Starcraft 2 (Info on first post!)

[JTB]

I'm sure reapers will be changed again to have them made useful again. Feels like blizzard is just throwing out changes and seeing if the community accepts/rejects them.

with zerg being buffed this much, idra better take mlg dc

 

[shanus]

Pretty irresponsible of Blizz to put out a patch on the day of MLG DC. It's like screw your practice, change strats now.

 

[Zankoku]

As opposed to putting out a patch between rounds of GSL? I don't think the timing's as bad as 1.1. Not to mention 1.1.1 coming out RIGHT AFTER Fruit Dealer won two games against oGsTOP overruning with super-splash Ultralisks.

As for the Thor thing, I really don't think it's that big of a problem. Terrans always had a problem going mech against Protoss due to their absolute need for mobility, this just makes it an actual option rather than suicide for a lot of cash. I don't think I see HTs ever made to Feedback Corruptors...

 

[HeroMystic]

As for the Thor thing, I really don't think it's that big of a problem.

As a Terran player who won about three games yesterday against Protoss I can confidently say the energy removal of Thor reshaped the way TvP works. Before it was just always MMM(G) vs w/e the Protoss made with Collosi and/or HT, but now Thors are viable all game long. They hard counter Collosi and decimate gateway units, and marines/marauders beat the balls out of Immortals so the hard counter to Thor isn't effective. The nerf on Void Rays doesn't help either.

I'm very close to saying TvP just became imbalanced to Terran's favor but it's too early to tell right now. We'll have to see how Protoss answers to the Thor buff.

Also, you don't need to rax before depot to hold off a 6 pool, but you also can't really scout that early in the match. You have to do 10 depot, 11/12 rax, 12/13 depot very quickly to wall off, which means using every SCV you had and possibly delaying gas.

 

[shanus]

As opposed to putting out a patch between rounds of GSL? I don't think the timing's as bad as 1.1. Not to mention 1.1.1 coming out RIGHT AFTER Fruit Dealer won two games against oGsTOP overruning with super-splash Ultralisks.

As for the Thor thing, I really don't think it's that big of a problem. Terrans always had a problem going mech against Protoss due to their absolute need for mobility, this just makes it an actual option rather than suicide for a lot of cash. I don't think I see HTs ever made to Feedback Corruptors...

Feedback on corruptors was so clutch you have no idea. It was a mainstay trandition seen frequently in high level play from collosus to temps which keeps your collosus viable. Its a HUGE change.

Thors is also huge, especially since they nerfed both VRS and HTs

 

[Lovage]

As a Terran player who won about three games yesterday against Protoss I can confidently say the energy removal of Thor reshaped the way TvP works. Before it was just always MMM(G) vs w/e the Protoss made with Collosi and/or HT, but now Thors are viable all game long. They hard counter Collosi and decimate gateway units, and marines/marauders beat the balls out of Immortals so the hard counter to Thor isn't effective. The nerf on Void Rays doesn't help either.

I'm very close to saying TvP just became imbalanced to Terran's favor but it's too early to tell right now. We'll have to see how Protoss answers to the Thor buff.

Also, you don't need to rax before depot to hold off a 6 pool, but you also can't really scout that early in the match. You have to do 10 depot, 11/12 rax, 12/13 depot very quickly to wall off, which means using every SCV you had and possibly delaying gas.

wtf how do thors "hard counter" colossus

absolutely not sir

 

[HeroMystic]

wtf how do thors "hard counter" colossus

absolutely not sir

When one volley of the 240mm cannon stuns and destroys a colossus at full Shields/HP(which is instantly usable with the new patch granted it's researched), that's what I'd call a counter. In bigger groups it's a toss up so I'd say neutral, so perhaps hard counter wasn't the right word, but Thor is a counter to Colossus.

 

[Omni]

i'm not that great at the game but i can definitely see noobishing things being thrown around.

no johns. all of us can improve infinitely since we're no where close to capping so any limitations people complain about is solely based off their own skill level.

also the buffs don't heavily alter the game imo. at least not at our levels. even with it strategy, timing, and positioning still trumps these small details

again no johns

 

[rhan]

I'm not playing 1v1's until this stupid patch is gone. Maybe only in customs games cuz they don't count. >_>

 

[Zankoku]

Thors are known for heavily reducing the effectiveness of splash-based attacks (except for v1.1.0 Ultralisks), so while the Colossi are going to be dealing damage more quickly, they're also only hitting one Thor at a time. In smaller numbers, of course, Colossi with Extended Thermal Lance can kite all day. Thor/Marine is an interesting composition that will probably need both HT and Immortal tech to really stop.

 

[shanus]

undocumented changes make the day even more fun.

More protoss nerf changes undocumented

On level 1 Void Ray gets +1/+0 bonus damage from Air Weapon Upgrades, same as before.
On level 2 Void Ray gets +1/+0 bonus damage from Air Weapon Upgrades, down from +1/+1 (nerf in the damage again).
On level 3 Void Ray gets +1/+1 bonus damage from Air Weapon Upgrades, down from +2/+2.


....

 

[Zone]

Lol too many people suck against dealing with void rays it's annoying. When I finally learn how to deal with them properly they get nerfed and now all my learning feels less legit. Just because Noobs don't know how to read the signs of possible void rays shouldn't call for a Gimp.

Shanus why do you feel the need to have ht to kill corrupters just so you can use colossus lol corrupters are like the only way I can beat an army composed of them as Zerg. Don't ht serve almost the same purpose as colossus in Pvz?? I guess ht have problems landing max dmg on creep even hydra can get out pretty fast. I'm just curious cuz w/o corrupters I feel like I need ultra tech then and that's tier three

 

[shanus]

Lol too many people suck against dealing with void rays it's annoying. When I finally learn how to deal with them properly they get nerfed and now all my learning feels less legit. Just because Noobs don't know how to read the signs of possible void rays shouldn't call for a Gimp.

Shanus why do you feel the need to have ht to kill corrupters just so you can use colossus lol corrupters are like the only way I can beat an army composed of them as Zerg. Don't ht serve almost the same purpose as colossus in Pvz?? I guess ht have problems landing max dmg on creep even hydra can get out pretty fast. I'm just curious cuz w/o corrupters I feel like I need ultra tech then and that's tier three

Collosus are Tier 3. Temps and Collosus are only counters and (thats only when they are truthfully tier 3.5) and psi storm alone is not a good answer to hydra/roach (you really do need collosus in there). Of course you should require Tier 3 to counter them. Corruptors mobility makes it incredibly difficult for stalkers to be effective with any form of good position on the zerg's behalf, so collosus are toast unless I can land some feedbacks on the corruptors to soften them up or kill them completely. I've won many games where feedbacking corruptors was the gamechanger without a question.

 

[Zankoku]

Just Blink your Stalkers right under the Corruptors. If they run away then they're no longer killing your Colossi, problem solved.

By the way, why should you need tier 3 to counter tier 3? Vikings hard counter Battlecruisers. You don't want to go up against Marines with Void Rays. Thors have the most trouble with Zerglings, Zealots, and Marines.

 

[shanus]

He was justifying that its an issue to require tier 3 when i had out two tier 3.5s, hence me saying that that assumption is in no way illogical. The point was that if a toss has two 3.5s out, you shouldn't complain that might need to tech to deal with high templars and collosus. Is that a wild assumption? I imagine you'll want to be able to do 2/2 or 3/3 upgrades anyway.

Also, I like how saying "just blink" at it as a solution. At this point your likely engaging armies, have a huge hydraball there, and if they are any decent, will have OLs by puking creep for maximum mobility. Thats just asking those fragile *** stalkers to get ***** leaving the collosus behind. It also takes 20 shots from stalkers to kill 1 corruptor >>20<<. I'm sorry, but your theorycraft is far from real practice.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, it's what I see being done in real practice. I've seriously never seen people attempt to Feedback Corruptors, since they're rarely alone and the energy is usually better spent on Psi Storms against Zerg.
Especially since, you know, you're talking about Hydralisks up front.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Bleh I played so badly today. Just threw away a game I had in the bag with some awful decision making. Time to stop playing.

Gretorp and Huk are about to play in MLG.

 

[shanus]

Actually, it's what I see being done in real practice. I've seriously never seen people attempt to Feedback Corruptors, since they're rarely alone and the energy is usually better spent on Psi Storms against Zerg.
Especially since, you know, you're talking about Hydralisks up front.

Are you in diamond 1v1? It's typical practice really, so many toss players are up in arms over this.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Go watch MLG if you aren't, guys.

Kiwikaki just beat Idra with a Warp Prism. A WARP PRISM

 

[JTB]

dem spoilers

Spoiler

idra still won the set

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Spoiler

Yeah, I don't really know what Kiwi was doing on LT.

 

[Zankoku]

Are you in diamond 1v1? It's typical practice really, so many toss players are up in arms over this.

I'm not sure what my rank has to do with being able to watch diamond players play. I'm also still unsure of why you're prioritizing Corruptors over Hydralisks with your High Templar.

 

[shanus]

I'm not sure what my rank has to do with being able to watch diamond players play. I'm also still unsure of why you're prioritizing Corruptors over Hydralisks with your High Templar.

Because the whole strategy I mentioned was collosus transition into templars, which is super common in diamond play. Tons of vids on Day9, HD, or husky highlight that. Storm is good and all on creep, but collosus roast hydras way faster. The whole point of templars was the versatility in that machup.


Thats why you would always see Protoss switch to templar tech during Collosus push as you can preserve your collosus while also getting storm + feedback.

I can tell you from first hand feedback how godd it was, or visit TL forums or SC2 BNET forums to see the protoss uproar.

 

[rhan]

Idra's a beast. <3

 

[Zankoku]

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I laughed SO HARD when I saw him say that. I was pulling for Huk, but that was a fun tourney overall. Select impressed me beyond belief after falling to Nony, and IdrA is just IdrA like always.

 

[Melomaniacal]

So I think I'm going to start using Zerg. I've been feeling more and more that Protoss have almost no flexibility. It's just... stalkers, zealots, and colossi or HTs. Almost no viable air units, and only a handful of viable openings (not counting cheese). Any problem I encounter is solved by just massing more stalkers. Boring. Zerg seems far more flexible.

The problem is that I barely have a clue on how to use Zerg. I tried playing a few single player matches with them, and I'm just not used to their production method. I find myself having way too much resources all the time. I guess that's to be expected, so I'm going to continue practicing until I feel confident enough to use them in ladder.

 

[Zankoku]

It's not like zerg are flexible, but rather that its tech paths bend to the composition of the enemy army. For example, it's not like you default to massing Roaches and Banelings, but rather do so to deal with mass Marines.

 

[Melomaniacal]

It's not like zerg are flexible, but rather that its tech paths bend to the composition of the enemy army. For example, it's not like you default to massing Roaches and Banelings, but rather do so to deal with mass Marines.

I meant flexible more in the sense that they have more useful units. Protoss are stuck with pretty much just gateway units.

 

[Zankoku]

Oh ****, you only have Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Immortals, and Colossi that are commonly seen in a normal game. What a horrible lack of variety compared to Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Hydralisks, Infestors, Mutalisks, and Ultralisks; or Marines, Marauders, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Thors, Vikings, and Medivacs.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Oh ****, you only have Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Immortals, and Colossi that are commonly seen in a normal game. What a horrible lack of variety compared to Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Hydralisks, Infestors, Mutalisks, and Ultralisks; or Marines, Marauders, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Thors, Vikings, and Medivacs.

Yeesh, did something I say, like... offend you? Anyway, I'd like to have some viable air units.
And I'm thinking more and more that colossi are not worth the cost. The only way they survive is if I have a mass amount of stalkers to protect them. So again, it just becomes mass stalkers. Either way, my problem is that I use the same units as a response to anything. I never feel like I'm "countering" anything... just making more of the same units I would have built anyway. If you don't play Protoss, I suggest trying them out. You'll learn that their game play gets really, really bland.

Bottom line: In my opinion, Protoss have gotten boring. You cannot argue this.

 

[Zankoku]

Admittedly, my most dominant teams strategy as Terran is making a ****ton of Marines and supporting them with Medivacs, so I do not understand your problem, I merely contribute to it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Admittedly, my most dominant teams strategy as Terran is making a ****ton of Marines and supporting them with Medivacs, so I do not understand your problem, I merely contribute to it.

****, how do you enjoy this game?

 

[Zankoku]

I play aggressively and adjust my strategy and composition based on map and what I scout out through scans. You know, like sometimes I get Marauders to take on the armored stuff, or Vikings instead of Medivacs if I'm up against Colossi.

The problem is that there's really not that much variety to any race. You have Zealot / Stalker / Sentry / Immortal / HT / Colossus, known as Protoss default, you have Void Rays, Carriers, Phoenixes, and DTs for secret tech. You have Mutalisk / Zergling / Baneling, or Hydralisk / Roach / Infestor, and eventually choose your tech into either Ultralisks or Brood Lords for the Zerg. Terran admittedly has a few mixes with Marine / Marauder / Medivac, Ghost play, Marine / Tank, Mech (Hellion / Siege Tank / Thor), and a couple others, but they're largely only viable in specific race matchups and eventual responses to the opponent's tech route.

You learn to just go with what wins. TLO has some creative builds, but that's because he has enough of an understanding of the game to learn on his own what can win. If you want to try something different, go right ahead, but don't blame your race on lack of choices.

 

[Zone]

Shanus I dunno where you get this 3.5 stuff but if you count my first overlord to cancel out your required pylon where we usually build our pool at 14 or 15 the. We need one more building to get ultras out of any of those options

I also want to add I generally need 3 bases to consider ultra I can sometimes get and few off 2 but because I can't protect them as well as you can your colossus and ht cuz ultras are melée. Best bet I got to protect them
Is to bring a couple queens with my overlords which I have done. Much easier to spread creep with a Ovie and 1 queen as well run around the map and drop tumors on ovie creep. Spreads faster and better but despite all this I feel Zerg v Protoss is pretty even but it is a little map dependant.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Once someone gets to the higher levels I think you're able to vary your builds and unit compositions more, but I guess every race does have their 'norm.' For example TLO tends to use varied and interesting strategies. Or at MLG DC when someone (Kiwikaki I think) used DTs to help win. But until one gets to that level, it's pretty hard to vary too much.

 

[M@v]

So yeah, I'm playing brotoss more now guys. I dont know if I'll play them more than terran, but I've been doing really well with them recently.

 

[Zankoku]

Tiering is based on what tech is available by upgrading your town hall in Warcraft... Zerg follows this, so tiering their units are relatively easy.

Zerg
1 (Hatchery tech, one building): Zergling
1.5 (Hatchery tech, two buildings): Roach, Baneling
2 (Lair tech): Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Corruptor, Infestor, Overseer
3 (Hive tech): Ultralisk, Brood Lord

And then there are a bunch of ways to sort the other two races, but generally the best way is by timing.

Terran
1: Marine
1.5: Marauder, Reaper
2: Ghost, Hellion, Siege Tank, Viking, Medivac
2.5: Thor, Banshee, Raven
3: Battlecruiser

Protoss
1: Zealot
1.5: Stalker, Sentry
2: Warp Prism, Observer, Immortal, Phoenix, Void Ray
2.5: High Templar
3: Colossus, Carrier, Dark Templar
Mothership: Mothership

 

[Zone]

Nevermind shanus feedback is fair on corruptors because I forgot it's dependent on how much energy it has and I could always dump it on overlords or something and leave only a few to cast on your colossus. This strategy slipped my
Mind even though I did it in broodwar

 

[Melomaniacal]

...don't blame your race on lack of choices.

I am going to blame my race because, like I said, in my opinion, Protoss have gotten boring. I am bored with the choices I have to make as that race to win. Me. I'm bored with them. Not you. Not the entire Starcraft 2 community. Me. My opinion. I'm blaming the race because that is my opinion and that's how I feel.

And that is perfectly fine.