Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[SmashAura4]

not quite. the main difference between melee and brawl is that melee was more influenced by skill and the ability to do certain techniques, which required training and experience. Brawl takes emphasis off of that and stress's the wits of the players. Brawl is more of a virtual chess game than a fighting game. Its a much more psychologically engaging game.

Again, it all comes down to your definition of "competitive." Systematically, melee has more depth than brawl, but when it comes to a battle of the minds, brawl is the more superior imo.

Dazwa: this is extremely noob, but how do you change the color of your username? premium account?

So what you're saying is Melee was more competitive in a sense of skill, while brawl is competitive in a sense of wit. I hadn't thought of it that way, very interesting. So I guess you believe that brawl is the more competitive of the two?

 

[-Wolfy-]

So what you're saying is Melee was more competitive in a sense of skill, while brawl is competitive in a sense of wit. I hadn't thought of it that way, very interesting. So I guess you believe that brawl is the more competitive of the two?

no...no...no non no noo.

There is the same level, if not higher at that, of mind games in melee that is infinitely deeper due to the variety of available tech skill. Brawl has a much narrower scope of tech skill, and therefore there is less room for application, and less room for "mindgames" on the whole.

melee=/=brawl in tech skill and brawl is by no means a greater game of wit. It's just geared to seem like what you said for entry level players because they simply do not have the tech skill to appreciate melee for the level of "wit" and "mindgames" that comes through experience.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Man, I want Heimie's color SO bad.

 

[TechnoMonster]

A player's inability to dominate. The game forces matches to be close as best it can. This hinders us from using matches as a test of skill.

What is this game if not played by players? And I disagree entirely with your point; I think there is sufficient proof in the tournaments; Top players win with VERY HIGH consistency; take DSF on the west coast and Azen and M2K on the east coast; both have been through almost a dozen 64-man brackets and dominated the tournament scene fairly completely. I think if the game was working against the ability to win by a margin, then his matches would be much more random and we would see higher variance in tournament winners.

You guys are hella off topic.

 

[SmashAura4]

no...no...no non no noo.

There is the same level, if not higher at that, of mind games in melee that is infinitely deeper due to the variety of available tech skill. Brawl has a much narrower scope of tech skill, and therefore there is less room for application, and less room for "mindgames" on the whole.

melee=/=brawl in tech skill and brawl is by no means a greater game of wit. It's just geared to seem like what you said for entry level players because they simply do not have the tech skill to appreciate melee for the level of "wit" and "mindgames" that comes through experience.

First of all, before you bite my head off, let me make clear that I did not commit to that statement . I was just merely stating that I hadn't thought of that element of gameplay.

Second, I am by no means a debater, so I won't say much. I too believe melee is the more competitive, but you make it sound that brawl is a sorry attempt to bring more people to the competitive world. Do you believe that the smash series should be reserved for serious players. Forgive me if I misinterpret.

(I really should have taken that debate class.)

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Screw Debate classes.....my debating skills are all natural >_>.

 

[-Wolfy-]

First of all, before you bite my head off, let me make clear that I did not commit to that statement . I was just merely stating that I hadn't thought of that element of gameplay.

Second, I am by no means a debater, so I won't say much. I too believe melee is the more competitive, but you make it sound that brawl is a sorry attempt to bring more people to the competitive world. Do you believe that the smash series should be reserved for serious players. Forgive me if I misinterpret.

(I really should have taken that debate class.)

I think you interpret a bit too much, if anything. Everything highlighted is an unreasonable assumption.

I only mean to show that there is a common misconception about Melee and Brawl, and that is that Melee is only about the tech skill, and that Brawl is only about the mindgames.

The more options you have to work with, the more complex the "mindgames" aspect will be. Since it is pretty commonly held fact that Melee is more technical due to its physics engine, the Melee player simply has more options with which to create his/her "mindgames". The fact is, Brawl is less technical (yet not technically bereft) and therefore the Brawl player's "mindgames" cannot possibly be as complex/elaborate as those of a Melee player.

What came off as elitist condescent, was truly meant to serve as a musing to those who haven't played Melee as thoroughly as others. Since the Brawl induced influx of members, naturally there are some people who have less personal experience with the meta game of Melee. Melee was NOT all about being able to perform a few set button combinations. More and more people seem to bring this fact up, but it is not the case. No offense to Silent Wolf, but although he is one of the most technically impressive players I've ever seen, it would not ensure him an instant victory against another smasher.

EDIT: And my assertions are not very sound as far as debate form goes. Assertions based on assumptions and commonly held beliefs are never incontrovertible.

 

[Skler]

Because nobody read my other post apparently I'll just copy paste a bit.

Brawl isn't a more psychologically engaging game. You can play off reactions because of how slow the game is and dominate. Brawl isn't a battle of minds any more than Melee is. It's arguable that it has much more to do with reactions than Melee does because it's slow enough to make that possible (in Melee you would have to be superhuman to play with reactions only). Brawl requires less creativity and trickiness than Melee because of how slow it is.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Because nobody read my other post apparently I'll just copy paste a bit.

Brawl isn't a more psychologically engaging game. You can play off reactions because of how slow the game is and dominate. Brawl isn't a battle of minds any more than Melee is. It's arguable that it has much more to do with reactions than Melee does because it's slow enough to make that possible (in Melee you would have to be superhuman to play with reactions only). Brawl requires less creativity and trickiness than Melee because of how slow it is.

Didn't Ankoku say this a while ago?

 

[SmashAura4]

I think you interpret a bit too much, if anything. Everything highlighted is an unreasonable assumption.

I only mean to show that there is a common misconception about Melee and Brawl, and that is that Melee is only about the tech skill, and that Brawl is only about the mindgames.

The more options you have to work with, the more complex the "mindgames" aspect will be. Since it is pretty commonly held fact that Melee is more technical due to its physics engine, the Melee player simply has more options with which to create his/her "mindgames". The fact is, Brawl is less technical (yet not technically bereft) and therefore the Brawl player's "mindgames" cannot possibly be as complex/elaborate as those of a Melee player.

What came off as elitist condescent, was truly meant to serve as a musing to those who haven't played Melee as thoroughly as others. Since the Brawl induced influx of members, naturally there are some people who have less personal experience with the meta game of Melee. Melee was NOT all about being able to perform a few set button combinations. More and more people seem to bring this fact up, but it is not the case. No offense to Silent Wolf, but although he is one of the most technically impressive players I've ever seen, it would not ensure him an instant victory against another smasher.

EDIT: And my assertions are not very sound as far as debate form goes. Assertions based on assumptions and commonly held beliefs are never incontrovertible.

Hmmm, okay then. I guess I just needed a little more clarity on what you said. And thanks for not being a jerk about it. You're cool.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Ok, setting a rule now. No more saying that brawl requires more mindgames or is more mentally taxing than melee.... This point makes no sense and is baseless lol. Any pro brawl debators need to stop using this argument because melee has the same amount of mindgames (notice how im not gonna get into it having more at this time) only it also involved mixing in technical skill as well. FACT = BRAWL DOES NOT REQUIRE MORE MIND GAMES, ONE SIMPLY HAS TO RELY ONLY ON MINDGAMES BECAUSE THERE IS NOT MUCH TECHNICAL SKILL TO MASTER. ANYONE WHO TRUELY WAS INVOLVED IN MELEE SHOULD KNOW THIS SO IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE POSTING THIS NON-SENSE STOP!! LOL THIS **** IS REALLY GETTING ON MY NERVES. IF YOU HAVE ONLY PLAYED BRAWL.... THEN U CANT BE PART OF THE DEBATE BECAUSE U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT MELEE... GG.


STOP MAKING THAT POINT NOOB SERIOUSLY OMFG LOL.









PS. STOP MAKING THAT ****ING POINT IT IS NOT TRUE..........

 

[Corigames]

You know, that statement will just cause more non-sense :D

 

[BIG C]

rofl <3 trail

 

[-Wolfy-]

Ok, setting a rule now. No more saying that brawl requires more mindgames or is more mentally taxing than melee.... This point makes no sense and is baseless lol. Any pro brawl debators need to stop using this argument because melee has the same amount of mindgames (notice how im not gonna get into it having more at this time) only it also involved mixing in technical skill as well. FACT = BRAWL DOES NOT REQUIRE MORE MIND GAMES, ONE SIMPLY HAS TO RELY ONLY ON MINDGAMES BECAUSE THERE IS NOT MUCH TECHNICAL SKILL TO MASTER. ANYONE WHO TRUELY WAS INVOLVED IN MELEE SHOULD KNOW THIS SO IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE POSTING THIS NON-SENSE STOP!! LOL THIS **** IS REALLY GETTING ON MY NERVES. IF YOU HAVE ONLY PLAYED BRAWL.... THEN U CANT BE PART OF THE DEBATE BECAUSE U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT MELEE... GG.


STOP MAKING THAT POINT NOOB SERIOUSLY OMFG LOL.









PS. STOP MAKING THAT ****ING POINT IT IS NOT TRUE..........

That's pretty much what I said. Only, I think your delivery could use some work.

@Smash Aura, Thanks, and no worries. I think a big part of the issue here is the things people are saying combined with the things people think are being said, and a little clarification goes a long way in such a divisive issue.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Ok, setting a rule now. No more saying that brawl requires more mindgames or is more mentally taxing than melee.... This point makes no sense and is baseless lol. Any pro brawl debators need to stop using this argument because melee has the same amount of mindgames (notice how im not gonna get into it having more at this time) only it also involved mixing in technical skill as well. FACT = BRAWL DOES NOT REQUIRE MORE MIND GAMES, ONE SIMPLY HAS TO RELY ONLY ON MINDGAMES BECAUSE THERE IS NOT MUCH TECHNICAL SKILL TO MASTER. ANYONE WHO TRUELY WAS INVOLVED IN MELEE SHOULD KNOW THIS SO IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE POSTING THIS NON-SENSE STOP!! LOL THIS **** IS REALLY GETTING ON MY NERVES. IF YOU HAVE ONLY PLAYED BRAWL.... THEN U CANT BE PART OF THE DEBATE BECAUSE U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT MELEE... GG.


STOP MAKING THAT POINT NOOB SERIOUSLY OMFG LOL.









PS. STOP MAKING THAT ****ING POINT IT IS NOT TRUE..........

While what you're saying is truem you could make the actual delivery a bit less insulting and less caps >_>.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Ok, setting a rule now. No more saying that brawl requires more mindgames or is more mentally taxing than melee.... This point makes no sense and is baseless lol. Any pro brawl debators need to stop using this argument because melee has the same amount of mindgames (notice how im not gonna get into it having more at this time) only it also involved mixing in technical skill as well. FACT = BRAWL DOES NOT REQUIRE MORE MIND GAMES, ONE SIMPLY HAS TO RELY ONLY ON MINDGAMES BECAUSE THERE IS NOT MUCH TECHNICAL SKILL TO MASTER. ANYONE WHO TRUELY WAS INVOLVED IN MELEE SHOULD KNOW THIS SO IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE PEOPLE POSTING THIS NON-SENSE STOP!! LOL THIS **** IS REALLY GETTING ON MY NERVES. IF YOU HAVE ONLY PLAYED BRAWL.... THEN U CANT BE PART OF THE DEBATE BECAUSE U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT MELEE... GG.


STOP MAKING THAT POINT NOOB SERIOUSLY OMFG LOL.









PS. STOP MAKING THAT ****ING POINT IT IS NOT TRUE..........

Snarf snarf

 

[metalmonstar]

I figured it out. The people who are pro-melee are the people who had their mains get nerfed. People who mained Peach and Captain Falcon hate Brawl, like Scar and Yuna. The bro Brawl are the ones who either got their character super buffed, Anther or got a new character that is awesome to play with, Overswarm and AZ.

I just hope you all note the sarcasm.

 

[Corigames]

So what about people who played Marth? He didn't change much. He's still high tiered and does what he always has?

 

[metalmonstar]

So what about people who played Marth? He didn't change much. He's still high tiered and does what he always has?

Emblem Lord stated that Marth has changed maybe not in anything major but just a lot of little things. He may still be a beast but his popularity seems to have decreased. It could be because of his changes and the large amount of new characters.

 

[Hiemie]

What's Hiemie?

Did somebody say my name?

 

[Aesir]

I figured it out. The people who are pro-melee are the people who had their mains get nerfed. People who mained Peach and Captain Falcon hate Brawl, like Scar and Yuna. The bro Brawl are the ones who either got their character super buffed, Anther or got a new character that is awesome to play with, Overswarm and AZ.

I just hope you all note the sarcasm.

Learn to logic please.

 

[PolMex23]

I figured it out. The people who are pro-melee are the people who had their mains get nerfed. People who mained Peach and Captain Falcon hate Brawl, like Scar and Yuna. The bro Brawl are the ones who either got their character super buffed, Anther or got a new character that is awesome to play with, Overswarm and AZ.

I just hope you all note the sarcasm. End quote

This is a bit reasonable. I know many who hate brawl for this ^ They mained C Falc an Peach.

Its probably a strong cause for the hate. Once you find one flaw, the others tend to show much more drastically. The downgrade of there characters was a flaw to them, then the other more obvious ones came extremely apparent.

 

[Aesir]

I don't like brawl, I mained marth, I use lucario in brawl.

I just dislike the game play, I can't get into it at all.

 

[D3w3y]

I think we can all agree this arguement will never be agreed on by everyone it almost seems pointless to argue at this point, enjoy SSB in all its greatness.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I figured it out. The people who are pro-melee are the people who had their mains get nerfed. People who mained Peach and Captain Falcon hate Brawl, like Scar and Yuna. The bro Brawl are the ones who either got their character super buffed, Anther or got a new character that is awesome to play with, Overswarm and AZ.

I just hope you all note the sarcasm.

Overswarm is pro Melee.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I figured it out. The people who are pro-melee are the people who had their mains get nerfed. People who mained Peach and Captain Falcon hate Brawl, like Scar and Yuna. The bro Brawl are the ones who either got their character super buffed, Anther or got a new character that is awesome to play with, Overswarm and AZ.

I just hope you all note the sarcasm.

Kirby Main

<-----------------------

 

[KosukeKGA]

This thread is still fun to argue though!

 

[Iron Thorn]

I figured it out. The people who are pro-melee are the people who had their mains get nerfed. People who mained Peach and Captain Falcon hate Brawl, like Scar and Yuna. The bro Brawl are the ones who either got their character super buffed, Anther or got a new character that is awesome to play with, Overswarm and AZ.

I just hope you all note the sarcasm.

As a Zelda/Wolf main...holy crap you're right. Also, Zelda looks FANTABULAMAZING in Brawl.

I like Brawl much better, I just miss how much further you could zoom the camera in on Melee. "Hey sis, check this out! Zelda, Marth, and Roy have nostrils! NOSTRILS, I tell you!"

 

[RDK]

Melee vets don't hate Brawl because their favorite characters got nerfed, they hate it because the game sucks balls.

Overswarm was good in Melee; he doesn't automatically hate Brawl because his main now sucks. He just switched over to someone good (ROB). That's why you see people who actually made the effort to switch to the Brawl scene like Cort and PC Chris using Snake and Metaknight.

 

[-Wolfy-]

They aren't just Melee vets either, they're competitive gamers that can make a good amount of money, and they follow the competition, which is not a bad thing.

 

[Brookman]

I wouldn't expect a great baseball player to stay with a weak that can't pay him what he deserves team just just cause it's his home town team, or something like that.

 

[pockyD]

most of the top players were never tied to characters because of "sentimental" reasons; they chose mains based on their preferred playstyles, and it's not unreasonable to expect that with a new game, they would choose a new character that better suits their style

 

[Zankoku]

Overswarm was good in Melee; he doesn't automatically hate Brawl because his main now sucks.

Define "good."

 

[Zodiac]

I never really fully understood why brawl was "bad"(For lack of me wanting to go into a detailed post to appease the brawlers) But I read one that stated how the one strategy of camping and spamming so overly effective it essentially sends all finesse and skill out the window. I realize now that its true.

I consistantly play brawl with two people, one is Dmstudios who I enjoy brawling with because frankly he is no camper and doesn't play the game like most people do. Same as me, and we have a lot of fun playing it.

The other shall not be named but is a scrub among scrubs, he hates melee and voices it quite often. He always uses the same strategy and I always wondered why it beat my counter strategies, and then after reading a post here it hit me. My god, Brawl really does suck as a competitive game. Up until now I've really liked brawl and tried to play it and enjoy it(Even though I have always liked melee much better). But now that I know this. I mean really know that im wasting my time getting better at brawl because all that time and effort can get stomped by ONE gimp strategy a noob can use. I don't think I'll ever pick up the game again in an effort to get better.

I know many of you on the brawl forums don't believe I played brawl.. eat this

 

[ShadowLink84]

I never really fully understood why brawl was "bad"(For lack of me wanting to go into a detailed post to appease the brawlers) But I read one that stated how the one strategy of camping and spamming so overly effective it essentially sends all finesse and skill out the window. I realize now that its true.

Sadly it is indeed effective.However they aren't unapproachable, only a few characters actually get completely walled by camping and only a few characters are very proficient at it.
(Wolf and TL for example)

The other shall not be named but is a scrub among scrubs, he hates melee and voices it quite often. He always uses the same strategy and I always wondered why it beat my counter strategies, and then after reading a post here it hit me.

Might I ask who he uses and whom do you use?
Matchups are a much greater part of the game so it isn't that your counter strategies are ineffective, its simply that your character is incapable of performing those said counter strategies.
My counter strategies for Yoshi (when facing camping and spam)will not work the same as they would for Sonic or Wario.
Simply because Wario and Sonic can actually put those strategies to better use.
Sad but true, this game is more affected by whom you are facing and whom you choose.

My god, Brawl really does suck as a competitive game. Up until now I've really liked brawl and tried to play it and enjoy it(Even though I have always liked melee much better). But now that I know this. I mean really know that im wasting my time getting better at brawl because all that time and effort can get stomped by ONE gimp strategy a noob can use. I don't think I'll ever pick up the game again in an effort to get better.

you got gimped by a n00b?
<.<

Gimping is actually harder to do in this game than it was in melee due to auto sweetspot, increased floatiness and overall better recoveries as well as the new airdodge system and lack of hitstun.
Really if you got gimped by a n00b then its your own fault. Ther eis nor eason to get gimped by a n00b in Brawl.

This game is nowhere near as friendly to n00bs as people make it out to be, the same people who won past melee tournaments are winning brawl tournaments.

Granted the matchups do hit harder than last game but a n00b will always lose to a pro even if that n00b is using Snake and the pro is using CF.

The skill gap is lesser but not non-existant.


And yes I do prefer melee.

 

[thumbswayup]

I never really fully understood why brawl was "bad"(For lack of me wanting to go into a detailed post to appease the brawlers) But I read one that stated how the one strategy of camping and spamming so overly effective it essentially sends all finesse and skill out the window. I realize now that its true.

I consistantly play brawl with two people, one is Dmstudios who I enjoy brawling with because frankly he is no camper and doesn't play the game like most people do. Same as me, and we have a lot of fun playing it.

The other shall not be named but is a scrub among scrubs, he hates melee and voices it quite often. He always uses the same strategy and I always wondered why it beat my counter strategies, and then after reading a post here it hit me. My god, Brawl really does suck as a competitive game. Up until now I've really liked brawl and tried to play it and enjoy it(Even though I have always liked melee much better). But now that I know this. I mean really know that im wasting my time getting better at brawl because all that time and effort can get stomped by ONE gimp strategy a noob can use. I don't think I'll ever pick up the game again in an effort to get better.

I know many of you on the brawl forums don't believe I played brawl.. eat this

Welcome brother, we've been expecting you.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Get better.

 

[metalmonstar]

...Did anyone read the full thing? Like the last part that made mention that it was all sarcasm. Do I have to add [sarcasm] [end sarcasm] to my post. I think I will add that to the things I have learned on Smashboards thread since the reaction was quite amusing.

I fail to see how noobs can win. It seems Azen, Forte, Futile, M2K, Cort, Overswarm, and PC chris are winning pretty consecutively. If the definition is as Scar, "an innate property to allow the best to win." then the best are winning and thus Brawl is competitive.

Lots of games have noob strategies, the good players are the ones that can beat the higher level strategies and the good players.

In Soul Caliber two I had a friend who practiced the techs and combos all of the time. He was the best at his college campus. I picked Talim and button Mashed for consecutive victories. I had a very basic idea of the button config and I knew a few combos I could do. That was it. It seems like anyone who loses to a strategy like that should just quit and find a new game?

There was a joke I saw somewhere about the three strategies for a fighting game.
The Rock-Blocking until time runs out.
The specialist-Using the same unstoppable move over and over again
Button masher-Hitting all of the buttons in rapid succession in hopes of something cool happening.

 

[Skler]

In Melee you could tell how good a player was by looking at tournament results. People who placed even in the top 10% of national tournaments were always really good players. Obviously the best player will win most of the time regardless of how bad the game is, don't expect marthlord233 to beat Azen in Brawl just because Brawl isn't a good competitive game. However, players who are just good can beat people the pros because Brawl doesn't have a big skill gap.

Let's say an average Melee player went up against Azen. Azen would four stock the poor guy twice in a row if he wanted to, and he could do it with most of the cast. Now let's say Azen goes up against the same guy in Brawl, chances are the games would be closer and (if the average player plays a good character) Azen wouldn't even be able to win with more than half the cast. Hell, the pros in Melee completely destroy good players because of how much better they are. Brawl stops the best players from showing their full potential and lets bad players think they don't suck. I shouldn't be able to repeatedly push the B button with metaknight while aiming the gray stick at my opponent and take off a stock. That's bad.

 

[KosukeKGA]

It's too bad so many Brawl noobs fail to realize this and keep throwing their money away at tournies for people like Cort to Snake them.

It's stupid. If it's money from the Brawl scene, getting a job and working for a few weeks is like getting first place at several tournies. <_< WHICH MEANS MELEE IS BETTER!