iirc the timing for popo bthrow to nana regrab is virtually the same for all characters and is in fact very easy. that's half of the chain grab done for you. the other half? watch nana closely.
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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
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Skler
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure Chu Dat and KDJ have done that.
Nope. Definately not KDJ, and ChuDat, while he came close a few times back in 2005, never really had his Pichu beat anyone of similar talent.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
chu played kdj with his pikachu and lost...then again this is nearly highest level of play, if chu vsed any marths that were below that rank, i wouldn't be surprised if chu consistently wins sets
Yeah, but can that statement stay true even if the Snake isn't competent? That or a spam happy MK? You can have all the mindgames in the world, but it doesn't stop moves from being overpowered, just increases your chance of not getting hit by them. But when it does...
Aesir
Smash Master
Are you trying to imply that brawl is more balanced? Because if you are there's a flaw in your reasoning.
Melee has had 5+ years of development.
Brawl has had 4 months.
Needless to say Brawl is going to appear more balanced in the beginning just like melee appeared more balanced in the beginning.
metalmonstar
Smash Lord
- Joined
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Captain Falcon and Gannon don't have the lowest tournament ranking though and they are considered the worst in the game. Also Sliq's gannon is just sick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPIk2cz8fAE
Just because you play a top tier character doesn't mean you win.
Anyway I am working on a little piece about Melee edgeguarding vs. Brawl edgeguarding. Since a lot of people like to state that brawl has none.
So what are the arguements against Brawls competitive value. Lack of skill? Aren't good players still winning consistently?
Randomness? Tripping only occurs at a small percentage. I will admit it is annoying but I don't find it to be as game breaking as it is made out to be.
Lack of combos? Don't we have a sticky of all of the true combos? At high levels of melee play good players could break out of a combo at 3 or 4 hits sure there was potential for more but that required mistakes on your opponents part. Seems somewhat similiar to brawl to me. Maybe a little less than what melee had to offer but they are still there.
Lack of ATs? Don't we have a sticky for that also? No groundbreaking ATs? It is going to take a while before practical applications can be found it doesn't help that 90% of the community screams useless when something new is found. I am starting to wonder if anyone thinks that the basic smash could be competitive. I like to think it would be, but it seems I am a minority in this.
Camping is too good? Doesn't seem to detract from competitive value to me. What if offense was too good would we still have this conversation? It just seems to me that discovering dominant tactics is how a game progresses. You either get better at a tactic or you learn to overcome it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPIk2cz8fAE
Just because you play a top tier character doesn't mean you win.
Anyway I am working on a little piece about Melee edgeguarding vs. Brawl edgeguarding. Since a lot of people like to state that brawl has none.
So what are the arguements against Brawls competitive value. Lack of skill? Aren't good players still winning consistently?
Randomness? Tripping only occurs at a small percentage. I will admit it is annoying but I don't find it to be as game breaking as it is made out to be.
Lack of combos? Don't we have a sticky of all of the true combos? At high levels of melee play good players could break out of a combo at 3 or 4 hits sure there was potential for more but that required mistakes on your opponents part. Seems somewhat similiar to brawl to me. Maybe a little less than what melee had to offer but they are still there.
Lack of ATs? Don't we have a sticky for that also? No groundbreaking ATs? It is going to take a while before practical applications can be found it doesn't help that 90% of the community screams useless when something new is found. I am starting to wonder if anyone thinks that the basic smash could be competitive. I like to think it would be, but it seems I am a minority in this.
Camping is too good? Doesn't seem to detract from competitive value to me. What if offense was too good would we still have this conversation? It just seems to me that discovering dominant tactics is how a game progresses. You either get better at a tactic or you learn to overcome it.
Umm...Futile (Wario) beating DSF (Snake)
No, I'm implying that there are essentially obsolete characters in both games, its a fighting game, fighting games have tier lists, those toward the bottom of the tier list essentially don't stand a chance, thats just the way things are, it was true in Melee and is true in Brawl. The original poster made it sound as if every character was viable in Melee but only a select few are viable in Brawl, which simply isn't true.
How about instead of throwing out the names of people I don't give two ****s about, you link me to a video. If there wasn't a video, tell me what Wario did. If you can't do that, tell me where those players talk about their game so that I can find out. IF you can't do anything like that, then what's the point in bringing it up?
Yeah, I give the game a lot of **** for being unbalanced, but even I can beat Snakes and MKs as Pit. You know how? I sit on the edge and fire arrows until they are at a reasonable percent, then I go in for the kill. It's boring, not fun, but it works. I can only imagine that that entire match for DSF was Wario hit and running with Fairs or whatever spammable moves wario uses now.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Dair.
Skler
Smash Master
I said a competent player, not somebody of KDJ/Chu's level. Both KDJ and Chu can both beat competent marth players with their pichu, hell they can probably beat marth players who are considered good with pichu. I don't care how good the other player is if they pick ganon in Brawl because they will not beat a competent Snake.
Chu obviously doesn't play against players of his level with pichu in serious matches, but he can tool on more then half the (competitive) smashers in the world with pichu. I want to see a pro in brawl pick up ganon and beat a competent snake.
Every character isn't viable in Melee unless you're a better player (how much better you need to be depends on the character and the opponents knowledge of the matcuhp), every character in brawl isn't viable even if you're amazing and the other person is just good. Ganon vs Snake is just one example, the same can be said for plenty of other garbage tier characters against snake and mk.
Short version: In melee skill could overcome bad matchups even if the other player was good, in Brawl as long as your opponent is good you can't pick certain characters or you will lose. Your own skill won't matter as long as your opponent is at a certain level, you'll lose because you have no options that aren't countered easily.
Chu obviously doesn't play against players of his level with pichu in serious matches, but he can tool on more then half the (competitive) smashers in the world with pichu. I want to see a pro in brawl pick up ganon and beat a competent snake.
Every character isn't viable in Melee unless you're a better player (how much better you need to be depends on the character and the opponents knowledge of the matcuhp), every character in brawl isn't viable even if you're amazing and the other person is just good. Ganon vs Snake is just one example, the same can be said for plenty of other garbage tier characters against snake and mk.
Short version: In melee skill could overcome bad matchups even if the other player was good, in Brawl as long as your opponent is good you can't pick certain characters or you will lose. Your own skill won't matter as long as your opponent is at a certain level, you'll lose because you have no options that aren't countered easily.
Rex+
Smash Ace
Some people don't seem to realize how overpowered some characters are in plenty of fighting games.
In Melee, there are superpowers, but possible to overcome with effort.
Generally, top-tier characters dominate the competitive scene, but looking closely anyone can point out a select few who enter tournaments with low-tiers and preform considerably well with them. Not topple every tourney they enter, but place well in them. In this case, you have low-tier characters able to take on higher ones, depending on the players controlling them and their knowledge of their own character as well as who they're facing against.
Because of this, I believe that if you dedicate time to a low-tier character, you can do well in competitive scenes in Melee.
However, Skler has taken the words right out of my mouth in his post for my argument on Brawl's worth
This is why it is near impossible challenging Snake and MK with characters nobody uses, and that is why, as I believe, Melee has more competitive flexibility than Brawl. More characters means nothing if you have a handful that dominate everything else.
In Melee, there are superpowers, but possible to overcome with effort.
Generally, top-tier characters dominate the competitive scene, but looking closely anyone can point out a select few who enter tournaments with low-tiers and preform considerably well with them. Not topple every tourney they enter, but place well in them. In this case, you have low-tier characters able to take on higher ones, depending on the players controlling them and their knowledge of their own character as well as who they're facing against.
Because of this, I believe that if you dedicate time to a low-tier character, you can do well in competitive scenes in Melee.
However, Skler has taken the words right out of my mouth in his post for my argument on Brawl's worth
This is why it is near impossible challenging Snake and MK with characters nobody uses, and that is why, as I believe, Melee has more competitive flexibility than Brawl. More characters means nothing if you have a handful that dominate everything else.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
The sad thing is that there are too many fools who don't understand this.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
^^^^^
LOLOLOLOLOL- Diddy IMO ***** Meta because of his peels. it annoys very character including snake and meta knight. Now i argee with AZ wario beating snake is nice, but wario is pretty good so its not huge. look on AiB a lot of tournaments have a range of decent and not good characters placing 1,2,3,4,5,7,ect there getting the top or close to it.
LOLOLOLOLOL- Diddy IMO ***** Meta because of his peels. it annoys very character including snake and meta knight. Now i argee with AZ wario beating snake is nice, but wario is pretty good so its not huge. look on AiB a lot of tournaments have a range of decent and not good characters placing 1,2,3,4,5,7,ect there getting the top or close to it.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
If I'm not mistaken (what m2k told me when we talked bout this), Futile beat DSF in tourney once, and has lost to him every other time.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Yoshi ***** Wario.
Rex+
Smash Ace
Well, my Diddy game doesn't focus solely on tossing bananas at an MK. I only do that when they start spamming the tornado.
I've had plenty of people compliment me in conversations after matches over how I'm still scary without bananas. Being able to control the match with and without the bananas matters. This Wolf I played earlier today was chewing right through my bananas strategy, so I had to come up with some new approaches on the spot and I won the match as a result.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
ok, but what im trying to say is yeah so far most of the tournies in brawl have DDD's, MK's, and snakes getting the top but, you guys were saying its different for melee. c'mon dont give me that ****. Marths, foxes and shieks ***** melee
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
ok if you wanna play like that lemme go on AiB and tell you to check all the results when a snake/mk didnt get first, you'll be looking for a long *** time
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Rex+
Smash Ace
This is what I mean. Mid tier owing the hell out of top tier.
Can't do this too often in Brawl, no.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
Terribate North Jesrsey Tourny- Inui(marth) got first of 50
Montage Presents: No Nonsense 2.0
M2K(DDD) 1st
Clask of the Titans 3
Inui(Marth) got 4th of 30
One Brawl to back them all up! 5
RoK the Reaper(ike) gets 1st out of 36(This tournament featurred one player as each character that was decided by pools. It used all 35 characters and random)
Montage Presents: No Nonsense 2.0
M2K(DDD) 1st
Clask of the Titans 3
Inui(Marth) got 4th of 30
One Brawl to back them all up! 5
RoK the Reaper(ike) gets 1st out of 36(This tournament featurred one player as each character that was decided by pools. It used all 35 characters and random)
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Who was that fruit that won Pound 3 again?UCLA V Results.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Please don't use online tournaments as any kind of evidence. RoK the Reaper is an Ike player who inexplicably hits people with charged Ike fsmashes.
Wait, let him keep doing it. Let him prove how random online tournaments with no money on the line prove that the game is balanced.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
i cant use links i have to use wii for internet no comp, it broke.
Eh, XD sorry about that i thought since all charaters were involved i could use it but.
Dazwa(ZSS) 4th of 87 at X.E.S.T.I.C.L.E
Pink Reaper: STFU, ok Online tournaments an be legit since all characters were involved and it was East Coast only so shut up
Eh, XD sorry about that i thought since all charaters were involved i could use it but.
Dazwa(ZSS) 4th of 87 at X.E.S.T.I.C.L.E
Pink Reaper: STFU, ok Online tournaments an be legit since all characters were involved and it was East Coast only so shut up
how could it be East Coast only? Rok's from Texas >_>
And no, Online tournaments cannot be legit.
And no, Online tournaments cannot be legit.
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
uh M2K, Cort, PC Chris DDD and Snakes, 4th is still very good for a tournament with 87 attendes
Lovage 805
Smash Champion
wait wait, is someone SERIOUSLY arguing that online=skill
ROFL wow smashboards is awesome
ROFL wow smashboards is awesome
TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
Man this thread is huge... I guess I'll throw down. You guys aren't thinking with your heads at all! And you're playing too much Marth!
Brawl is strongly competitive, you guys just are doing it wrong. One thing that Brawl has that Melee did not is character and style diversity. In Melee, characters had generally archetypal moves, and all moves had set knockbacks and trajectories based on percentage, and due to wavedashing and fast dash speed, horizontal hit moves were useful at low percents to combo into a grab, which with almost every character was pretty devastating, and juggles on heavy or fastfalling characters were ridiculous as well. Recoveries were easily interruptible, with the exception of forward-diagonal high priority up-Bs, like Mario and Marth, the teleports of the Pokemon and the floating back forever of Peach and Jiggly and Samus. The idea is to combo and edgeguard, combo and edgeguard repeatedly.
Brawl right now is in a development stage where we are learning about the strength of the diversity of the cast. Snake is all about stage control and damage building over time. Diddy is about being quick and using bananas and pokes to trick your opponent and build damage. ROB forces you to play aggressive. Lucas is a strong anti-projectile counter with good in-close combos and mixups, while DeDeDe is a versatile fatty with a neat projectile and plenty of strong moves and plenty of fast moves, and he can trap people into getting hit with powerful attacks, or getting gimped. Falco is a shut-down character with his spike and chaingrab game and powerful spacing tools. Who is the best character? They're all a piece of the puzzle.
I think you're breaking down the game too much and ignoring important aspects that are going to shape it: Glide Tossing setups, Chain-grabbing, counter-camping, catch and release, and spiking setups. This game is NOT played with just Marth and MetaKnight, this game isn't played just in close or at a distance, and this game isn't just about shield countering. As much as I respect Cactuar, I don't think he has every angle of this game covered; and didn't you do all that stuff the same in Melee anyways?
Now, to address the argument that this game isn't competitive because of the lack of ability to dominate. First of all, several characters do dominate people that don't intimately know the counters; Snake, Metaknight and Falco in particular. Instant metagame; now DeDeDe, ROB, and DK are good because they can more easily deal! And Lucas is an OK third! (lol) Lets see where it goes before we judge. You guys are expecting so much from brawl in so little time.
Brawl is strongly competitive, you guys just are doing it wrong. One thing that Brawl has that Melee did not is character and style diversity. In Melee, characters had generally archetypal moves, and all moves had set knockbacks and trajectories based on percentage, and due to wavedashing and fast dash speed, horizontal hit moves were useful at low percents to combo into a grab, which with almost every character was pretty devastating, and juggles on heavy or fastfalling characters were ridiculous as well. Recoveries were easily interruptible, with the exception of forward-diagonal high priority up-Bs, like Mario and Marth, the teleports of the Pokemon and the floating back forever of Peach and Jiggly and Samus. The idea is to combo and edgeguard, combo and edgeguard repeatedly.
Brawl right now is in a development stage where we are learning about the strength of the diversity of the cast. Snake is all about stage control and damage building over time. Diddy is about being quick and using bananas and pokes to trick your opponent and build damage. ROB forces you to play aggressive. Lucas is a strong anti-projectile counter with good in-close combos and mixups, while DeDeDe is a versatile fatty with a neat projectile and plenty of strong moves and plenty of fast moves, and he can trap people into getting hit with powerful attacks, or getting gimped. Falco is a shut-down character with his spike and chaingrab game and powerful spacing tools. Who is the best character? They're all a piece of the puzzle.
I think you're breaking down the game too much and ignoring important aspects that are going to shape it: Glide Tossing setups, Chain-grabbing, counter-camping, catch and release, and spiking setups. This game is NOT played with just Marth and MetaKnight, this game isn't played just in close or at a distance, and this game isn't just about shield countering. As much as I respect Cactuar, I don't think he has every angle of this game covered; and didn't you do all that stuff the same in Melee anyways?
Now, to address the argument that this game isn't competitive because of the lack of ability to dominate. First of all, several characters do dominate people that don't intimately know the counters; Snake, Metaknight and Falco in particular. Instant metagame; now DeDeDe, ROB, and DK are good because they can more easily deal! And Lucas is an OK third! (lol) Lets see where it goes before we judge. You guys are expecting so much from brawl in so little time.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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You say Marth alot.
IT'S ALL ABOUT DAT SNAKE SON!!!!!
IT'S ALL ABOUT DAT SNAKE SON!!!!!
kamekasu
Smash Ace
You know what I've noticed? People have stopped arguing with you now that they notice your name is purple.
Scar
#HarveyDent
A player's inability to dominate. The game forces matches to be close as best it can. This hinders us from using matches as a test of skill.
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