I concur that Falco should be 5/5. He chaingrabs you to death almost, and he beats you out pretty badly. His uptilt beats almost all of your ground moves and all of your aerials, including the down air. His dair beats all of foxes moves as well. That along with better lasers and you have a pretty hard match-up.
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The Big Book of Fox Matchups
- Thread starter orintemple
- Start date
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Fox's Up B has one of, if not the, longest vertical recovery. Fox also has one of the fastest (Wolf is fastest) falling speeds. With these two traits Fox can avoid edgeguarding, if done correctly.
Since Fox can fall faster and recover more vertical ground than most characters, it's always a good idea when brought off the edge, to fast fall away from them and Shinestall until the time is right for an Up B. You can use the bottom of the stage as your safe zone.
Obviously you're timing must be precise, but like I've always said, and extremely intelligent Fox is the deadliest thing in Brawl.
Since Fox can fall faster and recover more vertical ground than most characters, it's always a good idea when brought off the edge, to fast fall away from them and Shinestall until the time is right for an Up B. You can use the bottom of the stage as your safe zone.
Obviously you're timing must be precise, but like I've always said, and extremely intelligent Fox is the deadliest thing in Brawl.
orintemple
Smash Lord
I am going to take your word for it. I belive that Falco will prove to be a very hard matchup but I can't change the guide until I fight a good Falco who can prove how good he is. I only know 1 Falco main and he isn't very good.
His UpB is also very predictable and easy to intecept due to the long start up time. Characters with disjointed hitboxes can easily come off the edge, hit you while your FireFoxing and mess it up without them getting hurt by the fire.
FireFox is good for straight vertical recovery if you drop to the lowest point possible then do it to sweetspot the ledge at a full vertical. It can hit opponents off the ledge if they mistime edgehogs and throw off the opponents timing. Most characters also can't come down that far to mess up your recovery while your still charging the fire without risking death themselves.
For horizontal recovery though, you usually want to opt for the illusion. That to is predictable and punishable but not as much as the firefox and people generally have a harder time intercepting it.
So overall Valken is right about the vertical goodness of it, just don't place too much faith in it because it can be punished easily. Also, never use it as an attack...
neji32
Smash Lord
You failed to mention that a smart/good link(like me) will easily spam bombs right infront of fox, fox will be hit and link and take advantage of this lag fox will have. The bomb approch will be done from air.
chaotic002
Smash Apprentice
true very true thus making fox suffer against projectile based characters like toon link or maybe a falco.
You guys do realize Fox does have a reflector right? Projectile based strategies lose effectiveness against Fox due to not only this but for him being easily able to close distance between him and his opponent. Characters who fair poor against projectile based strategies are people with no such defensive and no good options for closing distance, such as Ike. Thus Fox can easily get past projectiles due to speed or simply choose to force his opponent to approach with reflector + blaster. Fox has the ability to do this whereas most characters do not have this luxury of choosing whether to be the approacher or not.
orintemple
Smash Lord
Lol no, Link is not a Fox counter. Yes, you can throw bombs in front of Fox and make him get hit but eventually that becomes predictable. Fox's speed and massively superior air game takes Link to school. Bombs can only get you so far. A smart Fox will trap Link with combos and keep him airborne where Link is relatively useless. A really good player will also catch your bombs, which Link himself has a much harder time dealing with than Fox does. Link is better against Fox than one might think considering how poorly he does against most of the cast, but he is not a Fox counter by any means.
Fox does have a rough time against Toon Link and Falco but it is for different reasons.
Toon Link is rough because he is great at close range combat as well as having a wall of projectiles. The projectiles can be shined to a point but with Toon Link you generally spend a lifetime shining away projectiles and never doing any damage. That is why it gets hard with him.
Falco is not hard because of his laser. You can shine the laser easily enough and then possibly punish Falco for it if you're close enough. The problem with Falco is when he SHL or SHDLs your approaches. He also has more priority than Fox a lot of the time and can chaingrab Fox pretty easily into a spike if done correctly.
Projectiles do not beat Fox, only VERY well places ones do.
neji32
Smash Lord
yea but if links bombs blow up in front of him, the blaST WILL A STILL EFFECT FOX TRUST ME I DO IT ALL THE TIME
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Reflecting projectiles only gets you so far. It would be much easier to just run and powershield them, so you can at elast get close.
neji32
Smash Lord
-link is a lot better against fox than you think, link is still heavier and stronger than fox. links upsmash and up air have amazing priority and links down air should at least clash with foxes up smash if not over prioritize it. Links sliding up smash makes him alot tougher as well, your underestimating link
EnragedSnail
Smash Rookie
Just wanted to point out that Pit has 3 jumps, not 5.
orintemple
Smash Lord
While this is true, he is still very slow. A good Fox will be smart enough not to approach a Link from above. I am not saying Link is not a challenge at all. The more I play Link's the more I realize that he is quite a bit more annoying and difficult to fight than a character of that generally accepted competitive viability would be expected. That being said I still don't think he is a Fox counter. Fox still has the upper hand in more areas than Link.
And thanks for that mention Snail.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I still don't think bowser is 1/5. His attacks can hit you quite easily since they have deceiving range. Claw obviously is god, and it does 13 damage first hit, and it gives him a lot of movement, where he can use any aerial besides down air and still get another klaw hop. He is obviously powerful, and it is strangely easy for him to DI out of comboes at mid percents, he is deceivingly floaty, but not in the death way. He can escape comboes better than kirby.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
The magic of shielding, links dair is very predictable, so you can just shield it into an up smash.
orintemple
Smash Lord
Give me some time to play some good Bowsers. My research so far has proven Bowser to be a pushover. Thanks for the input though. I will, of course, take your ideas into consideration.
super_bacon807
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 143
How would that newly discovered grab glitch for Ness/Lucas affect their rating? I read in one topic that the grab glitch can lead to an Usmash, and that's all Fox needs to win...
orintemple
Smash Lord
Ah right, I should mention that. I don't want to change their ratings just yet, as that "glitch" MAY be banned. But if it isn't banned than Ness and Lucas' rating are gonna get a big drop.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
first thing i read:
and my thought was: someone with any knowledge of DI/ Air dodging, will be able to end the "combo" after the Dash attack. The Dash attack cannot combo into anything in brawl.
orintemple
Smash Lord
I've done dash attacks into u-tilts against many people. Good players included.
Hell, I did it to Overswarm... If he doesn't know DI then I don't know what to say.
You need to space it correctly so you don't overshoot or undershoot but it can be done. The smashes afterwards I have found to be increasingly more difficult as people get better with DI, but faster falling characters can still have even the smash done easily to them if you do all this at very low %.
neji32
Smash Lord
OMG
Link has complete advantage over fox. Foxes speed will not help him against link completly, a good link will know to do Dsmashes and ihis amazizing ranged Uptilt. I can't imagine a fox getting past a link, links are extreammly average making them perfect for anyone. How any good links have you fought? Links Nair is also good for stoping foxes recovery, it has more priority than foxes Forward B
Link has complete advantage over fox. Foxes speed will not help him against link completly, a good link will know to do Dsmashes and ihis amazizing ranged Uptilt. I can't imagine a fox getting past a link, links are extreammly average making them perfect for anyone. How any good links have you fought? Links Nair is also good for stoping foxes recovery, it has more priority than foxes Forward B
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
If you are going to point out all the good things about link, point out the bad. Hell...fox can outcamp link. Stay away with lasers, your projectiles are slow and predictable, we can either dodge or shine. Fox is fast, he can run towards you, run back for a mindgame, you will use your u-tilt or D-Smash and fox can get a hit or a few lasers. Also...links recovery is horrible......terribly horrible. One shine off the ledge is it, and its not that hard to get >_>
neji32
Smash Lord
You have like never played a good link have you? you keep pointing out the dumbest mistakes a link can make. Links all about aerial and bombs, if those two are in sync(aerial and bombs) then link will never be punished, besides by a souple of lasers. Hell foxes lasers dont even reach all of FD and links sheild can block them.Reflet links arrows as much as you want, most the time they won't even reach link back. If link were to fall for a dumb trick like that, then your not fighting a good one.
I have played a good Link as Fox (who isn't even CLOSE to being my best character) and I beat him easily.
Link's recovery is usually pretty easy to intercept, you can throw Link's own bombs back at him, his projectiles can usually be reflected without Fox having to worry about being punished, Fox's lasers rack on damage whenever Link isn't close by, Fox has an easier time killing Link than Link does for Fox, and Fox's speed can, and usually at some point, will **** Link nonstop.
All of that is bad for Link and what does he have to make up for that?
1. Better range/priority on most attacks.
2. Longer grab range (which can usually be punished if he misses).
3. High damage for a lot of attacks.
There's a lot of disadvantages for Link in this matchup compared to his advantages.
Link's recovery is usually pretty easy to intercept, you can throw Link's own bombs back at him, his projectiles can usually be reflected without Fox having to worry about being punished, Fox's lasers rack on damage whenever Link isn't close by, Fox has an easier time killing Link than Link does for Fox, and Fox's speed can, and usually at some point, will **** Link nonstop.
All of that is bad for Link and what does he have to make up for that?
1. Better range/priority on most attacks.
2. Longer grab range (which can usually be punished if he misses).
3. High damage for a lot of attacks.
There's a lot of disadvantages for Link in this matchup compared to his advantages.
soul ark
Smash Ace
snake scares the mess out of me what should i do
orintemple
Smash Lord
Let me get back to you on this when I figure it out myself. Snake out ranges, prioritizes, and damages you. He is pretty much superior in every way. All you can hope to do is try to get in some combos, because he has trouble getting out due to his size. D-air -> utilts work well on him, but make sure you aren't around any mines or grenades. You need to try and out speed him, get in your hits, before he can make a mess of the stage, and your face.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
To fight snake, you need to pressure him. But, when you try to pressure him too much, he will pull out grenades in mid-air, making them hit you. For snake...find a different character, and im being totally serious. If you are going to stay with fox, hope to get you shinespike him unter a level, since all the neutrals and most counterpicks have an underside of the level.
soul ark
Smash Ace
there has to be a way to approch snake with fox some how. perhaps with good timing i dont know
Browny
Smash Hater
hmm this guide is highyl opinionated... do some research on other characters forums as to what they think about fox, always good to present both sides of the argument.
anyway...
firstly Lucario is relatively heavy, a great deal more so than fox. lucario is as heavy to fox as bowser is heavy to Mario. its THAT big. lucario also has a cheap edgeguard vs fox, charge aura sphere backwards from the ledge. if you dont sweetpot the ledge, youre going to take a reasonable amount of damage. and if you overshoot, youre going to eat a full charge one, which can KO at 100%. using fox illusion is just too risky
sonic also isnt weak, his tilts and dsmash/fsmash have bigger range than yours, and hit harder. sonic is also possibly the fastest in the air. his up-b is unmatched, and his d-air is just as fast, and spammable unlike shiekd/ZSS's. hes also has the 6th highest horizontal airspeed movement, leagues ahead of fox's. his b-air can kick right through shine, amongst pretty much all of fox's aerials.
all that info was taken from various threads in the tactical discussion board, and some of my own testing sonic's strength vs the entire cast.
anyway...
Lucario
Lucario’s aerials are quick and have strange hitboxes, making him awkward to fight in the air. He can also combo well with them due to their low knockback. His d-air also lets him air stall and is quite powerful. Stick to the ground for this one. Fighting Lucario in the air is just too hard. His ground attacks are only of average speed and power, so that is where you want to be. You are much quicker than him here, so just fight him with your d-airs, n-airs, tilts, and smashes to come out victorious. One thing to note on the ground is that a good player will try a lot of jab cancels, which can lead into u-tilts for getting you into the air. He will also jab into forward B which is inescapable if you are hit by the initial jabs at lower %s. Be careful of his aura too. Lucario is relatively light so try to get a KO before 100% if you can. After that his aura gets strong enough to be a major threat to you. Use your superior ground speed to make this an easy fight. Go to the air if you want a challenge. 3.5/5
Sonic
Sonic isn’t that hard. He is really fast on the ground, but his attacks are not very good. It will be hard to keep up with him but your hits will do well and it will take a lot for him to kill you. Like Olimar, you may be overwhelmed by his general playstyle at first and lose(although not as badly as your first time against Olimar). He is very fast that it is really hard to hit him when your not used to it and he will be coming at you with attacks at every opening, but once you get used to the way he moves you can tear him up. Patience is key here. He has no projectiles to stop you and you can spam yours as long as you’re not careless. Sonic is very weak so you can overpower him easily. You have about equal range, but you have a bit of an advantage on a few. His up-b is really good (but only vertically) and he can attack while coming down so be aware of it. Sonic is very slow in the air and his aerials are only moderate, so you can take care of him up there too. Sonic is only the illusion of fast, so take him down with your real speed. 2.5/5
firstly Lucario is relatively heavy, a great deal more so than fox. lucario is as heavy to fox as bowser is heavy to Mario. its THAT big. lucario also has a cheap edgeguard vs fox, charge aura sphere backwards from the ledge. if you dont sweetpot the ledge, youre going to take a reasonable amount of damage. and if you overshoot, youre going to eat a full charge one, which can KO at 100%. using fox illusion is just too risky
sonic also isnt weak, his tilts and dsmash/fsmash have bigger range than yours, and hit harder. sonic is also possibly the fastest in the air. his up-b is unmatched, and his d-air is just as fast, and spammable unlike shiekd/ZSS's. hes also has the 6th highest horizontal airspeed movement, leagues ahead of fox's. his b-air can kick right through shine, amongst pretty much all of fox's aerials.
all that info was taken from various threads in the tactical discussion board, and some of my own testing sonic's strength vs the entire cast.
orintemple
Smash Lord
True Lucario is a lot heavier than Fox, but Fox weighs the same as MetaKnight, without all the floatiness and flying garbage, so thast isn't saying much. The main issue isn't so much his actual weight, as much as his floatiness giving him a lot of DI potential.
You make Sonic sound awesome, he's not. He does not have a whole bunch of priority over Fox as you make it sound, and his D-air is not spammable. Unless you spring stall with it, it is easily punished on when it touches ground. Fox outpowers Sonic a great deal, and Sonic only seems strong because Fox is so light. His B-air and F-smash, maybe D-smash are his only kill moves(unless you get the U-airs at the top of the screen), and they aren't that fast, just kinda average. Sonic is a little rough because it is hard to catch him, but once you get him, your attacks beat his.
Also, Fox will always have to worry about his illusion recovery being intercepted, thats just how it is. Fox's recovery in general is kind of bad, because of how predictable and easy to intercept it is.
Browny
Smash Hater
no, foxes smashes and tilts are weaker (knockback wise) and overall have less range, theres nothing else to it. At least test it yourself if you dont believe me before discounting it. i did all my testing against mario, so thier relative weights and strengths are irrelevant.
orintemple
Smash Lord
I never said they had more range, they don't, with exceptions, but Fox's attacks are quicker. Also, there is NO way Fox's U-smash is weaker than Sonic's you have to be on some hardcore drugs to believe that. Fox's F-smash has more range than Sonic's. The tilts are true, but tilts are not meant for killing, they are meant for setups and combos, unless you are Snake or D3 or something.
Some of your statements are true, but you didn't cover every attack.
soul ark
Smash Ace
wow every one knows what their talking about. i dont put that much thought into it.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Jiggs is harder than that imo. Jiggs can shourt hop double bair and shield stab u and cant really be punished, and fox gets beat badly in the air, and once hes off, jiggs can easily finish the job with a fair.
orintemple
Smash Lord
The only thing that works to my understanding is jumping out of it. It won't work right away though, you need to be higher % already before you can jump out of it, but you can get out before 80%.
Let me fight some more Jiggs and get back to that one. I believe Jiggs could be harder, since she is so awkward, but I have little proof.
soul ark
Smash Ace
srry im just gonna have to say no challenge becase of her lightness. as for pika stay away at all costs reflect, attack, avoid. dont let pika touch you
Ghettoman
Smash Apprentice
This should be stickied. I like the little pics be each name. very informative.
ihe4rtb0ba
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2007
- Messages
- 3
I have a lot of troubles with Toon Link. Everytime I'm shot into the air, I can't punish his Uair. Is this a problem for everyone or is it just me? I try to shine stall when he does one, then head into a Dair, but he does a second one before reaching the stage. I also tried getting him from the side while he was still in his Uair animation, but I was still hit anyways. Should I avoid it from now on? Because trying to punish him for it does not seem possible for me at this point.
soul ark
Smash Ace
toon link isn't that bad just pay attention to whats going on, attack when needed evade the attackswhen needed.wait are you saying that you try to shine spike toon link because if you are dont go down there it's not worth it.get him up to the 80's and try to kill him with the up smash.
hope it helps
hope it helps
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