Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[BOB SAGET!]

I believe olimar should be above pikachu in the next tier list. olimar has better matchups and better tourney results by a bit. He has great grab range and nice followup combos and a very decent projectile.

 

[zeldspazz]

When you put Zelda/Sheik together, you're explaination it seems to me is saying that Zelda is actually holding that character back from being higher than C. Is that correct? If that is the case, then I dont really agree. Zelda has some matchups among the high/top tiers that are better than Sheik's, so how does this hold them back rather than bring them up a place or 2? And even when it's a Zelda disadvantage, Zelda is really really reliable at killing the opponent when they are entering the 100s and all of her kill moves are fresh. It just takes 1 connection to make them fly. You can transform by being hit offstage and transforming, or hit the opponent with a dsmash/fsmash and transform as they recover. IMO, this is a better option than going for the gimp as Sheik, especially if you are comfortable with Zelda. Obviously Im not saying Zelda is good, Zelda is utter trash, but she is good in these situations. Just my thought on the Zelda/Sheik senario, to me they are easy high B tier.

Other than that, I really commend you for taking your time and writing a well organized thread thats open for some friendly discussion The list looks good and well thought out.


Edit: Whoa whoa, I just read what you wrote above the F tier. Zelda is not and will never be in the same fail league as those guys. I would really like to know your reasoning behind this, she's trash, but shes not that trash.

 

[LoganW]

Also, no, there was no video at that tournament :/ which is mad gay, cause it had Mew2King, ADHD, and Atomsk for top 3.

I think i'm talking about a really thing from like march or something. There were videos I know cause I watched them

Yeah, I saw the video, combos don't really do much for me, though Melee combos are far more entertaining and more unpredictable than Street Fighter and King of fighter combos

YESSSSS
If it isn't the combos then what "does it for you" in smash

 

[Llumys]

I lol'd @ Mario>Luigi.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

They aren't ordered within tiers.

 

[LoganW]

I lol'd at people saying brawl>melee especially that guy who got stomped in the thread i the melee forums about an end to the discussion of melee vs. brawl his name was neo exodeth and he didn't know what pound 4 was

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Zelda beats ICs due to Nair in large part IIRC, as well as other multi-hitting moves that easily separate them/shield poke.

The landing lag example isn't really that flawed. A bit exaggerated, but fully possible in some cases, like with Ike's Hyphen Usmash due to how long the frames last. Heck, we talked about it on the Ike boards briefly. It was to prove a point mainly about how you can't use things that haven't been proven in tournament yet.

MK's dsmash is broken when looking at the disjointedness, speed, shield poking, and power as a full package. Diddy's banana's aren't broken. Anything that can be used against that very character is no longer broken. They are great, no questioning that, but not broken.

EDIT:

I lol'd at people saying brawl>melee especially that guy who got stomped in the thread i the melee forums about an end to the discussion of melee vs. brawl his name was neo exodeth and he didn't know what pound 4 was

Then why are you even freaking here? I mean, it's clear by your location you don't like Brawl. If you don't like the game, don't post in topics about the said game. Common sense really.

 

[SuSa]

After seeing Ally at Active, he does have things he can work on.

He has no banana game, and thinks that throwing away Diddy's bananas is pretty much always the best option. He doesn't know the proper spacing at which to throw them (he almost ALWAYS threw them OVER the Diddy, completely missing) he doesn't use the minor glide toss Snake does have to get in free dthrows/ftilts if you and the Diddy happen to be close when you have a banana. And sometimes you HAVE to be a bit "flashy" with bananas. And yes, throwing them off to make the Diddy down-B so you can punish it does work, but you can't ALWAYS punish the Diddy for down-B. So he's right, but he's wrong as well... if that makes sense...

He didn't seem to know how to use grenades to limit Falco's options in the match against Larry/DEHF. You NEED to place your grenades to limit his options if you want any form of advantage in the matchup. Larry kept getting away with phantasm because Ally wasn't covering it (yes, a lot of times the grenade won't blow up the Falco from his side-B. But more often then not, if you space it properly, it does)

He needs to learn which 11 characters can be followed up to a regrab soley based on reaction. He seems to base most of his followups based on opponent habits, or go for the ftilt. Which is good, but it can be better. If you can potentially 0-death Falco using a grab release chaingrab and dthrow. Would you?

That said, he's an amazing player who also knows quite a lot of small details that can literally make or break a match. He taught me two things vs MK, one how to avoid a gimp if ground broken at the edge of the stage (jump+airdodge, nothing else. But it's hard to buffer...), always DI away from MK if he dthrows, otherwise you set yourself up for a gimp (this seemed to help a ton vs Tyrant...), if MK rolls to the edge of the stage, don't ftilt him. The 2nd hit misses. (I've noticed this, never understood why... I dtilt now)

He taught me a smarter way of using grenades vs MK if he tries to plank with dair (which also helped vs Tyrant. And if I wasn't messing up, it would have helped more vs M2K... I caught onto how to do it properly a little to slowly...)

I really do think if Ally learned a bit of the "flashy stuff" (which he avoids, because MOST OF THE TIME Flashy = Bad.... but he seems to treat it as "flashy is always bad") he could improve himself so much more then his current level.

 

[CRASHiC]

If it isn't the combos then what "does it for you" in smash

Mindgames.

I lol'd at people saying brawl>melee especially that guy who got stomped in the thread i the melee forums about an end to the discussion of melee vs. brawl his name was neo exodeth and he didn't know what pound 4 was

What about the end when you claimed that Brawl was fadding and I showed numbers that showed otherwise.

As for Pound 4, I think he's going to end up in a lot of debt for that tournament. Its the end of September and he has, what? 50 people signed up? He has 3 months to get a couple hundred people, which he won't do unless he drops that awful venue fee.

I really do think if Ally learned a bit of the "flashy stuff" (which he avoids, because MOST OF THE TIME Flashy = Bad.... but he seems to treat it as "flashy is always bad") he could improve himself so much more then his current level.

Lol. . The Mango of Brawl is the opposite of Mango in everyway it seems.

 

[LoganW]

just posting around. I have said nothing bad yet and probably will not either
so this at active gamer thing I read that m2k quit melee for brawl, is this true?

 

[PhantomX]

Hylian claims his new dysynch gives them a setup into grab, but I've yet to see it do so.

He landed this on me once in tournament this weekend to clinch a round (the video will go up eventually).

You're pretty outdated on Wario though. He's **** near impossible to gimp if the Wario knows what he's doing (even by the likes of MK), and he's 60:40 vs Luigi and almost even against Marth... his only bad matchup is mk at a 40:60.

 

[SuSa]

He can't play Brawl+Melee in the same day, it ****s him up. Melee had no sponsorship, Brawl did. He wanted the sponsorship. (This is from what I've heard from a lot of the people. But I could be wrong)

I'm certain if Melee had the sponsorship, he'd probably had attempted both or chose Melee. But I don't know him THAT well, so who knows... he may have even done Brawl then as well...

@CRAHic
... Ally is the Mango of Brawl? Now I'm confused. :/

/never followed Melee as closely as Brawl

 

[LoganW]

Mindgames.

cool. But does d3 have those?

What about the end when you claimed that Brawl was fadding and I showed numbers that showed otherwise.

As for Pound 4, I think he's going to end up in a lot of debt for that tournament. Its the end of September and he has, what? 50 people signed up? He has 3 months to get a couple hundred people, which he won't do unless he drops that awful venue fee.

I think he has more and it will definitely work out. I never claimed that brawl was fading I said that I didn't think t would last as long as melee. I was responding to the guy who said brawl was fading out melee and then got destroyed in that thread

 

[phi1ny3]

I dunno, Taj wrecking people with M2 or NEO with Roy makes my day for Melee. :D

 

[Kinzer]

I lol'd @ Mario>Luigi.

This, but in an attempt to put it in a less offensive manner that anybody except the Taylor Swift fans can easily accept:

Yo Pierce, I'm really happy for you, and you seem like a busy guy, doing Ike & Bowser and quoting & replying to everybody who is posting, so I'mma ley c'you finish, but having Mario that high up is one of the greatest upsets of all time.

...OF ALL TIME!

I'd explain it, but I feel that my opinion on not only Mario, but a lot of other characters and the game as a whole are a bit extreme and outlandish.

 

[LoganW]

I dunno, Taj wrecking people with M2 or NEO with Roy makes my day for Melee. :D

Phil nye your too good. Now we got dj/wk for bowser, axe for pika,etc. It's still great.

 

[CRASHiC]

@CRAHic
... Ally is the Mango of Brawl? Now I'm confused. :/

Player who came in and shook up the scene.

Pre-mango everyone pretty much knew who was going to be in the top, and no one guess a jiggs would be there.
Post-Mango everyone expects Mango win.

I remember how much of a stir Ally created, and it reminded me of all the 07 and 08 hype for Mango. Ally isn't as great respectably as Mango though, who is leaps and bounds above everyone else who plays Melee currently.

cool. But does d3 have those?

Yeah, we have quite a few actually. If we win a mindgame, we punish huge. Its what we do. Its also why I play A.B.A. in Guilty Gear.

 

[SuSa]

Just realized something.

@person who said Falco = Btier
High A tier, Mid A Tier at worst. I just don't feel him in S tier. <_<

 

[Pierce7d]

Of course it is...

Spoiler

When they're trying to challenge it instead of just landing -> punish

This

The biggest reason I don't believe IC belong in the top tier is look what happened in Melee. Yes, I realize melee is a different game. But in it, ICs had an infinite (wobbling) that wasn't too hard to learn, worked on every character in the game, and usually wasn't banned. Yet very few people switched to ICs, and they stayed in a respectable position within the tier list, but never quite got in the top five spots. I believe the same thing will happen in Brawl.

This is fair, and we're seeing this strategy develop more. However, IC have extremely good walls in this game as well. They can combat most of the cast, and we have to wait and see.

IC's fell behind the metagame in melee. Don't bring it up in here

No, it's fair to bring it up here, because it's a similar situation, used in a respectable example.

Banana? Tripping us, IN THE AIR?!?!?! MAGIC!
We start our downair camping by picking up the banana with Downair, When then throw it up (as to not give it back to Diddy) and start downair camping, picking up the naner as we go.
We see you shoot a peanut, we back air. We see you throw a banana, we catch. We see you forward air, we bair (yes its disjointed before you ask). We see you side b, we forward air.
As for our landing options, auto cancel leads perfectly into uptilt, downsmash, downtilt, grab, inhale, another downair, bair, or forward tilt.

I think you have a very limited idea of DDDs moveset, based completly off the standard way of playing him. Are you aware we have a guaranteed dash attack on you guys and a guaranteed forward smash on Snake?



no, it works. People learned how to fight ICs in melee, and it had nothing to do with things that are in Melee and not in Brawl. In fact, ICs are better in Melee. They have combos into grab, as well as leads into kill moves. They have neither of thsoe here. Even more, there duo status gave them the ability to mess up your combos pretty heavily. ICs fell behind because people learned how to fight them by seperation and camping. The same tactic is still being applied and experimented with in Brawl.

I recently picked up D3 and realized that his moveset is pretty dynamic. However, what do you do if Diddy does nothing, sits with one banana in front, holds one, and fires peanuts?

i think diddy wins

You don't play Brawl.

Every character was better in melee

you dont play melee

Logan, if you're going to post here, at least post reasonably. These one line responses are off-topic and irrelevant to discussion. Please elaborate on why you think Diddy wins.

I agree quite a bit with this actually, and it's the reason why I don't see ICs too much as rising in the top 3. I can see them maybe as like 5th best, but they have some serious consequences in this game if the character is able to play crazy safe, plus it's not like they are invincible themselves, although they have some pretty nasty tools in their stubby hands.

I see far too many matches go by where the ICs player gets three grabs and simply muddle up the CG. When ICs players get their game tight, I'd be afraid.

Yes I do. I've played with Rockcrock, Phanna, and an ICs who I don't remember his tag. I used Jiggly and got my *** kicked. Now I know my charecter is DK, and thus, don't go to tourneys for it.



Hylian claims his new dysynch gives them a setup into grab, but I've yet to see it do so. The future is uncertain for ICs imo. I'm interested in seing where they go. I do believe that ICs, Diddy, and Snake can all go against MKs favor someday, but that is yet to be seen.

I've seen Lain use it once at SNES.

i mean that every charcter is more entertaining and can do much cooler things in melee i dont care about brawl

i used to play brawl. I mained ddd I watched videos constantly, I still have an understanding of the metagame. Has a top d3 beaten a top diddy? Idk, just wandering. Oh, i post around here sometimes because people respond so fast here

If you don't play Brawl, you aren't forced to respond here. If you have something positive to contribute, I'm interested in your contribution. Atomsk has beaten ADHD in tourney, but the last time they fought, ADHD destroyed him. In New Jersey, ADHD is ranked one, Atomsk is ranked two.

His stupid camping game, is in fact, not that stupid to breach. Sure he can rack some % fast, but he cant really keep you off unless he has some purples, and considering he dies easily, its cost effective to take some % to pikmin but to throw that ******* off stage.

So, really, the camping even tho racks %, can only keep you off based on purple count, so as you said, purple = olimar game. That said, his game pretty much relies on purples all together, and other thant that(you need luck) his other flaws are blatantly obvious are bad(bad getup = lots of ukemi, very gimpable).

But i think you still say some truth with his position, oli is in fact having a bad meta-game advancement, a slow one, so he cant really shine. But as soon as he gets a improvement i'd say he can be where he is(or even higher).

But going from today's metagame, he just dosent really deserver that spot yet. YET.

@Craschic: Show the donkey monkey some love, i go to melee tourneys with DK, its fun =p. But then, i main DK + M2, so im used to getting my *** kicked. But then², Bum + Taj = my heroes.

I have extensive experience in the Olimar MU, as I used to train with Blackwaltz before he moved. Olimar also has a solid offensive game, and Usmash makes his defense extremely good. He has kill throws, and grabs reliably, so stale moves aren't an issue. He also has kill set-ups. Olimar gets BETTER with Purples, but he's good without.

Yeah, Kirby's got some crazy sick kill moves and GnW has the best shield ever in Melee. Yep. What does entertainment have to do with a tier list? And why are you always in Brawl threads

This. But please don't feed the troll.

I dunno, I didn't like the fact that my Melee main in nearly every viable MU discussion was considered dangerous for only Wavedashed dtilt, although he was pretty awesome. X3

This is off topic.

I mostly agree, but this is a Brawl discussion thread after all.

This.

i know, you brought up melee. I just like how everyones got crazy **** they can pull off in melee tho. Crashic I post in brawl cause it moves fast and i'm really bored right now.
watch this **** cause this is what I mean:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9bD8NCEGRw

This is way off-topic.

Atomsk beat ADHD in tournament not to long ago. The matchup is regarded 45-55 in Diddy's slight favor, though once Seibrik gets more experiance with that matchup, I'd be very interested in seeing how that goes. Seibrik can overcome any of our matchups, seriously.

The last time Atomsk fought ADHD, ADHD destroyed him. I believe that in this isolated part of advanced Diddy metagame, D3 is no longer an issue.

cool. I think i saw that and adhd won the set iirc?
did you see my video?
oh, I thought some guy name co something was best d3. I saw his combo vid like a year and a half ago he uses the purple robe

Co18 is the best D3 right now, IMO. This is still offtopic.

Co18 and Seibrik are both the top D3s. You really can't put one over the other. They both play different, and are of equal skill.
The difference between the too right now, Co18 doesn't come on the forums, Seibrik is doing all he can to help us out.

Also, no, there was no video at that tournament :/ which is mad gay, cause it had Mew2King, ADHD, and Atomsk for top 3.
Yeah, I saw the video, combos don't really do much for me, though Melee combos are far more entertaining and more unpredictable than Street Fighter and King of fighter combos, which are much more set in stone.
It also shows that Rachel is better against the cast than Nu is, if you'd read the chart I posted.


Nu is number 2 xD Rachel is number 1.
Rachel has proven a better charecter, and thus moved up from 2 to 1 to surpass Nu, despite having a bad matchup against Nu.

Interesting, I main Rachel, but I play casually, and don't own the game. Good to know. Also, I was there. ADHD did extremely well. He's a bit above the other Diddy players atm IMO.

I believe olimar should be above pikachu in the next tier list. olimar has better matchups and better tourney results by a bit. He has great grab range and nice followup combos and a very decent projectile.

This is pretty solid, but why do you think only better than Pikachu? How do Olimar's advantages make him surpass Pikachu on the tier list?

 

[CRASHiC]

I think both DDD and Falco should drop down to A tier, but maybe that would outbalance A tier, since DDD and Falco seem to do better than the characters currently in that tier.

 

[nightmar3]

pit should acually go up and link to at least d snake should b a teir and ice climberz GOD

 

[Nidtendofreak]

pit should acually go up and link to at least d snake should b a teir and ice climberz GOD

Er....

You might want to read up on all of those characters. A lot.

 

[Popcornio]

Even though I realize you didn't put the characters in any order based on the tier you predict they would be in, I would think it would be a good idea because there is a lot of discussion on the order of the characters within the tier groups. There are a lot of instances where you point that out, but because there isn't a bases on how we should arrange the characters (or even have your opinion how the order of them), the discussion isn't going to far because for the most part, people do agree on the grouping of the characters but not on the particular "order" you have them in at this time.

Until I see what order you think they should be in, I will then weigh my opinion on that.

just posting around. I have said nothing bad yet and probably will not either
so this at active gamer thing I read that m2k quit melee for brawl, is this true?

Nice contribution towards the topic.

 

[Palpi]

I think both DDD and Falco should drop down to A tier, but maybe that would outbalance A tier, since DDD and Falco seem to do better than the characters currently in that tier.

Then they shouldn't go down to A tier.

 

[Pierce7d]

When you put Zelda/Sheik together, you're explaination it seems to me is saying that Zelda is actually holding that character back from being higher than C. Is that correct? If that is the case, then I dont really agree. Zelda has some matchups among the high/top tiers that are better than Sheik's, so how does this hold them back rather than bring them up a place or 2? And even when it's a Zelda disadvantage, Zelda is really really reliable at killing the opponent when they are entering the 100s and all of her kill moves are fresh. It just takes 1 connection to make them fly. You can transform by being hit offstage and transforming, or hit the opponent with a dsmash/fsmash and transform as they recover. IMO, this is a better option than going for the gimp as Sheik, especially if you are comfortable with Zelda. Obviously Im not saying Zelda is good, Zelda is utter trash, but she is good in these situations. Just my thought on the Zelda/Sheik senario, to me they are easy high B tier.

Other than that, I really commend you for taking your time and writing a well organized thread thats open for some friendly discussion The list looks good and well thought out.


Edit: Whoa whoa, I just read what you wrote above the F tier. Zelda is not and will never be in the same fail league as those guys. I would really like to know your reasoning behind this, she's trash, but shes not that trash.

No, the Zelda/Sheik placing is based mainly with a mindset of a Sheik player, using Zelda to his advantage, as Zelda is so much trash it's pretty much always better to play Sheik. How do you land the connection with Zelda against the high tier characters? How does Zelda approach? How does Zelda deal with her opponent's shield?

I think i'm talking about a really thing from like march or something. There were videos I know cause I watched them

YESSSSS
If it isn't the combos then what "does it for you" in smash

This is off-topic still. Mindgames, and proper reading to answer your question.

I lol'd @ Mario>Luigi.

Mario and Luigi are in the same tier. And what the quote right below this says.

They aren't ordered within tiers.

EXACTLY!

I lol'd at people saying brawl>melee especially that guy who got stomped in the thread i the melee forums about an end to the discussion of melee vs. brawl his name was neo exodeth and he didn't know what pound 4 was

It's opinion.

Zelda beats ICs due to Nair in large part IIRC, as well as other multi-hitting moves that easily separate them/shield poke.

The landing lag example isn't really that flawed. A bit exaggerated, but fully possible in some cases, like with Ike's Hyphen Usmash due to how long the frames last. Heck, we talked about it on the Ike boards briefly. It was to prove a point mainly about how you can't use things that haven't been proven in tournament yet.

MK's dsmash is broken when looking at the disjointedness, speed, shield poking, and power as a full package. Diddy's banana's aren't broken. Anything that can be used against that very character is no longer broken. They are great, no questioning that, but not broken.

MK's dsmash isn't safe on block. Banana toss is. IMO, this makes it much better, especially because it leads into much more.

You RARELY can use a top level Diddy player's bananas against him. Have you ever hit Diddy with a banana? He trips for like, NO time. Also, Diddy's catch and throw frame data is the best in the game I think. His moves are also designed to easily catch bananas.

If Ike tries to beat a landing with Usmash, you can just hit Ike. However, I understand what you're trying to say. Like I said, I'm not talking about Mario tricks, I'm talking about his standard gameplay.

After seeing Ally at Active, he does have things he can work on.

He has no banana game, and thinks that throwing away Diddy's bananas is pretty much always the best option. He doesn't know the proper spacing at which to throw them (he almost ALWAYS threw them OVER the Diddy, completely missing) he doesn't use the minor glide toss Snake does have to get in free dthrows/ftilts if you and the Diddy happen to be close when you have a banana. And sometimes you HAVE to be a bit "flashy" with bananas. And yes, throwing them off to make the Diddy down-B so you can punish it does work, but you can't ALWAYS punish the Diddy for down-B. So he's right, but he's wrong as well... if that makes sense...

He didn't seem to know how to use grenades to limit Falco's options in the match against Larry/DEHF. You NEED to place your grenades to limit his options if you want any form of advantage in the matchup. Larry kept getting away with phantasm because Ally wasn't covering it (yes, a lot of times the grenade won't blow up the Falco from his side-B. But more often then not, if you space it properly, it does)

He needs to learn which 11 characters can be followed up to a regrab soley based on reaction. He seems to base most of his followups based on opponent habits, or go for the ftilt. Which is good, but it can be better. If you can potentially 0-death Falco using a grab release chaingrab and dthrow. Would you?

That said, he's an amazing player who also knows quite a lot of small details that can literally make or break a match. He taught me two things vs MK, one how to avoid a gimp if ground broken at the edge of the stage (jump+airdodge, nothing else. But it's hard to buffer...), always DI away from MK if he dthrows, otherwise you set yourself up for a gimp (this seemed to help a ton vs Tyrant...), if MK rolls to the edge of the stage, don't ftilt him. The 2nd hit misses. (I've noticed this, never understood why... I dtilt now)

He taught me a smarter way of using grenades vs MK if he tries to plank with dair (which also helped vs Tyrant. And if I wasn't messing up, it would have helped more vs M2K... I caught onto how to do it properly a little to slowly...)

I really do think if Ally learned a bit of the "flashy stuff" (which he avoids, because MOST OF THE TIME Flashy = Bad.... but he seems to treat it as "flashy is always bad") he could improve himself so much more then his current level.

Well, I hope Elliot gets back to training then. It's upsetting how many top level players are calling the game boring, because they don't realize that they can still advance their metagames.

Mindgames.



What about the end when you claimed that Brawl was fadding and I showed numbers that showed otherwise.

As for Pound 4, I think he's going to end up in a lot of debt for that tournament. Its the end of September and he has, what? 50 people signed up? He has 3 months to get a couple hundred people, which he won't do unless he drops that awful venue fee.



Lol. . The Mango of Brawl is the opposite of Mango in everyway it seems.

I think Plank will be alright. Pound 4 people just haven't pre-registered yet because we're lazy, but it'll be hyped.

just posting around. I have said nothing bad yet and probably will not either
so this at active gamer thing I read that m2k quit melee for brawl, is this true?

m2k dropped out of Melee so he could win a sponsorship for Brawl, which he did. Monetarily, it was the smart thing to do. You haven't said many bad things, but you are horribly off the topic of this thread, and pulling other people off the topic as well.

He landed this on me once in tournament this weekend to clinch a round (the video will go up eventually).

You're pretty outdated on Wario though. He's **** near impossible to gimp if the Wario knows what he's doing (even by the likes of MK), and he's 60:40 vs Luigi and almost even against Marth... his only bad matchup is mk at a 40:60.

Please explain how Wario can recover against Marth or another Wario, or another character like D3, who is likely to try and go offstage to perform a gimp. Wario vs. Marth is also 6.4 IMO. You'll note that I still have Wario in A-Tier, and I agree that a smart Wario would not get gimped often.

He can't play Brawl+Melee in the same day, it ****s him up. Melee had no sponsorship, Brawl did. He wanted the sponsorship. (This is from what I've heard from a lot of the people. But I could be wrong)

I'm certain if Melee had the sponsorship, he'd probably had attempted both or chose Melee. But I don't know him THAT well, so who knows... he may have even done Brawl then as well...

@CRAHic
... Ally is the Mango of Brawl? Now I'm confused. :/

/never followed Melee as closely as Brawl

M2k was top in Brawl and Melee. Mango dethrowned him in Melee, and until he took the crown back recently in Brawl, Ally had dethrowned him. Ally placing 9th is just more evidence to me that Snake is overrated.

cool. But does d3 have those?




I think he has more and it will definitely work out. I never claimed that brawl was fading I said that I didn't think t would last as long as melee. I was responding to the guy who said brawl was fading out melee and then got destroyed in that thread

D3 definitely has mindgames. Also, the lifespan of Brawl is off the topic of this thread.

I dunno, Taj wrecking people with M2 or NEO with Roy makes my day for Melee. :D

Cool, but way off-topic.

This, but in an attempt to put it in a less offensive manner that anybody except the Taylor Swift fans can easily accept:

Yo Pierce, I'm really happy for you, and you seem like a busy guy, doing Ike & Bowser and quoting & replying to everybody who is posting, so I'mma ley c'you finish, but having Mario that high up is one of the greatest upsets of all time.

...OF ALL TIME!

I'd explain it, but I feel that my opinion on not only Mario, but a lot of other characters and the game as a whole are a bit extreme and outlandish.

I solidly think Mario is in C-Tier. He has good approaches, good camping, good damage racking, mid-weight, solid recovery, good zoning, good mindgames, great frame data, Fsmash kills earlier, good grab game, and if you don't stale them, Usmash and Dsmash kill MK at reasonable times.

Phil nye your too good. Now we got dj/wk for bowser, axe for pika,etc. It's still great.

Yeah, it's great, so celebrate with them in the Melee boards.

Player who came in and shook up the scene.

Pre-mango everyone pretty much knew who was going to be in the top, and no one guess a jiggs would be there.
Post-Mango everyone expects Mango win.

I remember how much of a stir Ally created, and it reminded me of all the 07 and 08 hype for Mango. Ally isn't as great respectably as Mango though, who is leaps and bounds above everyone else who plays Melee currently.



Yeah, we have quite a few actually. If we win a mindgame, we punish huge. Its what we do. Its also why I play A.B.A. in Guilty Gear.

This.

Just realized something.

@person who said Falco = Btier
High A tier, Mid A Tier at worst. I just don't feel him in S tier. <_<

I think Falco could be S-Tier. His lasers dominate, he has mad safe options, wracks up damage fast, and Usmash is a reasonable kill move. What's holding him back?

I think both DDD and Falco should drop down to A tier, but maybe that would outbalance A tier, since DDD and Falco seem to do better than the characters currently in that tier.

I don't think D3 is A-tier. Reading an aerial results in D3 getting punished, and D3's recovery is extremely punishable. Still, we are both advocating a drop. Falco might still be S-tier. What makes you doubt him?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Have you ever hit Diddy with a banana?

I gimped Hylian's Diddy Kong with a banana. Threw it, knocked off the barrels. It was pools yes, but it still proves they are usable against Diddy Kong. Ike, Wolf, and MK can also DACIT across like, almost all of FD with a banana.

 

[Palpi]

I played ADHD the other day and a big difference from other diddy's was I only hit him with 1 banana, though I threw atleast 6-7 in either glide tosses or insta-throws.. (Thus I got owned )

I think Falco is S tier.

 

[CRASHiC]

I don't think D3 is A-tier. Reading an aerial results in D3 getting punished, and D3's recovery is extremely punishable. Still, we are both advocating a drop. Falco might still be S-tier. What makes you doubt him?

Reading an aerial? Wario can't even do that on us :/ The key to beating the Wario matchup is quite simply spaming bair. Seriously. Seibrik and Co18 both agree it makes the matchup 60:40.
And D3's recovery is not punishable if done correctly. A good D3 is not going to get gimped. The whole grab out of his up b doesn't work if spaced properly, if spaced and timed properly, you aren't going to punish his recovery, and good luck trying to kill from above.
Falco is pathetic. His kill power is lacking, his chain grab is pathetic, and once he gets in for the close combat, he isn't nearly as good as when he's camping. Once you get him off stage, if you know what you are doing with most characters, he's done for. Luckily, that isn't very hard to do since Falco's camp the edge. I can name a few top DDD players who have all placed very high in nationals, but can only think of one Falco that has done the same. DDD has proven himself, despite are slight flop at Genesis (Co18 didn't know the Toon Link Matchup and Seibrik didn't go, not a clue about Lain and Atomsk)

 

[Pierce7d]

pit should acually go up and link to at least d snake should b a teir and ice climberz GOD

The internet is a fine place to abbreviate, but be considerate of your readers, as I'm not even entirely sure what you're saying. Also, please elaborate why you think those characters should be in those tiers, as you seem to feel quite strongly about it.

Er....

You might want to read up on all of those characters. A lot.

I agree. I believe the opinions are entirely unfounded.

Even though I realize you didn't put the characters in any order based on the tier you predict they would be in, I would think it would be a good idea because there is a lot of discussion on the order of the characters within the tier groups. There are a lot of instances where you point that out, but because there isn't a bases on how we should arrange the characters (or even have your opinion how the order of them), the discussion isn't going to far because for the most part, people do agree on the grouping of the characters but not on the particular "order" you have them in at this time.

Until I see what order you think they should be in, I will then weigh my opinion on that.

Perhaps later I will move around the order a bit. This is reasonable.

Then they shouldn't go down to A tier.

Not necessarily. It could mean the characters in that tier might need to drop to make room.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I played ADHD the other day and a big difference from other diddy's was I only hit him with 1 banana, though I threw atleast 6-7 in either glide tosses or insta-throws.. (Thus I got owned )

I think Falco is S tier.

I feel Falco is in the S-A tier range that much is certain. Anything below that is stupid. If you have a 0% to death combo or at least a 0%-60% combo on pretty much the whole cast, and argued to be the best camper in the entire game, that is a gurantee slot in the top ranks. Only downside is the recovery, killing and stage picks. With the right stage and character, Falco can easily get killed or lose a good part of the advantage.

With all that I think he is in the low end of stier or high end of A tier.

 

[mcmuff1nman]

Not to be bias (just a bit) but Olimar should be around where D3 is imo...

I mean, he is neutral against Pikachu, Falco ( I think we have the adv- we outcamp and our grabs and smash kill MUCH more reliably), Diddy (Pikmin throw stops nannerz and so do fsmashes) and Wario (grab, grab, grab and we're hard to hit from his air due to being so small. ).

He has a hard but winnable MU against Marth (pivot grab/sheild grab/use purples and yellows). He is beast against D3 (61:39 lol) and Snake (60:40 but i say 65:35). The only badMU is unfortunately with MK, 65:35. He gimps us like its going outta style. I think its winnable with patience and timing (with purples/yellows and blues).

His other 'bad' MUs are overrated also... like Peach and ROB. Upb disrupts Peach hugely and yellows and purples too. We outcamp ROB imo and he is easily 'comboed' if grabbed.
Also, Oli's nair has decent priority and is usually uexpected and can be land cancelled to a certain smash.

And dont forget super whistle armour! Saves me soo much.

EDIT: Looking at the list again, I dont see why Olimar cant even be above Marth....

 

[CRASHiC]

If you have a 0% to death combo or at least a 0%-60% combo on pretty much the whole cast, and argued to be the best camper in the entire game, that is a gurantee slot in the top ranks.

that combo sucks. Its techable. Tournament results equal to the other S-tier characters, Where are they, except for that 1 Cali Falco?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

0-60% is still 0-60%. That's nothing to laugh at. It's highly unlikely that it would be teched every time, and at a minimum it puts the opponent in a bad position off stage and up to 60% behind that stock.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

that combo sucks. Its techable. Tournament results equal to the other S-tier characters, Where are they, except for that 1 Cali Falco?

It's techable yes, but it's certainly weeds out the those who cannot tech it. Even if the spike is avoided, the CG still racks up good amount of damage. It's gurantees pretty much 50% from a single grab below 50%. With the correct reads you can improve it past that point. And even then Dthrow still sets up nicely after 50%. On a few matches against someone such at MK that is a lifesaver. MK can die once he reaches around 120%-130% or so from Falco. So knocking out almost half the damage needed to get into KO range is great. Plus getting the extra bit of percent shouldn't be to difficult because of Falco's excellent damage racking abilities. The same can be said for a few other match-ups where the CG will come in handy. Against Snake it can easily set-up for an easy egdeguard if Snake doesn't blow himself up sooner.

I'm not saying the CG is all that excellent, or the whole focus of his playstyle. I am just pointing out that it certainly helps make him like a mini-ICs. It's having probably the best camping game out of the whole cast that really makes him top tier into A or S.

It doesn't really matter if he has few tournament results or not. By just being able to place high, even if by one person, proves he does have potiental. And SK92 has placed high in a lot of major tournaments consistantly so it's not a one time fluk kind of a thing. Falco doesn't have the rep. that a lot of other characters have. The same can be said about a lot of there characters like Wario.

 

[CRASHiC]

0-60% is still 0-60%. That's nothing to laugh at. It's highly unlikely that it would be teched every time, and at a minimum it puts the opponent in a bad position off stage and up to 60% behind that stock.

Are you talking about the chaingrab? I was referring to another combo. Regardless, I still have seen no evidence in tournies of Falco being an S tier charecter.

 

[zeldspazz]

No, the Zelda/Sheik placing is based mainly with a mindset of a Sheik player, using Zelda to his advantage, as Zelda is so much trash it's pretty much always better to play Sheik. How do you land the connection with Zelda against the high tier characters? How does Zelda approach? How does Zelda deal with her opponent's shield?

No, its not always better to play as Sheik. Do you wanna pick Sheik and go play against Iceclimbers? DDD? Pika? Go right ahead if you'd like, but Zelda is the better choice by a decent margin in all those matchups. Do you wanna try to kill Snake with Sheik's decayed moves? Be my guest. With Zelda you can transform when Snake's at around 120% and kill him with 1 LK while out of his upb. Sheild an ftilt and punish with Fsmash Dsmash. They are are all gonna kill easily because Zelda moves ARE COMPLETELY FRESH. Zelda has insane power. And it's not like you're never going to get an opening. If you cant get one hit in, even on a high tier, you seriously suck. Also, Zelda isnt completely destroyed as you make her out to be. You're also not playing the entire game with her, you just need 1 hit.

And lol, Zelda cant approach for ****. You have to play reeeeally cautious and smart, but its entirely possible. Again, why do you tihnk Zelda cant do anything but sit there and get *****?

 

[SuSa]

that combo sucks. Its techable. Tournament results equal to the other S-tier characters, Where are they, except for that 1 Cali Falco?

Sk92 and Larry are the only Falco's I know of that consistently do well... lol

Anyways... I had like.. a 15 minute essay about why Falco should be lower (mid or higher still of A tier still...) but my internet died and I lost the reply....

tl;dr
Lasers are powershieldable, and that makes them near useless (powershielding isn't hard in Brawl..). They aren't hard to powershield either.
Chainspike is techable.
Landing the grab can actually be hard against any character that matters.
No reliable setups to KO unless opponent airdodges uair, eats a fresh bair. Airdodges into a charged fsmash, or doesn't powershield a laser and you DACUS, or they don't know the length of DACUS so you land it.. aka... they don't know the matchup

EDIT:
Also, Snake has a far better camping+stage control game against the majority of the cast then Falco. We can actually punish you for shielding/avoiding our grenades. All I have to do against Falco is powershield pew-pew..

 

[mcmuff1nman]

Olimar outcamps Falco imo, we can dtilt crawl under lazers, throw Pikmin, dtilt, etc...

 

[WaterTails]

that combo sucks. Its techable.

Maybe I'm thinking of a different combo than you, but how is a CG to DACUS techable? Also, platform laserlocks.

Where are they, except for that 1 Cali Falco?

We have SK92, too. DEHF isn't the only Falco player.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh. >_>

I see Falco as bottom of S tier. He simply racks up too much damage too quickly, on top of his great laser spam game (even with power shielding) to be lower then that. He has his issues obviously, but he puts the hurt on a LOT of characters.