pockyD
Smash Legend
why did this suddenly become about character johns
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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
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Aesir
Smash Master
This is smashboards, they john about everything.
- SRK
- SRK
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
Falcon has the upper hand on marth as long as he doesn't go to marth when he's at the edge. Disagree and you are a scrub.
-Wolfy-
Smash Champion
pockyD, I'm even more lost. Last time I checked back, Nigerian Star Storm had just received his Dazwa Medal of Excellence in research on priority in street fighter I. I miss when we were debating Melee/Brawl in terms of 'competitiveness'.
We cant really have that debate any more though because basically everyone accepts that Melee >>>>> Brawl in terms of competitiveness
Inb4n00bdisagrees
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
You never know, you have to be prepared for any random idiot that may enter this topic >_>.
epitragia
Smash Rookie
I guess by the definition posted here, then this game is less competitive than Melee. But why do we have to accept an arbitrary definition for what it means to be comeptitive? It's true that training doesn't bear much fruit for this game, but if you can learn to play people into your tricks and ruses then you can exploit them and punish. It takes something else besides practice on inanimate computers to learn how to execute this well, so that's why so many people hastily conclude that this game requires no skill. What I'm saying in simple terms is that people misconceive the strategies to this game, probably because they're so used to the outdated mechanics of Melee. The bottom line is that noobs can't beat an good player (except now what makes a good player is a little bit unusual or even unorthodox, and people havne't caught on yet).
Reaver197
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
- Messages
- 1,287
Well, I was just trying to good naturely joke about, but I guess my inner john was not easily veiled. > _ > I didn't really mean anything by it.
I agree, but one must wonder...where does the edge end and the rest of the level begin?
PolMex23
Smash Champion
Someone just said a couple pages ago that if a games character selection would be completely balanced than that game would be boring?!?!?!
Are you kidding me?
Perhaps those who mained C Falc or Marth actually loved Pichu or Yoshi, but decided not to use them or put the effort in mastering them when, a better player using the top tier characters would win 95% of the time.
Germ mained link, an Azen was amazing with him. But, did Azen switch to Link during a Tourney match? Did Germ win huge melee tournaments with Link?
No, an I bet you Germ an those others that have very good gaming talent an decide to main a lower tier character wish their favorite char would be a bit more ... balanced.
Problem is developers wouldn't have the patience or the time too make such a balanced roster in any game.
Oh an yea, just to drive this point further down the skulls of the few who say Brawl is a more balanced game...wow. Right now, Snake, MK, D3....
Melee....8 characters were top tier? Fox, Falcon, Jiggs, Samus, Marth, Sheik, Peach, and C Falc...oh, Chu Dats ICs...
Im going to win a tourney in Florida with Luigi soon....so there will be 4 top tier chars in Brawl....xD
Are you kidding me?
Perhaps those who mained C Falc or Marth actually loved Pichu or Yoshi, but decided not to use them or put the effort in mastering them when, a better player using the top tier characters would win 95% of the time.
Germ mained link, an Azen was amazing with him. But, did Azen switch to Link during a Tourney match? Did Germ win huge melee tournaments with Link?
No, an I bet you Germ an those others that have very good gaming talent an decide to main a lower tier character wish their favorite char would be a bit more ... balanced.
Problem is developers wouldn't have the patience or the time too make such a balanced roster in any game.
Oh an yea, just to drive this point further down the skulls of the few who say Brawl is a more balanced game...wow. Right now, Snake, MK, D3....
Melee....8 characters were top tier? Fox, Falcon, Jiggs, Samus, Marth, Sheik, Peach, and C Falc...oh, Chu Dats ICs...
Im going to win a tourney in Florida with Luigi soon....so there will be 4 top tier chars in Brawl....xD
You should try being a Kirby main. I don't even have to John, people just expect me to lose
Complete balance would require every character be the same. I'm pretty sure a game that consists of nothing but ditto matchups would be pretty boring =(
A character select screen made up entirely of Captain Falcon disagrees with you.
PolMex23
Smash Champion
Uh, no. It just means that every character has about equal chance to beat nay other character in that game. So..
If the two gamers in the match are at = skill lvl, than its a 50 50 toss up on who wins, depending on the mistakes made by each player during the match.
I don't think that sounds remotely boring.
An yes, if just Captain Falcons.....YES, YES, YES YES..YEeeeeeeeeeS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Show me your BOOBS!!!
Forget the rest of this post, what's wrong with this. If a better player is going into a match, THEY SHOULD WIN?!?!?!? What's wrong with someone who is better winning? That's how it should be! And someone who is on the same level as someone else, as a certain advantage when you apply the tier list. If I'm better than you, then I could beat you with my Roy. If you are better than me, you can beat me with your character, even if they are low tiered. Why? BECAUSE YOU ARE BETTER!
If the person who is better doesn't have a high chance of winning, what's the point in playing?
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
My problem with this thread is very simple. Most of the people who think they know anything about competetive games who are posting in this thread ... dont... They were nubs and the cmpetetive melee and are now experiencing somewhat success in the nintendo play toy brawl.... where the game plays itself for you lol... Stop postin if u weren't good at melee.... u don't know wtf ur talking about.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Then I must be a n00b for disagreeing.
Testament27
Smash Journeyman
lol sorry but not true at all. look at super street fighter 2 turbo. That is a VERY BALANCED game, and last i checked, it was pretty diverse. There is no such thing as perfect balance in fighting games, especially when you have a diverse cast of characters with a vast array of attacks and personalities. The trick is to get the balance to be as close to perfect as possible. Hell, it took street fighter multiple times with 2 different iterations (2 and sf3) to get the balance for the games to a fine degree.
No, we just know you as The Devil's Advocate.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Everytime I see Panda post I think.
Well. That topic's closed. XD
Anyway anyone notice that it started at SF2. Went to the fast SF2Turbo and slowed down for SSF2?
Seems kind of familiar, huh?
Well. That topic's closed. XD
Anyway anyone notice that it started at SF2. Went to the fast SF2Turbo and slowed down for SSF2?
Seems kind of familiar, huh?
It kinda makes you wonder if Street Fighter (4 I think, whichever one is coming out soon) will have a mechanic where you player will randomly trip.
Except, we all know that notion would be ridiculous... oh wait... Brawl.
Except, we all know that notion would be ridiculous... oh wait... Brawl.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I can't wait to get that. It has online right? Maybe we'll have friend codes!
Except, we all know that notion would be ridiculous... oh wait... Brawl.
Except, we all know that notion would be ridiculous... oh wait... Brawl.
edit: lol i can't read at 5:30 johns
although falcon dittos forever sounds pretty awesome, individual character matchups, your knowledge of them and your ability to apply that knowledge are much more interesting, to me at least. i can't say I'd enjoy actual fox only final destination, lol.
tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger not to mention it's being rebalanced YET AGAIN in HD remix
i hear guilty gear is mad balanced though
this is more or less what I was saying in the first place, lol. someone else was suggesting complete balance (and thus nothing but ditto matchups), not me.
edit: seriously, looking back at your post again it sorta looks like you quoted the wrong person
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
I was gonna call him on that but I figured I've been spell checking him too much as it is already.
Testament27
Smash Journeyman
lol youre right dazwa... it was 3:30 after i had been studying for a physics test so please excuse my failure :embarrass
and yeah you called the tiger shots, but it looks like hd remix may finally bring super turbo to the closest a game can get to equilibrium.
on a side note: SF4 does look amazingly fun to play. Im gonna retain smash, but those two are going to be my competitive fighters. GUILE FTW. You guys should buy sticks for your respective systems so we can all have sf4 side tourneys at big brawls.
edit: ive heard good things about guilty gear as well but ive never played em
SmashAura4
Smash Apprentice
(Here we go)
I strongly believe that Melee is a much more competitive game than Brawl.
Melee was a lot more fast paced, and had a plethera of techs and tricks, like wavedashing. It was these elements of the game that created a whole new experience for players. It was also a game that thrived on skill, and not so much on luck like in Brawl. Overall, it was a game for the most serious of players.
Now that Brawl is out, people argue that there is little or no competitiveness in the game whatsoever. The items, the tripping, the slow pace of the game, create an unbalanced atmosphere that can throw off a competitive match. It almost seems like they made it worse, but I don't think that's the case.
Nintendo did say that they were taking a broader approach to the gaming community. If you look at most Wii games, they're meant to draw all types of people in. I believe Nintendo is trying to draw more people in to the gaming experience. Unfortunately, in trying to make a game for everyone to enjoy, they neglect the competitive side of the Smash series. So people start turning on the game when their 8-year-old brother, who nevered played N64 or Melee, wins a lot more than he should, thanks to the almighty smash ball.
There's still a little competitiveness in Brawl, it's just not as deep as it was in Brawl. So yeah, Melee is a way more competitive game.
(Phew)
I strongly believe that Melee is a much more competitive game than Brawl.
Melee was a lot more fast paced, and had a plethera of techs and tricks, like wavedashing. It was these elements of the game that created a whole new experience for players. It was also a game that thrived on skill, and not so much on luck like in Brawl. Overall, it was a game for the most serious of players.
Now that Brawl is out, people argue that there is little or no competitiveness in the game whatsoever. The items, the tripping, the slow pace of the game, create an unbalanced atmosphere that can throw off a competitive match. It almost seems like they made it worse, but I don't think that's the case.
Nintendo did say that they were taking a broader approach to the gaming community. If you look at most Wii games, they're meant to draw all types of people in. I believe Nintendo is trying to draw more people in to the gaming experience. Unfortunately, in trying to make a game for everyone to enjoy, they neglect the competitive side of the Smash series. So people start turning on the game when their 8-year-old brother, who nevered played N64 or Melee, wins a lot more than he should, thanks to the almighty smash ball.
There's still a little competitiveness in Brawl, it's just not as deep as it was in Brawl. So yeah, Melee is a way more competitive game.
(Phew)
PolMex23
Smash Champion
Wait, let me rephrase what I said. For what I meant to say is, no matter how good you are, you will have no chance against a better player....especially if they have a higher tier character than you have.
Upsets won't happen if your usin Pichu or Yoshi against a high tier character played by a better player. BUT, your likeliness of winning is extremely low even if the other player is at = skill level with you. Sure, Eddy had an amazing Ganon. Germ an amazing Link. But Ive seen them get beat by players arguably not any more skilled with them, with C Falc, Marth, or Fox.
And I'm not defending scrubs who look for upsets. I'm just saying that sometimes It just won't matter your skill level when you go into a tournament using a low tier character. You just expect to lose. It would be great If all It came down to was skill. It doesn't when you have Yoshi against C Falc.
Yeah, I've been reading Sirlin's blog on how he's changing stuff around for HDRemix, and I can't wait for it as a result. I find it funny that in their re-balancing, they managed to make Fei Long as broken as Akuma, then when they attempted to fix him he ended being the worst character in the game, but I think they found a balance for him now.
I'm definitely thinking about it, both SFIV and HDRemix look nice.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Welcome to MD/VA.
Testament27
Smash Journeyman
not quite. the main difference between melee and brawl is that melee was more influenced by skill and the ability to do certain techniques, which required training and experience. Brawl takes emphasis off of that and stress's the wits of the players. Brawl is more of a virtual chess game than a fighting game. Its a much more psychologically engaging game.
Again, it all comes down to your definition of "competitive." Systematically, melee has more depth than brawl, but when it comes to a battle of the minds, brawl is the more superior imo.
Dazwa: this is extremely noob, but how do you change the color of your username? premium account?
Skler
Smash Master
No matter how good you are you should always lose to a better player because they're better. The worse player shouldn't win, that would be silly.
There are no two people at a completely equal skill level, but obviously since characters are different one has a better chance at winning. Character matters in Melee, but that doesn't stop low tier players from being able to beat everyone except those who have just as much (or more) skill.
Your skill matters when you go into a tournament using a low tier character. Have you stopped to think that maybe low tier mains aren't as skilled as the people who beat them? I can't beat PC, and it isn't because Link has a bad matchup against Fox.
Melee isn't perfectly balanced or anything, some matchups are total garbage (pichu vs ICs, for example), but unless you're in a garbage matchup you can win it. The matchup matters when the players are extremely close to each other in skill, otherwise the better player will win (pretty much) all the time.
Tires exit, but they don matter as much as you make it seem.
Edit: Oh hell no. Brawl isn't a more psychologically engaging game. You can play off reactions because of how slow the game is and dominate. Brawl isn't a battle of the minds any more than Melee is. It's arguable that it has much more to do with reactions than Melee does because it's slow enough to make that possible (in melee you would have to be superhuman to play with reactions only).
arrowhead
Smash Ace
What Are You Talking About Metaknight Dittos Are Amazing Whoosh Whooshsshhhh!!!!!
thumbswayup
Smash Master
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What's Hiemie?
Ban3
Smash Journeyman
what if ur more than one?
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