Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[SamuraiPanda]

I noticed that people don't argue with moderators. Like if you complain about their thoughts or opinion, you will get banned or something.

That only applies to you, corey.

 

[Zankoku]

That only applies to you, corey.

I'd argue against that, but that'd be sillier than me arguing for Brawl's case when everyone knows my stance on it already.

 

[Corigames]

You mean the banning part or the not complaining part? I'm fairly certain that everyone would agree that I am outspoken about what I say, regardless of race, sex, status, age, etc. If you are saying that only I get banned from such things >_>

I loath you.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Wtf you two, don't you ever sleep?

 

[Corigames]

Yes... at the worst time. I usually fall asleep about 5 am AZ time. Then I wake up for class at 10 o clock on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. The other days, I don't have to wake up for a looong time. So that's when I sleep. Tuesdays and Thursdays during the day. The rest of the week I'm up.

However, are you not awake right now?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im a few hours behind your am I not? Its not as late for me

 

[yoshi_fan]

What's the meaning of a purple name btw?

Anyway, i think that the major problem is brawl is that it dosn't have ANYTHING that rewards the skill. I mean, the gae is good because it have more mindgames... but is ALL about mindgames

 

[KosukeKGA]

What's the meaning of a purple name btw?

Anyway, i think that the major problem is brawl is that it dosn't have ANYTHING that rewards the skill. I mean, the gae is good because it have more mindgames... but is ALL about mindgames

...I'll let you off because you're a Yoshi fan.

The purple name means that member is a Smash Backroomer.

 

[Corigames]

Wtf you two, don't you ever sleep?

I want you to know... that picture is my wallpaper... even before you posted it.

 

[yoshi_fan]

...I'll let you off because you're a Yoshi fan.

The purple name means that member is a Smash Backroomer.

I refer to the people in purple without the Grimmer. The smash elitist i mean.

 

[DeftFunk]

In case anyone cares, and I doubt anyone does, (I just don't like unfinished business)

auto cancelling is nowhere near as useful as l-cancelling, chainthrows are much easier now and don't require reading DI, CC is out, dash cancelling is out, DD is out, JC is out, meteor cancelling is out, moonwalking is out, SHFF isn't an advanced tech, teching and wall jumping are in, actually i'm gonna stop because you don't even know what the techs you're naming are

well it seems like I mistook these for something else. Similar techniques exist but are generally more limited. I'd like to point out that crouching no longer reduces stun but it still reduces knockback. And you can gain the same effects of JC just with different methods.

Also, there seems to be at least a halfway decent amount of inescapable combos in the sticky thread and I'm certain there's more to come. What? Metagame is evolving?

A player's inability to dominate. The game forces matches to be close as best it can. This hinders us from using matches as a test of skill.

So, what your saying is Melee gives number grades for skill (i.e. 0-100) for skill while Brawl gives letter grades (A-F)? I realized that before, but I just thought of this awesome analogy. Anywayz, in which case Melee would be a more accurate test. Perhaps Brawl makes up for that in more fun, Don't wager high stakes on it. Don't get me wrong, formidable competition is fun, I know. Just personally think brawl is more fun as an overall game. I'll still compete in it and I'll compete in Melee as well (if some more tournies would happen in this blasted area).

btw, just saw Get Smart. It was good. Quite funny.

 

[Corigames]

Also, there seems to be at least a halfway decent amount of inescapable combos in the sticky thread and I'm certain there's more to come. What? Metagame is evolving?

Wow, so that means when you get an inescapable combo, or as they are called in Brawl, Chain Grabs, that makes the meta evolve?

I think you meant to say, "DE-evolving" >_>

 

[Pink Reaper]

I refer to the people in purple without the Grimmer. The smash elitist i mean.

Thats a Smash Back Room Member. There's a difference between "The Back Room" and "The Smash Back Room." The Smash Back Room is exclusive to only those with a huge amount of Smash knowledge and experience. It comes with the purple name and the title "Smash Elitest" The Backroom is basically just an extension of the Pool Room, its just sort of just an exclusive place to hang out. Nothing important happens there. It comes with a Green name and a Grimer icon.

Also its "Devolving" Corey.

 

[Corigames]

There was no red squiggly line beneath what I wrote, it is not incorrect.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

There was no red squiggly line beneath what I wrote, it is not incorrect.

Don't rely on Firefox to fix your typos, nub.

No johns. It is "devolving."

As for the matter at hand, well...

I dunno.

I <3 ya, Corey.

Smooth Criminal

 

[-Wolfy-]

Corey probably just did it for emphasis. No harm done.

And auto canceling is a farcry from l-canceling.
It's not even all that technical. There are no extra inputs (not to say the one input for l-canceling makes it all that complicated).

 

[Clai]

You know, I just saw Sliq's most recent Youtube match, and he really, really likes spamming those Dair's. And yet he still won against a campy, lasering, chaingrabbing Falco. I don't know Sliq's style, but if he could use that move so much and still come out with a victory against a proposed high-tier character, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ganon comes and gives a shocker to the Brawl tournament scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfLZlBpGTcQ [The match I'm referring to]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr_U0SXkqc8 [For everyone who asked for Futile's Wario beating DSF's Snake, although DSF has now changed to playing as Dedede when playing Futile because Dedede ***** Wario. For those who say counter picks don't matter because Snake and MK **** everyone, HA!]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LN4KBdN988 [To back up my previous statement]

 

[Brookman]

This just in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QA72-MVUSg

Case closed.

 

[Supercakes]

Brawl's metagame devolved when it got released.

 

[Reaver197]

This just in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QA72-MVUSg

Case closed.

Brawl's evolving metagame doesn't seem to be revealing anything that Brawl proponents are hoping for.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Now if only Bowser's pummel wasn't slow as hell...

 

[Endless Nightmares]

And auto canceling is a farcry from l-canceling.
It's not even all that technical. There are no extra inputs (not to say the one input for l-canceling makes it all that complicated).

But auto canceling is just as useful as L-canceling was. It's not that much different, it's another relatively simple way to perform aerials with less landing lag (in this case none)

 

[-Wolfy-]

Oh, good! So it reduces the lag on every aerial?

 

[Scar]

But auto canceling is just as useful as L-canceling was. It's not that much different, it's another relatively simple way to perform aerials with less landing lag (in this case none)

The reason why l-canceling is useful is because it allows players to use aerial moves at ground level. Auto-canceling does not allow us to do this, it's nowhere near as universally applicable as l-canceling was.

 

[Vro]

Auto canceling is also limited to certain moves. Each character only has a handful of aerials that are safe to use, limiting variety. I can no longer tech chase with knee because it's too slow. I can't choose to short hop or full jump fast fall either. My aerials become limited and predictable.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Brookman already owned Brawl.

This thread has served its purpose with the correct winner standing on top.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

The reason why autocanceling is useful is because it allows players to:

• Perform aerials quickly near ground level. It's not as great as performing aerials AT ground level, but still extremely useful.
• Cut off a portion of an aerial's animation. Let's say Ganon's dair animation is 20 frames, but it can be autocanceled after 14 frames.
• Land with ZERO lag
• Combining the previous two points, autocanceling removes ALL landing lag and also removes a portion of the aerial's animation. Does this not make it as useful as L-canceling?
• All aerials can be autocanceled. But not all autocancels are created equal. Some autocancels are much more useful than others. Same with L-canceling. Sure you could L-cancel Link's dair, but it wasn't really a good idea to SHFFL it on someone's head.

@Vro: If you short hop knee you can autocancel it.

 

[pockyD]

unbelievable that this thread is still going

"autocanceling" isn't canceling anything at all

if, say, as metaknight, i use all my jumps, then do a nair at the peak, i have autocanceled it! hurray!

"autocanceling" is a fancy way of saying that you are forced to do all aerials that have a measurable amount of landing lag only in certain positions or timings (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is in no way similar to l-cancel)

 

[Endless Nightmares]

unbelievable that this thread is still going

"autocanceling" isn't canceling anything at all

if, say, as metaknight, i use all my jumps, then do a nair at the peak, i have autocanceled it! hurray!

"autocanceling" is a fancy way of saying that you are forced to do all aerials that have a measurable amount of landing lag only in certain positions or timings (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is in no way similar to l-cancel)

not really

you actually do remove a portion of an attack's animation when you autocancel it. You're landing before the aerial ends AND landing with zero lag. This was also possible in Melee, but you could only autocancel after the last couple frames which made it almost useless. In Brawl there is a much larger window, often allowing you to land lagless when an aerial is only 3/4 of the way through its animation.

If you jump in the air, perform an aerial and then land shortly after the aerial completely ends, that is NOT autocanceling.

 

[Skler]

You know, I just saw Sliq's most recent Youtube match, and he really, really likes spamming those Dair's. And yet he still won against a campy, lasering, chaingrabbing Falco. I don't know Sliq's style, but if he could use that move so much and still come out with a victory against a proposed high-tier character, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ganon comes and gives a shocker to the Brawl tournament scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfLZlBpGTcQ [The match I'm referring to]

At first I thought the falco was decent, then i saw him try to play offensively. That was a bad falco. Using your logic, I've 4 stocked a bunch of foxes with my link in tournament. Sure, all those foxes did was try to do stupid things like approach with the fair, but I still beat a bunch of foxes. Link might just dominate the Melee tournament scene.

This isn't a shot at Sliq, Sliq is awesome/cool/dresses like jigglypuff, but ganon will only win against a falco who doesn't play with the correct style. That player approached, and by doing so he must have either gotten fed up with how boring brawl is or just didn't know how to play as Falco.

 

[pockyD]

so you have an extra 2frame window to start your move without lag (yes melee had this too, most noticeably with ness's dair, peach's fair, etc) - it's still a restriction that l-canceling doesn't present

and it's also not the definition of "auto-canceling" that most smashers subscribe too

saying auto-canceling replicates the functionality of l-canceling is like saying walking can substitute for wavedashing

 

[Endless Nightmares]

so you have an extra 2frame window to start your move without lag (yes melee had this too, most noticeably with ness's dair, peach's fair, etc) - it's still a restriction that l-canceling doesn't present

Like I said before, in Brawl there is a much larger window, often allowing you to land lagless when an aerial is only 3/4 of the way through its animation.

and it's also not the definition of "auto-canceling" that most smashers subscribe too

I don't know who "most smashers" are, but this is the only definition of autocanceling that I know of. What is the other one?

saying auto-canceling replicates the functionality of l-canceling is like saying walking can substitute for wavedashing

I never said that lol. I was just saying that they share a common factor in that they both allow you to perform an aerial and land with considerably less lag.

 

[Zankoku]

Or you can just pick Meta Knight and never have to land with an aerial at all. Or pick G&W and actually be protected by an extra hitbox after landing with an aerial. Or pick Peach and have ****-all for autocancel windows. Autocanceling is just something that you're expected to do, but only with certain characters, so it's like a much more situational L-Cancel that only sets up for certain things.

This is why I don't bother and just figure out the frames I have to work with regardless.

 

[pockyD]

Like I said before, in Brawl there is a much larger window, often allowing you to land lagless when an aerial is only 3/4 of the way through its animation.

this is VERY move-dependent, and once again, the timing aspect of it alters when and where you can put the hitbox out there, therefore changing how the move can be used and what targets can be hit

I don't know who "most smashers" are, but this is the only definition of autocanceling that I know of. What is the other one?

98% of smashers believe "auto-canceling" is simply finishing an aerial before you land, and as such, that's what the term means now. stupid? yes.

I never said that lol. I was just saying that they share a common factor in that they both allow you to perform an aerial and land with considerably less lag.

But auto canceling is just as useful as L-canceling was. It's not that much different, it's another relatively simple way to perform aerials with less landing lag (in this case none)

 

[Reaver197]

saying auto-canceling replicates the functionality of l-canceling is like saying walking can substitute for wavedashing

I never said that lol. I was just saying that they share a common factor in that they both allow you to perform an aerial and land with considerably less lag.

But auto canceling is just as useful as L-canceling was.

Spoiler

10s

Edit: Ah, pocky beat me to it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

98% of smashers believe "auto-canceling" is simply finishing an aerial before you land, and as such, that's what the term means now. stupid? yes.

Wait, what the ****? When did this happen

 

[Zankoku]

Silly 56k, at least you weren't being so careless as to contradict yourself on the same page. :V

 

[pockyD]

Wait, what the ****? When did this happen

read any prolonged discussion about "auto-canceling" and you will see massive confusion from people who don't know what it means

this is just the first result for "autocancel" i got from searching the tactical boards, but just read through the posts if you don't believe that most smashers don't know what it means

edit: note that the topic creator himself doesn't get it mixed up, and he even takes the time out to explain the difference between real autocanceling and what most people perceive as "autocanceling", and despite this, the first X pages of the thread are still spent arguing what "autocanceling" actually means

 

[thumbswayup]

Most smashers are devoid of intellect.

 

[Pink Reaper]

read any prolonged discussion about "auto-canceling" and you will see massive confusion from people who don't know what it means

this is just the first result for "autocancel" i got from searching the tactical boards, but just read through the posts if you don't believe that most smashers don't know what it means

edit: note that the topic creator himself doesn't get it mixed up, and he even takes the time out to explain the difference between real autocanceling and what most people perceive as "autocanceling", and despite this, the first X pages of the thread are still spent arguing what "autocanceling" actually means

Im more amazed that he told Super Doodle Man that he didn't know what he was talking about

Im gonna go tell M2K he doesn't know anything about smash.