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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Samochan

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Lucas and Ness are the same in spirit...

The power of the dragon again according to Leda is nothing more than the power of the earth...which is the same thing Ness got in Mother 2...

Itoi hinted in an interview when making Mother 2 that Ness, and Ninten could be the same spiritually...

And all 3 of these characters share the same battle role with similar stats...and on the website for Brawl when talking about Lucas...they say Lucas is from the same "pk family" as Ness!
Power of the earth means power of the current earth. If there's another world where you call something power of the earth, it's the power of THAT earth, not earth power of every bazillion universe and worlds there might be.

And Ness and Ninten =/= Lucas. >_>

Game protagonist =/= same person. Unless you mean Red and every recurring Pokemon trainer is the same spiritually rofl. Same PK family means they can use PK moves. And?

Ah no...its talking about the power of the dragon...not the so called dragon itself...remember...the people who think a dragon is under the island have been living in a made up story...the only thing the dragon happens to be is the power of the earth...

Except for the fact that when the needle is pulled they get stronger...and if you actually looked up what PK Love/Rockin is...than you would know that it is the true thing behind influencing the users heart...how about that? Also...I wonder what this quote means?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560

'Ness made all of the hidden powers his own.
'Ness absorbed the power of the land into his heart, and Magicant was no more.


Lucas did the same thing Ness did!
Yet, this is not Earthbound, this is Mother 3. :p Suprise suprise. If one character does something on another game, it doesn't mean another character does the exact same on another game by default. In this case, Lucas doesn't do such thing, as stated by the game text.

So stop using Ness as an example what Lucas can or cannot do. Different games and char = Different story and mechanics and works. Liek, Young Link can't do hurricane spin while WW Link can, even though both can do charged spin attack.

Right...please explain to me why Leda points out that the island they are on is what is left of "earth" if it is a whole another world?
Then it's what is left. >_> It doesn't mean they're on the same world. Besides, why would a simple island be left if Ness saved the world anyway? :p Even more proof Ness and Lucas aren't from the same world.

Telepathic abilities by themselves are not full PK...Zelda has not shown full PK skills...
Lol neither has Lucas, he has certain PSI abilities on Mother 3 and that's it. We're not assuming he does any fancy tricks behind the curtains and even if he did, we do not include those into this conversation because it's not canon. =)

Ness and Lucas have...and Mewtwo has been shown to alter time...ever look at the move trick room?

Yeah...here is another list of psychic skills sense Wikipedia did such a good job with there small list (as well as calling TK the same thing as PK)

http://www.psychic-junkie.com/list-of-psychic-abilities.html
...

I guess then pokemons that are not psychics can also alter time and space. Trick room is not a move learned only by psychic type pokemon lolz.

Bowser, Mario and Luigi must be Psionic masters too. :o Samus must be a psionic as well, she can shoot Darkbursts at will that open rifts in space. ^_^

"The user creates a bizarre area in which slower Pokémon get to move first for five turns."

Seriously, first you are saying Ness and Lucas can alter time... now you are saying Mewtwo can as well to support your (fairly ludicrous) argument about psionics capable of altering time and space? Now I've heard it all.

And your listing... astrology is a psionic ability? <_<;;; And this too: "Axiomancy: Throw an axe into a tree or post and observe where the hatchet points." What..? Your source of information is really... I dunno a good wording here in english, but it most certainly is not a good or reliable source to use here. It lists random stuff that have nothing to do with actual psionic abilities we are discussing here. Or do you mean our astrologists are now psychics? Is that what you are implying? <_< Am I a master of psionic abilities if I throw an Axe into a tree and then observe it, like your website seems to imply? =D

You, our dear _Clinton, are lacking any credibility to make any sorts of working arguments when you present evidence (what concrete evidence?) such as these. >_>
 

justaway12

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Dude...after the fight he points out that he was being careless...that shows that he wasn't fighting to his fullest power!
Yes, like every game, he says something like "Oh, you got lucky!" "Ohh, I'll got you next time" etc. He also claimed in Mario Party Advance he has the IQ of 9000 =/
Now...looking at Bowser 2...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMYzSXBuZDY

"The power of the stars as failed me...this time...
Next time I'll be in perfect condition."
Again he is known for making excuse and again look at Super Mario Galaxy, and surprise, surprise, the same moves, PLUS he changed the laws of gravity and has the ability to cover himself in rock.
The grand star there wasn't even on his person, it was under the last planet.

That isn't my point...my point is its not in his natural skill set...after all...what is stopping Lucas from buying a stop watch?
We do use items if it is on the characters item list.


Again...look up what PK is...considering how Lucas has so much control over his powers...he chances are will be able to think still...its been shown in Mother 2 with a certain foe that stops time that they are aware of what is going on...Ninten has shown to be able to screw with time as well for one of his battle skills...he uses it to run away ^_^
So the power to think in suspeded animation =/
That isn't possible.
Have they been shown to be frozen? Or was it like some extremly vague quote?



Even I'm forgetting Bowser has the power to turn Lucas into an inanimate object =/


And again, if Mario has the bulk of the stars, why doesn't he use some of that power of fire-breath, teleportation and earthquake/soundwave thing
 

Diddy Kong

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You should do some research on Shigesato Itoi...he loves talking about various philosophical issues...

Things like the Stonic Club in EB are an example of that...

And...going on with the main thing...Lucas does have issues...didn't you read the Magypsy's 1st quote from that place?

Mixolydia: Uh-oh. It looks like someone under the effects of the mushroom has come to visit. You stink. Ah, you are... Lucas and Kumatora. And Duster, too? (YES/NO) But, you still stink. I've heard all about you from Ionia. I'm one of the Magypsys, Mixolydia. If it's hard to remember, you can call me Mixsy. Here, line up. You stink. That mushroom, even if you eat only a little bit, makes you have terrible hallucinations. The weak parts of your self, or the things that have wounded you are all exposed. I'll now wake you from your dream.



Dude...after the fight he points out that he was being careless...that shows that he wasn't fighting to his fullest power!

Now...looking at Bowser 2...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMYzSXBuZDY

"The power of the stars as failed me...this time...
Next time I'll be in perfect condition."


Well at least that proves my theory about Bowser not having the full power of the stars yet...



That isn't my point...my point is its not in his natural skill set...after all...what is stopping Lucas from buying a stop watch?



Again...look up what PK fire and such is...

To use PK itself requires some control over time and space for the 100th time...

Its even shown in Mother 3 that you can stop time...the magypsy Ionia shows it off with how he has guarded the needle...and he even points out that time stop isn't the most powerful of the skills he has...Starstorm is stronger (and PK Love/Rockin is stronger than starstorm)



I already talked about the mushrooms...

Lucas and Ness are the same in spirit...

The power of the dragon again according to Leda is nothing more than the power of the earth...which is the same thing Ness got in Mother 2...

Itoi hinted in an interview when making Mother 2 that Ness, and Ninten could be the same spiritually...

And all 3 of these characters share the same battle role with similar stats...and on the website for Brawl when talking about Lucas...they say Lucas is from the same "pk family" as Ness!



Again...look up what PK is...considering how Lucas has so much control over his powers...he chances are will be able to think still...its been shown in Mother 2 with a certain foe that stops time that they are aware of what is going on...Ninten has shown to be able to screw with time as well for one of his battle skills...he uses it to run away ^_^



Ah no...its talking about the power of the dragon...not the so called dragon itself...remember...the people who think a dragon is under the island have been living in a made up story...the only thing the dragon happens to be is the power of the earth...



Except for the fact that when the needle is pulled they get stronger...and if you actually looked up what PK Love/Rockin is...than you would know that it is the true thing behind influencing the users heart...how about that? Also...I wonder what this quote means?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560

'Ness made all of the hidden powers his own.
'Ness absorbed the power of the land into his heart, and Magicant was no more.


Lucas did the same thing Ness did!



Right...please explain to me why Leda points out that the island they are on is what is left of "earth" if it is a whole another world?



Telepathic abilities by themselves are not full PK...Zelda has not shown full PK skills...

Ness and Lucas have...and Mewtwo has been shown to alter time...ever look at the move trick room?



Yeah...here is another list of psychic skills sense Wikipedia did such a good job with there small list (as well as calling TK the same thing as PK)

http://www.psychic-junkie.com/list-of-psychic-abilities.html
Okay your sounding more reasonable now but that still doesn't mean that Lucas can manipulate time and space in fights here cause he doesn't has a move like that. Simple as that really.

Lucas has nothing to stop Bowser from using the Star Rod and become invincible, that's why he lost. He'd likely won if Bowser didn't got the Star Rod so if that makes you feel any better...

@ Current match up:

It's a very difficult one... Roy I think has a offensive advantage, meaning that I think he has more strenght, battle skill and speed than Luigi, who was alway described as the timid brother. Luigi does pack a good punch with his Super Jump though, doing twice the damage he'd normally do with a regular jump (thus probably making his jumps stronger than Mario's).

Problem would be his "skill" though. As Skill is litterally a stat in Fire Emblem and determines whether you land your hit or not, togheter with the Speed and Luck of the receiver of the attack. Roy has high Luck and Speed stats, meaning he would likely dodge quite a few of hits from Luigi. Luigi then again, would probably not be able to hit Roy with his hammer, as hammers are classified as Axes in Fire Emblem. Swords > Axes > Lances > Swords is the general rule in Fire Emblem.

Going further with the stats... Luigi does has good defensive abilities though, cause he generally has loads of more defence and HP than Mario in Mario & Luigi RPG games, but less offence and speed. But then again, Roy's also probably stronger than Marth strenght wise, but just slightly.

Approaching Roy would be difficult for Luigi as unlike Marth's Falchion, Roy's Sword of Seals is capable of doing ranged attacks. Stop Watch and Super Jump would work I guess, but it won't kill Roy instantly. Roy would be able to heal with an Elixer afterwards healing all his damage.

As I said earlier, pretty difficult. Gonna read up on the Mario vs Marth posts and come back on this later.

EDIT: Oh forgot about Mario and Luigi's Super Mario Bros. abilities... Which mean Mega Mushrooms, Stars, Fire Flowers and what not. Guess Roy will lose this one to. He's got nothing to stop the Mega Mushroom and Starman.
 

_clinton

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Because he doesn't have telepathy.

Stop assuming he has abilities he never used in-game just because he's exhibiting a similar ability. If my friend and I can both do a six minute mile run, can we both jump the same length and height?
Lucas has telepathy...he shows several hints in game that he has said powers...

Being able to talk with animals is a telepathic power...
PK Flash is a telepathic power...
Things like Hypnosis, and brainshock are telepathic powers...

I don't have time to answer everything else atm so...bye for now
 

Diddy Kong

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Flint and Duster talk to animals to... >_> They aren't psychics.

Look, the thing is... Bowser has invincibility, and Lucas has got nothing to stop it. And if Lucas would be able to manipulate time and space, why the hell didn't he do so when Claus was pulling the needles? <_< He'd just manipulate time, rewind the whole thing and pull the needle himself but he didn't.
 

Samochan

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Lucas has telepathy...he shows several hints in game that he has said powers...

Being able to talk with animals is a telepathic power...
PK Flash is a telepathic power...
Things like Hypnosis, and brainshock are telepathic powers...

I don't have time to answer everything else atm so...bye for now
Of which all those powers, Lucas can only learn PK flash. =) And nowhere it mentions Lucas can also talk to animals, however Ness's entry says so. Are you sure you're not mixing those up again? =)

And apparently being a telepathic/psychic is not requirement in being capable of talking to animals in EB verse.

"It works on all enemies, and has the possibility of causing them to suffer from crying, numbness, feeling strange or becoming unconscious, depending on the power level. In Mother 3, it is actually possible to use PSI Flash to kill the King Statue, albeit with a low success rate."

So Lucas can do stuff when using PK Flash. Which don't even neccesarily point at telepathical abilities or at least the capability of mindrape and things. Status ailments =/= telepathy. The telepathical abilities belong to Kumatora on Mother 3 anyway.

Are you intentionally trying to provide us false information or something? Kumatora learning a move does not hint Lucas being capable of doing the same move.

And besides, you are in any case trying to give Lucas powers beyond what he exhibits ingame. This topic is true to their games. True to his game (aka his only game Mother 3, not earthbound or any other game), he cannot learn hypnosis or brainshock.

Your credibility is going farther and farther down the drain, _Clinton. Step it up.
 

Salem

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How does that prove Bowser was toying with him =/

That, you'll never grab me by the tail thing? He ALWAYS does that, he lacks common sense. Nothing shows that Bowser doesn't see him as a threat. It's still shown him getting stronger with LESS stars.



He still has the star rod, the fights use the characters HIGHEST potential, we are doing it with everyone, even if we didn't, he could steal it again.
and he didn't STEAL the stopwatch, he BOUGHT it.


@Lovely: He only dies in SMBDS and I think RPGs
Wait right there. lol

You can't buy items on a nuetral field. XD
 

Salem

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But this is assuming he already bought it as everybodies item list is full :p
Hmm...

If we go by true to the games, the characters do not go to the shops at all as they are ignored by them and are neither part of their story...usually, the only possible way that can only happen if the human player controls them, but we have wierd flaws here such as... pokemon trainer not being allowed to be controlled to capture mewtwo, so I think it's unfair for everybody to be controlled to be able to obtain such items sense the characters have to be controlled to do so.

So... there is something wrong with this thread.

Also I noticed while I was gone...

People are fighting over Ingame/Game mechs and Storyline/canon, WTF?
If we are controlling the characters than there are basicly only ingame/game mechs, you can't change a cutscene or attack characters with it as there is no such thing in their game. lol

Cheap Example:

The ending of Twilight Princess, when you press A to finish off ganon in that one cutscene you can't use that against other characters as there is no such cutscene with those characters in it.
 

Samochan

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The ending of Twilight Princess, when you press A to finish off ganon in that one cutscene you can't use that against other characters as there is no such cutscene with those characters in it.
It's Link's simple sword thrust aka finishing blow move that wolf/hero of time spirit thingy teaches you. <_< Link uses that move to finish ganondorf. Certainly useable against other enemies too.

If a character doesn't canonically exhibit an ability, then that character shouldn't get said ability.
We can't assume Bowser can go shopping (or is even allowed into the shops lol). So unless Bowser himself uses stopwatch on any game or when playable, you are able to buy stopwatch for him, stopwatch and items such as that would be unusable for bowser. Let's not make exceptions here for any character.

I made same sorta argument for mewtwo, yet it was denided. No double standarding pls. =)

Poketrainer has the ability to wifi. There's whole building ingame. So why limit event pokes then? Same thing.
 

Diddy Kong

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Uhm technically it's possible, so why not? Only thing is he can't use Mewtwo against Mewtwo himself. :p

EDIT: Before saying I'm slow, I've got to say I disagree with Samo here. If we exclude Mario, Peach, Bowser and Luigi to use their items which they bought in a shop why are we allowing Pokemon characters TMs again?

Characters may use their items, no mather where they come from as long as they can normally get it. Dunno how to explain this really, but let's not disallow items here for we'll likely have to do this thing all over again...

The "rules" here are vague, but it seems we're not disagreeing a lot anymore here at least so let's keep it like that.

Ohh and dayum I'm slow...
 

missingnomaster

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Pokemon Trainer is not allowed to get Mewtwo, yet he can.

So he's allowed to get Mewtwo, right?
Obviously He can't have Mewtwo for the Mewtwo matchup, but other than that, I see no reason why he couldn't get it.

Depending on what logic we use though, it may be better for him to not have Mewtwo. Though I don't think it currently works that way.
 

Samochan

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Guys guys.

Let's not make exceptions for any character. Even if it's Bowser. I know you guys love bowser with all your heart, but thing is, if we allowed Bowser items he doesn't canonically ever use... we are then breaking canon. So to keep it fair, everyone else could break canon in the limits that they can possibly exhibit some ability.


It won't work.

However if Boozer can buy stopwatch on mario RPG for example or when he's played controlled, fair game.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Guys guys.

Let's not make exceptions for any character. Even if it's Bowser. I know you guys love bowser with all your heart, but thing is, if we allowed Bowser items he doesn't canonically ever use... we are then breaking canon. So to keep it fair, everyone else could break canon in the limits that they can possibly exhibit some ability.


It won't work.

However if Boozer can buy stopwatch on mario RPG for example or when he's played controlled, fair game.
I think I'm misunderstanding. Doesn't Bowser use stop watch in Paper Mario games?
 

Samochan

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Samo, tat's what I meant :p

He buys a stopwatch when playable.

@Ray: Yes.
Aah, okay then. :3

Thne it should be fair and square.

EDIT: Before saying I'm slow, I've got to say I disagree with Samo here. If we exclude Mario, Peach, Bowser and Luigi to use their items which they bought in a shop why are we allowing Pokemon characters TMs again?
I made my case with TM's not requiring trainer in pokeverse on PMD, alongside that pokemon use pick up ability to collect tm's themselves and even when you transfer pokemon from rby to gsc, some have tm's with em. ;3

Pokes without trainer here are wild anyway, so they'd naturally exhibit what they do without trainer such as in PMD. Actually, now that I think about it... the Wild pokemon are only in full potential when on PMD setting, while trained ones in main series. o.o

Like, you normally need a trainer to even collect berries on the pokemon games, yet pokemons have hold berries with them when you catch them from the wild.

On HGSS and DPP Amity square where you can drag your pokemon along, they can independantly collect items from the ground. On HGSS you can get a rare shining leaf and on Amity square, you can get items for your fashion case.
 

Diddy Kong

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^ Uhm yeah kinda like that. :p Samo, Bowser's actually playable in Super Paper Mario so he's canoncally getting those items.
 

Samochan

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Roy has things... but what does he have? :/ Does anyone know? <_>

Cause stopwatch only freezes time for few seconds and while Luigi can whack Roy in due that time, it has activation time of 4 seconds and Roy can do something nasty to Luigi before that. And afterwards if Roy isn't pwned enough, he could still make a comeback if he has something nasty up his sleeve.
 

Salem

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Roy has things... but what does he have? :/ Does anyone know? <_>

Cause stopwatch only freezes time for few seconds and while Luigi can whack Roy in due that time, it has activation time of 4 seconds and Roy can do something nasty to Luigi before that. And afterwards if Roy isn't pwned enough, he could still make a comeback if he has something nasty up his sleeve.
Roy sucks.
Gawd, I know what he has and none of it is good enough for him to win. >_>
Besides elixir stalling, magic walls and the works.
He could possibly win if he uses the rune sword however, as that steals health when it hits.
 

Samochan

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Magic walls? ;3 And 4 seconds is a lot of time to hit someone with Rune sword that omg steals health. :o He could just keep replenishing his health after every stopwatch Luigi does.

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Seals

This sword?

"Using the Divine Weapons, the eight heroes fought their way into the Demon Dragon's lair and found a young girl, who transformed once the heroes attacked, and Hartmut used the mighty Sword of Seals to defeat the dragon. However, Hartmut could not bring himself to kill her, but at the same time could not allow her to reap slaughter on his own species. Hartmut decided to simply seal her away using the Sword of Seals."


Whoa a good mighty divine weapon he got here. :o

"This happens after the other legendary weapons start glowing and pointing in the direction of the Shrine of Seals. Roy draws the sword, triggering his promotion. In the final four chapters, he duels and defeats the errant King Zephiel, who is wielding the Eckesachs, kills Yahn and finally vanquishes the demon dragon Idenn. Depending on the various supports and actions taken throughout the game, several different endings can occur. All of them generally explain that Idenn's soul was recovered"


Sword of Seals can seal and unseal things. Hmm... couldn't it seal Luigi? =D

Eckesachs: "The weapon itself is very unique in design. Having no known sheath, the blade is simply carried around in a scepter form instead of being in a case. When it is actually used, the sword mechanically morphs into a huge blade of overwhelming power. Zephiel transforms it into a sword by spinning and thrusting it. The sword apparently has some affinity with the element of electricity, because it draws thunder when Zephiel attacks with a critical hit and sends a shock wave when he attacks from a distance. "

And Roy beat the wielder of this thing? <_> Well he can't be completely eyesore then...
 

Salem

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Magic walls? ;3 And 4 seconds is a lot of time to hit someone with Rune sword that omg steals health. :o He could just keep replenishing his health after every stopwatch Luigi does.

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Seals

This sword?
Sealed Sword is a sucky fire sword, it does **** damage but needs to be a critical hit to actually be dangerous vs Luigi.

The magic wall is the Lightrune, it creates a wall... yeah.

Rune Sword is nice as it's magic and not really a sword even though a lance still ***** it and so does light magic, but anyway... due to luigi not having magic resistance this will do massive damage and give back a nice chunk of health back to Roy. XD

Edit:

Oh snaps, Sealed Sword heals? O_o
I didn't remember that...

But Rune Sword is still some what better...
 

PowerBomb

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Salem, don't bring up the ranged counter thing.

Such as Mario throwing a fireball at Marth and then Marth somehow range-countering it. I don't care if the game mechanics work like that, that makes little sense, even for a video game. Unless there's some explanation behind it (like, a reason), then it shouldn't even work.
 

Samochan

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What about Sealed Sword's ability to seal things? =) Couldn't he just seal Luigi? Or some of his items/vacuum at least?

Why wouldn't range counter make sense? <_> You have more time to accurately counter things coming from further away, aka you have more time to react accordingly. Then, lots of these videogame things weaken/diminish when they are out of range.

Makes perfect sense to me. >_>
 

Salem

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Salem, don't bring up the ranged counter thing.

Such as Mario throwing a fireball at Marth and then Marth somehow range-countering it. I don't care if the game mechanics work like that, that makes little sense, even for a video game. Unless there's some explanation behind it (like, a reason), then it shouldn't even work.
*Is bringing up the ranged counter thing as you reminded me of it*

Depends on Mario's range/how far is he.

The range is only like 2 squares infront/side/back of said characters, depending on what equiped ranged weapon, he can counter attack.
Whatever 2 squares is worth due to you and your dumb realisim in this thread.
WHICH DOESN'T EXIST.

@Samo:

I don't remember but I don't think it actually seals things that way...
 

PowerBomb

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Salem, you don't make the rules in this thread. Raizen said there is some added realism. He's the OP, not you. He makes the rules.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Alright, moving on again.

Vs.


Vs.



Current Match-Up:
THE MAN Vs. THE SPACE WOLF

Falcon Vs. Wolf

:falcon: Vs. :wolf:

Losers Round 2, Match 5.

Who will win? YOU decide!

Overall Results

Wins +2:

:samus2:, :ganondorf:, :mario2:, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:, :ike:, :ness2:, :pit:

Wins +1:

:sonic:, :kirby2:, :peach:, :zelda:, :metaknight:, :luigi2:

Neutral:

:snake:, :fox:, :diddy:, :lucario:, :falcon:, :pt:, :pikachu:, :pichu:, :dedede:, :yoshi2:, :wolf:, :mewtwo:, :bowser2:

Loss -1:

:link2:, :lucas:, :falco:, :roymelee:

Loss -2:

:zerosuitsamus:, :dk2:, :marth:, :rob:, :gw:, :wario:, :popo:, :olimar:, :jigglypuff:
 

justaway12

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Over the hills and far away...
Salem, what Samo said,that's what I meant in our PM :p

I'm awful at putting things into words, we don't want full realism, we'll just go JOE!'s thread for that, full realism is fun sometimes, I used to be a frequent poster there, still kinda am.
 

Salem

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To answer the pm's.. (I hope you don't mind me doing it here).

I'm in for a bit of realism... cause I'm a logical person, I couldn't fanthom a situation where Lucas, for example, could survive a situation where Phazon is shot at him, because ingame he has no defence against organic, mutagenic substance such as that. If it were only game mechanics, Lucas could survive anything cause he has lol health, which contradicts Metroid universe mechanics where Phazon kills almost everything exposured to it, and everything else it mutates. Game mechanics versus game mechanics would need some logic and realism added in there somewhere to even work out.

So yea, I'm in for a "bit" of logical realism (if you can even call it that). But full realism means Snake wins too much if he can just bust your brains out, regardless if you survive getting thrown into lava and similar things. :p Cause surviving lava itself is not realistic, thus I'm adverse in accepting full realism as it wouldn't work in this discussion, cause full realism would also mean we wouldn't be true to their games cause they're not realistic lol.
Lucas... I don't remember much about him, but that Phazon will basicly glitch the game for him. XD

But a bit of realisim like that means Samus doesn't really have...

I rather not say. XD

But it screws alot more characters than you think thats why it'd be better if it left,
Mostly RPG characters, they need it to survive longer.
 
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