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TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

tocador

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stupidest part of this post
light isn't effected by gravity, only by curves in space-time
EDIT: you're repeating yourself tocador
"According to Einstein's General Relativity Theory,light will be affected in the same way matter is affected by gravity. This is because under this theory, we should think of gravity not in terms of vector like forces, but as a consequence of the "shape" of the universe.
From Newton's point of view, gravity was a linearly directed force with which all objects with mass pulled on all other objects with mass. His analysis showed that the strength of the force was proportional to the product of the 2 masses attracting one another, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Thus an apple and the earth would pull toward each other, and the apple "falls" from the tree. Since light (whether perceived as a ray or a photon) has no mass, Newton's equation predicts that it will not be attracted by gravity towards anything, no matter how massive.

In order to construct a theoretical framework that would be consistent to all observers and that did not rely on some independent fixed reference frame, Einstein had to discard this perception of how gravity works and devise a new understanding. According to this theory, all object with mass alter the curvature of spacetime, the 4 dimensional fabric of the universe. Objects moving through spacetime then simply follow the curves that have been created.

Since human brains are not good at picturing things in 4 dimensions we usually resort to an analogy in 3 dimensions. Imagine spacetime as a sheet of rubber, stretched flat when there is no matter present. If we place a massive object like a star in this "space" it pushes down into the rubber sheet creating a dimple or pit in the rubber. an asteroid flying by the star would not travel in a straight line as it rolled along the sheet, it would curve as it went through the dip, coming out in a new direction. If an object were going just the right speed, it might get stuck in the dimple and travel around the star in an orbit like a ball around a roulette wheel. So far the predictions of this theory are the same as Newton's, but now comes a big difference- if light traveled along this rubber sheet of spacetime, it would follow the curve too, since the curvature of space is already created by the star. In fact if the pit is deep enough and the walls very steep, the light might fall into the pit and never escape. (what we call a black hole) Newton didn't notice this bending of light because it takes very massive objects to get something as fast as light to curve enough that you can notice. This is the same reason we still learn and use Newton's equation - it works well most of the time. But experiments have shown that in fact Newton was wrong and light IS attracted towards object with mass, as Einstein's theory predicted.

According to Newtonian gravity, light is not affected by gravity, as light is massless. Einstein's law E = mc2, immediately suggests that light is affected by gravity. This is indeed the case and has experimentally be observed via gravitational lensing and other effects.

The classical propagation of light in general relativity (GR) is given by Maxwell's electromagnetic equations and the Bianci identity

dF = 0

and

d*F = 0

Where d is the exterior derivative, F is the field strength 2-form and * is the Hodge duality operator.

The easiest way to describe light rays and light cones is through geometric optics. In this approximation the electromagnetic field is written as a slowly varying amplitude and a rapidly varying phase.

Using this approximation in Maxwell's equations we see that light travels along null geodesics (ds = 0). Also, the wave vector and the polarisation are parallel transported along these null geodesic rays. The amplitude varies as the beam is focused or diverged. The dispersion relation is k2 = 0. (k is the wave vector).

This means that light cones are identified with null cones in the space-time and the dispersion relation k2 = 0 . Put simply, light cones are the same as the null cones and both describe the causal structure of the space-time.

The method is "simply" to solve the null geodesic equation which will give you the paths light will travel.

So far what I have said is general and of course may be in practice very difficult to calculate. The obvious example to consider is the Schwartzschild space-time. Any book on GR will cover this as this space-time is about the only one ever experimentally observed (apart from cosmological solutions).

Solving the null geodesic equation for this background gives a deflection angle of 4m/R where m is the mass of the star and R is the radius of the star. This was observed by Eddington in 1919 and was used as proof that GR is right.

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae661.cfm"

I repeat myself to prove to you that you are wrong.

Thats my job here.

And just a question, what is the beam shot made of?

Plasma/Lasers/Popcorn?(yeah i really dont know =[)

Because im sure as hell that it isnt light, because it does not travel as fast as light does.
 

payasofobia

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"according To Einstein's General Relativity Theory,light Will Be Affected In The Same Way Matter Is Affected By Gravity. This Is Because Under This Theory, We Should Think Of Gravity Not In Terms Of Vector Like Forces, But As A Consequence Of The "shape" Of The Universe.
From Newton's Point Of View, Gravity Was A Linearly Directed Force With Which All Objects With Mass Pulled On All Other Objects With Mass. His Analysis Showed That The Strength Of The Force Was Proportional To The Product Of The 2 Masses Attracting One Another, And Inversely Proportional To The Square Of The Distance Between Them. Thus An Apple And The Earth Would Pull Toward Each Other, And The Apple "falls" From The Tree. Since Light (whether Perceived As A Ray Or A Photon) Has No Mass, Newton's Equation Predicts That It Will Not Be Attracted By Gravity Towards Anything, No Matter How Massive.

In Order To Construct A Theoretical Framework That Would Be Consistent To All Observers And That Did Not Rely On Some Independent Fixed Reference Frame, Einstein Had To Discard This Perception Of How Gravity Works And Devise A New Understanding. According To This Theory, All Object With Mass Alter The Curvature Of Spacetime, The 4 Dimensional Fabric Of The Universe. Objects Moving Through Spacetime Then Simply Follow The Curves That Have Been Created.

Since Human Brains Are Not Good At Picturing Things In 4 Dimensions We Usually Resort To An Analogy In 3 Dimensions. Imagine Spacetime As A Sheet Of Rubber, Stretched Flat When There Is No Matter Present. If We Place A Massive Object Like A Star In This "space" It Pushes Down Into The Rubber Sheet Creating A Dimple Or Pit In The Rubber. An Asteroid Flying By The Star Would Not Travel In A Straight Line As It Rolled Along The Sheet, It Would Curve As It Went Through The Dip, Coming Out In A New Direction. If An Object Were Going Just The Right Speed, It Might Get Stuck In The Dimple And Travel Around The Star In An Orbit Like A Ball Around A Roulette Wheel. So Far The Predictions Of This Theory Are The Same As Newton's, But Now Comes A Big Difference- If Light Traveled Along This Rubber Sheet Of Spacetime, It Would Follow The Curve Too, Since The Curvature Of Space Is Already Created By The Star. In Fact If The Pit Is Deep Enough And The Walls Very Steep, The Light Might Fall Into The Pit And Never Escape. (what We Call A Black Hole) Newton Didn't Notice This Bending Of Light Because It Takes Very Massive Objects To Get Something As Fast As Light To Curve Enough That You Can Notice. This Is The Same Reason We Still Learn And Use Newton's Equation - It Works Well Most Of The Time. But Experiments Have Shown That In Fact Newton Was Wrong And Light Is Attracted Towards Object With Mass, As Einstein's Theory Predicted.

According To Newtonian Gravity, Light Is Not Affected By Gravity, As Light Is Massless. Einstein's Law E = Mc2, Immediately Suggests That Light Is Affected By Gravity. This Is Indeed The Case And Has Experimentally Be Observed Via Gravitational Lensing And Other Effects.

The Classical Propagation Of Light In General Relativity (gr) Is Given By Maxwell's Electromagnetic Equations And The Bianci Identity

Df = 0

And

D*f = 0

Where D Is The Exterior Derivative, F Is The Field Strength 2-form And * Is The Hodge Duality Operator.

The Easiest Way To Describe Light Rays And Light Cones Is Through Geometric Optics. In This Approximation The Electromagnetic Field Is Written As A Slowly Varying Amplitude And A Rapidly Varying Phase.

Using This Approximation In Maxwell's Equations We See That Light Travels Along Null Geodesics (ds = 0). Also, The Wave Vector And The Polarisation Are Parallel Transported Along These Null Geodesic Rays. The Amplitude Varies As The Beam Is Focused Or Diverged. The Dispersion Relation Is K2 = 0. (k Is The Wave Vector).

This Means That Light Cones Are Identified With Null Cones In The Space-time And The Dispersion Relation K2 = 0 . Put Simply, Light Cones Are The Same As The Null Cones And Both Describe The Causal Structure Of The Space-time.

The Method Is "simply" To Solve The Null Geodesic Equation Which Will Give You The Paths Light Will Travel.

So Far What I Have Said Is General And Of Course May Be In Practice Very Difficult To Calculate. The Obvious Example To Consider Is The Schwartzschild Space-time. Any Book On Gr Will Cover This As This Space-time Is About The Only One Ever Experimentally Observed (apart From Cosmological Solutions).

Solving The Null Geodesic Equation For This Background Gives A Deflection Angle Of 4m/r Where M Is The Mass Of The Star And R Is The Radius Of The Star. This Was Observed By Eddington In 1919 And Was Used As Proof That Gr Is Right.

Http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae661.cfm"

I Demmand You To Chill And Stop Saying Bs As In "light Isnt Affected By Gravity" Right Now.

I Repeat Myself To Prove To You That You Are Wrong.

Thats My Job Here.

This Is Not A Realistic Fight. Read The Op. He Writes The Rules Of The Fight.


And please UncleSam, stop trying to argue with this guy.
 

UncleSam

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Since light (whether perceived as a ray or a photon) has no mass, Newton's equation predicts that it will not be attracted by gravity towards anything, no matter how massive.
this was taken directly from your post did you even read it?
EDIT:
This Is Not A Realistic Fight. Read The Op. He Writes The Rules Of The Fight.
he is giving us information which disproves his point, so why should we ignore it?
tl;dr
a massive object molds the space time which light will travel on
 

payasofobia

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Because it has nothing to do with the rules of the fight....it is similar to spamming.....but whatever, you proved him wrong anyway.
 

tocador

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You guys dont know how to read, dam it.

Dosent matter, i just highlighted the important part.

SO IF THIS FIGHT DOSENT FOLLOW EVEN GRAVITY RULES, mewtwo can implode samus and the whole world.

/discussion

Come on guys, there are some basics that we need to aply, like you know, GRAVITY, and such because withought it this fight is BS, with no gravity you would just fly arround things withought being able to change your trajetory, as TO SHOT the beam from samus canon you need a force to do it, and as far as i know, you havent said what it is.
 

UncleSam

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Because it has nothing to do with the rules of the fight....it is similar to spamming.....but whatever, you proved him wrong anyway.
he's still going to argue it because einstein and newton contradict eachother
because quantum physics and the space-time continuum contradict eachother
in a way
 

UncleSam

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You guys dont know how to read, dam it.

Dosent matter, i just highlighted the important part.

SO IF THIS FIGHT DOSENT FOLLOW EVEN GRAVITY RULES, mewtwo can implode samus and the whole world.

/discussion

Come on guys, there are some basics that we need to aply, like you know, GRAVITY, and such because withought it this fight is BS, with no gravity you would just fly arround things withought being able to change your trajetory, as TO SHOT the beam from samus canon you need a force to do it, and as far as i know, you havent said what it is.
has mewtwo imploded a planet using gravity in the canon?
no
in a theorhetical way both einstein and newton are both correct because gravity can be the cause of space-time warpings and vise versa
this is a theory though
EDIT: everybody has their own gravitational field though ours are not as powerful as say the earth
mewtwo just larger than a human being, is he seriously going to bend the space-time continuum using brain waves?
 

tocador

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It is a canon fight, the beam ignores gravity in canon.



What is so hard to understand?
Where in the game it says "Beam ignores gravity h4h4".

It may be just not visible, as if you are with a lantern you cant see gravity pulling its light to the ground, but it still does, therefore mewtwo can produce a gravity field to attract it to the ground, making him untouchable.

And you havent answered, what is the beam made of.
 

UncleSam

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Where in the game it says "Beam ignores gravity h4h4".

It may be just not visible, as if you are with a lantern you cant see gravity pulling its light to the ground, but it still does, therefore mewtwo can produce a gravity field to attract it to the ground, making him untouchable.

And you havent answered, what is the beam made of.
doesn't say on wikitroid
at least the power beam
ice beam- supercooled ice
plasma beam- plasma (duh)
light beam- concentrated light
dark beam- concentrated anti matter
annihilator- concentration of both light and dark beams
nova beam- high frequency... whatever else the power beam is made of
 

payasofobia

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Where in the game it says "Beam ignores gravity h4h4".

It may be just not visible, as if you are with a lantern you cant see gravity pulling its light to the ground, but it still does, therefore mewtwo can produce a gravity field to attract it to the ground, making him untouchable.

And you havent answered, what is the beam made of.
We are coming full-circle here folks.

.....

In the boss fight with Nightmare.

Use your logic for christ sake.






This canon fight sucks.


JOE! please, get on with it....
 

day-day

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Since this round is just about done with the clunky tin can winning (lol) I have just one question.
Can mewtwo learn something along the lines of double team to make clones or raise his evasiveness? If so would Samus be able to hit them all with her beam before they/he do(es) something?
Sorry came in on this late and was just curious about the double team thing.
 

UncleSam

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Since this round is just about done with the clunky tin can winning (lol) I have just one question.
Can mewtwo learn something along the lines of double team to make clones or raise his evasiveness? If so would Samus be able to hit them all with her beam before they/he do(es) something?
Sorry came in on this late and was just curious about the double team thing.
mewtwo can't learn double team and even if he could... dark visor finds the real mewtwo
EDIT: he learns it by TM so he can't learn it naturally meaning he can't use it
If it dosent come directly from the game or the creators, and its fan made, then you cant say it is real.
guess what this fight is!
and read the rest of my post I edited it
 

tocador

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We are coming full-circle here folks.

.....

In the boss fight with Nightmare.

Use your logic for christ sake.






This canon fight sucks.


JOE! please, get on with it....
You cant prove that just because NIGHTMARE gravitys field couldnt stop it, mewtwo's one wont be able to. Maybe it wasnt just strong enough.

ANd like i said, it was a samus game, and therefore you are suposed to win, they cant create something you cant beat, so prolly they created a weaker gravity force just to make it harder.

WHO KNOWS I MEAN, because there is no source proving that the beam wasnt AT LEAST a bit affected, or one that says(by the game itself or his creators): "Beam isnt affected by ANY, DOSENT MATTER HOW STRONG IT IS, type of gravity.
 

tocador

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And where do you think Nightmare comes from?



Whatever.

Warrior of the year:
SAMUS: EVERY YEAR.
Just read my dam posts, because you just seem to skip the part i woop you logic arround.

Ima be gone for now, im comming back soon, so Joe read the full discusiion b4 making a judgement.

Meaning this is prolly a draw that 3 biased people cant see.
 

UncleSam

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You cant prove that just because NIGHTMARE gravitys field couldnt stop it, mewtwo's one wont be able to. Maybe it wasnt just strong enough.

ANd like i said, it was a samus game, and therefore you are suposed to win, they cant create something you cant beat, so prolly they created a weaker gravity force just to make it harder.

WHO KNOWS I MEAN, because there is no source proving that the beam wasnt AT LEAST a bit affected, or one that says(by the game itself or his creators): "Beam isnt affected by ANY, DOSENT MATTER HOW STRONG IT IS, type of gravity.
and so was mewtwo in every game, every manga, and every movie he makes no difference
mewtwo is facing a main character, he can't win.
c'mon you should get this reference tocador
 

payasofobia

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You cant prove that just because NIGHTMARE gravitys field couldnt stop it, mewtwo's one wont be able to. Maybe it wasnt just strong enough.

ANd like i said, it was a samus game, and therefore you are suposed to win, they cant create something you cant beat, so prolly they created a weaker gravity force just to make it harder.

WHO KNOWS I MEAN, because there is no source proving that the beam wasnt AT LEAST a bit affected, or one that says(by the game itself or his creators): "Beam isnt affected by ANY, DOSENT MATTER HOW STRONG IT IS, type of gravity.


......... I am sorry....but I am ignoring you for the rest of the match. We explained enough. Nightmare was made by futuristic supercientist from space and nightmare was made specificaly to use ultra high gravities as a weapon.



WE ARE COMING FULL CIRCLE.
 

tocador

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doesn't say on wikitroid
at least the power beam
ice beam- supercooled ice
plasma beam- plasma (duh)
light beam- concentrated light
dark beam- concentrated anti matter
annihilator- concentration of both light and dark beams
nova beam- high frequency... whatever else the power beam is made of
O well, ice is gravity affected.

Plasma too.

Light too.

Anti matter can be contained with a simples push. And is affected by gravity.

Anihilator too.

Nova beam: If you cant tell what is made off, you cant tell it is going to kill.
 

tocador

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......... I am sorry....but I am ignoring you for the rest of the match. We explained enough. Nightmare was made by futuristic supercientist from space and nightmare was made specificaly to use ultra high gravities as a weapon.



WE ARE COMING FULL CIRCLE.
SO? Ultra high gravities isnt a number, whereas mewtwo can just be WHOOPING *** MONSTLERY GRAVITY.

Chill, if you cant argue just leave the discussion.

And im off for some hours. cya.
 

payasofobia

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Welp, never mind then Samus wins. Dang you retro and nintendo for giving her all those visors and gadgetry lol At this rate, Samus will probably wind up winning the whole thing.
Doubt it.

In a realistic fight a lot of Samus's weapons would not work.

This was just an exception.

Still, in a realistic fight Mewtwo would be even more gimped.
 

Sieguest

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Hmm time to throw my Samus Oppositon in there...>.>

We still haven't touched on the fact of the Dark Ball >.>
lol capture Samus game over...>.>
 

Memorable_Random_Guy

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SO? Ultra high gravities isnt a number, whereas mewtwo can just be WHOOPING *** MONSTLERY GRAVITY.

Chill, if you cant argue just leave the discussion.

And im off for some hours. cya.
And that would require a special attack stat of 9001 to work.

Look at the previous posts. Mewtwo is powerful for a pokemon, but not as a fictional character.

And good riddance.

Hmm time to throw my Samus Oppositon in there...>.>

We still haven't touched on the fact of the Dark Ball >.>
lol capture Samus game over...>.>
Good luck trying to use an attack you can't even learn naturally.

EDIT: LOL, I get it now. There are no balls that can capture humans in the games, and those are the ultimate canon.
 

UncleSam

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O well, ice is gravity affected.

Plasma too.

Light too.

Anti matter can be contained with a simples push. And is affected by gravity.

Anihilator too.

Nova beam: If you cant tell what is made off, you cant tell it is going to kill.
samus uses (I believe) a kinetic cannon so things are fired much faster than normal
this was discussed during the MR debate,
annihilator always homes towards it's target so if it started to fall it would reposition itself...
and wait a minute, if these beams are fired through a kinetic cannon, it would take more than mere seconds for it to fall especially objects made out of photons *coughlightcough* how far IS mewtwo away from samus anyway?
and does mewtwo really have the power to create massive gravitational fields?
I don't believe it really happened in the canon
and nova beam can fire through most objects including organic material, when mewtwo's head makes contact with a nova beam it goes straight through and blows up his brain, I said this before

Hmm time to throw my Samus Oppositon in there...>.>

We still haven't touched on the fact of the Dark Ball >.>
lol capture Samus game over...>.>
*coughlightsuitcough*
 

Sieguest

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oh yeah totally forgot about th....
I explained it didn't I?
boost ball breaks out of mewtwo's focus
and in hypermode she probably couldn't be moved anyway
Mind explaining...or linking me to a post that explains it...I'm not convinced
>.>
Nothing you guys have thrown has a CONVINCING counter to Samus being physically Manipulated by Mewtwo...

Turn into a morph ball?
Mewtwo still physically has control of her...
breaking mewtwo's focus...misassumed conditioning...good bye
Hypermode- Why could she not be moved eh? enlighten me...I've never played the Metroid games...>.>

EDIT:MRG finally got the joke...>.>
 

kirbywizard

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Mind explaining...or linking me to a post that explains it...I'm not convinced
>.>
Nothing you guys have thrown has a CONVINCING counter to Samus being physically Manipulated by Mewtwo...

Turn into a morph ball?
Mewtwo still physically has control of her...
breaking mewtwo's focus...misassumed conditioning...good bye
Hypermode- Why could she not be moved eh? enlighten me...I've never played the Metroid games...>.>

EDIT:MRG finally got the joke...>.>
Are we talking about the hyper mode that completely engulfs the user in phazon, causing any nearby organisms to be devoured by it?
 

day-day

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Doubt it.

In a realistic fight a lot of Samus's weapons would not work.

This was just an exception.

Still, in a realistic fight Mewtwo would be even more gimped.
Which ones wouldn't work? I'm curious to know.
You would think the most angriest and most powerful genetically engineered pokemon in the world would be able to beat a woman in a suit. She can't use her dark suit though am I right?
 

Sieguest

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No I wasn't saying anything about Mewtwo getting to close or something just guessing what hyper mode was, I played MP3 and I was just guessing that phazon corruption was it.
Oh, thanks for telling me...I remember asking to be enlightened about Metroid...Sorry about that! :)

*Lurks arguments....*
 

UncleSam

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holy crap everybody just left at once
and telekinesis is samus' only problem because I discussed how telepathy can't get into her head (srry for the pun)
and if samus if flung against a wall/long distance going into morphball negates damage
if you question how this works this is a canon battle
morph ball negating damage...
Chargable speed bursts used for offense, escape, speed, scaling Half-Pipes, and manipulating Spinners.
small description of what boost ball can do in wikitroid
as for not being able to be moved while in hypermode
only 2 things can damage you while in hyper mode:
Dark samus,
and overload grenades developed by the pirates to force you into/out of hypermode
large impacts don't move you
I.E. a strong force making contact with you that would cause you to move.
sorry for not getting it to you faster marthage
EDIT: samus doesn't need to be near mewtwo either
guess who uses ranged weapons
 

payasofobia

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Yo Marthage, I am back.

Look at the previous posts.

1) Samus's power suit can only be pierced by the fully upgraded beam. Flinging her against the wall won't do anything.

2) Confusion just flings people against a wall. Either that or it is a simple psychic blast as shown by the pokemon games description. Either way, it is useless against Samus.

3) She has fough against PSYCHIC supercomputers made by an extremely advanced race of the future and has survived psychic attacks multiple times. Heck, she can even survive the strongest psychic attack in the universe thrice.

4) Samus is psychic because of her Chozo blood which gives them every power they have, making her able to block psychic attacks with her own psych. She shows this by being able to manipulate molecules.


So yeah, if Samus can manipulate molecules while Mewtwo can only hope to erase your memory...that means she is a stronger psychic than Mewtwo.
 

UncleSam

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oh, and by the way any1 saying mewtwo is a god is wrong, Arceus is.
samus is just the what happens when species that are practically as old as time itself find their true path and develop some of the most powerful weapons in the universe.
 

Sieguest

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How do you escape from a telekinetic control? As soon as Mewtwo gains manipulation then there is nothing Samus can do, she's bent to Mewtwo's control...

Name the things that the boost ball escaped from?(this is an important question)


Mewtwo doesn't need to do damage...
As long as mewtwo has influence over her, Mewtwo can do a plethora of things to finish Samus off.

No worries...I could wait! :p


EDIT: This goes for you too Payasofobia

lol I'm about to get jumped....
*prepares counter questions* I'm the prosecuter here....>.>

Arecus>>>>>Mewtwo...
 

Memorable_Random_Guy

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We went through the 'MEWTWO CAN DO ANYTHING HE WANTS' phase a lot of posts ago.

He is just a strong pokemon.


JOE!, Samus was proven to be superior to Mewtwo in every possible way an we have:

Myself
Paya
Unclesam
Possibly you
day-day
and Bowser King who basically threw the towel in his last posts

Agreeing with Samus winning.

The only believable Pro-mewtwo posters are:
Marthage
and adumbreous.

Everyone else was either shut down quickly or made no sense at all.
 
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