Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[phi1ny3]

I see, so they're just in those categories. Explains a few of the positions, at first I was like "lol there's no way ____ is above _____ in tools and MUs". I still like the idea of making a discussion on the next tier list itself separate from the tier list thread, but that's just me.

Edit: Oh yeah, where's boozer anyways?

 

[ook]

D.K. is pretty straight forward. Good damage, good anti-approach, good weight, good kills. His frame data is just slightly underwhelming, and he doesn't really have really amazing pokes. Other that that, DK is really solid.

What... down-b, which has THE longest range of any ground move in the game, is completely disjointed, pushes people back, eats away at their shield, and beats any kind of dodges/rolls is not an amazing poke? Or if you're talking about shield pokes... I dare you to shield an up-b and not get poked. Plus, bair.


DK also has an approaching move that gives him 74 frames of super armor. Underwhelming frame data my ***



DK is frickin amazing

inb4dedede

 

[tocador]

What... down-b, which has THE longest range of any ground move in the game, is completely disjointed, pushes people back, eats away at their shield, and beats any kind of dodges/rolls is not an amazing poke? Or if you're talking about shield pokes... I dare you to shield an up-b and not get poked. Plus, bair.


DK also has an approaching move that gives him 74 frames of super armor. Underwhelming frame data my ***



DK is frickin amazing

inb4dedede

Have my babies b4dedede.

 

[saviorslegacy]

So this is the response I get........

I still lol'd



BTW... just because someone has over all more points than someone else doesn't mean squat in something like this.
That's like saying that the purple color shirt people are winning a ton of foot race's.
Now lets say that there are few good red shirt people but they are overall better than the purple.

Now because purple has more race's under their belt red is not better than them and never will be. Mainly because people will continue playing purple and give more race results.


^^^^^That is the sense it makes when people look at tourney results as a base on their opinion.


(on another topic)
You can also say that there are a TON of green shirt people and they have a few race's under their belt a piece. Together though they equal quite a bit. However the Sheik t-shirt people have very very few results. Even though they are an awesome character.
Now comparing an over all percentage the green is better than the Sheik because they have more results. -_-

That is the kind of sense I see a lot.

What... down-b, which has THE longest range of any ground move in the game, is completely disjointed, pushes people back, eats away at their shield, and beats any kind of dodges/rolls is not an amazing poke? Or if you're talking about shield pokes... I dare you to shield an up-b and not get poked. Plus, bair.


DK also has an approaching move that gives him 74 frames of super armor. Underwhelming frame data my ***



DK is frickin amazing

inb4dedede

Good points....

DK's only real weakness's are airial pressure, low recovery and of course.... an easy infinite.
He is set up only for a few people to main him because if he was over mained everyone would just pick up D3 and destroy DK.

 

[Pierce7d]

Zelda isn't F tier material.
Don't even insinuate that.
She may be BAD, but she's not THAT bad.'

Otherwise I agree with your list.

No actually, I think Zelda is the third worst character in the game. She has safe walls, and good kill power, but no approaches. Frame 5 dash attack would be OKAY if she didn't have a frame 12 grab. Her projectile is worthless, aerial approaches are worthless, and she just relies on a punishable Usmash and Dsmash. If you don't dodge, you win. She also can't recover without getting punished.

No love for Ike or Bowser?

Good list. The only things I really disagree with are Snake being below ICs and Lucas not being E tier.

I'm still unsure about Snake/IC. Why do you think Lucas is E tier.

Pierced, the problem with Mario is his tournament results are poor, and holding him back from raising in the tier list. He has some things going for him, but the lack of his results are hurting him severely at the moment from rising higher on the tier list. .

Please, just Pierce. the 7d additive is just because on some websites "Pierce" is already taken. A lot of characters are under developed because there are just better characters to use. Everytime I play Mario, I'm reminded of why I main Marth, but Mario is still good.

Well I might as well give my opinions on this:

S Tier: Not 100% sure about the order of the characters, but those 4 characters are definitely in S tier.
A Tier: I kinda get your point saying "these characters are extremely good, but not the best" but it might consist of more characters
B Tier: I like it. Really solid characters that aren't really broken.
C Tier: Once again, I like. As you said, these characters rely on your skill. Some characters might be switched around a bit like 2 spaces max. Honestly though, I think Luigi should be a bit higher placed then you put him. He has really good kill power. Like possible to kill really heavy characters like D3 and Snake at 130 or lower except for his shoryuken which kills them at like 70. He can combo very well. That nair is sexy. It has a stupid amount of priority AND it's a kill move. He has 3 ways to recover and a momentum cancel (fair + green missile). I think he's upper mid tier in your version of the tier list. I'm very happy with what you wrote about Mario.
D Tier: With what I've seen Ness > Lucas though that might be the fact that the players are better. Honestly I'm not sure. I feel sorry for Wolf though because of what you said. If he didn't fall for every gay tactic, he would be a solid mid tier character.
E-F Tier: I know little to none of what these characters can do. I don't really see anything.

Put something in for Ike, Bowser, Ganon, and Zelda and Shiek separately. The two of them are different characters. Zelda isn't good while Shiek alone can be a solid mid tier character. Also I noticed you didn't make any minor changes, just major ones. Is that on purpose?

My changes are how I feel they are. And remember, the characters are NOT in order within the lettered tiers.

Great TL, i just think that Olimar isnt really B tier material tho.

I think Olimar is good based on how many purples he gets, LOL. Still Olimar has low priority and a poor recovery, but a STUPIDLY solid camping game that's hard to ignore. Why do you think he's C (or lower)

that's true that snake have to rely on mistakes

Okay. I'm glad you agree with me, but in the future, please elaborate or contribute something resourceful to the thread.

He said in no particular order.
Lucas belongs in D.

Precisely. Within the tiers, characters are not ordered.

Is this a Marth match up thread? lol. That's what this tier list seems like to me.

Not at all, or top 5 would be, MK, R.O.B. DK, Snake, D3 IMO.

As long as Kirby doesn't drop from #13 and ZSS is no lower than mid, I'm good with whatever else you write... But people suddenly started underestimating Kirby, and I find that to be quite uncool. He IS good enough to be within the best 1/3 of the cast, and I don't say this because I'm biased (although it might have a bit to do with it)... I've used him for about a year now, and I KNOW his limitations and strengths inside-out to the max, and he DEFINITELY should stay that high.

Once lots people learn how to use Kirby and prove to me that he sucks, THEN will I be willing to take back my words... Until then, NOOOOOOOO!!!! He IS good, and randomly underestimated!

I'm glad you have faith in your main and know a lot with him, but please elaborate on why you think Kirby is as good as he is.

He also said Snake is the 4th best character in the game.

Yes, but that is a specific instance.

I don't see Snake moving from #2. If you look at Ankoku's list, the gap between Snake and 3rd place is steadily increasing. I can see Snake being very close to MK on the list next year.

2 Snake (73 top8, 34 top4, 25 top2, 27 wins) - 1547.4

3 Diddy Kong (44 top8, 22 top4, 14 top2, 8 wins) - 613.3 - 5

He already has 3 times Diddy's points.

I agree with Ice Climbers at #3 but I'd put Diddy at #4. Sorry Diddy.

I don't see Sonic moving either.

I think Mario may move up but I don't think he's better than Luigi.

Snake is more developed than Diddy due to being as popular for longer. Diddy is quite clearly on the rise. Wait until next season and then look at the results. Also, to be fair, Snake might beat Diddy, and do fine vs MK, whereas Diddy might lose to Snake and do fine against MK. If they are top three, I can see how this puts Snake on top. At the moment, D3 is too limited to come out in numbers and take out the Snakes. The metagame is fun right now, and having pocket A and B tier characters is pretty useful.

Yoshi the Eternal Scrub reappears despite not playing Brawl anymore and giving out of date info on the metagame!
That list is inaccurate, the person who does the list admits this. Its fun, but don't take that ranking list to heart.

Please do not bash other people. The list is accurate with my opinion but characters aren't ordered within the tiers.

I do agree with you lowering Wario, because I thought his sudden skyrocket in the list was unwarranted. But I do believe that Falco should be in the S tier instead of ICs. True, Falco does do bad against them, but most other characters, especially Snake, make up for that match-up. Plus if Popo is by himself against almost any character, he gets *****. In lower match-ups, no way Mario will ever get that high, because of his Dedede problem. And Zelda/Sheik should be two different characters, because I doubt you can ever change safely between the two in Brawl.

So your reasoning is that Falco, who also does good vs MK and Snake, should be above IC, because Snake ***** ICs? Interesting. I've been hovering around this idea myself lately. I also see your perspective on Mario, but I think that outside of the D3 issue, he's still a solid character. With infinities off, it's definitely win-able. Just challenging (and boring.) Zelda and Sheik can be switched between. I'm saddened I cannot fight you to show you.

how can IC's be better than snake if they get ***** by snake
this list... im sorry, its so wrong on so many levels

IC lose to ROB I hear, but they're better than ROB. If you think my list is wrong (and remember, it's an outline in which characters are not ordered within the tiers)

I transform safely easily. Also, look up their transformation jump. Out of hitstun, they can double jump and immediately do either a neutral, up or down B and get a massive vertical boost. Easily safe transformation. They compliment each other to not be a single character.

And tehf1r3, Olimar beats Snake. Does that mean Olimar should be above Snake?

This, although Snake players would argue that Snake can also 0 to death Olimar in a dthrow tech chase, the point is valid.

Well, when you take an inaccurate list and you use it as an arguing point, then yet.
If it was accurate, that is a rank of their general tournament rankings.
What a tier list does is show their highest possible potential, not their overall potential.

Precisely.

 

[Kewkky]

What... down-b, which has THE longest range of any ground move in the game, is completely disjointed, pushes people back, eats away at their shield, and beats any kind of dodges/rolls is not an amazing poke?

.... And how does this, exactly, hit opponents who approach from the air, or jump as soon as you downB? What's the big deal with a grounded attack that can be avoided by REACTION, and punished for starting it up?

inb4dedede

That's what I thought you said.

 

[j0s3ph]

I do not think Diddy is the best in the game. If you watch someone who really knows how to fight a Diddy, it can be a difficult match. Keeping him pressured so he can't pluck bananas is the key imo, most people try to use his bananas against him but it would be better to just throw them away. Keep him in constant pressure and he can not get a nana, so he must rely on his average a-attacks.

Considering I second Diddy I look forward to being proven wrong by your thread though.

 

[fkacyan]

I don't think anybody's ever going to agree with my opinion of Falco. Maybe once more people realize how few options he actually has, he'll go to B-tier where he deserves.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

In tier list v4, Ganon SHOULD drop to G-Tier, I don't see why people haven't started realizing this. Ganon was made to be a offensive character, but he fails at that, he has no safe, reliable, or quick moves. He can't approach, and he's VERY limited. That said, he's no good at playing defensive either, as Pierce said in the 'Opening Page', you should check Ganon's frame data (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236778).

His match-ups are dreadful.

Look at this.

If you didn't cry after seeing that, you're inhuman. These crappy match-ups should drop him down to G-tier.

Link should go above Samus, Jigglypuff, Falcon in tier list v4. The Link mains at AIB are so pessimistic about their match-ups, that they actually purposely underrated them, they were claiming the Link:Ganon match-up 55-45 in Ganon's favor. I could give tons of reason why Link's a much better character than Samus on the top of my head.

Yoshi should rise a few spots. Zelda should stay in D Tier. Sonic should drop to D Tier. Ness, Lucas, and Mario should all rise to D Tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Okay, quick summery about Mario:

While I see potential for Mario to move up to top of D tier: it ain't happening. You can't make tier lists on future potential, only current and used potential. Yes, Mario does have his amazing capeing a ledge grabbing opponent glitch and other things, as well as his amazing gimp game but nobody can/will use them, and thus you can't really account for them in the tier list until multiple people are able to do so. Otherwise it's theorycrafting, which can get quite ugly. ("Every hard hitter should move up because in theory they can time their powerful attacks to nail opponents during the 1/3 frames of landing lag where they can't do anything." For example. The only heavy hitter that is ever close to doing this is Ike with his Hyphen smash. And it still rarely happens.)

As for Diddy being best: Don't see it at all. Besides having a few match-ups not in his favor (unlike MK), he has even less KO power, some stages which don't work well for him (unlike MK and quite possibly Snake), less range, and nothing that is truly broken. (Like MK's Dsmash or Snake's tilts. His bananas come close, but they can be used against him occasionally. Lol tossing a banana into his jet pack. If even a scrub like me during my first tournament can manage that, it's fully doable.) He does have to commit himself to KO most of the time, which hinders him slightly. Fsmash has decent KOing power, but it's DI/SDIable. Either that, or he has to wait until the opponent is at an embarrassing high %. I would say his recovery is overall worse then Snake's due to the long charging time if he needs to go a good distance, but is still very good. While good at racking up damage, he's not as good at shield poking like MK or Wario, or shield damaging like Snake. His stage control is also second banana (lol pun) to Snake's.

He's top tier for sure, but not the best. Third or fourth best.

IC's should be top four yet. I can see top tier, but only if it's as a fifth spot. CP can really screw them over, and they have a few funny disadvantages (Zelda, I will keep saying Ike beats them until we rediscuss that match-up, I believe there are a few others as well.)

 

[CRASHiC]

Please do not bash other people. The list is accurate with my opinion but characters aren't ordered within the tiers.

I meant the Character Ranking List. Not yours.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Lucci's usmash is not at all safe in most situations, and his dtilt isn't all that fast.

Just sayin'.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W rules. ICs are overrated, as is Diddy.

 

[SuSa]

If you think Snake's metagame is stalling or coming to a close you are wrong. There are still sooo many things we don't know and things we haven't looked into entirely.

I'll be spending the next few weeks perfecting the MK matchup, what is punishable. Is it punishable if perfectly spaced? Is it punishable if powershielded? Is it still punishable if NOT powershielded? Is there possibly a better way to use grenades (Ally taught me some stuff, I used it, it helped. I think there may be more things and positions we can use for grenades to help)

Then there is the important thing. Do not commit to ftilt if they shield/powershield the first hit. I was told to do this, but failed sometimes (2nd hit would hit sometimes though..) so I'll be finding out who can punish a buffered 2nd ftilt if they:
1) Powershield the first hit
2) Normal Shield the first hit

Then I'm going to see what they can use to punish. (This will be tested at the full range of Ftilt1) (I'm thinking mostly dash grabs/dash attacks)

I'm going to gather frame data on getup attacks (buffered) from Snake's dthrow. What is shieldable on reaction? (Going to have a friend be tech chased, and randomly throw in a getup attack here and there. That way I don't know when it's coming)

Can we shield on reaction before AND after 100%? Just after 100%? Or never?

Out of the 11 characters who have an away-towards attack, how realistic is it to pull off the "pause and react" idea of "infiniting them" based on reaction?

Is there any stage that acts like the Rock transformation on Pokemon Stadium 1? (Where there roll is cut short by the stage) (Besides platforms) ---- mostly because getting a grab there just plain out *****....

On Japes, is there any real way to DI the bthrow stage spike on the platform to avoid the stage spike? If so, which characters can DI out of it? Which is it guarenteed on? Who and what % can it be a guarenteed KO on the left side? (PS: I've pulled this off multiple times, including in tournament. It's not THAT situational...) (Yes, it can be teched....but I think we MIGHT be able to bair you if you tech it. I'll be testing for that as well)

Can the sliding spotdodge (pull a grenade, dash then spotdodge almost in the same moment. (It's a down/side direction on the analog stick + Shield. It can move both backwards and forwards) be useful besides the slight spacing gained from it?

How can Snake DI out of a move the best way AND be able to punish it? (EG: MK's ftilt. MK's tornado)

Again certain characters (MK included), if they roll towards the ledge of a stage and you ftilt them. The 2nd hit won't hit (thank you Ally for reminding me + pointing this out to me). Is dtilt a good option, or is there a way to safely space+grab them to dthrow them at the edge, but not have them be able to uair you for doing so? If you shield their getup attack when they are that close, will they be pushed off the stage (if not powershielded)?

What moves, and at what % can we DI down, tech and jab/ftilt/utilt? (EG: You can DI Sonic's dthrow down, and utilt him. You can tech G&W's dthrow, and IIRC Jab him. Maybe more..)

Is there ANY use to the "grenade self destruct" (below...30%? I believe... I know it at least goes up to 20%)? (Hold grenade, let explode, DI down+tech) --- so far it's only use is to avoid Pikachu's CG by damaging yourself. You CAN do this to Falco's.. but I don't really recommend it against them.

Those are all minor things, but they are there non-the-less.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'm aware Sheik has set ups. Nearly everything Sheik does sets up her next move, which makes her so good. However, it's not a lie to say that she has difficulty landing kills against many characters. Grab release Dacus does help a lot though.

There is definitely priority in this game, lmao. If I jab with Marth, the same time Ganon fsmashes, at point blank, Marth loses. You can see hitbox on Ganon's fsmash cancel out the hitbox of the jab, and hit Marth through it. It's easiest to see with projectiles. If I'm Marth, I can fsmash through Lucario's uncharged AS and hit him if I'm near enough. If I jab them, it'll clash. If I jab a fully charged one while Lucario is at higher percent, it will cancel out my jab and hit me. This is priority, and where it's easiest to see with projectiles, it's true of all hitboxes in the game. I'm not going to go into an in depth lesson on priority here, but it's suffice to say that outside of Dsmash, Sheik has relatively low priority.

Also, what you described is an attack having different properties on it's hitboxes. It is not priority or disjointedness. Disjointedness is when a character's hitboxes (on non-projectile attacks) is do not overlap with the hurtbox of the character. D3's Bair is a good example of a disjointed attack, as well as Marth's Fair. If D3 and Marth Bair and Fair at each other, but the foot only connects with the sword, and the sword only connects through the foot, the attacks will go right through each other. This is disjointedness. Since D3's Bair has so much range and stays out so long, it's an extremely good disjointed attack. Sheik does not have any disjointed moves except SideB that I'm aware of. If I Fair with Marth, and Sheik ftilts, my sword will still cut Sheik, even if I only hit her foot where she is ftilting.

I also play Sheik.

If you think that then you aren't playing Sheik correctly.

I listed many ways to set up kill's. There are also other ways such as guarding the stage to finish with Bair.
Her killing game is rather broad and far from limited.
Many people just over look that.


lol, priority is an illusion. If you space back enough you can clank Sheik's jab and Ike's FSmash.
You can of course admit that jab now goes through everything and there is nothing you can do about it. lol
*read http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249238

K, then here is her disjointed tier list:
Chain
Bair
FSmash
u-tilt
DSmash
f-tilt

All of those are disjointed.

 

[CRASHiC]

Besides having a few match-ups not in his favor

About this, in Blazblue, the top teir charecter has a bad matchup, while the 2nd has no bad matchups. Its odd, but its just how it works.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

About this, in Blazblue, the top teir charecter has a bad matchup, while the 2nd has no bad matchups. Its odd, but its just how it works.

>_>

That makes no sense to me, but that's a different game.

 

[CRASHiC]

>_>

That makes no sense to me, but that's a different game.

Because she has the tools to overcome that matchup.
Even more ironic, her bad matchup is the second ranked character.

 

[Pierce7d]

We go 55-45 with MK mm kay?
We have many tools. You think MK can downair camp? Wait till you see us down air camp.
We don't have trouble with Range. We beat Marth straight up.
DDD has plenty of tools, such as B reversal inhale for the oli matchup, Bair camping against wario, and down air camping against ICs (seibrik says that puts it in our favor)
And If the D3 is playing as I am expecting, the diddy can neither approach or repeal are air camping.
What is Diddy's Answer to our air camping game, which is better than Metaknight's?

MK has many options when he inevitably must land. D3 does not. Diddy can simply move away from D3 and use a projectile that causes you to trip when you land on it. Grabbing the banana limits your moveset, and Diddy tripping is a joke. You cannot actively deal with Diddy camping back, Diddy can full hop peanut or banana toss at D3, or even SideB if he wants. His Fair is extremely fast and huge.

Perhaps I'm underestimating D3's aircamping game. I definitely would like to elaborate more on this MU. I just don't see D3 remaining as safe while he aircamps, if the opponent chooses to disengage.

I'm not saying whether they belong above him or not, but just because a character has a better match-up against one character that's above them doesn't necessarily make them better than that character. Say Character A beats Character B, but B has a good match-up against characters C, D, E, F, and G, who also all beat A. B has better match-ups in general than A, which would make B better than A even though A beats B, assuming the tier list is based on match-ups. Similarly, just because Snake beats ICs doesn't mean he's better than them.

Edit: multi-ninja'd. :|

lol, this though

Pierce's list is total BS, lololololol.

As for the NEXT tier list, all i care about is for the low tier part to be more accurate. It is HARDCORE messed up right now.

Cool. I'm glad you think so. WHY? Also, I agree, but unfortunately, it's really hard to make accurate tier ordering because the low tiers are used less. I've learned a lot about some of them, but I still need to learn more about C.Falcon, Lucas, Ness, Jigglypuff, and Samus, before making real decisions on where they truly stand.

people think ness is low tier...lol

So I'm assuming you don't think so. That's cool. WHY?

DO HO HO HO

Low tier is always ignored in favor of the "more important" tiers. That and low tiers aren't well repped.

The list doesn't even matter minus what we decide to allow in low tier tournaments.

It's more the second thing you said. A lot of us care about the low tiers, but we simply don't know where they go because of no representation.

Kirby is definately good. When I play him, it's hard to kill and approach without getting in bad positions though.

Falco above ICs, please. -_-

Yes, it's Kirby's hitbox activity and disjointedness which make him safer than you would think, and secure his place over a similar character. Also, his tilts are amazing, and his kill power is boss. Too bad he's lightweight.

I know that your tier list is just a rough outline, but you should order each character as you have them in your condensed version, otherwise people will keep on confusing themselves.

Well I might move them around a little, but it still wouldn't represent my true feelings, as there are a lot of places within the tiers that I feel very unsure of.

Oh, I just noticed, you don't have Bowser in there either.

I see, so they're just in those categories. Explains a few of the positions, at first I was like "lol there's no way ____ is above _____ in tools and MUs". I still like the idea of making a discussion on the next tier list itself separate from the tier list thread, but that's just me.

Edit: Oh yeah, where's boozer anyways?

Bowser is coming, no worries.

What... down-b, which has THE longest range of any ground move in the game, is completely disjointed, pushes people back, eats away at their shield, and beats any kind of dodges/rolls is not an amazing poke? Or if you're talking about shield pokes... I dare you to shield an up-b and not get poked. Plus, bair.


DK also has an approaching move that gives him 74 frames of super armor. Underwhelming frame data my ***



DK is frickin amazing

inb4dedede

It's pretty obvious I rushed on the DK section. I think DK is a fairly solid character. Thank you for elaboration. Still, if Punch is uncharged, how does DK approach the High Tiered characters?

Have my babies b4dedede.

I loled, but please contribute if you're going to post.

I still lol'd



BTW... just because someone has over all more points than someone else doesn't mean squat in something like this.
That's like saying that the purple color shirt people are winning a ton of foot race's.
Now lets say that there are few good red shirt people but they are overall better than the purple.

Now because purple has more race's under their belt red is not better than them and never will be. Mainly because people will continue playing purple and give more race results.


^^^^^That is the sense it makes when people look at tourney results as a base on their opinion.


(on another topic)
You can also say that there are a TON of green shirt people and they have a few race's under their belt a piece. Together though they equal quite a bit. However the Sheik t-shirt people have very very few results. Even though they are an awesome character.
Now comparing an over all percentage the green is better than the Sheik because they have more results. -_-

That is the kind of sense I see a lot.


Good points....

DK's only real weakness's are airial pressure, low recovery and of course.... an easy infinite.
He is set up only for a few people to main him because if he was over mained everyone would just pick up D3 and destroy DK.

I understood this. And yes, remember that a lot of people use MK, but it doesn't mean MK is, say, three times better than Diddy.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucci's usmash is not at all safe in most situations, and his dtilt isn't all that fast.

Just sayin'.

Of course it is...

Spoiler

When they're trying to challenge it instead of just landing -> punish

 

[ru5514n]

The biggest reason I don't believe IC belong in the top tier is look what happened in Melee. Yes, I realize melee is a different game. But in it, ICs had an infinite (wobbling) that wasn't too hard to learn, worked on every character in the game, and usually wasn't banned. Yet very few people switched to ICs, and they stayed in a respectable position within the tier list, but never quite got in the top five spots. I believe the same thing will happen in Brawl.

 

[LoganW]

IC's fell behind the metagame in melee. Don't bring it up in here

 

[CRASHiC]

Diddy can simply move away from D3 and use a projectile that causes you to trip when you land on it. Grabbing the banana limits your moveset, and Diddy tripping is a joke. You cannot actively deal with Diddy camping back, Diddy can full hop peanut or banana toss at D3, or even SideB if he wants. His Fair is extremely fast and huge.

Banana? Tripping us, IN THE AIR?!?!?! MAGIC!
We start our downair camping by picking up the banana with Downair, When then throw it up (as to not give it back to Diddy) and start downair camping, picking up the naner as we go.
We see you shoot a peanut, we back air. We see you throw a banana, we catch. We see you forward air, we bair (yes its disjointed before you ask). We see you side b, we forward air.
As for our landing options, auto cancel leads perfectly into uptilt, downsmash, downtilt, grab, inhale, another downair, bair, or forward tilt.

I think you have a very limited idea of DDDs moveset, based completly off the standard way of playing him. Are you aware we have a guaranteed dash attack on you guys and a guaranteed forward smash on Snake?

IC's fell behind the metagame in melee. Don't bring it up in here

no, it works. People learned how to fight ICs in melee, and it had nothing to do with things that are in Melee and not in Brawl. In fact, ICs are better in Melee. They have combos into grab, as well as leads into kill moves. They have neither of thsoe here. Even more, there duo status gave them the ability to mess up your combos pretty heavily. ICs fell behind because people learned how to fight them by seperation and camping. The same tactic is still being applied and experimented with in Brawl.

 

[LoganW]

i think diddy wins

 

[CRASHiC]

i think diddy wins

You don't play Brawl.

 

[LoganW]

In fact, ICs are better in Melee.

Every character was better in melee

 

[CRASHiC]

Every character was better in melee

Game N Watch
Kirby

 

[LoganW]

You don't play Brawl.

you dont play melee

 

[phi1ny3]

no, it works. People learned how to fight ICs in melee, and it had nothing to do with things that are in Melee and not in Brawl. In fact, ICs are better in Melee. They have combos into grab, as well as leads into kill moves. They have neither of thsoe here. Even more, there duo status gave them the ability to mess up your combos pretty heavily. ICs fell behind because people learned how to fight them by seperation and camping. The same tactic is still being applied and experimented with in Brawl.

I agree quite a bit with this actually, and it's the reason why I don't see ICs too much as rising in the top 3. I can see them maybe as like 5th best, but they have some serious consequences in this game if the character is able to play crazy safe, plus it's not like they are invincible themselves, although they have some pretty nasty tools in their stubby hands.

 

[CRASHiC]

you dont play melee

Yes I do. I've played with Rockcrock, Phanna, and an ICs who I don't remember his tag. I used Jiggly and got my *** kicked. Now I know my charecter is DK, and thus, don't go to tourneys for it.

although they have some pretty nasty tools in their stubby hands.

Hylian claims his new dysynch gives them a setup into grab, but I've yet to see it do so. The future is uncertain for ICs imo. I'm interested in seing where they go. I do believe that ICs, Diddy, and Snake can all go against MKs favor someday, but that is yet to be seen.

 

[LoganW]

i mean that every charcter is more entertaining and can do much cooler things in melee i dont care about brawl

i used to play brawl. I mained ddd I watched videos constantly, I still have an understanding of the metagame. Has a top d3 beaten a top diddy? Idk, just wandering. Oh, i post around here sometimes because people respond so fast here

 

[tocador]

I think Olimar is good based on how many purples he gets, LOL. Still Olimar has low priority and a poor recovery, but a STUPIDLY solid camping game that's hard to ignore. Why do you think he's C (or lower)

His stupid camping game, is in fact, not that stupid to breach. Sure he can rack some % fast, but he cant really keep you off unless he has some purples, and considering he dies easily, its cost effective to take some % to pikmin but to throw that ******* off stage.

So, really, the camping even tho racks %, can only keep you off based on purple count, so as you said, purple = olimar game. That said, his game pretty much relies on purples all together, and other thant that(you need luck) his other flaws are blatantly obvious are bad(bad getup = lots of ukemi, very gimpable).

But i think you still say some truth with his position, oli is in fact having a bad meta-game advancement, a slow one, so he cant really shine. But as soon as he gets a improvement i'd say he can be where he is(or even higher).

But going from today's metagame, he just dosent really deserver that spot yet. YET.

@Craschic: Show the donkey monkey some love, i go to melee tourneys with DK, its fun =p. But then, i main DK + M2, so im used to getting my *** kicked. But then², Bum + Taj = my heroes.

 

[CRASHiC]

i mean that every charcter is more entertaining and can do much cooler things in melee i dont care about brawl

Yeah, Kirby's got some crazy sick kill moves and GnW has the best shield ever in Melee. Yep. What does entertainment have to do with a tier list? And why are you always in Brawl threads

 

[phi1ny3]

I dunno, I didn't like the fact that my Melee main in nearly every viable MU discussion was considered dangerous for only Wavedashed dtilt, although he was pretty awesome. X3

 

[ru5514n]

i mean that every charcter is more entertaining and can do much cooler things in melee i dont care about brawl

I mostly agree, but this is a Brawl discussion thread after all.

 

[LoganW]

i know, you brought up melee. I just like how everyones got crazy **** they can pull off in melee tho. Crashic I post in brawl cause it moves fast and i'm really bored right now.
watch this **** cause this is what I mean:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9bD8NCEGRw

 

[CRASHiC]

Has a top d3 beaten a top diddy? Idk, just wandering. Oh, i post around here sometimes because people respond so fast here

Atomsk beat ADHD in tournament not to long ago. The matchup is regarded 45-55 in Diddy's slight favor, though once Seibrik gets more experiance with that matchup, I'd be very interested in seeing how that goes. Seibrik can overcome any of our matchups, seriously.

 

[LoganW]

cool. I think i saw that and adhd won the set iirc?
did you see my video?
oh, I thought some guy name co something was best d3. I saw his combo vid like a year and a half ago he uses the purple robe

 

[Pierce7d]

I do not think Diddy is the best in the game. If you watch someone who really knows how to fight a Diddy, it can be a difficult match. Keeping him pressured so he can't pluck bananas is the key imo, most people try to use his bananas against him but it would be better to just throw them away. Keep him in constant pressure and he can not get a nana, so he must rely on his average a-attacks.

Considering I second Diddy I look forward to being proven wrong by your thread though.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm extremely good at the Diddy MU. I look forward to writing that thread.

I don't think anybody's ever going to agree with my opinion of Falco. Maybe once more people realize how few options he actually has, he'll go to B-tier where he deserves.

Your view on Falco is misguided. I once shared a similar mindset until I realized many, many amazing things about Falco.

In tier list v4, Ganon SHOULD drop to G-Tier, I don't see why people haven't started realizing this. Ganon was made to be a offensive character, but he fails at that, he has no safe, reliable, or quick moves. He can't approach, and he's VERY limited. That said, he's no good at playing defensive either, as Pierce said in the 'Opening Page', you should check Ganon's frame data (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236778).

His match-ups are dreadful.

Look at this.

If you didn't cry after seeing that, you're inhuman. These crappy match-ups should drop him down to G-tier.

Link should go above Samus, Jigglypuff, Falcon in tier list v4. The Link mains at AIB are so pessimistic about their match-ups, that they actually purposely underrated them, they were claiming the Link:Ganon match-up 55-45 in Ganon's favor. I could give tons of reason why Link's a much better character than Samus on the top of my head.

Yoshi should rise a few spots. Zelda should stay in D Tier. Sonic should drop to D Tier. Ness, Lucas, and Mario should all rise to D Tier.

I agree with Ganon potentially being G-Tier. However, please elaborate on the rest of your suggested changes. I'm interested in your opinion and explination.

Okay, quick summery about Mario:

While I see potential for Mario to move up to top of D tier: it ain't happening. You can't make tier lists on future potential, only current and used potential. Yes, Mario does have his amazing capeing a ledge grabbing opponent glitch and other things, as well as his amazing gimp game but nobody can/will use them, and thus you can't really account for them in the tier list until multiple people are able to do so. Otherwise it's theorycrafting, which can get quite ugly. ("Every hard hitter should move up because in theory they can time their powerful attacks to nail opponents during the 1/3 frames of landing lag where they can't do anything." For example. The only heavy hitter that is ever close to doing this is Ike with his Hyphen smash. And it still rarely happens.)

As for Diddy being best: Don't see it at all. Besides having a few match-ups not in his favor (unlike MK), he has even less KO power, some stages which don't work well for him (unlike MK and quite possibly Snake), less range, and nothing that is truly broken. (Like MK's Dsmash or Snake's tilts. His bananas come close, but they can be used against him occasionally. Lol tossing a banana into his jet pack. If even a scrub like me during my first tournament can manage that, it's fully doable.) He does have to commit himself to KO most of the time, which hinders him slightly. Fsmash has decent KOing power, but it's DI/SDIable. Either that, or he has to wait until the opponent is at an embarrassing high %. I would say his recovery is overall worse then Snake's due to the long charging time if he needs to go a good distance, but is still very good. While good at racking up damage, he's not as good at shield poking like MK or Wario, or shield damaging like Snake. His stage control is also second banana (lol pun) to Snake's.

He's top tier for sure, but not the best. Third or fourth best.

IC's should be top four yet. I can see top tier, but only if it's as a fifth spot. CP can really screw them over, and they have a few funny disadvantages (Zelda, I will keep saying Ike beats them until we rediscuss that match-up, I believe there are a few others as well.)

Your hard hitting theory is flawed. While it's true that characters have lag on landing (I believe it's 2 on average and 6 when fast falling on average), you can hit a character if they approach with a slow move like that. Also, I rarely aim to gimp people with Mario. I just use his regular tools in a really smart way.

Diddy Kong I will discuss when I write the thread about him. MK's Dsmash is FAR from broken. It's just good. Banana's ARE broken. Diddy Kong's recover is really good, but I would agree it's slightly worse than Snake. However, due to sideB and his own Breversal, Diddy is harder to juggle/edge pressure.

Why do you think IC lose to Zelda? Fsmash is good, but is it enough?

Lucci's usmash is not at all safe in most situations, and his dtilt isn't all that fast.

Just sayin'.

I'm aware Usmash isn't safe (nor is dsmash) but fsmash is. Dtilt is moderately fast. Frame 6 I believe without extensive cool down.

G&W rules. ICs are overrated, as is Diddy.

Elaborate please.

If you think Snake's metagame is stalling or coming to a close you are wrong. There are still sooo many things we don't know and things we haven't looked into entirely.

I'll be spending the next few weeks perfecting the MK matchup, what is punishable. Is it punishable if perfectly spaced? Is it punishable if powershielded? Is it still punishable if NOT powershielded? Is there possibly a better way to use grenades (Ally taught me some stuff, I used it, it helped. I think there may be more things and positions we can use for grenades to help)

Then there is the important thing. Do not commit to ftilt if they shield/powershield the first hit. I was told to do this, but failed sometimes (2nd hit would hit sometimes though..) so I'll be finding out who can punish a buffered 2nd ftilt if they:
1) Powershield the first hit
2) Normal Shield the first hit

Then I'm going to see what they can use to punish. (This will be tested at the full range of Ftilt1) (I'm thinking mostly dash grabs/dash attacks)

I'm going to gather frame data on getup attacks (buffered) from Snake's dthrow. What is shieldable on reaction? (Going to have a friend be tech chased, and randomly throw in a getup attack here and there. That way I don't know when it's coming)

Can we shield on reaction before AND after 100%? Just after 100%? Or never?

Out of the 11 characters who have an away-towards attack, how realistic is it to pull off the "pause and react" idea of "infiniting them" based on reaction?

Is there any stage that acts like the Rock transformation on Pokemon Stadium 1? (Where there roll is cut short by the stage) (Besides platforms) ---- mostly because getting a grab there just plain out *****....

On Japes, is there any real way to DI the bthrow stage spike on the platform to avoid the stage spike? If so, which characters can DI out of it? Which is it guarenteed on? Who and what % can it be a guarenteed KO on the left side? (PS: I've pulled this off multiple times, including in tournament. It's not THAT situational...) (Yes, it can be teched....but I think we MIGHT be able to bair you if you tech it. I'll be testing for that as well)

Can the sliding spotdodge (pull a grenade, dash then spotdodge almost in the same moment. (It's a down/side direction on the analog stick + Shield. It can move both backwards and forwards) be useful besides the slight spacing gained from it?

How can Snake DI out of a move the best way AND be able to punish it? (EG: MK's ftilt. MK's tornado)

Again certain characters (MK included), if they roll towards the ledge of a stage and you ftilt them. The 2nd hit won't hit (thank you Ally for reminding me + pointing this out to me). Is dtilt a good option, or is there a way to safely space+grab them to dthrow them at the edge, but not have them be able to uair you for doing so? If you shield their getup attack when they are that close, will they be pushed off the stage (if not powershielded)?

What moves, and at what % can we DI down, tech and jab/ftilt/utilt? (EG: You can DI Sonic's dthrow down, and utilt him. You can tech G&W's dthrow, and IIRC Jab him. Maybe more..)

Is there ANY use to the "grenade self destruct" (below...30%? I believe... I know it at least goes up to 20%)? (Hold grenade, let explode, DI down+tech) --- so far it's only use is to avoid Pikachu's CG by damaging yourself. You CAN do this to Falco's.. but I don't really recommend it against them.

Those are all minor things, but they are there non-the-less.

In no way did I mean to imply that Snake's metagame was getting stagnant, but perhaps you should talk to Ally. When I last spoke to him, he implied that he was getting bored because there was nothing left to learn or work on except Smash DI.

If you think that then you aren't playing Sheik correctly.

I listed many ways to set up kill's. There are also other ways such as guarding the stage to finish with Bair.
Her killing game is rather broad and far from limited.
Many people just over look that.


lol, priority is an illusion. If you space back enough you can clank Sheik's jab and Ike's FSmash.
You can of course admit that jab now goes through everything and there is nothing you can do about it. lol
*read http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249238

K, then here is her disjointed tier list:
Chain
Bair
FSmash
u-tilt
DSmash
f-tilt

All of those are disjointed.

Though there are many mysterious about why certain moves clash with other moves clearly out of their power class, it is quite obvious that priority is a feature in this game, simply by using the example I used in the game, and other such examples. Perhaps Sheik's jab has high priority. Falco's does. Also, it is possible some of her moves are disjointed, but I was not aware of her tilts or Smash attacks. My Sheik is pretty new, perhaps you could teach me more. However, against the High Tiers and smart players, I would definitely say that there is a killing issue.

About this, in Blazblue, the top teir charecter has a bad matchup, while the 2nd has no bad matchups. Its odd, but its just how it works.

>_>

That makes no sense to me, but that's a different game.

Because she has the tools to overcome that matchup.
Even more ironic, her bad matchup is the second ranked character.

In BlazBlue, Nu destroys most of the cast way more than Jin/Ranga/Rachel. I forget who's rank 2 right now, but even if they beat Nu, it's by a tiny amount, and Nu is much better than the rest versus the cast.

 

[CRASHiC]

cool. I think i saw that and adhd won the set iirc?
did you see my video?
oh, I thought some guy name co something was best d3. I saw his combo vid like a year and a half ago he uses the purple robe

Co18 and Seibrik are both the top D3s. You really can't put one over the other. They both play different, and are of equal skill.
The difference between the too right now, Co18 doesn't come on the forums, Seibrik is doing all he can to help us out.

Also, no, there was no video at that tournament :/ which is mad gay, cause it had Mew2King, ADHD, and Atomsk for top 3.
Yeah, I saw the video, combos don't really do much for me, though Melee combos are far more entertaining and more unpredictable than Street Fighter and King of fighter combos, which are much more set in stone.
It also shows that Rachel is better against the cast than Nu is, if you'd read the chart I posted.

In BlazBlue, Nu destroys most of the cast way more than Jin/Ranga/Rachel. I forget who's rank 2 right now, but even if they beat Nu, it's by a tiny amount, and Nu is much better than the rest versus the cast.

Nu is number 2 xD Rachel is number 1.
Rachel has proven a better charecter, and thus moved up from 2 to 1 to surpass Nu, despite having a bad matchup against Nu.