thumbswayup
Smash Master
I wish I could have been there for that.
**** Brawl.
**** Brawl.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
- Status
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
BTW Thumbs, I LOVE the anime your Avatar is from (Code Geauss/Lelouch of the rebellion IIRC)
I don't play in tournaments and I'm not a pro. However, I and my friends still like neutral matches on Smashville sometimes. I'm just worried that it's going to end in endless camping and spamming, which might also happen to tournies...
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Yeah, Code Geass is pretty good. I haven't started the second season yet cause I'm waiting for it to finish first. I don't like waiting a week to see one ep.
-Wolfy-
Smash Champion
I'll look it up but there's a video of a melee comp. samus performing a superwavedash.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
There's no ****ing way...
Samochan
Smash Master
It's true, me and my buddy saw our cpu samus performing one as well, seemingly out of nowhere too. We weren't even near that samus but there it goes, performing a small swd. <_<
I was at a random n00b tournament once and some kid was just pressing everything at once and he wavedashed a few times, I went O,O!!!
And yet it took us 4(?) years to find it
I've had a bunch of random lvl 9's wavedash on me, although mostly just on slanted ground(air dodge completely backwards) but the best had to be when I was recovering with Falcon one time and a Fox tried to Dair me. He missed, Up B, Got it by my Up B, teched off the stage, shine spiked me, then Up B'd back to the stage.
Wavedashing was discovered relatively early. I think you're talking about it taking 4 years before people realized its applications.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
wavedashing was discovered when the game testers were testing it, they didn't give a F that you can slide a little bit
-Wolfy-
Smash Champion
anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but isn't wavedashing's birth attributed to triangle jumping producing a sliding effect on the wing at corneria? I know in the very least triangle jumping was the precursor to wavedashing.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
the game testers were too noob to do frame perfect wavedashes and didn't know its effectiveness
While we're on the topic of lvl. 9 CPU's doing amazingly accidental things, let us not forget any lvl. 9's ability to grab (or shine) you out of your recovery, or basically any ridiculous situation.
Also, on the rare occasions that I do play CPU's, lvl. 9 Fox's are probably the most notorious for doing amazing things on accident, like downthrow to shine or upthrow to rising sex kick, and then dropping back down on top of you into a d-air or f-air. When it happens to you, it's like "WTF?".
Also, on the rare occasions that I do play CPU's, lvl. 9 Fox's are probably the most notorious for doing amazing things on accident, like downthrow to shine or upthrow to rising sex kick, and then dropping back down on top of you into a d-air or f-air. When it happens to you, it's like "WTF?".
Mighty_Hat
Smash Rookie
Please at least familiarize yourself with this first post or what has been said in the last page before throwing in an aggressive opinion.
DISCLAIMER
There are plenty of threads in Brawl General Discussion where you can go and rant and rave and make no sense and everyone will join you. This thread is for INTELLIGENT discussion. If you want to whine, please go do so somewhere else.
If you want to say "rofl u guyz r arguin im just gon play brawl," or "This argument is irrelevant" or whatever it is that clearly will not benefit the conversation, you are not alone, people agree with you, but this is the wrong thread. Please post it somewhere else!
Disobeying those rules from now on will put you on the List of People Scar Thinks are Stupid. I know most of you don't care, if you're going to be a moron you're going to do it and not worry about it. For all of those who have some semblance of self-respect, try not to earn your place at the bottom of the thread.
Finally, I do not have time to respond to everyone, and when I do, rest assured, everything I say will be coherent and true, unless I say specifically that I'm not sure about something. Unfortunately I can't give examples of everything, but try to trust me, and if you want examples perhaps Brookman will give them to you.
If you think there is something wrong with my logic then absolutely challenge me on it, but if I say, "Brawl is lacking in combos," don't tell me about your 0-70% with Metaknight vs your friend's Ganon. Interpret those words instead as "few characters have reliable combos."
Things Scar is NOT saying that people consistently read somehow
-Melee players should consistently win in Brawl as much as they did in Melee
-Advanced techs make Melee deep
-I hate Brawl
-*whine whine whine*
Introduction
As you know or will soon find out, I firmly believe that Melee is a more competitive game than Brawl. Also better competitive, but that's neither here nor there. This thread is not here to argue that point (though I will do that from time to time). My main goal is to focus on the reasons for why opposing sides can't seem to agree on anything ever.
Hating on Brawl
An important preliminary point to make is that MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT SAYING THAT BRAWL IS BAD.
Most people who are "anti-Brawl" play it and have fun with it.
Most people who are "anti-Brawl" and good at Melee are also good at Brawl.
No one who is "anti-Brawl" is telling you not to play the game.
What we are arguing is that Brawl is a less competitive game than Melee. A big reason for why this debate gets nowhere is because we have failed to define the word "competitive."
Competitive vs Competition
If you look it up in a dictionary, you will find a very different definition. Sometimes the dictionary is not the place to go. Words are clumsy tools we use to try to convey thoughts. We must define the word on our own.
The definition of competitive that has received the most support is the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently. This yields my mantra, that which I repeat over and over to prove my point.
Those who should win will win.
It is necessary to point out that this has nothing to do with the competition you will face. There is a big difference between competition and competitiveness.
Also, competitiveness is a scale. By definition, someone better than someone else at anything will on average win more. Competitiveness can only be talked about relatively, since everything that isn't completely random has a certain amount of competitiveness.
Brawl is competitive to a degree, but pro-Melee debaters will argue that on average, better players will win more consistently in Melee than equally skilled competitors in Brawl.
Also we will argue that contests are settled with dominance in Melee between players of NEARLY EQUAL SKILL! In Brawl, win/loss ratios are much closer to the 50% mark unless it's between two players of vastly different skill levels.
Important consequences:
The argument "I think any game can be competitive" is no longer valid. It is clear that you are simply saying, "people can compete in any game." It is also clear that this statement points out plain fact.
The problem is that you are confusing competition with competitiveness. Shallow games are not competitive, but you can find competition in them.
Leave Brawl Alone: Brawl Supporters Never Make Any Good Points Ever
During many arguments, Brawl supporters frequently use blanket statements closing the door to all further debate.
I have noticed that most Brawl debates start out with someone pointing out a reason for why they thing Brawl is limiting or inferior. Then someone will say "stop hating on Brawl." This is extremely irritating for the initial poster because all of their points were ignored for a blanket statement that's overused.
The biggest point Brawl advocates make is not really a point at all. It's usually just "Stop hating" or "Stop bashing" or, as I like to put it, "Leave Brawl alone." It feels like we are bullies picking on Brawl because it's puny and can't stand up for itself. You guys just don't like seeing this and tell us to stop.
You need to give us reasons for WHY we should stop and WHY we're wrong!
Points Already Addressed
Upcoming is a list of other statements that translate into "Leave Brawl alone." They have been covered time and time again, but for some reason a Brawl supporter will bring these things up randomly in debates.
This is the argument and appropriate counter argument. If anyone wants to address any of these and further the discussion, please feel free to. At this point, these discussions seem to have reached a clear and obvious end.
1) It's not Melee 2.0, you can't compare the two games
This is silly. We are debating "which game is more competitive," so we must compare the two games. Arguing that this is irrelevant doesn't make any sense, since it's clearly important to competitive Melee players. Our feelings are important, too.
This may be a valid argument elsewhere, but IT IS NOT VALID IN THE CONTEXT OF MELEE VS BRAWL.
2) Brawl has only been out for a short amount of time, how long did it take to find Melee ATs
This would be relevant if the two games experienced similar launches. They didn't. Melee had a few SSB64 players who knew about z-cancelling, and there was no central intelligence like SmashBoards to really unite the community and combine everyone's knowledge.
Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse. There were even players doing this in early February, immediately after the game was released in Japan. So far, nothing of note has advanced the metagame to anything to be considered remarkable.
Final Remarks
The point of this thread is mainly to further the discussion of which game is more competitive, Brawl or Melee. I really want us to all be talking about the same things when we debate, and I strongly feel that we are all talking about different things.
==EDIT==
It has been brought to my attention that about half of the people on the pro-Brawl side of the community believe that at this point, Melee is a more competitive game. I did not know this, so perhaps this thread is for the other half of the pro-Brawl community.
=======
Also since I don't argue on the pro-Brawl side of things, I really don't know what pro-Melee players get hung up on and when we argue things that aren't correct. If anyone wants to contribute something they think pro-Melee players are thick-headed about please do and we'll try to figure out why they're wrong and don't realize it.
I hope that this will shed light on a few different issues, but most importantly, the difference between competitiveness and competition. I hope we can work with and refine this definition until we feel that it becomes what we are actually trying to debate.
IMPORTANT POSTS - TL;DR
These posts are good, and the discussion after them is worth reading if you care to follow.
Legend:
** = Real Important
- = Real Bad
Card: What exactly do you want?
Scar: Brawl's lack of a punishment game, Comboing in Melee is difficult!
E.G.G.M.A.N.: Why it's not too early to have this debate
AlphaZealot: The History of Melee Advanced Techs (Missing the point IMO)
**Cactuar: Fundamentals of Fighters and why Brawl doesn't fit
**almightypancake: Thinking outside the box, Why there is hope
Scar: Extreme example of a game that has competition but is not competitive
**almightypancake: Important Consequences of Brawl's Current Metagame
Tipzntrix: An opinion on why Brawl is just as competitive as Melee
Scar: Gambling vs Competing, Why I disagree with Tipzntrix
-Dogenzaka: Why you should never completely ignore the original post
Replacement100: An important question about the OP and response
Wiseguy: Why the OP is nothing special and otherwise wrong and response
almightypancake: Why this thread is NOT stupid and pointless
**TehChocobo: Please Have a Nice Tone in this thread
**JesiahTEG: Why Technical Ability Should Be Rewarded
TheKneeOfJustice: Brawl as a game Lacking Consequences
Mew2King: Specific Examples for Why Brawl Requires Luck
FaceLoran: On skill vs other factors
Cactuar: High-level Brawl play, I am a brilliant player
SynikaL: The ultimate compromise and conclusion
Unintelligent Posters: People Scar Thinks are Stupid
Dogenzaka: For providing Webster's definition of "Competition"
B-Run: For blatantly ignoring the Disclaimer in this post.
LavisFiend: For persistently contributing nothing and ignoring the disclaimer.
NekoBoy085: For speaking with authority while demonstrating no knowledge whatsoever
That is soo long!!!!! harg I dont even want sombody to say that to me dont ask me to read it.
Also like the Sam Jackson gif. Best part of your thread
If you don't plan on reading it, don't post.
You're an idiot.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
mighty hat is like a lvl 1 cpu
thumbswayup
Smash Master
I **** Snakes with Diddy.
Monkeys usually do fight well against the indigenous reptiles. However, not ones armed with explosives and "magic" arms and legs that can touch beyond their reach.
I think that you are actually being *****, but denial has killed your memory.
I think that you are actually being *****, but denial has killed your memory.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Although your statement rings unbelievably true, the fact is I do beat Snakes. I have enough experience playing them. I've beaten G-reg's Snake in a money match before (I love his Snake), and he's arguably the best Snake in MD/VA. I haven't played Chillin's yet, but I've seen it enough and I know I'd do well against it.
Diddy Kong does well against Snake for so many reasons. Obviously the bannanas mess Snake up, but it's easy sailing once you get him off the edge. His recovery is very easy for Diddy to spike or f air him over and over. Did you know if he diddy humps Snake while on his copter and he breaks free, he can't up b again? Pretty sick ****. Snake is slow, glide tossing just ***** him.
If you want to talk about creatures that **** monkeys, I'd direct you to the vile mutation with the killer up b.
Diddy Kong does well against Snake for so many reasons. Obviously the bannanas mess Snake up, but it's easy sailing once you get him off the edge. His recovery is very easy for Diddy to spike or f air him over and over. Did you know if he diddy humps Snake while on his copter and he breaks free, he can't up b again? Pretty sick ****. Snake is slow, glide tossing just ***** him.
If you want to talk about creatures that **** monkeys, I'd direct you to the vile mutation with the killer up b.
Ah, you must mean Lucario!
Clai
Smash Lord
Level 9 Foxes downthrow to shine all the time.
But speaking of grabbing out of your recovery, let's not forget that Fox can down-throw you off the stage from the edge, which is, if you don't see it coming and meteor-cancel it, insta-death.
Brawl computers don't do anything amazing, except they do this weird movement thing which is similar to a Melee character wavedashing back and running foward, so it looks like you're running, but you're not really moving anywhere. It makes me want to wavedash so I can do that type of mindgame.
@Ankoku: I know the anime where your signature comes from, and it freaks me out. Comparing Peach to Haruhi Suzeimeya is nothing short of scary.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
The hell...?
vegeta9000
Smash Cadet
It's not that you cant combo in brawl, its that you just arent good enough too!
vegeta9000
Smash Cadet
no im just refering to the people who say brawl is bad because you cant combo which is acutally a false statement
arrowhead
Smash Ace
that's because we assume the players aren't completely horrible while you speak of past experiences with your friends
curiousthoughtsbear
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2007
- Messages
- 159
Nah brawl is bad cause there are no fast comboes and little to no flair/sweetness.
No Sweetness = a boring game
Note that a game may still be addictive and yet boring. The most prominent example of that is none other than,
WOW
No Sweetness = a boring game
Note that a game may still be addictive and yet boring. The most prominent example of that is none other than,
WOW
arrowhead
Smash Ace
anything addictive has to reward you with some type of satisfaction. and if something is gratifying, it isn't boring
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Keep in mind - when refering to combos, many people on the melee side are unimpressed with the last ten seconds of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwHIQBTaTp4
Or I might be thinking of the Brawl v. Melee Balance guys in the tactical discussion. I often flip between the two.
BIG C
Smash Master
im not unimpressed with it it is quite impressive but just because lucario can do massive combo's doesn't mean all the characters can. and plus i dun even know if that would work if yoru held back at the first hit.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
You're probably right. Actually, I've heard many criticisms of this video. Here, they were about how Lucario is awesome compared to other characters at this, and really can't be compared to other characters as he is simply the best at combos; whereas in the melee v. Brawl balance debate they simply insulted the D3 users intelligence and said it wasn't a real combo.
I say this because I found the fact the responces to this were dramatically different from board to board.
Back on topic, Lucario is a beast, and while there are combos in Brawl, there just aren't as many as melee, as any remaining Jigglypuff will tell you.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
tired of wearing the same ****ing tie to work, ****
I know what you mean. I feel ripped off...they give us the ability to bair twice in one short hop and then they screw our combos. What I would give for SHDB in melee...
I think the root of this lack of competitiveness in Brawl is the divide, there's either no combos at all for some characters, or really crappily broken combos/CGs for others. Also going back to the original post and the "those who should win will win", I'd say that the main reason this is not as true in Brawl is because somewhere down the line it got changed to "those who can perform [insert one of the paltry few 'power combos' in Brawl here] well will win". ICs CGing/D3 infinite standing CGing/ridiculous MK combos/release-grabbing come to mind, and probably a few more I'm forgetting.
- Status