bring a single character to unseen heights to prove that said character isn't the worst. I'm not trying to prove that she's good either. I'm trying to tell you that she's not the worst character in the game.

 

[Kewkky]

... And all of you guys suddenly find yourselves baited by an unwanted trolling attempt.

Let the guy say whatever he wants, it's not like he's magically making Jiggs a worse character in all of our Wii's because of how he feels a character is like. I, personally, feel that Kirby should be somewhere above ROB and below S tier... Does that mean you guys are wrong? No, it just means I feel different on the matter than you guys.


... Plus, it's clear he's never done anything concerning a great Jiggs mainer (fight one, or be one).

 

[Justblaze647]

... Plus, it's clear he's never done anything concerning a great Jiggs mainer (fight one, or be one).

Name one "great" Jiggz mainer, and then name one notable accomplishment, such as a touney victory, by said individual.

 

[stingers]

i think vanz has won a tournament before...@.@

 

[Kewkky]

Name one "great" Jiggz mainer, and then name one notable accomplishment, such as a touney victory, by said individual.

I'll do if you name one great Ganondorf mainer, and then name one notable accomplishment.

You can't? Well, uhh, guess Jiggs isn't the worst in the game.


Plus, accomplishments don't make a character magically better. If everyone mained C.Falcon, we'd see C.Falcon winning ALL the tourneys. Doesn't mean that he's a better character than he is now... Just play a great Jiggs mainer and you'll see.

 

[stingers]

aha...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7102192&postcount=95

not vanz...but you know

 

[Nefarious B]

i agree zss beats rob without the infinite but its not a hard counter. I'd say its equal to GaW actually which is really close, i'd say like 45/55 (aka barely beats), its not much to worry about...

I disagree, and just so you know where I'm coming from I used to main ROB before maining ZSS so I do know a fair bit about each character.

ZSS has one of the best uairs in the game, as well as her Up b which lead into rediculous juggle traps and set up for kills, especially on characters who cant fast fall well enough or don't have good enough aerial speed to avoid it. ROB fits that classification pretty well.

Side b and nB give her the ability to space in the zone just outside of ftilt range but close enough to make ROB's ending and startup lag on his projectiles punishable.

She has a frame 1 jab that ROB, unlike most characters, does not powershield. This makes it easily abusable and can be used in conjunction with DAs for easy grounded combos.

Her side b can outrange ROB's fair, which makes it very difficult for ROB to recover with Up b since he can't airdodge out of it.

She can do SH double bair to zone against taller characters like ROB, which has comparable (I'm not sure it could be slightly longer) range to marth's fair, as well as good poking and killing ability.

She should be killing ROB much earlier than he can kill her.

Not to mention, her speed in general allows her to hinder his camp game much in the same way Fox and MK can.

And then there's the general fact that ROB is very susceptible to combos and ZSS is one of the best (if not -the- best) comboers in this game.

And lastly, the infinite that starts from a move with huge range, at any percent. I agree that this shouldn't be relied on, but the mere fact that it is there should put enough pressure on the ROB to severely hinder his game. In a matchup discussion we have to assume that the ZSS player will be able to preform the infinite if he lands the dsmash, in which case I would say taking one or two stocks in a set is not all that unrealistic.

All in all this matchup reminds me of ZSS's matchup against falco, but in reverse for ROB. ZS has the tools to beat ROB at every range (except long range obviously, where she can quickly close the gab and easily evade the projectiles), and for that reason, I'd say atleast 60-40, maybe 65-35 for her before the infinite. The infinite is actually a very small part of the reason she beats him IMO, her character is just really well suited to handle what ROB does.

i consider the fact that a Falco/ROB team has only MK to worry about (and the Falco/MK matchup isn't even bad, its arguably in Falcos favor IF the MK doesn't camp, but thats all you'll see at top level play >.<) important enough to mention because it's so deadly...

I agree that this works really well when we're talking about a real life situation, but a tier list discussion focuses on one character at a time so it really has no place in this thread. When discussing ROB we have to take into account the fact that he has several difficult matchups that will have an effect on his placement.

 

[uhmuzing]

Is Link really worse than Ganondorf?.........

 

[Kewkky]

Is Link really worse than Ganondorf?.........

No, he is not. Link is better, so don't you worry about that.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Really? You say she's a bad character, I say she's the worst. Characters in the bottom 5 aren't subject to change their positions because of what? You sound like one of those people who believed Falcon was the worst until SBR told you to think something differently. Why don't you form your own opinion about something, and stop letting other people dictate what you should believe.

For your information, I've always believed that Falcon is 2nd worst, and that Ganondorf is worst. I do form my own opinions on things; they just don't happen to agree with your opinions.

There is absolutely no way in my mind that Jigglypuff is worse than Ganondorf.

 

[Justblaze647]

Well, I disagree. It's as simple as that.

 

[Kewkky]

Touché, Ray Kalm.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Well, I disagree. It's as simple as that.

Kewkky, just do what you told us to do. Ignore this troll.

 

[stingers]

ZSS's uair has such bad horizontal range she actually doesn't juggle ROB in particular that well since ROB can just bair away. against like DK or wolf who dont have great options in that scenario uair works better but against ROB it leads to zss either going for a juggle or trying to punish the landing...so its a guessing game.

rob only gets juggled hard (but its really bad ) by people like MK and marth who have uairs with good horizontal range as well that can cover a bair

everything else you said is just plain wrong though...

Side b and nB give her the ability to space in the zone just outside of ftilt range but close enough to make ROB's ending and startup lag on his projectiles punishable

She has a frame 1 jab that ROB, unlike most characters, does not powershield. This makes it easily abusable and can be used in conjunction with DAs for easy grounded combos.

rob only camps grounded from long range, if its mid range camping a good rob will either jump back or stay grounded and not do anything, waiting for you...ZSS only ***** rob bad at close range, keeping us at mid range means neither of us are getting anything. you can try to push us back, but going offstage as zss (against ROB anyway) is a bad idea...

not sure what you meant by "Unlike most characters, ROB doesn't powershield". I think you mixed up your words there or something, ROB can powershield a ZSS jab the same as any other character >.>

Her side b can outrange ROB's fair, which makes it very difficult for ROB to recover with Up b since he can't airdodge out of it.

ROB recovers from below against ZSS...lol...how are you gonna hit us out of up b with a side b? failllll

She can do SH double bair to zone against taller characters like ROB, which has comparable (I'm not sure it could be slightly longer) range to marth's fair, as well as good poking and killing ability.

why would sh double bair help...rob shouldn't be approaching in this matchup...ever...just run run run all day long...creating a wall of bairs wouldn't do anything against a laser or gyro lol

She should be killing ROB much earlier than he can kill her.

really? loooool...should be around the same %, not sure why you think zss will be killing "much earlier"...

Not to mention, her speed in general allows her to hinder his camp game much in the same way Fox and MK can.

zss weaves in and out of lasers and gyros, which is what mk does too yeah, but fox just reflects **** and laser camps >.> i lost to a fox last weekend and thats what he did, its a very different approach then zss takes >.>

And then there's the general fact that ROB is very susceptible to combos and ZSS is one of the best (if not -the- best) comboers in this game.

uhhhhhh...no comment lol, i hope nobody reading this sees the game this way

 

[Justblaze647]

Ok. I guess it would be much better to just conform to everyone elses ideals.

But since I'm not going to do that, I will leave.

Edit: Troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll. Is that the name you brand people who have a different view on a given situation than yourselves? What a heart-warming and welcoming community.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Edit: Troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll. Is that the name you brand people who have a different view on a given situation than yourselves?

Yep. If it ain't in the normal range a person would place a character, and is without a good page long explanation, you are obviously trolling. And I'm only being partly sarcastic here.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lol, Sonic can't kill is so 2008...

So true.
Sonic can't kill til 2008%.

 

[Alphicans]

Well, I disagree. It's as simple as that.

I disagree that your name is Justblaze647. IMO it's Justblaze674.

 

[Nefarious B]

ZSS's uair has such bad horizontal range she actually doesn't juggle ROB in particular that well since ROB can just bair away. against like DK or wolf who dont have great options in that scenario uair works better but against ROB it leads to zss either going for a juggle or trying to punish the landing...so its a guessing game.

rob only gets juggled hard (but its really bad ) by people like MK and marth who have uairs with good horizontal range as well that can cover a bair

Her uair has excellent horizontal range. Don't really know how you could even get that impression, I'm 90% sure it outranges MK's uair in that respect. She also has better horizontal movement to follow you if you try to get away with bair. Her uair beats some fairs in horizontal range. The fact that this was your first point really makes me lol

rob only camps grounded from long range, if its mid range camping a good rob will either jump back or stay grounded and not do anything, waiting for you...

I hope more ROB's play like this, if you jump back it's an easy dash into the blind zone of his laser and uair or DA the landing.

ZSS only ***** rob bad at close range, keeping us at mid range means neither of us are getting anything. you can try to push us back, but going offstage as zss (against ROB anyway) is a bad idea...

It's really not at all, she has the tools to outspace and out speed him. If the player misspaces and gets gimped that means he messed up.

not sure what you meant by "Unlike most characters, ROB doesn't powershield". I think you mixed up your words there or something, ROB can powershield a ZSS jab the same as any other character >.>

wrong

ROB recovers from below against ZSS...lol...how are you gonna hit us out of up b with a side b? failllll

So you're taking the risk of getting hit by a dsmash, which leads into either a down b spike or a stage spike. Not to mention, even if you get to the edge, ROB has terrible options against ZSS for getting back onto the stage.

why would sh double bair help...rob shouldn't be approaching in this matchup...ever...just run run run all day long...creating a wall of bairs wouldn't do anything against a laser or gyro lol

This is just another tool for mid to close range zoning, and something that ROB can't really do anything about. I understand that you think you can just avoid that range all day, but you're wrong. She is one of the best characters for closing that gap, and staying there once she gets in.

really? loooool...should be around the same %, not sure why you think zss will be killing "much earlier"...

Bair and side b kill extremely easily against an offstage opponent, which is where ROB will end up if he continually runs like you're suggesting he should. Both those moves also outrange your fair, which is your safest move out of up b.

Her kills moves are stronger in general (excluding lol usmash), faster, and have better range.

zss weaves in and out of lasers and gyros, which is what mk does too yeah, but fox just reflects **** and laser camps >.> i lost to a fox last weekend and thats what he did, its a very different approach then zss takes >.>

That's just another approach fox can take, but he can also use his speed to get inside your camp game, dair utilt and jab combo you where you can do much.

And how can you say that ROB doesn't get comboed worse than other characters? He's a big, slow moving target with no invincibility or "combo breaker" style moves. He's floaty which helps him in some cases but against ZSS just means juggle meat.

 

[Kewkky]

And how can you say that ROB doesn't get comboed worse than other characters? He's a big, slow moving target with no invincibility or "combo breaker" style moves. He's floaty which helps him in some cases but against ZSS just means juggle meat.

Oh dear Lord, yes. If you're at the right height and the right %, you're going to eat AT LEAST 5 straight uairs before you have enough time to airdodge... Her fastfalling and fast jumping traits makes this possible.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'll do if you name one great Ganondorf mainer, and then name one notable accomplishment.

You can't? Well, uhh, guess Jiggs isn't the worst in the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylX5FvOyVQo&translated=1

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Her uair has excellent horizontal range. Don't really know how you could even get that impression, I'm 90% sure it outranges MK's uair in that respect. She also has better horizontal movement to follow you if you try to get away with bair. Her uair beats some fairs in horizontal range. The fact that this was your first point really makes me lol
It outranges mks uair, also beats dair if you use it.


I hope more ROB's play like this, if you jump back it's an easy dash into the blind zone of his laser and uair or DA the landing.
True



So you're taking the risk of getting hit by a dsmash, which leads into either a down b spike or a stage spike. Not to mention, even if you get to the edge, ROB has terrible options against ZSS for getting back onto the stage.
This I'm not sure off, rob has some nice ledge camping options, however they're not endless as he needs to recharge his upb at some point in time.


Bair and side b kill extremely easily against an offstage opponent, which is where ROB will end up if he continually runs like you're suggesting he should. Both those moves also outrange your fair, which is your safest move out of up b.
ROB should be recovering below, like any chara against zero

Her kills moves are stronger in general (excluding lol usmash), faster, and have better range.
Nair is nair. ROBs nair is legit in this matchup



And how can you say that ROB doesn't get comboed worse than other characters? He's a big, slow moving target with no invincibility or "combo breaker" style moves. He's floaty which helps him in some cases but against ZSS just means juggle meat.
SO TRUE

Oh dear Lord, yes. If you're at the right height and the right %, you're going to eat AT LEAST 5 straight uairs before you have enough time to airdodge... Her fastfalling and fast jumping traits makes this possible.

And don't forget upB.


I somehow still have trouble with ROB though, but that's just my lack of zss experience. Last games I played against a ROB were alot better though, and definitely in my advantage. Just gotta hate those tilts, especially ftilt.

 

[Kewkky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylX5FvOyVQo&translated=1

Friendlies, huh.

Nice accomplishment.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lol, look at me, I'm elitist, friendlies mean nothing because they aren't a tournament match. I believe AZ sandbagged just to make a Ganon look good.

 

[Kewkky]

Lol, look at me, I'm elitist, friendlies mean nothing because they aren't a tournament match. I believe AZ sandbagged just to make a Ganon look good.

Ok, so you lost me here. I dunno if it's sarcasm, or what you're exactly trying to say...

The point is, people play different in friendlies because there's nothing on the line... Plus it's one opponent in a couple of friendlies, versus the Jigglypuff tourney of 47 entrants.

 

[SuSa]

You tend to take larger risks in friendlies because nothing is on the line.

Just say'n

Because if friendlies mean anything, I took a set off Haze. Could I do that in a MM or Tourney match? I doubt it.