Sliq is Amazing and so Can You! *Now with Smileypants Bowser Avatar!*

[Devil7]

yeah its called the tipman spike

 

[Thinkaman]

So I've been playing around with the diminishing rate of the dair, which can be a big problem for g-dorf. If dair was your last move and your opponent is at 0% (so a dair spike KO) your diminished dair might not be enough to stun a grounded opponent. This is going to ruin any smexy dair-u-smash combos or linkage.

It varies by character, but I can't see any pattern because I don't understand knockback/stun enough. Dair wouldn't stun a 0% Mario if it was one of the last 3 moves used, and Snake was the same. Jigglypuff wasn't affected unless I put a lot of dairs in the stale moves list, while Capt. Falcon wouldn't be stunned unless a dair was buried 5 moves deep!

I can't test this by myself, but a extremely clever Falcon might be able to take a dair to get a free f-smash for example. It still does 20%, but still, the more you know.

EDIT: I ran through and found how many moves deep in the stale moves list the dair has to be to knock up; this was mainly just for me to understand weight and fortification, but if I'm wasting my life getting numbers, might as well share them. (Numbers in parens is how deep double dairs have to be, for lightweights)

Mario-4
DK-8
Link-5
Samus-6
Zamus-1 (5+6)
Kirby-1 (5+6)
Fox-1 (5+6)
Pikachu-1 (5+6)
Marth-1 (6+7)
G&W-1 (4+5)
Luigi-4
Diddy-3
Zelda-1 (5+6)
Shiek-1 (6+7)
Pit-3
Metaknight-1 (5+6)
Falco-1 (5+6)
Squirtle-1 (4+5)
Ivysaur-4
Charizard-7
Ike-5
Snake-7
Peach-2
Yoshi-6
Ganondorf-6
Ice Climbers-1 (5+6)
DeDeDe-7
Wolf-5
Lucario-4
Ness-3
Sonic-3
Bowser-6
Wario-6
Toon Link-2
ROB-6
Olimar-1 (4+5)
Capt. Falcon-5
Jigglypuff-1 (3+4)
Lucas-2

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I think Thinkaman is the man.

 

[Jekyll]

yeah its called the tipman spike

OK...because I obviously didn't know that.

What I'm trying to say is that the way the launch trajectories are calculated for attacks(specifically ones that travel in a circular motion) are slightly more complex than melee. Therefore, there are more angles that you can send the opponent with the Uair; one of them happens to be almost straight down.

 

[Sliq]

OK...because I obviously didn't know that.

What I'm trying to say is that the way the launch trajectories are calculated for attacks(specifically ones that travel in a circular motion) are slightly more complex than melee. Therefore, there are more angles that you can send the opponent with the Uair; one of them happens to be almost straight down.

I think it's better to just try and hit them with the beginning of the end of the up air, incase they airdodge, it sends them straight down with the end.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think it's better to just try and hit them with the beginning of the end of the up air, incase they airdodge, it sends them straight down with the end.

Yeah; the initial hitbox of the uair is so KO-able, I seldom see a need to try and hit with the much slower and smaller downward hit at the end.

 

[Zarez]

Seems like some interesting information. I still need to try out most of this stuff, though. There are a few things that I've already started using efficiently, and others that I need to practice a bit more.

off-topic: It's amusing, seeing Ganondorf in that sig, instead of Ike. Everytime I look at it...

 

[Sliq]

I updated with Jekyll's super awesome Murder Choke guide.

I plan on doing a guide for which characters get hit by full hop dair, and which character's shields get hit, etc.

 

[Blackshadow]

And for good contrast, the next combo, no matter how good, shall be called the Chuckle Duck Combo.

 

[Devil7]

the chuckle duck combo should be the name of his uair -> jab/ftilt. Of course this only works on fatties like dorf, bowser and fast fallers like space animals

 

[theguyfromlabyrinth]

Ganondorf can glide toss people. I tested it. It is awesome.

Aww, I totally thought by "Ganondorf can glide toss people" that he could literally glide toss people instead of items. Which would be badass.

 

[Sliq]

Added Aerial Rave and Crush Punch. Check the 1st post for the new info.

Aww, I totally thought by "Ganondorf can glide toss people" that he could literally glide toss people instead of items. Which would be badass.

Sakurai, get on this. Like right now.

 

[Metal_Dave]

I read it the same way too. lol

But that's a cool thing to know like especially against a diddy player or snake with his grenades ftw.

 

[Cooper736]

First off, nice thread. Thunderstorming has really helped my play, and just reading over some of the tips further down has given me new ideas as well. However, I was reading your post in the "Most Technical Players" thread in General, and you mention autocanceling the Fair. How do you do this? Does it just makes your Fair not work, or do you get no landing lag?

 

[Tenki]

First off, nice thread. Thunderstorming has really helped my play, and just reading over some of the tips further down has given me new ideas as well. However, I was reading your post in the "Most Technical Players" thread in General, and you mention autocanceling the Fair. How do you do this? Does it just makes your Fair not work, or do you get no landing lag?

You can autocancel it if you double jump, and do F-air as you press the 2nd jump.

Timing is so precise and the range that it affects (...the top of your 2nd jump) is so limited that it's almost useless to do it just for the sake of lag cancelling.

You can probably lag cancel it if you do it out of a ledge jump, too =/

IMO it's better off done either off-stage or against aerial characters, or when you don't feel you can be punished too hard for missing it.

 

[Cooper736]

Doesn't even seem worth it on a double jump. It can already hit everyone off an SH, and if it hits, you've got hitstun to get back on your feet. Thanks though.

 

[PK-ow!]

Murder Chin
On BF, if you auto-cancel dair, it will hit people on the side platforms, because as everyone knows, Ganondorf shoots lightning out of his beard. Ok, well, he doesn't, but the hitbox of the move will hit people above you. This is a great to do when you have your opponent above you, as you can do multiple rapid fire ac dairs. It is way more flexible than up smashing through the plat, and hits harder than up airing through it, as well.

I fell out of my chair. rofltastic.

Good stuff on the murder stomp; footstool -> foot

The murder thing is slightly overused. Only slightly.
This is not understatement - it really is fracking hilarious. Murder choke, murder punch, murder lunge, all great. Murder slide, not so cool. It's just 'eh'.

Oh and nice chart. Excellent craftsmanship on that one.

EDIT: I have been informed that these mad props belong to Jekyll.
Jekyll, receive these mad props. *gestures cryptically*

 

[Devil7]

His next move is called the murder stab. Its were he takes out his sword and actually uses it

 

[Sliq]

I fell out of my chair. rofltastic.

Good stuff on the murder stomp; footstool -> foot

The murder thing is slightly overused. Only slightly.
This is not understatement - it really is fracking hilarious. Murder choke, murder punch, murder lunge, all great. Murder slide, not so cool. It's just 'eh'.

Oh and nice chart. Excellent craftsmanship on that one.

I didn't make the chart, Jekyll did. All mad props go to him.

 

[Big_R]

I also named Ganon's Fair Crushpunch, in honor of Final Fantasy Tactics..

wtf? i thought it was fist of the north star...

 

[Sliq]

wtf? i thought it was fist of the north star...

I call it both. It's only fist of the north star when they die off the top.

 

[Phoenix Reborn]

I'm having trouble finding ways to strike with Thunder Storms. It's not a move that I can pull on opponents when I'm on the ground because a lot of the time they're fast enough to intercept my SH before I can land the move.

My one method is to use Murder Choke followed by a SH D-Air, but that's really situational. It doesn't work on certain characters, and my SH is rather inconsistent. I can spike with his D-Air no problem though.

What are some tips for landing the Thunder Storms effectively?

 

[Devil7]

If the are dodging then anticapate. If they are shielding then following it up with a second dair or usmash. It will either land since they weren't ready or it will force them to not use their shield a third time.

 

[Pyrostormer]

I found most of this out a long time ago. But crazy props to Sliq and Jekyll. Very nice topic and I'm sure mostly everybody is thankful.

 

[Anomilus]

Seems like suicide (and on Wi-Fi- it practically is), but if you have some good timing, you can go to the edge of a stage, perform a full-hop Murder Kick off the stage, then double jump into a Murder Lunge and recover. I got the idea after using Sonic and learning to DAir off the stage and recover right after. Ganondorf can do it too, but just barely. If the timing's off by even a little, he'll either miss the ledge upon Murder Lunging...or just simply Murder Kick to his death.

An alternative is to hop off a suspended platform near the ledge to gain some extra height, then Murder Kick, but not only does it take time, but it's easily telegraphed and your opponent probably won't fall for it like that.

Anyhoo the immediate use of this technique is obvious - since Murder Kick can spike, what better time to use it than on a recovering opponent. Obviously the opponent has to be below the stage and within decent range in order to connect, but it's still possible. There is one more plus to this technique though: If you miss the Murder Kick and your opponent grabs the ledge, they'll likely get back on thinking you just killed yourself....only to see you RISE FROM THE GRAVE and recover.

...So now they know you can recover. If this ever happens again, they'll be sure to grab the ledge and stay there to make sure you don't get back. That's when Ganondorf's Murder Lunge ***** them right off the ledge and kills them anyway! (The 2nd attack of Murder Lunge should be called Murder Uppercut or something! =P)

I'll be honest now... I haven't really pulled this all off in actual combat, being I only have Wifi to test this in, and usually I would just die instantly due to difficulty timing my double jump. But I see no reason why this can't work. If Ganondorf misses or the opponent dodges, Ganon can quickly climb up from near-death and recover (only real flaw is if the opponent manages to grab the ledge JUST when Ganondorf Murder Lunges). If Ganondorf connects, either the opponent gets spiked to death, or they get hit hard, Ganondorf recovers, and then he still gets to edgeguard 'em.

Now as complicated as this is, maybe Tipman spiking is a much easier alternative.... but it's always nice to have more options (especially Murderously deadly options!)

 

[Thinkaman]

I used down-b off the side (with it's barely possible recovery) early on, but quickly found out that it just isn't very useful or practical. Anything it can accomplish can be done with a dair better, safer, easier, and faster.

Keep down-b on the stage where it shines.

 

[CluelessBTD]

I used down-b off the side (with it's barely possible recovery) early on, but quickly found out that it just isn't very useful or practical. Anything it can accomplish can be done with a dair better, safer, easier, and faster.

Keep down-b on the stage where it shines.

I use downB as an edgeguard. It kills people way more often than it should

 

[aequitas.veritas]

dammit. i wanted an excuse to slowly learn which attacks work against certain characters in these situations. now i have to ****ing memorize this ****.

 

[Sliq]

dammit. i wanted an excuse to slowly learn which attacks work against certain characters in these situations. now i have to ****ing memorize this ****.

You forgot the part where in between learning that stuff, you make new threads asking questions answered in one of the stickies, driving everyone into a rage frenzy.

 

[aequitas.veritas]

lol. true that. well not ME personally but, ya.

 

[Dragmire]

not that hard just do them first then make it second natured

or turn it into an explosive rage that works too

 

[Najeh]

sliq, my hero ;^)

wow sliq ur my hero!
i was very dissapointed with the new ganon when the game first came out (played way too much melee ganon) but i grew to love him and all these trixxies make me love him even more.

couple questions for my hero: whats the best way to follow up an aerial side b?
Should i really set the c-stick to attack isntead of smash?
Do you ever avoid using a move early in a stock with the hopes of using to kill them the first time u execute it when they are at the lowest possible damage?
if so, which move or is it situational?
is there something to be said for switching the b button to jump and the y button to special in order to use auto-cancels more effectively?

 

[Sliq]

couple questions for my hero: whats the best way to follow up an aerial side b?

I know Jekyll did a guide about what moves work on who after the over b, but I wonder if the list changes because there is a difference in the aerial version. If there is no difference, just refer to his post (quoted in my first post) and follow up using that.

Personally, I prefer multiple over b tech chasing, and ending it with a strong as move.

Generally, if I think they'll get up attack ro just get up, I stomp, if they roll behind I either stomp or f smash behind me, and if they roll away I sh fair.

Should i really set the c-stick to attack isntead of smash?

This is a personal preference thing. I like to have it set to smash because it is what I'm used to, and so I can stutter step Ganon's fsmash and give it more range. Plus, I don't find tilting to be all that difficult. The only reason I might do it is to do non ff'd dairs off the stage.

Do you ever avoid using a move early in a stock with the hopes of using to kill them the first time u execute it when they are at the lowest possible damage?

As Ganondorf my first priority is just hitting them, let alone picking out of the very few moves he can use effectively. Personally, I never use bair, so it is usually full strength for KO'ing.

Ganon only has to hit the opponent a few times for a KO, and almost all of his moves are KO moves, so I don't really see any point in it.

if so, which move or is it situational?

Basically, fair should never be used unless you plan on KO'ing your opponent, so I would just use fair once they are high enough percent.

Dair is too good to save, but if you can, you can kill at ridiculous percents.

is there something to be said for switching the b button to jump and the y button to special in order to use auto-cancels more effectively?

You can change the control layout to whatever you want, but I personally don't have a problem ac'ing with Y jumping.

 

[Tenki]

whats the best way to follow up an aerial side b?
Should i really set the c-stick to attack isntead of smash?
Do you ever avoid using a move early in a stock with the hopes of using to kill them the first time u execute it when they are at the lowest possible damage?
if so, which move or is it situational?
is there something to be said for switching the b button to jump and the y button to special in order to use auto-cancels more effectively?

-usually sh d-air, they tend to mash A when they get caught by aerials
-that would be his kill moves, but Ganondorf has so many that you can use some of them for damage and save the others for killing.
-@buttons, personal preference. If you can flick from B to Y and still shorthop, then go for it.

 

[aequitas.veritas]

alright. i do have one question. maybe i should have searched or created another thread for this but here goes:


is it just me or is ganon's uptilt completely useless? i mean, when do you get like 7 seconds to charge that thing. or am i just a noob and is there some way to execute it early that im not aware of.

i wish he did like a headbutt or something that you could follow with an uair. that would be more practical.

 

[leafgreen386]

wow sliq ur my hero!
i was very dissapointed with the new ganon when the game first came out (played way too much melee ganon) but i grew to love him and all these trixxies make me love him even more.

couple questions for my hero: whats the best way to follow up an aerial side b?
Should i really set the c-stick to attack isntead of smash?
Do you ever avoid using a move early in a stock with the hopes of using to kill them the first time u execute it when they are at the lowest possible damage?
if so, which move or is it situational?
is there something to be said for switching the b button to jump and the y button to special in order to use auto-cancels more effectively?

I use the control stick to sh when performing auto canceled dairs. There's a much bigger timeframe to do it in in brawl, so it's actually practical and doesn't require much practice to be able to do consistently. There's no need to change your controller configuration lol

@veritas: Nope. There's no way to speed it up.

 

[WastingPenguins]

i wish he did like a headbutt or something that you could follow with an uair. that would be more practical.

Sigh... if Ganon had a normal utilt he'd be so much better off. Something like Dedede's.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Ganon Teleport glitch with Pit

Okay didn't see this anywhere and fig'd should just post it.

If you do a reverse Warlock Punch and Pit uses Mirror Shield you will go completely to the other side of the stage. Sadly I tried to get a hit box with it and no it doesn't hit but hey now you have a glitch to add to the thread.

 

[Sliq]

alright. i do have one question. maybe i should have searched or created another thread for this but here goes:


is it just me or is ganon's uptilt completely useless? i mean, when do you get like 7 seconds to charge that thing. or am i just a noob and is there some way to execute it early that im not aware of.

i wish he did like a headbutt or something that you could follow with an uair. that would be more practical.

Ganon's up tilt isn't useless. It has a ****ing enormous hitbox, and demolishes shields. It isn't spammable, but it doesn't have a lot of end lag, so if you time it properly, it isn't easily punished.

It is best used when someone is on the ledge. If you space it properly, people who roll can be pushed by the vacuum effect and hit with it, not to mention people who get-up attack, just get up, or jump. The hitbox is so huge that it can hit people jumping from the ledge. If someone gets hti by it they are hurting, and if someone shields it, they are hurting. It's actually a pretty great move.

 

[aequitas.veritas]

yeah i figured you would use it when someone was trying to recover it just seems too hard to time properly and seems pretty telegraphed and avoidable