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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Samochan

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Why cannot we merge all uhm, adult (aka teen) links? <_> Liek OoT, TP, Zelda 1&2 and Lttp. They're all basically adult links here. It's either merge, or we pick between OoT Link or TP Link, cause those link's are what we've seen on melee and brawl. Me thinks merging Link is cooler. :p Otherwise we'd need to pick between OoT Link and TP link. <.<

Diddy, Mewtwo's loss is cause I went to bed instead of debating till 5 am. True fact. :p
 

Diddy Kong

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Why cannot we merge all uhm, adult (aka teen) links? <_> Liek OoT, TP, Zelda 1&2 and Lttp. They're all basically adult links here. It's either merge, or we pick between OoT Link or TP Link, cause those link's are what we've seen on melee and brawl. Me thinks merging Link is cooler. :p Otherwise we'd need to pick between OoT Link and TP link. <.<

Diddy, Mewtwo's loss is cause I went to bed instead of debating till 5 am. True fact. :p
Merging all Links togheter would maybe place Link above Ganondorf even. We could also, you know... have OoT Link, TP Link, "merged" Link, Young Link and Toon Link and give them all different places on the eventual tier list.

So Mewtwo lost cause of you. Couldn't you stay up a little while longer? :p But seriously though, Mewtwo shouldn't have lost.
 

Crystanium

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Fine but this is probably the last I'll reply because I'm simply not going to agree with you
I don't care. We call that conceding.

You need proof that what I said is wrong, so far you have none other than a lame excuse made up to keep the game balanced, you'll have to do better, my point stands, those masks are useable.
It doesn't work that way. You made the claim that Link can use the Fierce Deity mask and the Giant's mask outside of boss rooms. The ball is in your park. This is equivalent to telling me God exists, and when I ask that you prove it, that you're telling me to prove that God does not exist. It doesn't work that way. I'll wait. At least I have in-game evidence.

You CAN use Fierce Deity outside Boss battles, but you have to do a glitch, but oh I guess that doesn't count to you because you gameplay balance really isn't good enough of a reason for you:ohwell:, so there Fierce Deity is possible outside Boss Rooms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A6g3COgzSo&feature=related Japanese Version doesn't require Hacks so there
Glitches aren't a part of the canon, therefore, they do not count.

If you're a giant, you can smash buildings.... you're not serious are you, are you really being that ridiculous about this? How about we all just use common sense
I'll let you have fun thinking I'm some unintelligent fool. When I said how you were going to smash temples as a giant, I was simply talking about in-game. You said the developers wouldn't want you to go smashing through the temples, because it would ruin the game. The temples wouldn't get smashed in the same way hacking your sword at a tree wouldn't cause damage to the tree.

I'm saying if she latched herself onto his shield, he could just lift her up and smash her around by moving his shield with the gold gauntlets, is this really your level of intelligence? I'm not trying to be insulting but **** you don't seem to get anything, use common sense, so far you really haven't been.
You can leave my intelligence out of this. It doesn't make you any more credible. Let's not attack the person, please. Instead, let's attack the argument. Also, I doubt that's what Link would do. It's simple, really. Use the Grapple Beam on the Mirror Shield and pull it away from Link.

Vehicles have wheels dippy:p, giant stone blocks do not, did you take physics? Doesn't seem like you did, when you deadlift something you use all of your body's muscles just like you do with pushing such a block, granted that making it slide is a bit easier but his ability to do that at least shows he is very strong as I doubt any average human would be capable of such a feat.
Link can't even lift a Bomb without the Goron Bracelet. This is a contradiction. Link can wield a two-handed sword with two-hands, even though with the Silver and Golden Gauntlets, he should be able to use one hand. Another contradiction.

You claim that I have no in-game evidence to support the masks are useable outside Boss rooms, well look what you're doing right here, THE SAME ****ING THING, your such a hypocrite, there's no evidence she can do that right so I'll just dismiss that like you dismissed the mask idea, you just assume that's true because it would make sense, well so would the masks don't even try to split these two up.
I couldn't care less if I am being hypocritical. Let's try to avoid argumentum ad tu quoque. "A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it." To put this another way, let's say I am a smoker, and I had a son. I tell my son, "Don't smoke. It's bad for you." Then my son says, "Why not? You smoke." That's tu quoque.

Anyway, the information provided in Super Smash Bros. regarding characters is permitted, because it does not conflict with the actual game. Never mind some of the errors, such as acquiring the Dark Suit in Torvus Bog, when it should have said Dark Agon. We can compare those with the actual games. One codec regarding Zero Suit Samus says that she's a super athlete. That is my information.

It can be either since Link's actions are based on the player's decisions, same as most video game characters, you don't look at what the character would do if they had a real-life personality for themselves, you look at what is POSSIBLE for them to do. Ever seen deadliest warrior? They simulate 1000 battles because they know there could be many decisions in a fight, but overall the person who has the best options would win.
Then Samus wins. Metroid: Zero Mission and Metroid Fusion Instruction Booklets say Samus runs at supersonic speeds with the Speed Booster. Those speeds are between Mach 1 and Mach 4.9. Mach 5 is hypersonic speed. In the Super Metroid Instruction Booklet, it says Samus is invincible when she uses the Speed Booster. Link cannot do anything about this, because Samus is moving too quick for Link anyway. You took physics, I presume. What happens when an object going at very high speed crashes into another object? Well, I guess we could get an idea from watching this.

Another option is that Samus can run at supersonic speed and just take away Link's Mirror Shield or Master Sword. Sonic won because he snatched the Star Rod from Bowser before Bowser could use it. Why? Because, Sonic was too fast for Bowser to react. And still, another option is the Imperialist, which fires a lethal laser. A laser is light, which means lasers travel at the speed of light. There is even a laser that went superluminous speed. With that, it's a OHKO for Link.

Link has arrows. At best, modern arrows fly at 187 mph. That's too slow, even if Samus just ran at the speed of sound. And Link isn't even using a modern bow. Bombs? Those are only useful for fixed objects and opponents, like the Beamos. Boomerang? That would be the equivalent of hitting a Darknut with the Boomerang. It would have no effect on Samus. I really fail to see what Link can use against Samus. She can just camp all day long and defeat Link that way. Or, if she wants to get it over with, smash right into Link and kill him on impact. Oh, Nayru's Love? That takes time to start up. It takes only one second for Samus to use the Speed Booster.

Read above post. That and if it's not disconnecting from Samus' arm like a laser, then it's obviously a grabbing mechanism, it's common sense, what are you going to try to evaluate Link's IQ now? He doesn't have one, he's a computer generated being, stop being so ridiculous and treating video game characters like real people
Then I guess Link cannot defeat Samus. His sword has trouble piercing through armor or shields. What is Samus wearing? Armor. I guess she won't take damage from the Master Sword. I mean, let's stop adding a bit of realism here, even though we both are adding realism by allowing the characters to do things they are otherwise incapable of doing. Or should Link still be incapable of jumping without Roc's Cape?

No, the spirit is separate from the body and leaves it once a person has passed, don't try bringing in religious or philosophical differences that's a whole other debate quite off subject. Fact is that Link eventually dies, but his soul lives on and comes back in the new Link, don't even try.
I love the irony here. A spirit leaving a body once the body dies is called an "afterlife." Saying this spirit then dwells in another body when a hero is needed is just plain reincarnation. Both views are religious views. So, I laugh at you for ignoring the religious and philosophical things, even though the Zelda series is guilty for having a dualistic mythology of light versus dark (Zoroastrianism; Manichaeism), has three gods (tritheism or trinitarianism?), has Fierce Deity, another god (perhaps polytheism?), and Ganondorf is resurrected.

WW already proves that, you just have to put the pieces of the puzzle together, you could see the bigger picture if you stopped dismissing each piece as merely theory. Or maybe you don't have the intelligence to do so?
When you're losing, resort to insulting other peoples' intelligence! Please prove it.

Just because a character's body has changed doesn't make him different, it's still Link, his soul is part of him and doesn't change, we've been over this, Link has a different body, that is what Miyamoto meant, but there's in-game evidence that Link still has the same soul
But his body changes. Computer A is not Computer B, despite the fact Computer B has the data of Computer A. Please prove that Shigeru Miyamoto meant what you're saying. Please prove that it's the same Link in a different body.

You see souls of average random people that died in these games, meaning everyone has souls, meaning Link does too, meaning it's part of him, meaning when he dies his soul leaves his body, meaning... **** are you serious, my 12 year old brother can figure this stuff out:laugh:
Now prove that this "soul" travels to another body to be reincarnated.

Dippy, his soul DID exist in that realm, he performed actions, but then he left that realm via Zelda, meaning he's not there anymore meaning his soul can't be put in a new body if it isn't there... Really I need to know if you're joking or not
Doesn't matter. Prove reincarnation is involved. And don't call me Dippy. You may call your 12 year old brother whatever you want, but I am not your 12 year old brother. Do not call me Dippy or any other name.

The spirit is saying that's who Link is, it's his true form, he IS the Hero of Time, how many times does the spirit need to say it before you get it? New body, same spirit(you see these all throughout games so what else could make him the same being), and apparently that qualification in LOZ that you are the hero of time, there, in-game proof
It calls him the Hero of Time. But what is that to me? I can liken it to being called the Messiah or the Chosen One, but it doesn't mean I was someone else named Link before my time here on Earth now.

Either you're not too bright, or very stubborn, can't tell.
Irrelevant.

But you don't speak for everyone here, if we were using separate Links, the OP would've said so but he didn't, and if you do want to, we need a vote everytime Link has a matchup as to who is going to be used otherwise it's not a uniformed decision.
Hey, guess what? You weren't here when all these pages were around, and when we had at least 100 pages of Samus versus Link. Guess what? It was not every incarnation of Link combined into one. This has already been established, newcomer.
 

Crystanium

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What link's merge are we using again? <.< I assume it's Oot + TP links.
Link was never merged. When we discussed with galekill, he was using OoT Link, but he used TP as a side note. The only reason why Link from these games were ever mentioned was because in SSB and SSBM, it was Link from OoT, and in SSBB, it was Link from TP. OoT, I think is stronger than TP, so we went with OoT.
 

Diddy Kong

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Dude, Akuma... Samus seriously will defeat Link. After all, it's someone with high tech space weaponary against someone with medieval weapons and a bit of magic. I think if Samus is able to hurt Ganondorf, she'd beat him as well. Samus is hugely overpowered.

Now up to the match up again... I think this maybe should end up in a draw, depending what Link we use.

The sound wave attack keeps Link's projectiles away, or could maybe knock Link over as it's able to stun enemies bigger than Link. TP Link doesn't have much that could hit DK out of the range of the sound wave attack, except maybe the Ball & Chain. But when Link does this, he's open for a big assault of powerful punches from DK, which would do mayor damage. Not impossbile is that DK could even CATCH the ball from the Ball & Chain and throw it back at Link, as DK's able to do many similair things as that in Jungle Beat. Also DK's invincibility would prove very useful here, giving him the option to just approach Link and punch him.
Methinks DK > TP Link.

OoT Link could use Din's Fire to attack DK as magic would likely pass the shockwaves DK creates, but DK's got plenty of stamina and has been hit by fire before. DK could heal up to 33% of his damage by eating bananas, as he did in King of Swing. I dunno how many times Link can use Din's Fire, but it'd be his best bet in this match up.
 

Diddy Kong

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Plain arrows would be reflected with the sound wave attack. But yeah, since Fire and Ice Arrows are magic... guess it doesn't work then.

OoT Link > DK > TP Link

Depending on what Link we use, the OP can decide who wins.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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@Diddy and Samochan (if that's how spell it): If you think Mewtwo > Bowser, then please state facts as to why. It'll get me to change my mind better that way :)
 

Sasha

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@Raizen: Please tell us which Link we're using so we can properly debate.

@DiddyKong: If it's a neutral stage, I don't think DK could find any bananas.

And Ice Arrows are BEAST.
 

Samochan

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I've already made my side of that matchup fairly clear. :p

Like, embargo prevents boozer from using any items, future sight hits bowser even when he's using teleport and targets his weak (weaker than his defence, the very least) sp.defence with mewtwo's immense sp.attack (no resistances, stab, immunities, weakness etc. are taken into account) plus mewtwo is able to do his stuff when future sight is about to hit, recover heals 50% of his hp in one go and substitute protects him against both attacks and status ailments. Mewtwo is faster than bowser and doesn't require any physical movement to do his moves and being the most powerful psychic in the pokeverse he should have ample time to do 2 moves when bowser does 1 of his, or counteract bowser's attempts to either use star rod or magic (com'on, psychic abilities lol and bowser's body language is very uh, discernible). There is also no proof of how fast bowser is able to magic stuff into tumbleweed (nor basically how it works and against whom it works and what it requires), but usually bowser is kinda sluggish to walk around, exaggerates his movements or simply lags when he does his stuff, not forgetting he's cocky. Mewtwo, the ultimate combat pokemon on the other hand, is savage in nature, lacking in compassion and only thinking of defeating it's foes.

Without any broken items nor means to escape mewtwo's attack nor permanently harm mewtwo himself, Bowser is screwed.

My reasoning why Mewtwo should've won. <_<
 

missingnomaster

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Merged Link theory doesn't make sense, and leads to further problems.
-For one, even if Link is the same person in a different body, it doesn't matter. They are in a different time, and a different place. OoT Link has no way of getting TP Link's stuff for example.

-Also, this brings up something else: A rule regarding Power Loss. Link loses those items do to not having access to them anymore. If Link gets items that fall under that category, then so should other characters. This means everyone gets everything they've had, even if they lost it. Stuff Like Peach using the Pure Hearts, Samus having permanent risk-free Hypermode, Marth having Falchion and his orbs, ect.

Also, I have a quarrel to make with Mewtwo getting TMs. The reason for Mewtwo getting TMs, I believe, is because many items such as TMs can be found on the ground. This is ok, I suppose, but it means he can only use TMs that can be found on the ground in Kanto, and maybe Johto. That would mean no Embargo, or Snatch, which means Bowser can just invincibility his way to victory.
 

Samochan

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Also, I have a quarrel to make with Mewtwo getting TMs. The reason for Mewtwo getting TMs, I believe, is because many items such as TMs can be found on the ground. This is ok, I suppose, but it means he can only use TMs that can be found on the ground in Kanto, and maybe Johto. That would mean no Embargo, or Snatch, which means Bowser can just invincibility his way to victory.
*cough* Sinnoh is right next to Johto. >_> Unless you forgot that Jasmine the gym leader was in Sinnoh also. If a human can go to sinnoh, I'm fairly sure the most powerful psychic pokemon in the pokemon world can also do so (especially when he can float according to pokemon stadium).

Not forgetting TM 63 aka embargo can be found from johto route 34 =)

I don't think there's power loss in question when you need to swap item for another for the storyline to continue. With orbs, there's no falchion. With Falchion, there's not orbs. And so on. Marth has never achieved such thing ingame where he has both, thus that's not his real max potential he has. I have no quarrel against people having items they lost once... (if I had, I'd whine about Bowser and star rod lol) but this swap thingy is different, as that person never loses the item in the first place but swaps it for another. There is no power loss. >_>
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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@Raizen: Please tell us which Link we're using so we can properly debate.

@DiddyKong: If it's a neutral stage, I don't think DK could find any bananas.

And Ice Arrows are BEAST.

Adult OoT Link, or TP Link. Actually, you can use any Link who aren't WW Link, or young OoT Link.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Okay guys, this match-ups been going for long enough, moving on.

VS.







Current Match-Up:

THE LORD WARRIOR Vs. THE SPACE PILOT

Marth Vs. Fox

Vs.


Losers Round 1, Match 4.

Who will win? YOU decide!

Overall Results

Wins +2:


Wins +1:
,
, , ,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:, :dedede:


Neutral:
,
,
,
,

Loss -1:
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, :jigglypuff:, :rob:, :gw:

Loss -2:

, ,
 

missingnomaster

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*cough* Sinnoh is right next to Johto. >_> Unless you forgot that Jasmine the gym leader was in Sinnoh also. If a human can go to sinnoh, I'm fairly sure the most powerful psychic pokemon in the pokemon world can also do so (especially when he can float according to pokemon stadium).

Not forgetting TM 63 aka embargo can be found from johto route 34 =)
Mewtwo knows about Johto, and that a useful move for him is located there?

Snatch is found in Hoenn.

Embargo is in Johto? Is that in HG/SS?
 

Samochan

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Mewtwo knows about Johto, and that a useful move for him is located there?

Snatch is found in Hoenn.

Embargo is in Johto? Is that in HG/SS?
I'd find it very bizarre for Mewtwo to NOT know about Johto at all, considering all the Kanto <-> Johto connectivities like Elite Four, Railway... I think Mewtwo would need fresh air in like 2-3 years he's been on that Cerulean cave no? :p

I can also imagine he'd be dumbfounded to find a new pokemon species on his lair as well, if he for some reason didn't know Johto (or Hoenn and Sinnoh) lol. Not forgetting all the other pokes outside the cave and roaming legendaries too.

All TM's can be found from HGSS. <_<

But hey, are we gonna play this same sorta game with everyone else then? Something akin to "Bowser shouldn't have Star rod cause it's not his own property". :/ You're kinda grasping straws here, imo.
 

justaway12

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I've already made my side of that matchup fairly clear. :p

Like, embargo prevents boozer from using any items, future sight hits bowser even when he's using teleport and targets his weak (weaker than his defence, the very least) sp.defence with mewtwo's immense sp.attack (no resistances, stab, immunities, weakness etc. are taken into account) plus mewtwo is able to do his stuff when future sight is about to hit, recover heals 50% of his hp in one go and substitute protects him against both attacks and status ailments. Mewtwo is faster than bowser and doesn't require any physical movement to do his moves and being the most powerful psychic in the pokeverse he should have ample time to do 2 moves when bowser does 1 of his, or counteract bowser's attempts to either use star rod or magic (com'on, psychic abilities lol and bowser's body language is very uh, discernible). There is also no proof of how fast bowser is able to magic stuff into tumbleweed (nor basically how it works and against whom it works and what it requires), but usually bowser is kinda sluggish to walk around, exaggerates his movements or simply lags when he does his stuff, not forgetting he's cocky. Mewtwo, the ultimate combat pokemon on the other hand, is savage in nature, lacking in compassion and only thinking of defeating it's foes.

Without any broken items nor means to escape mewtwo's attack nor permanently harm mewtwo himself, Bowser is screwed.

My reasoning why Mewtwo should've won. <_<
It all depends on what Mewtwo does first, if he does anything other than protect, he will get turned into a block.

Bowser is normally sluggish to walk around, but he doesn't always exaggerate his movements, play SPM or Super Mario RPG, he normally attacks right away, I could say the same about Mewtwo, we don't know how fast Pokemon go since it's all RPG-ish, and the 3d stuff look awfully slow. (that would be silly, but I'm trying to make a point...)

Bowser can most probably take a punch against Mewtwo, we still need to average out his move from RPG, it's not the same as Pokemon, I have been trying to find something.

Obviously Bowser can hurt Mewtwo, he has more than his items, his Jump flys him off screen and creates earthquakes, in Super Mario RPG his move crusher summoned a gaint sharp rock under its oppenent instantly.

I need to look at his transportation again ut when he is transparent, I would imagine he is, you know walkthrough, like a boo or something...

@Samo's previous post: There has been no evidence of him going to Johto, right? We can't assume something, he isn't he in hiding? I would imagine he hardly ever leaves Kanto, that's just my opinion, but so is everything else about him travelling to different places. I don't even think it's canon =/
 

Diddy Kong

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@Raizen: Please tell us which Link we're using so we can properly debate.

@DiddyKong: If it's a neutral stage, I don't think DK could find any bananas.

And Ice Arrows are BEAST.
Why can't he bring his bananas? Everyone brings in their equipment. Mario has Mushrooms for example, Link can have Rupees, so Donkey Kong can have bananas. Simple as that.

I agree with Ice Arrows though. They mean serious problems for DK, as does most magic.

@Diddy and Samochan (if that's how spell it): If you think Mewtwo > Bowser, then please state facts as to why. It'll get me to change my mind better that way :)
Okay, keeping it as short as possible:

-Embargo prevents item use, that means no Star Rod, no Stop Watch, no healing.
-Bowser's Mg.Def in SMRPG sucks, Mewtwo's Special Attack is ****ing awesome.
-Bowser's teleport is slow, and he can't keep on doing it like how you described it in your summary of how Bowser won this.
-May Bowser teleport away, Mewtwo has time to set up. After just 2 Calm Minds, his Special stats are double of what they originally where. Mewtwo can Calm Mind up to 6 times, means that his Sp.Atk can get 3 times as high as it originally was.
-Mewtwo can stall better than Bowser if Bowser's unable to use items.
-Aura Sphere. Hits through Double Team, so it hits through low leveled teleporting as well.
 

missingnomaster

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(In regards to Samochan's post)
Sorry, I meant Sinnoh =/

Mewtwo really doesn't strike me as the type of guy to go adventuring the land looking for TMs, in a manner similar to the main characters of the series.... Which reminds me.... It's canon for the main character to pick those TMs up, not Mewtwo...
 

Samochan

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It all depends on what Mewtwo does first, if he does anything other than protect, he will get turned into a block.
As I said, we have no conclusive information about Bowser's magic ability when it comes to turning stuff into blocks. Basically he has turned Toads into such, but apparently peach could reverse this process (what? <_<) and I see many other Toads have been unaffected (those you find from castles lol). I'd have to say it's not very effective if peach, who wasn't depicted at that time to possess any powers besides being a princess, could reverse it.

Oh and if Bowser takes out star rod, Mewtwo can just embargo it and Bowser curses cause he's now somehow unable to make use of his star rod. But if he doesn't take it out, Mewtwo can just substitute and Bowser's magic is ineffective and then Mewtwo is free to embargo when bowser tries to do something else (or curses again for the ineffectiveness).

It takes full 8 seconds for bowser to turn completely invincible when using star rod, even. And that's when his speech is a speech bubble. <_<;;

Bowser is normally sluggish to walk around, but he doesn't always exaggerate his movements, play SPM or Super Mario RPG, he normally attacks right away, I could say the same about Mewtwo, we don't know how fast Pokemon go since it's all RPG-ish, and the 3d stuff look awfully slow. (that would be silly, but I'm trying to make a point...)

Bowser can most probably take a punch against Mewtwo, we still need to average out his move from RPG, it's not the same as Pokemon, I have been trying to find something.

Obviously Bowser can hurt Mewtwo, he has more than his items, his Jump flys him off screen and creates earthquakes, in Super Mario RPG his move crusher summoned a gaint sharp rock under its oppenent instantly.
Well he could punch and do basically anything, but substitute takes the hit and mewtwo's way faster than bowser so he could dodge stuff too. Earthquake can also be avoided via levitate (as seen on pokestadium 1 when you challenge mewtwo).

I need to look at his transportation again ut when he is transparent, I would imagine he is, you know walkthrough, like a boo or something...
Future sight hits trough protect and decect too, as well as fly, dig... you cannot avoid future sight unless it itself misses. D:
 

Diddy Kong

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Well, he tought himself moves in Pokemon Stadium so why not here?

Match up related: Give this one to Fox already. Don't bring knifes to a gun fight they say... Doubt a sword will do anything to a spacefighter.
 

missingnomaster

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For one thing, Mewtwo can't get Snatch and Embargo since the Trainer would have canonically already gotten them.

He can't get TMs he has no access to. Stadium's canonness is arguable anyway from what I've heard.
 

Diddy Kong

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Who says the Trainer will get them? TMs aren't involved with the story line at all, and you can easily let them lay there. Besides, can't Mewtwo just enter the Battle Tower (even though he's banned there) and win TMs from there?

What about other trainers you fight in say the Battle Tower, where did they get their TMs from?
 

justaway12

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As I said, we have no conclusive information about Bowser's magic ability when it comes to turning stuff into blocks. Basically he has turned Toads into such, but apparently peach could reverse this process (what? <_<) and I see many other Toads have been unaffected (those you find from castles lol). I'd have to say it's not very effective if peach, who wasn't depicted at that time to possess any powers besides being a princess, could reverse it.
Yes, Peach could reverse his spell, when Mario saved her, she reversed the spell and turned everyone to normal.
She was depicted with magic powers...


Oh and if Bowser takes out star rod, Mewtwo can just embargo it and Bowser curses cause he's now somehow unable to make use of his star rod. But if he doesn't take it out, Mewtwo can just substitute and Bowser's magic is ineffective and then Mewtwo is free to embargo when bowser tries to do something else (or curses again for the ineffectiveness).

It takes full 8 seconds for bowser to turn completely invincible when using star rod, even. And that's when his speech is a speech bubble. <_<;;
If Mewtwo embargos it, Bowser can do other things, transport to dodge and get out of range or turn him to stone, don't forget Crusher takes a split second.

Well he could punch and do basically anything, but substitute takes the hit and mewtwo's way faster than bowser so he could dodge stuff too. Earthquake can also be avoided via levitate (as seen on pokestadium 1 when you challenge mewtwo).
Umm, it's not really an earthquake, I just described it like that, it's more like souns waves since it hit Mario face, IIRC.

Future sight hits trough protect and decect too, as well as fly, dig... you cannot avoid future sight unless it itself misses. D:
But.....Bowser is transparent, probably like a ghost, nobody can hurt ghosts while invisible (in Marioverse, I mean).
 

Samochan

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For one thing, Mewtwo can't get Snatch and Embargo since the Trainer would have canonically already gotten them.

He can't get TMs he has no access to. Stadium's canonness is arguable anyway from what I've heard.
Pokemon mystery dungeon chars get tm's too and self-teach. <_< They are not using any trainers to do that.

If Mewtwo embargos it, Bowser can do other things, transport to dodge and get out of range or turn him to stone.
Can he really, when he's in the middle of holding an ineffective star rod in his hands? >_>

But.....Bowser is transparent, probably like a ghost, nobody can hurt ghosts while invisible (in Marioverse, I mean).
And once again, future sight hits everything. -_- Even shadow force giratina and those that use protect/detect on the turn future sight is supposed to hit. And basically there's a whole ghost type in pokeverse, but it hits ghost too, even a ghost type using a move where it vanishes completely (shadow force hits trough protect/detect as well).

And completely intangible things don't have shadows. >_>

No buts. :p

Now sleepy tiem.
 

missingnomaster

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Who says the Trainer will get them? TMs aren't involved with the story line at all, and you can easily let them lay there. Besides, can't Mewtwo just enter the Battle Tower (even though he's banned there) and win TMs from there?

What about other trainers you fight in say the Battle Tower, where did they get their TMs from?
I think I'm giving up on this part of the debate. It is really messed up. I've also been wanting to bring something up for a while now.

The Catch and Release possibility (I've refered to it as an Infinite Stupidity rule)

It's technically possible for a trainer to catch Mewtwo, teach him TMs and stuff, and release him. It would require nearly infinite levels of stupidity, but at this point, it's just as bad as Mewtwo playing adventurer and finding TMs while exploring Johto.

It would allow Mewtwo to have unrestricted access to TMs, and allow Pokemon Trainer to have multiple legendary pokemon from other regions. (Due to the stupidity part)

What do you think?
 

REL38

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For one thing, Mewtwo can't get Snatch and Embargo since the Trainer would have canonically already gotten them.

He can't get TMs he has no access to. Stadium's canonness is arguable anyway from what I've heard.
Which begs the questions:

How would Mewtwo get these TM's when he's only shown residing in a cave?
For what reason would he attempt to find them?
How would he know where to find them?

An extremely rare Pokemon walking through forests, nearby towns and cities goes against the entire "rare" aspect. If this were the case, then a Trainer would have an estimated .001% chance of encountering Mewtwo in the normal routes. But that's false because Mewtwo doesn't travel in search of TM's.

Does having different moves in Stadium mean he taught himself these moves?
Not necessarily. Different Pokemon posses different learnable moves in each game. Similar case with Mewtwo.


1. How is Mewtwo's special attack translated to Bowser?
All special attacks in Pokemon are compromised of energy/non-physical based attacks. Bowser has been shown to resist physical and non-physical based attacks with relative ease.

2. Bowser is shown teleporting across the stage in SM64.
He covers distance and it's quick.

3. Future Sight has 90% accuracy.
Bowser's constant teleportation and fire balls would make it difficult for Mewtwo to properly aim, lowering accuracy.

4. Mewtwo has pretty average defenses.
90 Defense/Sp. Defense
a fireball would deal damage.

5. Bowser's Star Rod only requires 3 seconds of start-up to become invincible.
The entire animation is over 5 seconds, but he's already in the invincible state after those 3 seconds.


Last question:

Exactly how legit are the Mystery Dungeon series?


@Sasha
The fact it's a glitch means it has zero weight here.
Teleportation means you can't hit them because they are no longer physically there.
 

justaway12

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Pokemon mystery dungeon chars get tm's too and self-teach. <_< They are not using any trainers to do that.
Ins't that non-canon? I don't ever recall Pokemon living in a perfectly natural town, where they sell everything.

Can he really, when he's in the middle of holding an ineffective star rod in his hands? >_>
You probably missed my edit :p
IDK about the stone thing, but he could transport, I didn't see anything wrong with his hands.

And once again, future sight hits everything. -_- Even shadow force giratina and those that use protect/detect on the turn future sight is supposed to hit. And basically there's a whole ghost type in pokeverse, but it hits ghost too, even a ghost type using a move where it vanishes completely (shadow force hits trough protect/detect as well).

And completely intangible things don't have shadows. >_>

No buts. :p
Yet ghosts can't be hit in Marioverse, I don't recall anything being able to hit them when they hide, no attack can hit it, there could be a difference, I wanted to make the same argument about protect not actually making the pokemon invincible, but I don't know anything about pokemon.

Also in thhe final battle he doesn't float and float revealing the key, though youtube is acting extremly bad >_>
 

Diddy Kong

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Which begs the questions:

How would Mewtwo get these TM's when he's only shown residing in a cave?
For what reason would he attempt to find them?
How would he know where to find them?


There are ways. Besides, why is Mewtwo wild anyway? For all we know, he's got a Trainer. But as Samo said, TMs are found and used by Pokemon in Mystery Dungeon, so it's not impossible. Wild Pokemon also hold items sometimes.

An extremely rare Pokemon walking through forests, nearby towns and cities goes against the entire "rare" aspect. If this were the case, then a Trainer would have an estimated .001% chance of encountering Mewtwo in the normal routes. But that's false because Mewtwo doesn't travel in search of TM's.


Mewtwo's not rare, he's a cloned Mew. But yeah, it's kinda strange I agree.

Does having different moves in Stadium mean he taught himself these moves?
Not necessarily. Different Pokemon posses different learnable moves in each game. Similar case with Mewtwo.[/qoute]

Well... Mewtwo never learned Thunderbolt or Blizzard by himself so... <_< TM usage is obvious here.

1. How is Mewtwo's special attack translated to Bowser?
All special attacks in Pokemon are compromised of energy/non-physical based attacks. Bowser has been shown to resist physical and non-physical based attacks with relative ease.


Not in SMRPG. Where they have similair stats as in Pokemon, except there's Magic Attack and Magic Defence instead of Special Attack and Special Defence.

2. Bowser is shown teleporting across the stage in SM64.
He covers distance and it's quick.


But he can't or doesn't use it all the time. Aura Sphere also is a move that never misses, so it's gotta hit at least a few times, which would likely be enough.

3. Future Sight has 90% accuracy.
Bowser's constant teleportation and fire balls would make it difficult for Mewtwo to properly aim, lowering accuracy.


Yes, 90% accuracy. IIRC Mewtwo lost to PK Flash from the Mother kids which has... HORRIBLE accuracy. Even worse than Sheer Cold, Fissure and Horn Drill in Pokemon without Lock On or Mind Reader. <_< 90% is pretty good, and it stays 90%.

And Bowser doesn't throw fire balls when teleporting from I saw in the vid.

4. Mewtwo has pretty average defenses.
90 Defense/Sp. Defense
a fireball would deal damage.


At least he can heal, unlike Bowser who's been Embargo'd.

Last question:

Exactly how legit are the Mystery Dungeon series?


Dunno, for all we know they could take place in a different set of islands?
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Fox would win. Even if Marth got all critical hits, he isn't a match for the Arwing.

Also, Mewtwo has better base stats than Bowser.
 

Sasha

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@Sasha
The fact it's a glitch means it has zero weight here.
Teleportation means you can't hit them because they are no longer physically there.
If he's not physically there, why does he leave a shadow?

And didn't we already determine that Bowser's teleport is super slow? All of Bowser's movements in SM64 are way telegraphed and have slow start up times. Mewtwo could just wait for Bowser to do something and he'd punish and win. >.>
 

missingnomaster

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I'd really like some feedback on the Catch and Release/Infinite Stupidity theory I posted above. It's very important for all pokemon characters.
 

justaway12

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There are ways. Besides, why is Mewtwo wild anyway? For all we know, he's got a Trainer. But as Samo said, TMs are found and used by Pokemon in Mystery Dungeon, so it's not impossible. Wild Pokemon also hold items sometimes.
Because we're going on brawl Mewtwo, he was never shown to have a trainer, we shouldn't assume he will.


Well... Mewtwo never learned Thunderbolt or Blizzard by himself so... <_< TM usage is obvious here.
There was a trainer there, I'm postive, it had you as the trainer, that's why he came out of a pokeball.

I'm still doubting it's canon, but I'll look into it tommorow

Not in SMRPG. Where they have similair stats as in Pokemon, except there's Magic Attack and Magic Defence instead of Special Attack and Special Defence.
But they were different, that's why the max stat for Mario is 30 and Pokemon is 100, Samo proposed to stack them on together, I've just been procrastinating >_> having trouble, and as I said before, when you leveled up, you could chose what to level up, someone could completly isolate power and focus on something else and vice versa.

But he can't or doesn't use it all the time. Aura Sphere also is a move that never misses, so it's gotta hit at least a few times, which would likely be enough.
I could say the same about Bowsers....anything >_>
His earthquake, his crusher, practically anything.

Yes, 90% accuracy. IIRC Mewtwo lost to PK Flash from the Mother kids which has... HORRIBLE accuracy. Even worse than Sheer Cold, Fissure and Horn Drill in Pokemon without Lock On or Mind Reader. <_< 90% is pretty good, and it stays 90%.

And Bowser doesn't throw fire balls when teleporting from I saw in the vid.
But he lays fireballs in the ground, if they cover him, it would be quite the pickle.

At least he can heal, unlike Bowser who's been Embargo'd.
IDK, but I THINK this was his HP in M&L RPG3
HP: 1238-1250

Dunno, for all we know they could take place in a different set of islands?
I still highly doubt it's canon.
 

Sasha

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I'd really like some feedback on the Catch and Release/Infinite Stupidity theory I posted above. It's very important for all pokemon characters.
According to the OP, "All characters have their in-game abilities." In the games, catch and release is possible, so this seems entirely relevant. This just re-supports the idea of allowing TM's.
 

PowerBomb

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PMD is a spin-off. It isn't canon at all. It has no tie-in to the version games, which have the canon storyline.

EDIT: @ above, yeah, Mewtwo is a character. But, Mewtwo is wild. He has no trainer. Without a trainer, Mewtwo can't learn TMs.

Also, Mewtwo is still hit by Earthquake. He's hit by it in the games, so he's hit by Bowser's EQ here. None of this levitating stuff.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Alright, moving on again.

VS.



Current Match-Up:
THE BRAVE WARRIOR Vs. THE TOY R.O.B.O.T

:ike: Vs. :rob:

Losers Round 1, Match 5.

Who will win? YOU decide!

Overall Results

Wins +2:


Wins +1:

,
, , ,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:, :dedede:


Neutral:

,
,
,
, ,


Loss -1:

,
,
,
,
,
,
,
, :jigglypuff:, :rob:, :gw:

Loss -2:

, ,
,
 

PowerBomb

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Did you change that to Bowser's loss? REALLY?

Robot loses. Next MU

If you did change it to Bowser's loss, I will hurt you all.

EDIT: Today isn't the first of November. :p
 

missingnomaster

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PMD is a spin-off. It isn't canon at all. It has no tie-in to the version games, which have the canon storyline.

EDIT: @ above, yeah, Mewtwo is a character. But, Mewtwo is wild. He has no trainer. Without a trainer, Mewtwo can't learn TMs.

Also, Mewtwo is still hit by Earthquake. He's hit by it in the games, so he's hit by Bowser's EQ here. None of this levitating stuff.
My catch and release thing gives him a trainer just long enough to get TMs and stuff, and then he becomes wild again afterwards. It's technically possible.

Poor ROB. Even with MKDS stuff he would get destroyed here.
 
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