Buffer rolls, buffer spot dodges, and get up attacks.how did melee buffer work then? my understanding of it was that out of hitstun gave buffer, but nothing else.
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Buffer rolls, buffer spot dodges, and get up attacks.how did melee buffer work then? my understanding of it was that out of hitstun gave buffer, but nothing else.
thats cuz they never played my boy Nando... up and coming best falcon look him up lolThis. I put A LOT of ****ing time into into my techskill. I don't want some guy who put no time into the game be able to do the same stuff as me without even having to try hard. Plus whats the point of using 0 buffer when you could use a high buffer and make less mistakes? I have a EXTREME amount of techskill BTW, like, anything Shiz can do I can. I know thats hard to believe but I'm MADDDD serious. Do yall know GOTM? He said I was one of the most technical Falcons/Falcos he's ever seen and 100% sure he's played Sca.r, Hax$, Eggm, Cactus, and Jman (and possibly Chops).
You make a very good point at explaining why a universal 0 buffer might not be good because of the clunkiness it might cause in certain situations. Are you arguing against a universal non adjustable buffer for tourney play?Players cannot, though, be expected to know how long the hitstun from each specific attack will last, so that they know when to attempt to wobble/attack. Removing buffer in these circumstances serves to make the game more clunky and promote trying to mash out of combos instead of timing them.
It's alright talking about how buffer reduces the tech skill requirement of certain feats, but many people neglect to consider its other implications on making the game play smoothly.
I agree with this and all the points DS made. I also agree with what kix said about there should be a standard buffer to have a level playing field for all the players.I agree that conditional buffer would be best. I just think that even if that turns out to be impossible, 1 or 0 frame buffer should be standard (though adjustable buffer should be left in for practicing purposes).
This debate can wait till later though, since after all nobody is really suggesting that the adjustable buffer system be removed entirely are they?
Don't blame the buffer when in this situation, it was all your fault.In my experience, even the conditional buffering in Melee has cause me to nair off the stage to death more times than it's helped me, it's not something that makes the game easier...at all really...it's just a matter of personal preference. .
Except at the level of play that actually matters, buffers of 1-2 have a clear advantage over the others as they allow you to be consistently frame perfect on things that are bufferable but with little or none of the downsides. If there's an issue with buffering making things a bit too 'easy' the buffers of 1 or 2 will be the ones to blame, since it doesn't really matter if with the help of higher buffer FoxSephirothCloud12 has an easier time learning to waveshine or Marf9000 can now consistently spam his double f-airs like a moron since they both suck anyway.-That's not a good thing if it makes execution of the same techniques easier because then the lower buffer settings with the tightness is just for ballsiness and preference but is blatant disadvantage.
My point is that with buffer choice the lower end buffer is more of a disadvantage in any possible playstyle even if you like the feel better.
Interesting. Has anyone tried to see if the 1 liner buffer code set to 0 removes any buffering from histun?Except at the level of play that actually matters, buffers of 1-2 have a clear advantage over the others as they allow you to be consistently frame perfect on things that are bufferable but with little or none of the downsides. If there's an issue with buffering making things a bit too 'easy' the buffers of 1 or 2 will be the ones to blame, since it doesn't really matter if with the help of higher buffer FoxSephirothCloud12 has an easier time learing to waveshine or Marf9000 can now consistently spam his double f-airs like a moron since they both suck anyway.
So I'm not sure I get how that low buffer somehow makes if you did the same input with the higher buffer worse. Wouldn't it come out just the same?Except at the level of play that actually matters, buffers of 1-2 have a clear advantage over the others as they allow you to be consistently frame perfect on things that are bufferable but with little or none of the downsides. If there's an issue with buffering making things a bit too 'easy' the buffers of 1 or 2 will be the ones to blame, since it doesn't really matter if with the help of higher buffer FoxSephirothCloud12 has an easier time learning to waveshine or Marf9000 can now consistently spam his double f-airs like a moron since they both suck anyway.
If you're pressing stuff when you're not supposed to. If it's for a follow up that you would generally input anyway, you just get it easier, especially if it's got strict timing. I don't see how it really carries over useless inputs, but I could be wrong because 5 frames is higher than I'm thinking about. I'm open to being wrong about this, but I think some main points will stick, anyway.Correct me if I'm wrong, but having a 5 frame buffer means you lose 5 frames to your reaction to input time as well?
Well this brings up a good point against higher buffer. You can buffered punishes/etc!Interesting. Has anyone tried to see if the 1 liner buffer code set to 0 removes any buffering from histun?
No. Having a 5 frame buffer means that you can input an action up to 5 frames early and it will be executed as soon as possible.Correct me if I'm wrong, but having a 5 frame buffer means you lose 5 frames to your reaction to input time as well?
Actually, I think Shanus is hoping that the one line buffer code does NOT remove buffering during hitstun. I'm not sure exactly what that would suggest (possibly that he'd be able to isolate buffering during hitstun and write a separate code for it?)Well this brings up a good point against higher buffer. You can buffered punishes/etc!
coolstoryshanus......just quit slackingIt's easy to agree on codes that would be best, but with most coders out of play, we are largely limited to whats in fighter.pac to alter; so don't get your hopes up there
w/ Buffer - Fox will buffer an Up Smash for the kill within his buffer window which will guarantee an Up Smash on the first available frame Fox can act on.Fox and Ness are both in killing range. Fox lands a dair on Ness.
Geno ur argument makes no sense to me. I don't want to be rewarded with a free up-smash just because i landed a dair with fox.....i want to be rewarded because i timed it correctly and L-canceled my dair. If i happened to miss the L-cancel then the other player should have the chance to shield/shield grab me if he reacts quick enough. That is why many of us think of buffer as "easy mode" when it come to Melee mechanics. Ur right about one thing tho, buffer Does decrease the gap between low and high level players, which is a big no-no for competetive gaming.The argument is that if Fox could pull off a dair on Ness then Fox deserves the kill; buffer insures that. Whatever Fox did to nail that dair... he deserves all the rewards that come with it which means an Up Smash for the kill.
I don't expect scrubs to land dair on skilled players. <------- lolwtf?
Well, power shield holding will be removed, but....-----------------
Here's a situation:
w/ Buffer - Fox will buffer an Up Smash for the kill within his buffer window which will guarantee an Up Smash on the first available frame Fox can act on.
w/o Buffer - Fox will have a 3 frame window after the dair finishes... which he can input an Up Smash for the kill. If he fails to input it within those 3 frames Ness will get his shield up since holding shield will put it up on the first available frame. This will result in a powershield to back throw for the kill.
I don't agree with this. I'm sure that there are others that don't agree with this.The argument is that if Fox could pull off a dair on Ness then Fox deserves the kill; buffer insures that. Whatever Fox did to nail that dair... he deserves all the rewards that come with it which means an Up Smash for the kill. I don't expect scrubs to land dair on skilled players.
So skill should not come into play when following through after successfully making an opening?This is where skill comes into play which involves reading your opponents, finding openings in moves, and maintaining stage control.
But technical skill is still SKILL and should be rewarded. It's a show of dedication and practice. Slowly becoming more precise also serves to make the mental game itself more interesting, as you are gaining more options as you practice. Your diligence is rewarded by having options you did not have before, allowing you to expand on your mental game. That's part of what makes fighting games so interesting in the first place.Tech skill is only a small part of what makes a great player. In theory if everyone had perfect tech skill then the only thing separating the players is their overall ability in outplaying the other player. Buffering only lessens the impact that technical skill made on determining great players.
Okay, if you had a buffer window with Melee-Fox he'd probably slaughter more than he already does. But this isn't Melee... this is a Brawl mod that emulates Melee. Obviously the frame data isn't the same so Fox will NOT dominate just because he has buffering. It's not like you can balance Melee... but you can balance P: M so buffering can be taken into account.
This is an argument that is supposed to be made AFTER the game is completely released. Right now we are discussing which one of these paths might make the game more fun long term.Just let everyone use the buffer settings they want, Play your game and let everyone play theirs. I mean, if they can use it, so can you, so there's no real advantage for any player.
Are you a game developer or a troll? I can't tell.This is the dumbest conversation I have ever seen.
People who have no access to the game are theory crafting rules and situations. Then other people who have no access to the game are arguing with them. Then people who are making the game are telling them none of this conversation is worth it, but they ignore them or tell them they are wrong.
Project M = Closed Experimental Beta
All your theory crafting is completely useless, and you should probably talk about something that actually matters.
Go ahead and tell me the last time buffer decided a match in a tournament. You can't because you have no idea and are just guessing.
:bandit:
Blargh, kk.I can tell you as a developer of the project, there is no agreement on buffer yet at this time. However, due to the codes available, we will most likely keep the handicap=buffer option at least currently and see where we go later on.
Some of the diligence it takes to unlock said options could just come naturally within minutes to one person and seem impossible to another, regardless of previous practice. Some might not even need to practice it because their "mental game" just doesn't require the need for it.But technical skill is still SKILL and should be rewarded. It's a show of dedication and practice. Slowly becoming more precise also serves to make the mental game itself more interesting, as you are gaining more options as you practice. Your diligence is rewarded by having options you did not have before, allowing you to expand on your mental game. That's part of what makes fighting games so interesting in the first place.
I could never get down Slayer in GGXXAC. Still the point is that the expectation for execution is the same regardless of how people are naturally better - or worse.Some of the diligence it takes to unlock said options could just come naturally within minutes to one person and seem impossible to another, regardless of previous practice. Some might not even need to practice it because their "mental game" just doesn't require the need for it.
Pretty much any source of precision is just gone with a higher buffer. What are you really timing at all? You dial it and hang on for the ride! So therefore you have to take a disadvantage just to have the game feel tighter. As I said - whatever value is lowest and least clunky with lead to a tighter gameplay experience.Execution is a part of any game, but the amount of "effort" put forth will always have marginal variances from player to player. Its really not fair to say you're leveling the playing field by setting universal buffer, not only for a variety of other factors but because with customizable buffer the only one stopping yourself from trying a higher buffer is you.
So the player get to decide how much they want a disadvantage at the cost of the tightness of gameplay?Your options come from acknowledging your lack of them, and in other cases your opponents lack of them. How much buffer and stricter timing equates into this is up to the Project M staff, but in real play the players are the ones who get to decide how much they want to rely on their own ability to handle said factors.
Well it realistically does, as far as expectations. You don't try to factor in people's physically or mental states when on their own these buffers have an objective advantage. Since lower buffer would probably feel more like Melee, again, that's probably what you'd want to shoot for.I'm not against either, but trying to say that it levels the playing field or that one is better then the other is silly. P:M wants a technical direction so I'd tell them that universal is the way to go, but its really all preference and If it were up to me I'd leave it customizable.