Smash to the Future on hiatus for the summer!

[PEEF!]

Fixed for truth and justice.

Except I don't wobble even when legal, and haven't for my last 5 tournaments so yeah.

 

[BIG C]

Except I don't wobble even when legal, and haven't for my last 5 tournaments so yeah.

Oh man last 5 tournaments. That's a ****ton of 'em. How many tournaments have you wobbled at though? Wobbling is an imbalanced technique and can easily lead to a free stock. I've done it before in friendlies because I don't play ICs. A free stock that can happen no matter the environment (i.e doesn't require a wall. a wall that ends up being removed anyway) should be banned. I don't understand how you can argue for an infinite that works on every character in the game that is truly an infinite.

Instead of calling it a scrub tournament why don't you come up with an argument as to why it shouldn't be banned and contact the T.O with said reasoning. I personally watched Wobbling destroy two people that were considered very good vs Chu but because of wobbling Chu destroyed them both in crews. Vidjo and Jiano who had both in prior tournaments either beaten or had extremely close sets with Chu. But since Chu could wobble in crews he proceeded to 3 or 4 stock Vidjo and do the same to Jiano. When you can go from such a close margin to such a vast margin, with one technique, it's pretty clear that it's either a game changing technique or a broken technique. Most people have sided on broken, and until you can come up with a better argument than "don't get grabbed" I'm sure that people will continue to side on the it is broken side.

 

[ORLY]

oh lord, not this again

 

[BIG C]

oh lord, not this again

Hey, I'm done, I've said my peace and am not going to post any further on the subject.

 

[john!]

yes, ic's with wobbling are BROKEN TIER

BETTER THAN FOX

LOL

 

[PEEF!]

yes, ic's with wobbling are broken tier

better than fox

lol

And on the day they realized that banning a technique that makes the 8th best character leap up the tier list to...8th, it officially became irrational.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Is wobbling generally legal for east and west coast?
generally legal for east and west coast?
generally legal?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its up to the tournaments. Smashing grounds while i ran them always had wobbling legal, or at least the recent/consistent ones; i think there was one back in the day where i had it banned cause i remember big c trying to find a way around the rule saying stuff like "well if i alternate ftilt once does that count as wobbling? what if i ftilt then jab then ftilt then throw?"

Genesis 2 had wobbling legal, though i think the pound 4 and 5 had it banned (dont quote me on that).

 

[Oro?!]

If Pichu had the ability to take a stock with a technique with 0 chance for escape once initiated, and it takes player control away, I would want it gone. It has nothing to do with how good ICs are Peef, it's just that this is the only game where every single conflict that occurs, you are given the options to DI/tech/do nothing, and when you are forced to do nothing, it can be really annoying in Melee. If it was all over the place then why would anyone care.

 

[sanchaz]

wobbling should be legal. done. I don't see the top25 players complaining. lol, picture mango complaining about wobbling.

big c: do you know, fox, falco, captain falcon, a little bit of sheik/marth, JIGGLY****INGPUFF, maybe ganon, and perhaps others wreck ic's?.

 

[ORLY]

i will never unban wobbling mostly because i don't care if it's on or off

and i choose off

it's comin' up this weekend! hyyyyyyype

 

[PEEF!]

i will never unban wobbling mostly because i don't care if it's on or off

and i choose off

And that specific lack of respect (not characteristic of you I'd say) for players other than yourself in this situation and lack of understanding as to the effect of your own ruleset is why I labeled this as another scrub tournament.

Oro?!, sounds like you want a jigglypuff banned on your weak conclusion that because something is "annoying in melee" it should be banned. PLEASE i do not even have to give you examples of things that annoy everyone in Melee.

 

[Oro?!]

Don't put words in my mouth rofl. I said it is an outlier and comparable to mewtwo's soul stunner glitch, or that IC's freeze glitch. You are essentially frozen until your oppenent decides to stop.

I don't really care if wobbling is legal or not because I make sure every IC's I play have the least enjoyable experience playing melee whether wobbling is on or not.

Annoying was a bad word choice, but read the context and don't just spin **** into your favor.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Chris, i have to agree with peef a little bit about the rules. While eventually a TO has to say "its my rules deal with it", things should always be given an objective analysis first. I have always left wobbling unbanned but there is an argument i've been thinking about recently as to how wobbling breaks the mold of other combos in the game.

Every combo in the game can be escaped if anticipated with proper (S)DI, the other exception to this is grab combos which have conditionals. Chain grabs have a limited duration, IC's dair CGs can be SDI'd and even handoffs have a limited space to work in. Wobbling breaks this mold by not allowing the opponent any defensive counter to the technique even if they see it coming. This results in a degenerative metagame surrounding this technique, compared to something like rest which has a strategic counter of dying off the side quickly for a free punish.

 

[john!]

i disagree that there's no counterplay to wobbling... if you are a spacie and you get grabbed by a good marth on fd, you should die. if you are a mid-weight low tier and you get grabbed by sheik, you should die. ic's have a harder time setting up and executing their 0-death than these characters do. the counterplay is keeping the ic's separated and not getting grabbed.

whether anyone agrees with me or not, wobbling being banned isn't that big of a deal, seeing as trail doesn't wobble, peef doesn't wobble, i don't wobble, and that's pretty much all of the ic's users who would show up to a midwest tournament. the ban isn't anything that would seriously alter results or attendance. that being said, i think pro-ban arguments have always been extremely weak, and banning it feels kind of unfair to people who try to succeed with a relatively underused character.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thats not true john. If you are grabbed on FD by marth he can only chaingrab until 20-30% and then he must hit you. Thats really a small window. Everything after that point has (S)DI counters to prevent death, and at worst should result in an edgeguard. I know of no way marth can actually send fox through a blastzone without fox DIing so poorly he gets spiked. In any case, there are multiple choices by both offender and defender. Compare this to wobbling which has no movement, no input from the defender, and is in every way undynamic. There ceases to be choices from the defender and the result is a full KO through a blastzone, not even an edgeguard. In this way it is unlike any other technique in the game, and that is enough of a logical leap for us to ban stages so i don't see a reason for us to not be able to ban a technique in the same fashion.

If you say "oh it doesn't even change where ICs are on the tier list" then i say that kels is going to win whether we have mute city on or not. I hope you can see where these arguments coincide, and I hope we are all able to see how strong of a stage mute city. Alternatively I could say "if it doesn't even change where ICs are on the tier list, then why do you care whether its on or not" and you wouldn't really have a logical way to argue it. In any case, this argument is flawed.

 

[Rat]

I think grabbing should be banned.

Like you can't do anything for a couple seconds. You basically stop playing the game. That's stupid.

Well you can wiggle out, but that's dumb.

:trollface:

 

[PEEF!]

Chris, i have to agree with peef a little bit about the rules. While eventually a TO has to say "its my rules deal with it", things should always be given an objective analysis first. I have always left wobbling unbanned but there is an argument i've been thinking about recently as to how wobbling breaks the mold of other combos in the game.

Every combo in the game can be escaped if anticipated with proper (S)DI, the other exception to this is grab combos which have conditionals. Chain grabs have a limited duration, IC's dair CGs can be SDI'd and even handoffs have a limited space to work in. Wobbling breaks this mold by not allowing the opponent any defensive counter to the technique even if they see it coming. This results in a degenerative metagame surrounding this technique, compared to something like rest which has a strategic counter of dying off the side quickly for a free punish.

If you're truly interested in real analysis, I will answer those concerns Sveet =]

First, Rest: Dying off the side quickly for a free punish is very often not an option even for fastfallers, and is even rarer an option for floaty characters that can't (in this case) benefit as much from "bad" DI and fastfalling (ICs on dreamland when rested at most percentages cannot manage a punish if jiggs rests when not on a platform). It is also (and importantly) NEVER an option on the last stock of a match.

Also, proving that wobbling breaks the mold of other combo's does not prove it's "banworthyness". There are two burdens to overcome. The burden will be on the banner to first prove that it is relevantly different than any other combo (that you want to keep in the game, otherwise your own argument will compel you to ban rest, shine, etc) and ONLY THEN can they try to prove that "what makes it different makes it worthy of being banned".

Example of the first burden not being satisfied: "Wobbling is a low-risk, high-reward, and easy to execute technique that leads to certain death at any percent above 40%".

Shines offstage and combos into them immediately satisfy all of these criteria. Combos into rest are very low risk in many situations and especially against many characters (Peach for example.) People may respond that resting is high risk because you could be punished, but we all know how safe comboing into rest is, and it is only high risk in rare situations. This common anti-wobbling argument also assumes that grabbing is low risk, which is quite debatable considering that preying on grab-happy ICs is so easy, and against good players a missed grab might as well be a broken shield.

Example of the second criteria not being satisfied: "Wobbling cannot be DIed out of, it is infinite, and it is uncounterable once started. This means it should be banned." This is one of the more common anti-wobbling arguments. It fails on all counts. First, this argument fails to show how "I can't DI it" is actually a bannable offense. The fact that it CAN be infinite matters none, because you can mandate that it ends at 300%. Wallah, no longer call it an infinite, but a 300% combo. "But 300% is more than any other combo" <--This is true, but is it relevant? No matter what SOME combo will be the biggest combo of them all. If being the biggest combo is relevant, then it would be rational (and obligatory) to continue banning combos until you banned them all. Lastly, being uncounterable once started means nothing. Getting shined offstage is uncounterable once started. "But you were offstage. You were in a bad position already!" To that I say, "You were in a bad position when you got grabbed. Don't get grabbed."

 

[john!]

you may be right about marth, i have just seen too many 0-death marth chaingrabs by m2k to think that it is anything but a free kill if the marth player is good enough. the counterplay to wobbling is mashing out and hoping the ic's player messes up, much like the counter to a sheik chaingrab is mashing out and hoping they mess up, or much like the counter to a fox shine above 60% on many characters is trying to sdi out and hoping they mess up. all of these result in death given the right conditions.

 

[FrootLoop]

banning stuff because it effects the tier list or the metagame in a way that doesn't completely over centralize one character or technique is dumb.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peef im all for listening to arguments and debating, but did you even read my posts? Not only did you strawman, you didnt even attempt to make the argument similar to any i had presented...

you may be right about marth, i have just seen too many 0-death marth chaingrabs by m2k to think that it is anything but a free kill if the marth player is good enough. the counterplay to wobbling is mashing out and hoping the ic's player messes up, much like the counter to a sheik chaingrab is mashing out and hoping they mess up, or much like the counter to a fox shine above 60% on many characters is trying to sdi out and hoping they mess up. all of these result in death given the right conditions.

The point is that the metagame is allowed to move forward in these cases. Strategies and techniques can be applied to make the encounter dynamic. For example, look at fox's uthrow->uair combo. It was once considered a very guaranteed kill combo, many people could barely DI the throw. Now people SDI has moved in such a way that getting killed by that combo is considered a mistake. Fox's shine combos on the ground can be SDI'd to allow an escape. Sheik's chain grab can be DI'd to force the combo to end, either by going off stage or going to a platform, not to mention most characters can jump out starting around 60%. At absolute best, sheik is only left in edgeguard position, no better than marth was in your previous example. These encounters allow for the person on the defensive to make many choices. In 5 years SDI might move to the point where players start doing multiple instances of SDI down in order to tech kill moves.

Wobbling allows no advances in the metagame surrounding it. It is degenerative. The person on the defense can do nothing that equates to anything even minusculey different than just putting their controller down for the rest of the stock. In 5 years the dynamic between wobbler and wobblee will be the same as it always has.

 

[Tink]

LOLL...another wobbling debate...awesome.

john, ur completly wrong on marth....only m2k gets those spikes/chaingrabs....no other marth has done it as consistent in the entire history of the game, even ken didnt chaingrab like m2k....and azen, just stood around and wavedashed to mindgame you the whole time. its not easy....try playing marth in high stakes tournaments.

the "dont get grabbed" statement needs to die already.....seriously....
wobbling puts it into your head that, if grabbed, your gonna die almost always...but thats not even the worse part imo...its the mindset that wobbling puts u in. jusssss because wobbling is banned or not, ur gonna be constantly thinking of that wobbling, which then leads to even more opportunities that the icies woudlnt normally get.

wobbling isnt just a stock gone, its a mindset change thats far worse :/.

also, whennnn did this turn nottt into the MW>? our rules were always janky....we even tried the standard rules for a long time in hopes that the "MW needs to get better, so we need the standard ruleset"....and in the past 2 years, it doesnt seem to have helped :/

Edit: my internets currently janky(like wobbling), and i prolly wont respond to the nay sayers of this post...but thats not cause ur resopnses are good or right(cause they wont be )...this tournament should be fun either way, and i shoulddd be here i think...
who needs a partner!?

 

[Oro?!]

Wobbling is an outlier to melee.

Rest is not a good argument even though it is an imbalanced move. There are a lot of imbalanced moves in top/high tier.

Most everything you mention is situationally potent PEEF, but Wobbling is 100% if you have a grab.

Also the 300% infinite thing has nothing to do with something being an infinite, but actually using infinites to stall the clock.

You are kinda bad at arguing.

 

[john!]

i think rest is a pretty good example. jigglypuff can execute a rest at roughly the same percent that ic's can execute a wobble, they both lead to death, and resting is arguably easier to pull off on most characters.

it's true that wobbling has no counters once the technique has started; the counterplay happens before the technique starts.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

we even tried the standard rules for a long time in hopes that the "MW needs to get better, so we need the standard ruleset"....and in the past 2 years, it doesnt seem to have helped :/

WATTTT weve gotten so much better since we started the standard ruleset

 

[darkatma]

yeah midwest has definitely been getting better imo

DEKU TAKE ME TO THIS TOURNAMENT!

 

[PEEF!]

Peef im all for listening to arguments and debating, but did you even read my posts? Not only did you strawman, you didnt even attempt to make the argument similar to any i had presented...

Did you read MY post? I addressed the Rest DI>Punish thing directly. I was in class so you guys posted like 5 more things before I finished mine, but I actually addressed your argument in depth.

Wobbling is not degenerative to the metagame. Because of it, spacing and proper shield pressure have become even more important, and good players have sufficiently found ways around wobbling completely, when (before wobbling and other chaingrabs were big) it was easy for ICs to grab. Metagame advancement.

As far as the "once you are getting wobbled you cant do ****" argument, that is no good as well. You are setting up the argument improperly. You are ignoring the completely avoidable and metagame building part of the wobble - the getting (or not getting) grabbed with synced ice climbers at over 30% part. You are taking these conditions for granted, as if they "always are" there. The key is avoiding getting grabbed by synced ICs over 30%. This part is avoidable, and counterable wouldn't you say? If I can ignore that you have to get grabbed by synced Ice Climbers at over 30% in order to excecute a wobble (and then call wobbling imbalanced) then I can ignore that you have to be significantly offstage and in hitstun and over 100% to die automatically to Falco's dair, and then I can point out how Falcos dair always leads to death, and there is nothing you can do. You are out of SDI range, no DI will save you, etc. It seems funny, but it is exactly what you are doing. You are focusing on how inescapeable the wobble is in certain circumstances, but you are not pointing out how plausible (good players say how EASY) it is to avoid getting grabbed by synced ice climbers at over 30%.

Wobbling is an outlier to melee.

Rest is not a good argument even though it is an imbalanced move. There are a lot of imbalanced moves in top/high tier.

Most everything you mention is situationally potent PEEF, but Wobbling is 100% if you have a grab.

Also the 300% infinite thing has nothing to do with something being an infinite, but actually using infinites to stall the clock.

You are kinda bad at arguing.

I will ignore your "kinda bad at arguing" statement and just remember you as the person who ended his ****, no-form argument with those words.

Most everything you mention is situationally potent PEEF, but Wobbling is 100% if you have a grab.

First of all, not true. Wobbling is not 100% ever because everyone messes it up, but even assuming that it could be performed frame perfectly, it requires not just "a grab" but a synced non-dash grab at over 30% with both nana and popo. Otherwise it can be wiggled out of. The Ice Climbers have a very hard time getting this grab, and taking it for granted ignores reality.

This makes Wobbling one of the many situationally potent moves, including Falco's dair (at certain percentages offstage it is a guaranteed kill) and even Falcon Punch. This may sound silly, but realize the similar form of the argument. After Dairing a space animal at 70% with no DI, Falcon Punch is a COMPLETELY SAFE AND UNAVOIDABLE KILL MOVE when executed properly. You might say, "But look, you have to get a Dair at a certain percentage with Falcon." This seems to satisfy people. Why when I say "But look, you have to get a synced standing or jump cancelled grab with both Ice Climbers at over 30%" people are not satisfied? Sure the condition of Falcon Punch being a safe and unavoidable kill move may be harder to satisfy than the conditions required to wobble, but you have to recognize the similarity to the form of the argument. The point being EVEN Falcon Punch (obviously a "bad" move) can be labeled "broken" and a "COMPLETELY SAFE AND UNAVOIDABLE KILL MOVE" if we give it generous presupposed conditions. The same is the case for wobbling.

Look. I'm no idiot. I know why you want wobbling banned. The same reasons I used to before I came to my senses about it.

1. Getting wobbled is the worst feeling in the game. You forget about the fact that you just failed a simple L-Cancel and would probably have died to most characters. You forget about the fact that you were just predictable enough to have been dash-dance grabbed by a character with a mediocre dash dance and a relatively small grab range, then in your disbelief missed your tech and got jab resetted into a wobble. I get it. It sucks. However, if you don't let those mistakes happen, you suddenly don't worry about it anymore. If you do let those things happen, then you will continue to lose to Ice Climber players, along with Fox players, Marth players, Sheik players, and so-on without discrimination. Thats just the way it is.

2. Watching wobbling can ruin hype. It's not fun to watch. Yeah well sh*t. We aren't making a movie, nobody is compelling you to put wobbles in your combo videos, and nobody is banning the matchup named "Armada vs Hbox". To those who feel like wobbling isn't fun to watch, but think resting is "okay", I encourage you to watch matches closely where wobbling is allowed. Focus on the intensity of the spacing from both players. Watch for baited grabs and their punishments, and let your heart pound when shield pressure begins. If he does get the grab and is perfect at wobbling, just think of it as a multi-hitting rest.
"Okay, that stock is over now. He needs to not fall for that trick again. He needs to abuse that grab-happy IC. He needs to learn from that spacing error; he can't do that anymore. He needs to focus more on his technical game when approaching like that. (Here is the important part) And if he manages to make those adjustments, he can win just like hundreds of others have when facing competent ICs, and if he doesn't make those adjustments and just herp-derps into another grab, perhaps he is not the fighting game player I should be cheering for."

 

[ORLY]

tl;dr



I'll say something when I get home on a computer

 

[darkatma]

I have to agree with peef on this one.

Sure, wobbling is powerful, and it often plays a huge role in hurting mindset, but it does require a certain amount of setup. Matchups that are affected the most by this are ones where it is relatively easy to grab a character, such as marth, samus, ganon, etc.. But the players should be spacing better anyways, not simply hoping that the ICs player will mess up an ordinary chaingrab to let them escape.

Big tournaments have kept wobbling ON and it's been empirically shown that wobbling does not affect overall results. Ice Climbers don't even move anywhere on the tier list with the inclusion of wobbling, as far as I can tell. Also banning a part of a well balanced game just puts it down to the level of brawl. Everything that is put into Melee is something that you can adapt to, and not an impossible or broken tactic.

So play as excruciatingly careful as you want against Ice Climbers, but accept that wobbling is part of the game and move on. And continue playing to win.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Did you read MY post? I addressed the Rest DI>Punish thing directly. I was in class so you guys posted like 5 more things before I finished mine, but I actually addressed your argument in depth.

Oh well you started talking about conditionals and all this other stuff in like the 2nd paragraph... i read it all but was like "huh what does this have to do with anything i said". As for the rest DI punish thing, the fact that certain characters have worse punishments has nothing to do with the fact that they do get a free hit. As for your claims that certain characters can't do this and its "very often not an option even for fastfallers", i think you are exaggerating quite a bit.

Wobbling is not degenerative to the metagame.

It allows for no further advancement defensively. See: (S)DI stuffs in my other posts

As far as the "once you are getting wobbled you cant do ****" argument, that is no good as well. You are setting up the argument improperly. You are ignoring the completely avoidable and metagame building part of the wobble - the getting (or not getting) grabbed with synced ice climbers at over 30% part.

"Don't get grabbed" isn't a valid argument because you will eventually get grabbed, there is a thing called lag.

This part is avoidable, and counterable wouldn't you say?

avoidable- yes. counterable- no.

but you are not pointing out how plausible (good players say how EASY) it is to avoid getting grabbed by synced ice climbers at over 30%.

Why don't we ask m2k how hard it is to get wobbled

I will ignore your "kinda bad at arguing" statement and just remember you as the person who ended his ****, no-form argument with those words.

Contradicting yourself with-in the same sentence. Nice.

but even assuming that it could be performed frame perfectly, it requires not just "a grab" but a synced non-dash grab at over 30% with both nana and popo. Otherwise it can be wiggled out of. The Ice Climbers have a very hard time getting this grab, and taking it for granted ignores reality.

You've repeated this many times, but i'll address it in one place: Isn't it fairly normal for ICs to have a synced grab when they are grabbing from neutral position? Is this conditional not true for every other IC grab combo? Don't ICs have CGs and combos that don't require synced nana? Can't these combos and CGs be lead into a synced grab? Does it even matter how absurd the conditionals are to ban it (didn't we ban freeze glitch)?

This makes Wobbling one of the many situationally potent moves, including Falco's dair (at certain percentages offstage it is a guaranteed kill) and even Falcon Punch. This may sound silly, but realize the similar form of the argument.

Pro-tip: usually when things sound silly, the argument is wrong.

After Dairing a space animal at 70% with no DI, Falcon Punch is a COMPLETELY SAFE AND UNAVOIDABLE KILL MOVE when executed properly.

False. The fox or falco has many choices he can make, such as DIing or in the future potentially other DI techniques such as multiple instances of SDI to remain grounded and tech negating the aerial followup altogether.

You might say, "But look, you have to get a Dair at a certain percentage with Falcon." This seems to satisfy people. Why when I say "But look, you have to get a synced standing or jump cancelled grab with both Ice Climbers at over 30%" people are not satisfied? Sure the condition of Falcon Punch being a safe and unavoidable kill move may be harder to satisfy than the conditions required to wobble, but you have to recognize the similarity to the form of the argument. The point being EVEN Falcon Punch (obviously a "bad" move) can be labeled "broken" and a "COMPLETELY SAFE AND UNAVOIDABLE KILL MOVE" if we give it generous presupposed conditions. The same is the case for wobbling.

your strawmans are getting better, ill give you that. You are quite good at ignoring the argument I have presented and instead moving the debate to talk about conditionals (for some reason [oh wait its cause you can't refute my argument])

Look. I'm no idiot. I know why you want wobbling banned. The same reasons I used to before I came to my senses about it.

Really. Really? I am really surprised you are throwing this out there since your make opponent in this debate is me. You know me. I have always argued for wobbling being legal. When we first met in cary's basement, we played a tourney match and you said "i wont wobble if you don't pick cruise" and i said "do what you want, i dont care about being wobbled". On top of that, I am a pretty unbiased debater; I debate for what is right not for what benefits me. I'm not even going to respond to the rest because its so terrible, assumptive and condescending that I would have to agree with kyle on this one: you are pretty terrible at this debate thing.

 

[PEEF!]

I've said my part, really, and I can't go on answering the same things over and over. I feel like I will bore people more than I already am.

You said that it isn't possible to counter ICs grab. If you won't agree there then there is nothing i can do.

Your "Pro-tip" is obviously not a philosophy tip, because silly examples are often the best in showing mistakes in the opponents reasoning.

I have also been responding sometimes to you, and sometimes to Oro. Most of that last post was to Oro but you tell me I was dodging when I can't answer erry mufuka at once, so I was answering directly his problems.

I think my piece has been said and I have answered every serious concern with wobbling that I can think of and that I was presented. If you have something VERY SPECIFIC that I haven't answered, ask it straight. If I have covered it I will just quote myself.

 

[Scythe]

why isn't this sort of thing done in pms?

 

[PEEF!]

why isn't this sort of thing done in pms?

The general benefit of those undecided?

 

[Dekuschrub]

why is this discussion being held at all?

who cares that much about the wobbling rules? it goes both ways. The data shows banned or not banned ICs place the same in tourneys and in matchups. Besides, everyone that plays ICs is basically relying on abusing their weird game mechanics to compensate for their terrible fundamentals that apply to all characters.

 

[Oro?!]

Too much salt is bad for your heart.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I really don't care about this argument peef. I just wish we could talk about the original point I made instead of branching off into everything all at once.

 

[PEEF!]

I really don't care about this argument peef. I just wish we could talk about the original point I made instead of branching off into everything all at once.

I guess you don't just want to simply raise the concern so I know exactly what you want me to answer.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Huh?

I wanted to just talk about how wobbling is completely unlike any other combo in the game in the sense that there are no defensive options once it has begun. Once the combo starts there are no actions for the offender to react to or things the defender could otherwise do to effect it. Because of this, there can be no defensive advances in the metagame surrounding this.

 

[darkatma]

why is this discussion being held at all?

who cares that much about the wobbling rules? it goes both ways. The data shows banned or not banned ICs place the same in tourneys and in matchups. Besides, everyone that plays ICs is basically relying on abusing their weird game mechanics to compensate for their terrible fundamentals that apply to all characters.

so... about not disappearing for months at a time and playing smash with me once in a while because you live < 30 mins away...

 

[john!]

i find that people's stance on wobbling (except if they play ic's) says a lot about them as a person