Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
In the anime, not the games.
-
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TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT
- Thread starter JOE!
- Start date
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Ok, you guys sort of mentioned this before, but didn't take it far enough.
Neither MK or kirby has thumbs, which means they can't wield any sort of melee weapon.
Basically, you need that second point to control a weapon, otherwise it will be forced out of the weak point of your grip, which means you can't attack or block with it.
For an illustration, take a pencil in your hand, have your thumb straight up, now grip it as firmly as possible. Now, hold your arm straight in front and smack the pencil (the long part, don't hit the head straight on, or the bottom). You should lose your grip no matter what side you smack, though if you smack it toward the right (assuming you're holding it in your right hand) it should require the most force.
Now, do the same thing, but include the thumb, you should only be able to force it out of your hand if you push it towards the left (and even then it should require a lot of force).
So, no swords, no hammers, nothing like that. Maybe guns without recoil (like lasers), but otherwise no.
Neither MK or kirby has thumbs, which means they can't wield any sort of melee weapon.
Basically, you need that second point to control a weapon, otherwise it will be forced out of the weak point of your grip, which means you can't attack or block with it.
For an illustration, take a pencil in your hand, have your thumb straight up, now grip it as firmly as possible. Now, hold your arm straight in front and smack the pencil (the long part, don't hit the head straight on, or the bottom). You should lose your grip no matter what side you smack, though if you smack it toward the right (assuming you're holding it in your right hand) it should require the most force.
Now, do the same thing, but include the thumb, you should only be able to force it out of your hand if you push it towards the left (and even then it should require a lot of force).
So, no swords, no hammers, nothing like that. Maybe guns without recoil (like lasers), but otherwise no.
Do you guys dread my posts?
Sieguest
Smash Master
No...we don't dread your posts....
Only I do cuz you're always on the opposite side of me!!!
I've been lurking waiting for a post like this....
It seems that Kirby and MK fall victim to a "IRL I'm nerfed so much that nothing is basically possible...."
I mean if we REALLY want to get technical with this...then neither Kirby nor MK have any legs (or very small ones) so where's the thrust to go airborne coming from in the first place! How are they even moving without some other aid...
they'd have to be like preposioned close to each other in a fist fight...and it seems MK would win because he has face protection....
OMG PHYSICS SUX!!!
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
It's smash, smash isn't cannon.Metaknight's got thumbs.
Here's a Cannon pic.
Look Ma, no thumbs.
His gloves could have "thumbs" without him actually having thumbs he could manipulate.
Fake thumbs ftw!
bibleonian
Smash Apprentice
I'd say that if Kirby CAN (and I stress the 2 words if & can) hit Meta Knight then that's going to cause serious damage. I doubt he's going to fight well in the air with it but if he gets him with a decent shot then Meta knight would be pretty well damaged. However, I just don't see it doing enough to win the fight for Kirby. It might make it a bit more even (like a 600 or so Meta and 400 or so Kirby). Meta Knight does have lighter armor but Kirby has nothing. If Meta Knight hits Kirby then he's going to cause more damage than Kirby would with his sword. I'd say it's fairly close but Meta Knight wins.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
No, here's a cannon pic:
The pic you gave is from a puzzle spinoff that was only released in Japan. It's also the only time Metaknight has ever been depicted without thumbs, as of my recollection (not to mention his eyes changed color and he's got no shoulderpads). I'd be much quicker to strike that particular picture off as non-canon than to strike every other game off. Even if he doesn't have thumbs and they're just some kind of magic/electronic thumbgiver gloves, he's been shown manipulating the thumbs with them in the main games' artwork plenty of times.
Sieguest
Smash Master
Mk filled that thumb spot in the glove with some bricks to look convincing...
but really...how can anything happen if they have no legs and no thumbs and start from a distance...
it's like..."who's ate the most before they came to the fight" maybe kirby because he can't do jack without food....gourmet race ftw!
EDIT:@Bobson- the reason MK's eyes change when the mask is off is because for some dumb reason the mask gives the wearer's eyes a yellow tint...hence why kirby's eye color changes to green when he copies MK's tornado on brawl...
Also MK if he's demasked, what good is shoulder pads...MK is like that full armor or no go guy....
lol at the cannon pic!
but really...how can anything happen if they have no legs and no thumbs and start from a distance...
it's like..."who's ate the most before they came to the fight" maybe kirby because he can't do jack without food....gourmet race ftw!
EDIT:@Bobson- the reason MK's eyes change when the mask is off is because for some dumb reason the mask gives the wearer's eyes a yellow tint...hence why kirby's eye color changes to green when he copies MK's tornado on brawl...
Also MK if he's demasked, what good is shoulder pads...MK is like that full armor or no go guy....
lol at the cannon pic!
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The other games don't have his gloves off... Just because the glove has a thumb doesn't mean that it's a real thumb, and we don't strike off games because of convenience, smash deals with trophies of the characters, not the characters themselves, that's why it's non-canonical.No, here's a cannon pic:
The pic you gave is from a puzzle spinoff that was only released in Japan. It's also the only time Metaknight has ever been depicted without thumbs, as of my recollection (not to mention his eyes changed color and he's got no shoulderpads). I'd be much quicker to strike that particular picture off as non-canon than to strike every other game off. Even if he doesn't have thumbs and they're just some kind of magic/electronic thumbgiver gloves, he's been shown manipulating the thumbs with them in the main games' artwork plenty of times.
Do any other members of his species have thumbs? Aka, the kirbies.
In case you haven't noticed, there's a decided tendency for games to blatantly "not do the research" and make elementary physics mistakes. Or just be ignoring it.
That's the entire reason why this thread is here.
If we include a magical thumb-giver, it's not directly attached to MK's body, it's attached to the gloves. That means that it will have the exact same problem.
Sieguest
Smash Master
plus...if it's just a magical thumb giver and it's only in the glove...then does MK really have any muscle control over it?
now that I think about the thumb in glove thing...it could easily be equated to maybe a war veteran who had his thumb taken off...he could get those stiff, thick glove that hold the thumb in a defined shape just like the picture of smash Mk, and yet...not have a thumb...All the "kirbies" are nerfed...
the reason for the quotations is because it's never really been determined if "Kirby" is a species or just the name of whatever Kirby is...whether metaknight is related to kirby or not is a mystery to this day too...
bobson
Smash Lord
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- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
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The closest thing to a "species" that Metaknight would have would be the Star Warriors, but it's not explicitly a species, just a group. There are a lot of characters in the anime with very similar builds to Kirby and Metaknight who also have prominent thumbs.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The star warriors are not the "kirbies".
Kirby has a species, it just has never been named, so it's generally referred to as the "kirbies". All kirbies are basically kirby recolors, except MK (in the fact that he has significant individual backstory and other abilities, but everything else fits completely).
He's part of the GROUP "star warriors", but he's part of the species that has been named "kirbies" by the fans (and have no official name).
This all dodges my main point however, we have a screen that has him WITH NO THUMBS! It's also his only gloveless screen ever.
Him being able to manipulate and use them for fighting is an unrealistic hand wave that is exactly the kind of thing this thread is built to eliminate.
The bat wings are also created from his cape, which is impossible and therefore out.
Sieguest
Smash Master
I still think this is kind of an almost nerfed stalemate...
no legs, no thumbs....= bad to no mobility and...stub hand fighting...
is there really anything tilting in any character's favor?
Something tells me the way to win these arguments is to nerf your opponent by using science against them
no legs, no thumbs....= bad to no mobility and...stub hand fighting...
is there really anything tilting in any character's favor?
Something tells me the way to win these arguments is to nerf your opponent by using science against them
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Actually, the way to win is don't pick a favorite until you've figured out who gets nerfed/improved by science, and then hammer on it.Something tells me the way to win these arguments is to nerf your opponent by using science against them
But yea, that's the general principal of the thing, remember, SCIENCE!
Anyway, their allowed abilities are the same and they don't seem to be able to realistically hurt each other, stalemate? Possibly still MK's favor if they turn out to be strong enough to hurt each other.
Sieguest
Smash Master
I would think stalemate...I still don't see how they could hurt each other unless we place them right within arm's length of each other though...unless they're feet are designed to perform the functions of both their feet and their legsActually, the way to win is don't pick a favorite until you've figured out who gets nerfed/improved by science, and then hammer on it.
But yea, that's the general principal of the thing, remember, SCIENCE!
Anyway, their allowed abilities are the same and they don't seem to be able to realistically hurt each other, stalemate? Possibly still MK's favor if they turn out to be strong enough to hurt each other.
rofl at the science picture!
bobson
Smash Lord
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- Jul 28, 2008
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- 1,674
If it's not an official species, it's not a species. The only canon relation MK and Kirby have is that they're both Star Warriors (and that's only in the anime).
From a Japanese-only puzzle spinoff, yes. And we're not even sure that he doesn't actually have thumbs there; Kirby art tends to depict Metaknight's gloves as blobs when drawn small enough that the thumbs wouldn't be prominent.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Nah, they could actually contort their body to move, using their legs as a focus, it would just be pretty slow.I would think stalemate...I still don't see how they could hurt each other unless we place them right within arm's length of each other though...unless they're feet are designed to perform the functions of both their feet and their legs
rofl at the science picture!
Basically, they'd be moving sort of like amoebas.
Think about it, if you stiffen your legs, you can move using just your thigh muscles in sort of a shuffling motion. Using your upper body muscles you can shift weight to make it more efficient.
Legs just make it a whole lot better.
edit:
No... it's not NAMED species, but it is an official species.
Aka, the name is the only unofficial thing about it.
Spinoff=/= unofficial.
Japanese only =/= unofficial.
That isn't blobs, that's actual pointed hands. The glove, it can work, because the glove is a shape that the thumb can easily blend into, but not the hand, it's the same style hand as kirby, which would mean that even at that distance, the thumb would be very noticable and therefore cannot be handwaved away as "not detailed enough". It would need more distance.
Also, look at the way he's holding the sword, it's parallel to his hand, that does not work with thumbs.
Actually, it does not work, period, but it's a "handwave" position, not a "I have thumbs but we're not showing enough detail to show it".
Sieguest
Smash Master
Oh, that makes sense...
Well...then if they're meeting at a distance, then this sort of just prolongs the real fighting until they get close....but who is actually stronger? both MK and kirby look to have the same build, who gets tired of getting flub punched first?
bobson
Smash Lord
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Since when? I've never heard anything official about MK and Kirby being the same species.
ebhz.Ash.4rm
Smash Cadet
It's gotta go to mk. The flight advantage does it, unless there's a limited time of use even then he should be able to dominate kirby.
Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
You know, MK seems to get really embarassed when his mask comes off. If they don't get weapons, Kirby can take it off.
Also, Kirby seems to be the better fighter without any weapons (that slide attack)
Also, Kirby seems to be the better fighter without any weapons (that slide attack)
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Try Kirby's air ride, there are quite a few variations of kirby's species.
As for Mk, he's identical to Kirby in every way under the armor, except for being a recolor, standard for the kirbies.
Sieguest
Smash Master
Kirby Air Ride is full of lulz! Doing a free run on city trial and knocking out an MK or Dedede to where they have to wobble everywhere is utter hilarity!
@Bobson-they're unsure to Kirby's relationship to Meta-Knight, but they fall under the same species...
@Bobson-they're unsure to Kirby's relationship to Meta-Knight, but they fall under the same species...
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ Except that attack only works on weak enemies. D: †
♪ Let's just give Kirby his Fighter power with no Vulcan Jabs or Smash Punch related, but Rising Break. >:] †
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
§leepy God
Smash Master
♪ LMAO, is there anyone in Dremaland that defies the laws of physics? XD †
Sieguest
Smash Master
They did until we dragged them into a place we call Reality!
Ussi
Smash Legend
A land of dreams does not belong in reality....
Sieguest
Smash Master
Well good thing we took the characters and not the land huh?
so Ussi, how was the invasion lol
JOE!
Smash Hero
Pokemon
|
Super Smashes
|
Interactions
|
Strategy
- Guillotine
- Whirlpool
- Hone Claws
- Bisharp can hit Alakazam's spoons like his Metal Claws, which makes them behave just like them until they return to Alakazam.
- Full-charge Hydro Pumps will remain in the air/where they explode for 5 seconds when they hit Reflect or are Grabbed/Zair'd/Side B'd by Alakazam, and will continue to slightly push foes away from the center of the burst, but deal no damage.
- When Bisharp commands Feraligatr to use a smash attack, Gatr's smashes are performed 25% faster than normal. When Bisharp and Feraligatr are the only Pokemon remaining, Feraligatr can also command Bisharp with his Smashes due to experience.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Nope, we sort of talked about that before, and the only explanation for that is that the gloves have thumbs that are unattached to MK himself.
based on this, couldn't MK's gloves function as sort of fists to hold the sword?
The problem with that being that gloves have a tendency to shift, which means it doesn't actually deal with the problem.
No substitute for a real opposable thumb.
Why can't we just throw in a rule that gives Kirb and Meta thumbs? No thumbs = No match.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ I wouldn't say no match, they can jab.... wait, only Kirby can jab, lol. Well never mind about that. XD ☆
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Defeats the point of the thread?
Plus, gives them an unfair advantage next round (whichever or both if we decide a draw anyway).
JOE!
Smash Hero
Pokemon
|
Super Smashes
|
Interactions
|
Strategy
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlpool
- Strength
- Alakazam can grab Fossilized foes with Confusion, despite their anti-grab armor, and throw them while pausing their "grab" timer until released from Confusion.
- Full-charge Hydro Pumps will remain in the air/where they explode for 5 seconds when they hit Reflect or are Grabbed/Zair'd/Side B'd by Alakazam, and will continue to slightly push foes away from the center of the burst, but deal no damage.
- When Feraligatr's Water hits Armantle's Lava, it cools into brand new, solid stage. Cooled lava is pass-through if extended to the air, just like platforms, but can be extended off edges and still be solid if done from a floor.
†Slader7†
Smash Ace
So this is no epic sword fight as you guys said that they cannot have thumbs. So what we are looking at is a slap fight. With a little kicking involved.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
They could always grasp it... they'd just lose it on impact with anything (including a target).know what, because this is one of the more bull**** things to happen, i think ill allow them to somehow grasp their weapons.
unless anyone opposes this decision to make this an actual match?
not that much of an advantage...I mean everyone but them (and jiggz...) has thumbs
Seriously though, just deciding that something will work even though it doesn't IRL is BS and defeats the entire purpose of the thread. Stay consistent otherwise this thread becomes yet another canon abilities thread.
The answer to this match-up should be, "uber-nerfed, stalemate, next character".
JOE!
Smash Hero
Pokemon
|
Super Smashes
|
Interactions
|
Strategy
- Whirlpool
- Assist
- (Triple Finish)
- Full-charge Hydro Pumps will remain in the air/where they explode for 5 seconds when they hit Reflect or are Grabbed/Zair'd/Side B'd by Alakazam, and will continue to slightly push foes away from the center of the burst, but deal no damage.
- Water attacks will make Leech Seeds grow, causing them to heal the attacks % back in full as well as emit an aura for 1% healing per second in a 1/2 platform radius around the foe.
- Alakazam can catch Seed Bombs with Jab/Grab/Confusion, making them behave like his Spoon Traps, and allowing Breloom to toss another.
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TRIPLE FINISH
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- Alakazam teleports the trio to the target after popping in and grabbing their arms. Feraligatr will then grab at the foe from behind them, and if successful, begin Pummeling like mad with Alakazam next to him at a perfect distance to regrab if they grab release. To switch that up however, occasionally Alakazam will use Teleport to switch both position with Gatr, and who has the foe grabbed, surely confusing the foe! While this is going on, Breloom can be controlled as he automatically winds up a Focus Punch, and when he's about ready to strike, the Pokemon who currently has the foe will release them into the air for him to jump up and strike!
Mota
"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
Couldn't they just duct tape the sword to there hands -_-
Ussi
Smash Legend
Wing attack? Fly then slam into Kirby? The spikes on MK's wings can pierce Kirby for damage too... I see this I MK's favor without weapons. Simply due to MK having more raw abilities.