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Project M Social Thread

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Archangel

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Bite is terrible. It deals more damage than it used to, but you'll never land it, because the opponent has no reason to stay in his shield in the first place. Since dashdance camping, L-Canceling, and wavedashing backward are all part of every character's arsenal, Wario has no means of getting close enough to Bite someone, especially since the grab hitbox is pitifully small. Also, even when you land it, unless a platform is in just the right place, it doesn't lead into anything, so it's just making Wario very vulnerable for a potential 13%, while Bowser's gives him a strong KO move or a 20% hit that COMBOS INTO THINGS.
good points. Wario is I think a solid B level character right now. endlag on his moves are silly. Some start ups are also silly. Having to sweetspot his Uair is very silly and a 2 minute fart charge is extremely silly.

Friend of mine who semi-mains Wario was talking with me on some ideas for him.

idea 1. Bite = increased range or possibly the ability to eat projectiles which ultimately charge his fart.

idea 2. take away the need to flap his imaginary wings after he does a fsmash.

Idea 3. Make his Side-B cancel-able (on impact only).

thoughts? I don't know I don't play wario much tbh.
 

Juushichi

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I feel like most of what Reflex would say about this character is right, but yeah. When I play him I just do stuff and hope that people are dumb so I can do other things.
 

Ace55

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I think Waft being as powerful as it is is actually a big reason why the rest of Wario feels so underwhelming. I mean full charge waft rivals rest in power with a huge hitbox, it's basically a 'free' stock waiting to happen and he's going to get a shot at it at least once a match. And if there's one move dair was meant to combo into it's this one. Meanwhile except for his air mobility (which does compensate for a lot) and his gimping game everything else about him is either sub par or plain bad. Recovery, kill potential minus waft, combo potential, shield pressure, range, follow ups out of grab/bite, its all lacking.

My guess is they went a bit overboard when compensating for waft and his air mobility leading to a kinda boring and underwhelming character who's only really viable because of said aerial mobilty.

That said I still co-main the guy, at this point he's probably my 3rd best char and I feel like he can compete.

And I disagree with Reflex about bite, there are tons of situations where you can use it. It's like a tomahawk on steroids. One of his better attributes imo.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I think Waft being as powerful as it is is actually a big reason why the rest of Wario feels so underwhelming. I mean full charge waft rivals rest in power with a huge hitbox, it's basically a 'free' stock waiting to happen and he's going to get a shot at it at least once a match. And if there's one move dair was meant to combo into it's this one. Meanwhile except for his air mobility (which does compensate for a lot) and his gimping game everything else about him is either sub par or plain bad. Recovery, kill potential minus waft, combo potential, shield pressure, range, follow ups out of grab/bite, its all lacking.

My guess is they went a bit overboard when compensating for waft and his air mobility leading to a kinda boring and underwhelming character who's only really viable because of said aerial mobilty.

That said I still co-main the guy, at this point he's probably my 3rd best char and I feel like he can compete.

And I disagree with Reflex about bite, there are tons of situations where you can use it. It's like a tomahawk on steroids. One of his better attributes imo.
Waft feels underwhelming to me, too. Yeah, it's powerful, but it's still not KOing anyone 'til after 50%, which is something that Jigglypuff and Ike always have access to. If I'm not mistaken, it's slightly slower than Brawl Waft, and there's NO super armor, meaning that trades aren't nearly as likely. Also, uncharged Waft is not really killing anyone outright before U-Air or B-Air would, which sucks.

The problem with his aerial mobility (and, consequently, Bite) is that his maximum speed in the air and on the ground is quite low, so he's not outmaneuvering them. Aerial superiority works for Jigglypuff because she has good pokes and an awesome recovery. She can safely harass people without needing them to stay in place. Wario cannot effectively play an aggressive game, and he can't even camp very well, due to his pokes not often winning out.

As far as "tomahawk" goes, empty fastfall -> grab would work better if Wario weren't so cursed slow, and if the grab (Bite, I mean) had any semblance of range, but it doesn't, so it doesn't. His regular grab has nice range, but he isn't fast enough to "trick" people, especially since aerial weaving with him pales in comparison to most characters' dashdance camping. Also, most grabs lead into some useful follow-up; outside of U-Throw on fastfallers, Wario's throws don't lead into anything but mediocre pressure if the opponent DIs properly.
 

hotdogturtle

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Rememberer all those things about Wario from the closed alpha that were "broken" so they had to nerf them before the demo started?

They could always bring them back ;)
 

TheReflexWonder

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Because making Forward-B good would be overcentralizing, but Falco's lasers aren't overcentralizing. :(
 

GHNeko

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Give Wario frame traps on shielding opponents.

huehuehue



Though that would be an interesting niche for him to fill with the use of his meaty moveset
 

TheReflexWonder

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Give Wario something that would make opponents care to do anything but move away from his anything. :/
 

Archangel

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most grabs don't lead into some useful follow-up; outside of U-Throw on fastfallers, Wario's throws don't lead into anything but mediocre pressure if the opponent DIs properly.
ok....What? You seriously don't think the Dthrow is good?

I agree with most everything else though. Wario is fun to use but as people adjust to him he has less option especially against campy projectile characters and against in your face aggro characters and against characters with a significant range advantage....doesn't leave much room on the character list lol.

I don't think Wario sucks. He's just less fun and difficult to win with once people stop getting hit by Side-B spam.
 

DMG

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Thank god he's better than Ike at least. Can't even beat Shiek what a pathetic character.
 

TheReflexWonder

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ok....What? You seriously don't think the Dthrow is good?

I agree with most everything else though. Wario is fun to use but as people adjust to him he has less option especially against campy projectile characters and against in your face aggro characters and against characters with a significant range advantage....doesn't leave much room on the character list lol.

I don't think Wario sucks. He's just less fun and difficult to win with once people stop getting hit by Side-B spam.
Yeah, D-Throw is BAD. Deals 7%, and if you're not a fastfaller, you can DI so that it doesn't force a tech. Wario doesn't get enough frame advantage to threaten fastfallers especially well, either. It requires a hard read to really do anything out of it on fastfallers--You can't reasonably react.

Wario loses to dashdance camping, shorthop aerial pokes, projectile spam...He doesn't really succeed against anyone. Wario blows as a character in 2.1, and I really hope they fix him.
 

OmegaMuffin

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Yeah, D-Throw is BAD. Deals 7%, and if you're not a fastfaller, you can DI so that it doesn't force a tech. Wario doesn't get enough frame advantage to threaten fastfallers especially well, either. It requires a hard read to really do anything out of it on fastfallers--You can't reasonably react.

Wario loses to dashdance camping, shorthop aerial pokes, projectile spam...He doesn't really succeed against anyone. Wario blows as a character in 2.1, and I really hope they fix him.
They? Aren't you part of the BRoom?
 

Archangel

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Yeah, D-Throw is BAD. Deals 7%, and if you're not a fastfaller, you can DI so that it doesn't force a tech. Wario doesn't get enough frame advantage to threaten fastfallers especially well, either. It requires a hard read to really do anything out of it on fastfallers--You can't reasonably react.

Wario loses to dashdance camping, shorthop aerial pokes, projectile spam...He doesn't really succeed against anyone. Wario blows as a character in 2.1, and I really hope they fix him.
well I guess vs non FF you could always Side-B at them...jump when they force out of the tech and hit them?

Aside from that I don't disagree. I think you might be pleading your case a little bit tooooo hard though. You make him sound on par with game&watch.
 

TheReflexWonder

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well I guess vs non FF you could always Side-B at them...jump when they force out of the tech and hit them?

Aside from that I don't disagree. I think you might be pleading your case a little bit tooooo hard though. You make him sound on par with game&watch.
Forward-B is way too linear for it to be considered a reliable attack from that distance. It pretty much loses to any aerial, too (let alone ANY move). They're never forced to tech, so they can L-Cancel a N-Air and be back in neutral position, or they can jump and use their superior aerial attacks/recovery moves/fastfall to get back to neutral position with no real trouble.

He's definitely a bottom-tier character. Once people stop blindly charging at you and running into U-Tilt, you just lose, because you can't reasonably force anything, and individual reads against an opponent not running into your U-Tilt don't do nearly as much for Wario as practically any other character.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I'm informing people about the character as a player considered good with him. Not once did I suggest changes or saying that he needs to be fixed.

Suggest that the game isn't completely balanced and it's in poor taste? Okay--Guess we should only talk about the good characters. Continue talking about how good or bad Ike or Falco is, everyone. I'll keep my input to the Back Room, since I've apparently lost the privilege of discussing the merits of the character I play, just because there's misinformation to correct in the current release of the game.
 

DMG

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Ike's not good he's worse than Wario






*I can't keep it up it's too ridiculous*

Since I'm not PMBR, I can talk about him freely right? Lemme just copy paste most of what Reflex has said or would have said if he had that freedom. I forgot you guys were bound by Omerta.
 

iLink

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I think wario's dthrow is pretty bad

but I don't think he's bottom tier in the demo

*shrugs*
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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Anyone else find it really funky that you have to di lucario's up throw behind him? Just look at the animation of the throw it looks like he is tossing you forward then up, also it doesnt help that his up throw is really fast. Also is it a brawl thing that the weight of the character doesn't change the speed of the throw?

:phone:
 

iLink

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A character's weight does change the speed of the throw, even in brawl.

IC would be even stupider if that wasn't the case.
 

NeoZ

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The fortunate thing about Wario in my eyes is that he does seem to have a general theme, and that's meaty attacks. Side B, nair, fair, bair, dair, and standard B are all meaty, which gives him a bit of leniency when timing attacks. The BKB, angle, and timing for a lot of them are just kind of whack.
I know this is a bit late, but what do you mean by meaty?
 

UltiMario

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I remember (and actually still have) some old as **** builds before Wario's Side B was toned down a ton. The move was ****ing ridiculous.

He needs that Side-B back. =p
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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B/c of his shorter upb is it possible tlink has a worse mu vs jiggs then ylink had? (I am not a great tink nor do i know jiggs players to test it out on so i dont know the answer)

:phone:
 

TheReflexWonder

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B/c of his shorter upb is it possible tlink has a worse mu vs jiggs then ylink had? (I am not a great tink nor do i know jiggs players to test it out on so i dont know the answer)

:phone:
Hard to say, given that the power of his Up-B would be much riskier for Jigglypuff to run into. That might make up for it.
 

Rat

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I liked all of the combo names.

Spin, spin, spinspin, spin, spin.
Thanks spoon. Also playing against your snake made me want to pick him up - fits pretty well since I got lots of UpB practice with Samus.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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Hard to say, given that the power of his Up-B would be much riskier for Jigglypuff to run into. That might make up for it.
Thats the argument i made with a friend when i brought this up to him yesterday, but he took the stance the up b would not deter jiggs that much nor would the use of up b as a kill move help that much in the mu to make up for the recovery you lose from ylink.

Its weird to think that ylink might have a better mu then tlink

:phone:
 

iLink

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Well the thing that made ylink good against jigglypuff was how he could control space with his projectiles vs jigglypuff. The projectiles now deal a pretty hefty amount of damage and he has a new finisher (upb) to use against her. If anything, I think the MU got better for toonlink. His recovery wasn't a very big part of the MU in melee.
 

metroid1117

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Well the thing that made ylink good against jigglypuff was how he could control space with his projectiles vs jigglypuff. The projectiles now deal a pretty hefty amount of damage and he has a new finisher (upb) to use against her. If anything, I think the MU got better for toonlink. His recovery wasn't a very big part of the MU in melee.
This, not to mention the new spacing tricks with AGT bombs and B-reverse boomerangs.

EDIT: Speaking of B-reversing, I wonder when run-away B-reverse Raptor Boost will become a common thing for Falcon:M.
 

JCaesar

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When I fool around with Ganon I use that to tech chase. It's 4 extra frames to change your direction after you commit to the side-B.
 

KingBlaze777

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@N.A.G.A.C.E.
That MU is quite better for Tink now with his UpB killer, FSmash and USmash were added to his reliable kill moves vs Jiggz, meanwhile YLink had a tougher time killing Jiggz because most of his kill moves (such as Dair and Uair) could be easily avoided and punished by her. This is one of the few MU's that I use Tink for, the others being DK, Ike, D3 and Sonic.

@metroid1117

I think that B-reversed Raptor Boost is just too situational for it to be a common thing among Falcon mains in P;M, but I only use Falcon for Lulz so I may be underestimating its potential
 
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