Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[Deleted member]

When I face Shiek,

say at 0% I down-throw, i stomp when they tech and regrab, should I bother upthrowing if there is no platform above or just down-throw again?

i been trying to up-throw around 20 % and been getting sort of crappy results when I try to follow it up with a quick aerial, like getting Shiek's leg or abdomen in my face when Shiek back airs.

Just asking to see if there is a good FOLLOWUP to up-throwing Shiek at 20, I'm very bad at that matchup

 

[BigD!!!]

yeah but back onto the original actual argument, if you have a chance to end a combo in a knee, take it unless youre showing off for the ladies present

and since we all know there probably arent any ladies present, this shouldnt be a problem

all i do when i fight most falcons these days is hold down cause everybody is hooked on doing extra uairs and then i live way too long

one time nes noob did like 15 multiple uair combos to me in a set but i kept living cause he wouldnt knee me, and then i won the set, sup nes noob

dont bring up the next time you played me though

oh and s2j you can sort of cg sheik with uthrow at 20 if they DI wrong but i would still dthrow until like 40-50ish%, you can cg that if they dont DI away and if they do its a tech chase, no risk of getting hit out of your own throw that way

 

[Meneks]

Falcon vs falco?
This match up confuses me and is nothing like playing against fox My powershielding isnt what it used to be and I suck at avoiding lasers so I suck at approaching.
Any other tactics for playing against falco would be great such as what do falco players usually fall for and other stuff like that.. I know this match up has been brought up alot but i'd appreciate it if someone would be able to supply me with updated info on the matchup

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks BigD!!!


I was also wondering, does ground up-b catch a gay,ducking jigglypuff?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

wtf? in my experience knee trades or beats everything, especially if you space it (sweetspot hitbox is MUCH bigger than his knee) i've seen sh back knee beat approaches such as fox's nair very much like ganon's fair would (minus the godly range)

 

[Afro_Chris]

Falcon vs falco?
This match up confuses me and is nothing like playing against fox My powershielding isnt what it used to be and I suck at avoiding lasers so I suck at approaching.
Any other tactics for playing against falco would be great such as what do falco players usually fall for and other stuff like that.. I know this match up has been brought up alot but i'd appreciate it if someone would be able to supply me with updated info on the matchup

wat will help u alot is the fact that if u short hop nair right when falco lazers, falcons nair will go above it, and if they start seeing u do this alot and they start shooting high forward b goes under the lazers, also nair is like super good in that match up so this adds alot to approaching falco, afterwards just grab down throw and tech chase its the best u can do, to win the match up learn to like 0-death from a grab/techcase

hope this helps

I was also wondering, does ground up-b catch a gay,ducking jigglypuff?

sadly no

 

[Strong Badam]

im 99.9% sure you cant roll buffer out of a waveshine unless the fox messes up

pretty sure darkrain SDI's shines if he's getting waveshined and then buffers a roll. it's kind of sad, really, when he does it to you.....

 

[Mokumo]

When I face Shiek,

say at 0% I down-throw, i stomp when they tech and regrab, should I bother upthrowing if there is no platform above or just down-throw again?

i been trying to up-throw around 20 % and been getting sort of crappy results when I try to follow it up with a quick aerial, like getting Shiek's leg or abdomen in my face when Shiek back airs.

Just asking to see if there is a good FOLLOWUP to up-throwing Shiek at 20, I'm very bad at that matchup

im pretty sure you can chaingrab sheik at 0% with no DI with an up throw. works for me every time. i dont think it works after 5% tho

 

[JPOBS]

pretty sure darkrain SDI's shines if he's getting waveshined and then buffers a roll. it's kind of sad, really, when he does it to you.....

SDI'ing the shines in which direction?

i know i've personally cc/sdi shines in the past where i could get hit on the wrong side of the shine and get waveshined in the other direction. Its really wierd but i've only done it a few times and it could have been for any number of variables like the fox missing the optimal window for waveshining by a few frames giving me the chance to get out.

like i said im pretty sure that if the fox is doing it right there's nothing you can do till he lets you go. someone get magnus up in here

 

[BigD!!!]

if you smash DI away and buffer a roll generally you will get out of fox's waveshine

fox could still get you probably, but he'll have a very short time to react to your altered trajectory and wont ever really be able to do it

but smash DIing shines is pretty hard

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if you crouch cancel the shine and buffer a roll you will get out too.

 

[Mokumo]

should you roll away every time or mix it up after the waveshine? i usually get ***** when i roll into someone.

also, what do you guys think about nairing out of shield instead of shield grabbing? i was doing it against my friend's falco the other day and it was working well, except not against his aerials when he would just shine me once he landed.

 

[Zephyr]

When I'm playing good falco players, I generally just roll out of shield away from their crazy unbreakable shield pressure because any other options (grab, upsmash, aerial), tends to end with me getting **** combo'd to 80%, which I generally don't enjoy.

 

[P.C. Jona]

someone get magnus up in here

its Magus420 Magus 420 lololol
thats like the tags you gotta write..
if you type it... he will come..

 

[Zephyr]

its Magus420 Magus 420 lololol
thats like the tags you gotta write..
if you type it... he will come..

You, you're from the 60's...there's no place for you here in the future. Get back while you still can!

Back to the 60's...

 

[Strong Badam]

SDI'ing the shines in which direction?

i know i've personally cc/sdi shines in the past where i could get hit on the wrong side of the shine and get waveshined in the other direction. Its really wierd but i've only done it a few times and it could have been for any number of variables like the fox missing the optimal window for waveshining by a few frames giving me the chance to get out.

like i said im pretty sure that if the fox is doing it right there's nothing you can do till he lets you go. someone get magnus up in here

he DI's away.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

there are a few things you can do. you can CC, DI away, DI in, or SDI

there used to be a vid on youtube that showed how far each of them went, but it was REALLY old (pre '06) and i can't find it now....

 

[BigD!!!]

if you dont cc the first shine then you cant cc them after that

i think that goes for all DI's on shine, except smash DIing out

 

[Strong Badam]

you can always start DIing at any time during a waveshine, no matter the type of DI. you can't CC because you can't CC during hitstun, but you can definitely DI during hitstun.

 

[BigD!!!]

well it doesnt matter with falcon anyway cause his trajectory doesnt change hardly at all except on cc

 

[Strong Badam]

distance changes w/ DI :/ trajectory of a shine? what
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdzNzC2ijJE

 

[iamthemicrowave]

in conclusion darkrain is amazing

 

[KAOSTAR]

Against a falco, you have to double jump and fall down with your nair. This usually hits if the falco tries to approach after the lasers. Work on that powershielding cuz that leads to more opportunities.

Downthrow tech chase at lower percents. Punish missed techs on platforms with well timed uair(s), at mid-higher percents you can upthrow fsmash, or upthrow to knee.

REally just dont **** up your edgeguards and you should be aight.

 

[BigD!!!]

yeah thats on a marth, who slides like twice as far as falcon

with falcon CC will cause them to wavedash too far then waveshine you back the other way usually, but any other DI will barely make a difference

notice how in the vid CC made a big difference and the other 3 were pretty close together

 

[Strong Badam]

it'll still send falcon farther than Fox's waveshine, since without DI Falcon goes just the right distance to waveshine if you waveshine perfectly.
try SDIing.
regardless, how else would you explain darkrain being able to roll out of a waveshine against Kels, a very technical Fox?

 

[Meneks]

Wait double jump?
Why double jump when i can just do one full jump if i know where the falco is going to be at?

 

[BigD!!!]

he smash DI'd

or kels messed up, kels plays very fast and seems very technical but in reality makes mistakes all the time

or it was a nair shine, in which case there was no hitstun once darkrain landed on the ground

lots of possibilities, all im saying is that if you just hold away youre not getting away because that would be normal DI as opposed to smash DI and would not change the distance the shine sends you enough

really i wouldnt think it would change the distance at all as it would be holding a direction parallel to the trajectory of the shine, which does nothing as far as DI is concerned

meneks a double jump fastfall is a little faster than a full jump fastfall, but dj fastfall nair is just an ok idea and should be used sparingly

 

[Strong Badam]

i'll do testing if i feel like it....
clearly parallel DI DOES have an effect on shine distance (most likely because a shine's trajectory is actually down+away, as seen in the air), otherwise the video I posted is like massive hax.

i was also referring to specifically Smash DI, since we were talking about what darkrain does to escape being waveshined.
maybe i'll just ask him next time he shows up lol...

 

[BigD!!!]

the video they are probably smash DIing considering they arent taking any action before the shine hits and therefore must hit the direction right as the shine hits them

plus you can kind of see it

and you were not talking about smash DI, because you said you can start holding away at any point during the waveshine

done SON

 

[Meneks]

meneks a double jump fastfall is a little faster than a full jump fastfall, but dj fastfall nair is just an ok idea and should be used sparingly

If thats the case then what would be a better alternative to approach...
And ofcourse I cant dj nair on every stage so what would be good approach methods on lets say...
Yoshis/battle field maybe even stadium?

 

[JPOBS]

yea im willng to bet it was nair shine waveshine combos darkran was rolling out of. tis all i can think of anyway

 

[KAOSTAR]

Wait double jump?
Why double jump when i can just do one full jump if i know where the falco is going to be at?

Im not 100% sure on the jumping thing, but I was told to handle falcos you double jump nair.

I think it has something to do with getting over the lasers. But its worked for me and thats what Ive been seeing people do.

Of course you cant always do that but with the double jump you can be a little more unpredictable on the timing.

well timed raptor boosts can hit on their own, but dont spam.

REally the best option is get inside falco on the offense and then dont let up till you take the stock. repeat 3 times and you should win lol

 

[Strong Badam]

and you were not talking about smash DI, because you said you can start holding away at any point during the waveshine

done SON

err.... hold on a sec here.

if you dont cc the first shine then you cant cc them after that

i think that goes for all DI's on shine

you can always start DIing at any time during a waveshine, no matter the type of DI. you can't CC because you can't CC during hitstun, but you can definitely DI during hitstun.

I'd be really lame and say "done SON" here but I don't really feel like it.

darkrain is visiting KC Labor Day weekend I think so I'll just waveshine him in a friendly (i was waveshining my friend's falcon across Stadium with no real problems last night, so...) and see what he does, or something.

 

[BigD!!!]

smash DI = smashing the stick in the hitlag of the move, not holding the stick

i realized i was incorrect about DIing right or left on shine because that doesnt make any sense based on the properties of DI and shine in the game, the only DI you can do on shine at all would be crouch canceling or smash DI

so so you can start holding away at any point outside of the hitlag of the shine, but it wont do anything

smash DI is a term thrown around way more often than it actually occurs, so generally when i say DI, i'm not talking about smash DI at all because people only really do it on fox's uair and some drill attacks

darkrains really good at the game but he doesnt know any secrets about DI that the rest of us dont

 

[Meneks]

Im not 100% sure on the jumping thing, but I was told to handle falcos you double jump nair.

I think it has something to do with getting over the lasers. But its worked for me and thats what Ive been seeing people do.

Of course you cant always do that but with the double jump you can be a little more unpredictable on the timing.

well timed raptor boosts can hit on their own, but dont spam.

REally the best option is get inside falco on the offense and then dont let up till you take the stock. repeat 3 times and you should win lol

Ill try to implement dj nairs into my playstyle with falcon...
Coming back to the discussion on approaching if kneeing to approach is better then nair would it make more sense to dj knee?

 

[BigD!!!]

if i know i have to get over something and come down to hit them with an aerial i usually double jump to do it

the most common example i can think of is i get around get up attacks with it

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRUKpK5N9Eg#t=03m49s an example

but full jump has a lot more horizontal movement than a double jump, so different situations will call for that

 

[Strong Badam]

smash DI = smashing the stick in the hitlag of the move, not holding the stick

uh.... yeah....?

so so you can start holding away at any point outside of the hitlag of the shine, but it wont do anything

why? why would shine have different DI properties than every other move in the game, aside from a set knockback?

smash DI is a term thrown around way more often than it actually occurs, so generally when i say DI, i'm not talking about smash DI at all because people only really do it on fox's uair and some drill attacks

yeah.

darkrains really good at the game but he doesnt know any secrets about DI that the rest of us dont

he doesn't know any secrets about DIing, but what he DOES (read: probably does; I haven't done extensive research on it) have is the skill to DI things that most people can't.
anyway this is dumb and doesn't have anything to do with falcon, so whatever.

 

[Meneks]

if i know i have to get over something and come down to hit them with an aerial i usually double jump to do it

the most common example i can think of is i get around get up attacks with it

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRUKpK5N9Eg#t=03m49s an example

but full jump has a lot more horizontal movement than a double jump, so different situations will call for that

This is exactly like doing double jump dairs with falco I didn't think i could implement that with any of my other characters. BTW
How did you link me to that video and already had it set to the exact second you wanted me to see?
and on another note..
I want a rematch big D lol

 

[BigD!!!]

the stuff i typed starting with #t

put that after the normal url for the video, with the time you want filled in, i set it for 3:49

 

[KAOSTAR]

As far as the shines are concerned, I was under the impression that holding away, ie ASDI will increase the distance u are knocked back.

The reason this makes sense is because, you can only Di with the c stick during autosmash DI which is the last frame of the hitlag. This can be accomplished from merely holding a directions.

This is the reason you can CC with the c stick proving that CCing is s form of auto smash DI.

In conclusion, you can just hold away and get 1 frame of smash Di from the shine, whether or not its enough is another story.

Ill try to implement dj nairs into my playstyle with falcon...
Coming back to the discussion on approaching if kneeing to approach is better then nair would it make more sense to dj knee?

The knee, as previously expressed, does not have two hitboxes or last as long, nor does it have the range.

In retrospect, if you can land a knee, then land a knee. But as an apporach the nair has more range and lasts longer-not to mention it combos into most of falcons moves including knees and more nairs.

So its safer to nair, and overall its better as an approach. Use the knee as a punish to step dodges.

For an audible explanation of how to do that, simple jump right in front of them, delay the knee a bit until they step dodge, thinking you will attack right away, and you should hit when they return to the plane of get *****.

ladies and gentlemen, thats how you play captain falcon lol