Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[SmashAura4]

I believe the answer is right in your post. Noob players use noob strategies. It's not impossible to loose to a noob, but then it's not likely a noob will win either. If they keep using those horrible little strategies, it's up to us to break them out of their habits and cure them of their noobness.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Or they could all play Melee.

 

[Iron Thorn]

...Did anyone read the full thing? Like the last part that made mention that it was all sarcasm. Do I have to add [sarcasm] [end sarcasm] to my post. I think I will add that to the things I have learned on Smashboards thread since the reaction was quite amusing.

I fail to see how noobs can win. It seems Azen, Forte, Futile, M2K, Cort, Overswarm, and PC chris are winning pretty consecutively. If the definition is as Scar, "an innate property to allow the best to win." then the best are winning and thus Brawl is competitive.

Lots of games have noob strategies, the good players are the ones that can beat the higher level strategies and the good players.

In Soul Caliber two I had a friend who practiced the techs and combos all of the time. He was the best at his college campus. I picked Talim and button Mashed for consecutive victories. I had a very basic idea of the button config and I knew a few combos I could do. That was it. It seems like anyone who loses to a strategy like that should just quit and find a new game?

There was a joke I saw somewhere about the three strategies for a fighting game.
The Rock-Blocking until time runs out.
The specialist-Using the same unstoppable move over and over again
Button masher-Hitting all of the buttons in rapid succession in hopes of something cool happening.

I believe that was VGCats. VGCats owns, by the way.

I lose a lot, which I accept is because I don't really use any advanced ATs or even have much of a strategy. My playstyle is "improvisational", which is a nice way of saying "I pretty much BS my way through matches". But I'm having fun, so whatever man.

And Kosuke, the problem there is that THERE IS NO ONLINE MELEE.

 

[arrowhead]

And Kosuke, the problem there is that THERE IS NO ONLINE MELEE.

we almost got that. it was either online melee or brawl. too bad they got sakurai to make brawl

 

[PredictablyStubborn]

HAHAHAHA, 5000 replies.

And you know why?

Because it's true. Brawl disappoints. If it weren't true, then people wouldn't be making topics like these. If it weren't true, then people wouldn't be arguing so pro-brawl all the time because it would be accepted fact.


Okay, let me share some light here:
Good competitive scenes develop from good games that are fun to play competitively with only the BASICS.

ex.: Street Fighter 3's competitive scene is insane and enjoyable with AND without the ATs/development/combos/parlor tricks, etc... The game is fun JUST knowing how to block, do certain attacks, grab, and overhead attack. It's exciting EVEN without combos.

Why? Because the BASIC GAMEPLAY makes up the game. The game will be rooted on the basics, ALWAYS.


That's what makes Brawl so HOPELESS right now.
A basic Brawl match is a hell of a LOT less exciting than a basic Melee match (no combos, slowness, all the stuff we whine about).
And when i say basic, I don't mean "how you would play if you just picked up teh game for the first time in your life." I really mean "knowing how to play, playing really well, not knowing anything else aside from the basic way the game should be played."


All you people trying to "make brawl funner" are going to fail. You'll never change the slow paced, no combo, frustrating and dodging frenzy which is brawl.

Do you remember Melee? Do you remember playing as Sheik, and doing an intutiive combo along the lines of "tilt, dash attack, fair, air needle"? It was so EXCITING wasn't it? and that was just the BASIC gameplay. You pulled that one off, along with many other combos, completely intuitively.

Whats the most exciting thing about a BASIC Brawl match right now? Realize that anything "fun" about a basic brawl is really crap compared to the things you'd find in a street fighter match or tekken match. No more intuitive offensive gameplay, no more excitement. The funnest thing about brawl right now is randomly is landing a hard hit or your opponents accidently getting combod.. Realize that you can do this in all other fighting games.

So girls and guys, if you are all "UGGH" about brawl, expect to "UGH" even more. ATs won't make it better unless it's as crazy as wavedashing and dash dancing was in Melee (the simple movement buff/feint completely revolutionized basic gameplay, rare for an AT to do for most fighting games where basics stay the same).

But, however, if you really realy DO find a Basic Brawl match played competitively fun, then you're really in for a treat in the future.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Oh yes, I'm sure online Brawl is the answer to everyone's problems.

 

[LOL_Master]

i mean, wowzors, the online in brawl...man what a BREAKTHROUGH

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

LOL_Master why did you quit toS

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snip.

Fun is subjective.

 

[metalmonstar]

In Melee you could tell how good a player was by looking at tournament results. People who placed even in the top 10% of national tournaments were always really good players. Obviously the best player will win most of the time regardless of how bad the game is, don't expect marthlord233 to beat Azen in Brawl just because Brawl isn't a good competitive game. However, players who are just good can beat people the pros because Brawl doesn't have a big skill gap.

Let's say an average Melee player went up against Azen. Azen would four stock the poor guy twice in a row if he wanted to, and he could do it with most of the cast. Now let's say Azen goes up against the same guy in Brawl, chances are the games would be closer and (if the average player plays a good character) Azen wouldn't even be able to win with more than half the cast. Hell, the pros in Melee completely destroy good players because of how much better they are. Brawl stops the best players from showing their full potential and lets bad players think they don't suck. I shouldn't be able to repeatedly push the B button with metaknight while aiming the gray stick at my opponent and take off a stock. That's bad.

Didn't Azen win a tournament with Ike? That either says something about Ike or Azen, and I am pretty sure it doesn't say much about Ike. To me winning with Ike against a metaknight is like Roy beating marth in Melee, if not harder.

Also I believe I have seen some videos of Sliq two stocking people with Ganon. I have also seen a couple videos where Overswarm has a pretty comfortable lead.

 

[Skler]

Azen won like, the first tournament ever with Ike. The game had hardly been out, now that it's been out for a few months over half the characters no longer stand a chance to win a tournament.

Sliq probably two stocks people who are bad or use bad characters with ganon. He's amazing at the game and was amazing in melee, but his skill doesn't matter as much because of his character. Overswarm gets in a comfortable lead if he's playing somebody who is bad or uses bad characters. Watch his matches against competent players who use a good character. M2k ***** 95% of Melee players, this is because Melee lets you improve. Most Brawl games are either 2 or 1 stock games because skill gaps are so non-existent and the character select screen is so important.

 

[RDK]

Sliq doesn't use Ganon for serious matches. When his tournament placing is on the line, he's not gonna whip out Ganon and 2-stock people. He uses good characters (or at least ones better than Ganon) like anyone else. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Azen won a Melee tournament in 2002 with Link.

Just saying :D

 

[Zankoku]

Sliq doesn't use Ganon for serious matches.

Actually, he does. He mains Ganon and seconds Bowser. And he sticks with those characters even in tournament play.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yeah but Sliqs amazing(and you can too)

And you'll never hear him say this game is in any way shape or form balanced.

 

[RDK]

Azen won a Melee tournament in 2002 with Link.

Just saying :D

Melee >>>>>> Brawl. So nyah.

Point being, you'll never see a Link winning a sizeable Brawl tournament. EVER. Unless every contestant was Azen, and he sandbagged every match.

Actually, he does. He mains Ganon and seconds Bowser. And he sticks with those characters even in tournament play.

True. He mains Ganon, but my point was that he doesn't 2-stock competent players with Ganon. It just doesn't happen.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Melee >>>>>> Brawl. So nyah.

Point being, you'll never see a Link winning a sizeable Brawl tournament. EVER. Unless every contestant was Azen, and he sandbagged every match.

Let's assume Ike is mid-tier.

Azen wins an early Melee tournament with Mid-tier Link
Azen wins an early Brawl tournament with Mid-tier Ike
It is nearly impossible to win a Melee tournament using a bottom tier character
It is nearly impossible to win a Brawl tournament using a bottom tier character (which Link pretty much is)

:D

EDIT: I'd like to point out that sleek is too nice with the down airs

 

[RDK]

Let's assume Ike is mid-tier.

Azen wins an early Melee tournament with Mid-tier Link
Azen wins an early Brawl tournament with Mid-tier Ike
It is nearly impossible to win a Melee tournament using a bottom tier character
It is nearly impossible to win a Brawl tournament using a bottom tier character (which Link pretty much is)

:D

Mid tiers aside, in Brawl you can lose to any Joe Blow who uses Snake half competently. In Melee, if any Joe Blow picks up Fox and expects to do well with him, he'll get buttraped.

Skill gap in Melee >>>>>>>>>>>>> *extender* > Brawl

Edit: Yes, Sliq is good with tech-chasing the d-air. Although it's not even tech-chasing; it's simple prediction. That's how watered down Brawl is.

 

[arrowhead]

Let's assume Ike is mid-tier.

Azen wins an early Melee tournament with Mid-tier Link
Azen wins an early Brawl tournament with Mid-tier Ike
It is nearly impossible to win a Melee tournament using a bottom tier character
It is nearly impossible to win a Brawl tournament using a bottom tier character (which Link pretty much is)

It is nearly impossible to win a Brawl tournament using a mid tier character
It is entirely possible to win a Melee tournament using a mid tier character

 

[ShadowLink84]

Link was low tier by the end of 2007 I think.

And he could still win a tournament.

Mid tier characters could win a tournament in brawl.
Its just more difficult than before. >.<

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Mid tiers aside, in Brawl you can lose to any Joe Blow who uses Snake half competently. In Melee, if any Joe Blow picks up Fox and expects to do well with him, he'll get buttraped.

I don't understand the late Melee early Brawl metagame comparisons. It'd be a better comparison if you used Melee's early metagame and replaced fox with sheik. I'll admit that even that comparison has Snake as the easier to play character, but it's not as ridiculous as the comparison you have.

It is nearly impossible to win a Brawl tournament using a mid tier character
It is entirely possible to win a Melee tournament using a mid tier character

The only mid-tier characters winning late decent-sized Melee tournaments were played by some of the best players in the game (Mango, Azen, ChuDat, HugS, etc), anything else was chaingrabbed by Sheik (And that's not mentioning the fact that the tier list is severely outdated and the characters they won with would barely be considered mid tier by today's standard)
The only mid-tier characters winning decent-sized Brawl tournaments are being played by one of the best players in the game (Azen), everyone else is using Snake/Metaknight

Link was low tier by the end of 2007 I think.
Mid 2006, actually
And he could still win a tournament.

Mid tier characters could win a tournament in brawl.
Its just more difficult than before. >.<

And no, Link wouldn't win any major melee tournaments, not by a longshot. Unless you were Azen, and even then...

I'm going to stop posting seriously in this thread (lest I be corrected in Street Fighter 1 priority again ), because I actually enjoy Brawl. I have lots of fun playing it competitively. My value of competitive play is how much fun I have playing it competitively, because if it wasn't fun for me, I wouldn't bother. Fun is subjective, and I'd be incredibly dumb to attempt to convince any of you that you're having fun playing it when you're not. Arguing about fun has no place in a thread like this (or anywhere, but that doesn't seem to stop fanboys all across the internet), so I'll take my leave.

I play games ignoring what other people think of the game, as long as I have fun playing it. I hope you all do the same :D

Lastly, wise words from a wise old sage who alternatively goes by the name "Judge Judy"
Melee is fast-paced bull****
Brawl is slow-paced bull****

 

[Skler]

And no, Link wouldn't win any major melee tournaments, not by a longshot. Unless you were Azen, and even then...

I guess you could say It's a long shot.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I guess you could say It's a long shot.

BOOOOOOO

Lousy pun.

 

[Eggm]

I don't understand the late Melee early Brawl metagame comparisons. It'd be a better comparison if you used Melee's early metagame and replaced fox with sheik. I'll admit that even that comparison has Snake as the easier to play character, but it's not as ridiculous as the comparison you have.



The only mid-tier characters winning late decent-sized Melee tournaments were played by some of the best players in the game (Mango, Azen, ChuDat, HugS, etc), anything else was chaingrabbed by Sheik (And that's not mentioning the fact that the tier list is severely outdated and the characters they won with would barely be considered mid tier by today's standard)
The only mid-tier characters winning decent-sized Brawl tournaments are being played by one of the best players in the game (Azen), everyone else is using Snake/Metaknight



And no, Link wouldn't win any major melee tournaments, not by a longshot. Unless you were Azen, and even then...

I'm going to stop posting seriously in this thread (lest I be corrected in Street Fighter 1 priority again ), because I actually enjoy Brawl. I have lots of fun playing it competitively. My value of competitive play is how much fun I have playing it competitively, because if it wasn't fun for me, I wouldn't bother. Fun is subjective, and I'd be incredibly dumb to attempt to convince any of you that you're having fun playing it when you're not. Arguing about fun has no place in a thread like this (or anywhere, but that doesn't seem to stop fanboys all across the internet), so I'll take my leave.

I play games ignoring what other people think of the game, as long as I have fun playing it. I hope you all do the same :D

Lastly, wise words from a wise old sage who alternatively goes by the name "Judge Judy"
Melee is fast-paced bull****
Brawl is slow-paced bull****

Hugs won that like 150 man cali tourney right after pound 3. not only that but ka-master was 2nd with all mid tier. Under them was like 100 good spacies in the results lol. Like Zhu/tang/others. I garuntee you captain falcon won a major tournament or two hes mid tier. Jiggs/ic's have won major tourneys. Mid tier had a chance if the player was a better player. 90% of the time it was determined by the better player not the tier. yeah, theres worthless characters, but they are in every game.

 

[Scar]

Also I believe I have seen some videos of Sliq two stocking people with Ganon. I have also seen a couple videos where Overswarm has a pretty comfortable lead.

Yeah, and when I said "there are no combos" 4 months ago people said "I have seen some videos of combos." It doesn't change the fact that by and large there are no combos. In much the same way, Melee pros 3 and 4 stock average player regularly, every match. You will never see an average player take a single match off M2K, not on his worst day.

I understand that things happen sometimes in Brawl and you've seen it and there are vids somewhere. But sometimes is not every time, and sometimes it should be every time. Pros should beat average players every time.

 

[Clai]

Edit: Yes, Sliq is good with tech-chasing the d-air. Although it's not even tech-chasing; it's simple prediction. That's how watered down Brawl is.

I don't understand how Melee's tech-chasing is any different from Brawl's tech-chasing, other than it being faster. All the options are the same in both games in that regard.

I also don't know where the line of "competancy" is drawn, but I'd like to see a "competant" player get three-stocked by a Pichu player, it's probably just as likely as a 'competant" Brawl player getting two-stocked by Ganondorf. Then again, at this moment, Melee's line of "competancy" is so far above Brawl's line that it's laughable. Yes, it's part due to Melee's steeper learning curve and superior gameplay, but it's also due to the time spent in developing the gameplay (Yes, I'm using the time card. No matter which way we put this argument, time is going to be a factor).

Melee has loads of instructional videos, inspirational matches, and even M2K's list of every frame associated with every attack in the game to teach players to become competant. Brawl can't even have a thread on useful techniques without some Melee vet coming in and bashing our techniques for being nothing close to what Sakurai took out of Melee. I think we've all matured to the point that we know that there will never be anything universally useful like wavedashing or L-cancelling; but we're doing what we can to make Brawl's gameplay as deep as we can make it. Strategies come with knowledge, and it's only a matter of brainpower until true "competant" players rise far and beyond those who still think camping is the only strategy.

And about this Melee mid-tier talking: Melee hasn't had a new tier list since 2006; and the current top/high tier consists of five characters. Current mid-tier characters like Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, all are competitive enough with the top/high tier list to be considered "high tier" at this point. Brawl doesn't even have a tier list yet, but the number of Brawl characters aiming for "high-tier" status can probably compete with the same intensity with each other as Melee's high-tier/middle-tier competition.

 

[ShadowLink84]

OH yeah my mistake Dazwa.

However my point is that in melee even a low tier character had some competitive ability and could win a large tournament even though the chances were slim.
however now that Link is again low tier the chances of him winning a large tournament are zero.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I guess you could say It's a long shot.

Needs more Sklering.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I guess you could say It's a long shot.

Yay, you got the pun I was going for. Good ****.

 

[RDK]

Then I must be a n00b for disagreeing.

I'd love to hear your theory on why you think Brawl is more / as competitive as Melee. I'm not being patronizing at all; I really do want to know your opinion on the topic.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I guess you could say It's a long shot.

If I had seen the previous discussion before this, I would have obviously seen this coming. But alas, I didnt >_>.

 

[Skler]

I love to shamelessly plug my video wherever and whenever I can. Thank you for setting me up Sir Dazwa of the Maine tribe.

On the subject of competent players, a competent player is decent. They use the right strategies but aren't an exceptional player. A competent player is a decent player with decent knowledge of the game.

 

[globiumz]

I live in Europe and I'm really disappointed. No hitstun. Floaty gravity. Overpowered defense. CPU are kicking my *** now!

When I successfully manage to approach that annoying shield goes up extremely fast, my attack gets blocked and very, very often I get counter attacked. Much more often than Melee, where attacking was the smart thing to do, instead of defense spamming, camping and projectil spamming.

If I do manage to land a hit and start a combo, it's still kinda hard due to the weird *** gravity and infinite air dodging. I know Sakurai wanted to kill competition, but is there nothing I can do? No exploits, no glitches, no ATs, no nothing?

I mained Yoshi in Melee and was pretty good with him, but now I just suck. I got the game a few days ago, so I will adjust in time? I honestly feel pathetic for lossing to CPUs.....

 

[LOL_Master]

relying on tiers is a terrible disease

 

[The Slayer]

Though, I don't think the dude was really relying on him. Yoshi isn't for him now, as much as it did for Samus for me (however, I'm not too bad with her myself, but I hate to give myself credit when it's not due).

 

[LavisFiend]

You can't really blame yourself for losing to computers....

....

....


....Actually, you CAN, considering how I am using Ganondorf now and am having no trouble and he is utter balls now compared to his Melee counterpart....

But the thing is, the AI is much more refined than in melee in terms of the Brawl CPU taking advantage of the fact you are incapable of approaching them as you would a melee CPU and the fact that they do more than just spam smash attacks. You know, they grab edges now, sometimes spike you, Starfox characters use their reflector a lot more...

Oh, and basically flawless perfect shielding.

The comp is just smarter this go around. You will get used to it as many of us already have.

 

[thesage]

melee had the worst comps out of all three games. The 64 comps knew how to combo....

 

[thumbswayup]

Kage's Ganondorf beat Plank's Sheik in a tournament set last month in Melee.

That is all.

 

[LOL_Master]

in terms of random amazing stuff, no, melee comps **** in accidental amazingness

ie----lvl 9 fox goes to the edge once i was off stage, i sweet spot my upb with marth, the fox lightshields then nairs...yeah

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Kage's Ganondorf beat Plank's Sheik in a tournament set last month in Melee.

That is all.

I was there for that.

Kage is amazing. That is all.

Smooth Criminal