The MetaGame Collection Thread ~Approaching Options (nondatewise) ~

[ark-angel]

Ledgecamping? Spam fsmash. Srsly.
Works every time.

i would not spam fsmash just for the fact that I used to play marth you roll around and then you wide open becuse of lag then what are you going to do? quick attack? we just charge fsmah so think before spammin that.

 

[Melomaniacal]

i would not spam fsmash just for the fact that I used to play marth you roll around and then you wide open becuse of lag then what are you going to do? quick attack? we just charge fsmah so think before spammin that.

Well, I wasn't being serious.
But rolling off the ledge is pretty easily punished, especially with Lucario's fsmash range and lingering hitbox. And rolling then charging a fsmash? Pfft, Lucario's fsmash isn't that laggy. Easily punishable.

 

[phi1ny3]

i would not spam fsmash just for the fact that I used to play marth you roll around and then you wide open becuse of lag then what are you going to do? quick attack? we just charge fsmah so think before spammin that.

That's why you space about 1-2 lucarios away from the edge, allows you for the most margin for options.
srsly tho, if they don't have a projectile to compliment their plank (like Yoshi or falco), it's a perfect opportunity to charge your AS. If they do, either PS to continue, or just hit them if since they aren't aiming to regrab the ledge until after they fire.

 

[Melomaniacal]

You just made me think... Lucario should be an official unit of measurement.

..."dude, I have a 40 Lucario flat-screen TV."

 

[Milln]

You just made me think... Lucario should be an official unit of measurement.

..."dude, I have a 40 Lucario flat-screen TV."

There's already a Captain Falcon system of measurement. This Loaf of bread is 3 Falcons long.

Please go to the store and buy a PAWNCH! of milk for me, please.


@Ledgestalling: The only options Lucario has to knock someone off of a ledge they are hanging on is dtilt, dair, or bair off the stage. Fsmash doesn't hit people on the ledge. Aura Sphere only hits if it's huge and if a bit of them are poking above the stage, like Olimar.

 

[Ilucamy]

Phil, what do you mean by having a "projectile to compliment their plank"?

Oh and what I do sometimes is just charge my aurasphere around their rolling range just to take away one of their options. If they roll they get charged/grabbed, if they get up, they get hit by it.

If they attack, I lol.

Oh and I've hit people with a b-sticked aurasphere while they were on the ledge. It feels really awkward though because a lot of times I accidentally do a FP while flying off the stage >_>........

Hey, I need 5 KICK!s of helium for my science project.

 

[phi1ny3]

Phil, what do you mean by having a "projectile to compliment their plank"?

Oh and what I do sometimes is just charge my aurasphere around their rolling range just to take away one of their options. If they roll they get charged/grabbed, if they get up, they get hit by it.

If they attack, I lol.

Oh and I've hit people with a b-sticked aurasphere while they were on the ledge. It feels really awkward though because a lot of times I accidentally do a FP while flying off the stage >_>........

Hey, I need 5 KICK!s of helium for my science project.

As in LHL (ledge Hopped laser) or egg-stalling. If you have a character with decent projectile options that help get your damage up or discourage edgeguarding, charging AS is a little trickier, but still possible (just need to PS then resume charging).

Edit: Ooh, what's your SCIENCE! project?

 

[The_Bear735]

i would not spam fsmash just for the fact that I used to play marth you roll around and then you wide open becuse of lag then what are you going to do? quick attack? we just charge fsmah so think before spammin that.

....... By lag you better not mean "playing online" lag.

And quick attack? I'll assume you meant ES, and EEH is pretty useless to anyone who's not a tether.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Okay so when I snatch diddy's nannerz, what should I do with them? Basically what's the best follow up from a nanner trip?

 

[|RK|]

I suppose use em' like Diddy Kong would. Turn them from a Diddy's best friend to your worst enemy.

EDIT: After you trip stay there for, like, one second, watch what they're doing and roll appropriately. Trip Attack is situational.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I mean specific moves/combos.

 

[tedward2000]

Promise has been semi upheld.
Keep pumping out those moves that are hard to beat.

Like for example, DDD chain grab.
Go
-t2

 

[Melomaniacal]

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that it's pretty difficult to chain grab Lucario as DDD. Every DDD I've played has messed it up like, half the times in a match. If you can't wiggle out, just hold shield and try to immediately roll away, or towards him. Although it is inescapable if done perfectly, I think it's pretty easy to mess it up vs. Lucario.

 

[Milln]

How to get around ledgestalling or planking. Come on, you guys keep shying away from the subject.

 

[tedward2000]

How to get around ledgestalling or planking. Come on, you guys keep shying away from the subject.

cause its scary milln. Plus, why you start it? cause half the board doesnt know what your talking about in the first place.

So, kick it off.
/orders
-t2

 

[Milln]

.......

Say a MetaKnight has a percent advantage on you and is scared of how beast you are and runs over to the ledge and camps it with uair, fair, shuttle loop, or just regular jumping back to it.

Fsmash doesn't hit, dtilt isn't safe, ftilt down isn't safe, Aura Sphere doesn't hit, Bair off the ledge isn't safe, fair isn't safe, dair isn't safe.

Only thing I can think of is run up to the ledge and shield, but that doesn't work all the time, especially if I have a damaged shield.

 

[phi1ny3]

Easy, if he's planking, get charging on your AS, it's his fault he's letting you get a good projectile going. If you have charged it and he's still planking, bait with jab, SHAD, or SH -> double jump, and pray that he doesn't hit you (follow after with whatever aerial or punish if he didn't do the right choice). I'm also pretty sure that dtilt is somewhat safe if spaced properly.

 

[WhiteOblv]

so can lucario be chaingrabbed by DDD?

 

[phi1ny3]

so can lucario be chaingrabbed by DDD?

Yes, unless he messes up, D3 can CG lucario. Although falco can't (which is nice).

 

[Aurasmash14]

one of the vids phil showed me had azen chaingrabbed twince by DDD. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o73hi5Hu2I

 

[phi1ny3]

one of the vids phil showed me had azen chaingrabbed twince by DDD. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o73hi5Hu2I

You want Chain grabs galore?
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oECew6wDH98
This is the match Azen (and all of us) learned that AAFP does not work on good opponents.

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3YKg...eature=related
ROB spotdodge (or in OR "the t0mmy") = broken. Prolly jab, but shouldn't fsmash be doing what it should?

 

[T0MMY]

Nobody in Oregon calls that "the t0mmy" lol. I don't pull that newb tactic, I'm all about the Gyro game.
Hitori in NV spot dodges a lot, and almost always to D-Smash, name it the Hitori :^p

 

[Alus]

This is the match Azen (and all of us) learned that AAFP does not work on good opponents.

That move disgusted me a long time ago... i would only try it on heavy opponents while i was at low %.

 

[phi1ny3]

Nobody in Oregon calls that "the t0mmy" lol. I don't pull that newb tactic, I'm all about the Gyro game.
Hitori in NV spot dodges a lot, and almost always to D-Smash, name it the Hitori :^p

Lol t0mmy, where'd you come from? You have like, super senses.
Fine, the Hitori, and yes, you do do a lot of gyro-glidetoss shenanigans.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

*attempts to bump (50% chance of epic fail)*

This is a good thread, and the Lucario boards seem a bit short on good threads atm. Is tedward still active? Because we ought to bring this thread back and talk about approach options as a new subject.

 

[tedward2000]

*Yawns*

Ya, Im still here. I cannot believe how many times this thread has risen from the ashes. This makes at least 3 or 4th. And Its Easter! (IRONY!)

Mmk, Well If you say so Morning, We shall give it a shot. And Ill finish the other section too.

So Approach Options is a Go!
-t2

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Cool beans!

Okay, so I suggested approaches because this is probably where I get ***** (when I do get *****). There's the good ole Fair approach that has a number of mixups and can be difficult to punish if you mix it up enough. From Fair, we can opt for a Nair, which will likely get shieldgrabbed if it fails, Dair which gets MURDERED if it is shielded (generally speaking), or you can slide right past them and do a Bair, which seems less likely to be punished but also seems less likely to connect.

Oh, and there's also weird Aura Sphere Charge shenanigans that I don't really effectively use =/.

So, I for one, really need some more approach options. Approaching only with Fair, especially on grounded opponents, seems like a good way to set yourself up for a loss.

 

[phi1ny3]

What should make your fair approach a lot better is if you keep walling with it against characters that can't outwall, then when they expect your SH to turn into a fair and they shield, do what the marthers do: empty SH->fastfall into a grab/FP, or just plain a ground attack with better shield pressure (although unlike marth, we don't have a really good tilt to zone with aka marth/MK dtilt).

 

[Aurasmash14]

Lucario doesn't have much approach options. Personally I just let them come to me then drive them back until the ledge where i go for the kill. repeat three times to win.

 

[Aurasmash14]

You want Chain grabs galore?
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oECew6wDH98
This is the match Azen (and all of us) learned that AAFP does not work on good opponents.

I never bothered to watch this until now.. Im quite surprised that Azen was getting licked for once.

 

[CaliburChamp]

How about edge guarding your opponent when your opponent is ledge camping to run the clock?
For me spamming F-smash while your opponent is ledgecamping seems like the best option. Or do a brief AS charge, then cancel it and F-smash.

 

[Myre]

I really wish I had more experience fighting campy players. Especially planking, now that that seems to be the craze. I understand there are some invincible frames and whatnot, and then he has some counter techniques. I just don't know what our options are from them. Maybe someone could make a video? Eh, Milln? Inner Fire 12? How to defeat Plankers? Eh? EH?!

 

[Shadowfang89]

I hate to get a little off topic again but i am really curious why so many Lucarios say, "Don't use DT"... I mean, i agree that DT is a bad move, and almost certainly lucarios worst move, but i think shutting down a move just because its our worst isnt always a good idea, i tend to follow the rule, One DT per set(Excluding reverse DT for approach although i use that rarely).... the reason i follow this rule... is because while DT can be shielded and has startup lag ect ect ect.... it is still a mind game, and it is still a kill move, and kill moves are good, I mean, im down to my last stock my opponent has started reading my forward smashes and down airs, and im having trouble hitting that last kill, and i havent double teamed EVER against him, especially not to attack him, and i predict a smash or a laggy move(preferebly) and i just use it, just once, and there ya go, nabs a kill because he didnt see it coming(not that he should have)... Iono, i think writing a move off entirely is a bad idea when developing a metagame even if that move isnt very good.... Ive gotten kills against pretty good players this way...

Anyways, ive made my point, and i could very well be wrong, so i was wondering why so many Lucarios say "never use DT"....

 

[HyperEnergy]

Newer players shouldn't be using DT against more experienced players ever. There's nothing wrong with using it when you see an opponent's attack coming from a mile away (which will happen often enough with experienced players).

As for approaching, a FCAS can help you close the distance a little even if it doesn't hit. If they jump, that's almost always a good thing and if they shield you can inch forward a bit and start putting pressure on them with aerials.

Lucario's ground game, however, doesn't seem to be approach-friendly...

 

[tedward2000]

Ya, Cario's ground game isnt really approach friendly in the slightest. Actually if you could refrain more from approaching with lucario, you'd be better off.

As for DT. It is a really bad move, but like said, it does have its random moments of use. However those random moments, are well...random. Its so situational that we'd have to start making up stories in ways that it would work to make our points or create a metagame off of it.
From that, we'd have these fabricated ideas for DT that would never see light in another match.
Like for instance, I once used RDT to recover back to Battle field somewhat from one of pits arrows, then used ES to save myself.
As true as that was, We cant use that other then RDT can sometimes be used to recover.

DT is just frowned so that people new to lucario don't go hog wild with the move. If you get to pull it off, congrats cherish the memory, and save the video.
-t2

 

[supergamer001]

If I have to approach I use Ftilt Dtilt jab and Fair.

An experimental side note maybe a mixup of bAS up close, I'll try it out tomorrow.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Well, if there's no new ideas for approaching we should consider the alternative.

If you're dealing with a character that can outcamp you, I suppose the smartest thing would be powershielding. My friend has a superb Ike, and one of his most effective tactics against my Lucario.

He calls it his "Walk of Death", which is a bit annoying, and all it really is is slowly walking toward your enemy while powershielding each projectile. Once you get too close, you will often intimidate your opponent into rolling or jumping. This is very punishable for Lucario, primarily through Dtilt and Fsmash can put the pressure on hard once you get close enough. I think this tactic would work well for Lucario by merit of his long range.

Also note that getting hit by projectiles isn't ALWAYS a bad idea. Here's something I said in another thread.

So I was fighting this guy's link today... I was a stock ahead at about 130%. Link was doing one of the things he does best: spam. It was mostly uncharged arrows. Normally people who do this get me all off-balance and frustrated. But then I realized, he was the one who had to kill me, and he wasn't going to do it with arrows.

So I just chilled. I charged an aura sphere, then cancelled it with shield and let myself be hit by the arrow. Then I fired it and let myself be hit by another SH'd arrow. I got an extra 40% onto him with aura sphere. Eventually he realized this was useless and he had to approach me. Fsmash, ShieldGrabs, and Fair combos tore him to shreds, and by the time I died, I was at 174% and he was at 134% a stock behind. This enabled me to two-stock him at 22%.

I would theorize that letting those annoying dumb useless projectiles hit you will create some sort of satisfaction within your opponent and he will be more likely to continue his spammy behavior. If I had powershielded them, he would have realized sooner that this wasn't doing jack squat and he would have gone after the kill and probably gotten it sooner. But by allowing things like Wolf's blaster, Pit's/Link/Tlink's arrows, and maybe even Falco's blaster, I get a prolonged chance to pelt my opponent with aura spheres the size of friggin' DK (which can be hard to dodge).

I guess in summarization, if you're a stock up at high %'s, always force the approach. That's a bit obvious, but also allow yourself to get hit by attacks with no knockback to mess with their mind and own them. This, ofc, doesn't work well vs. someone with really powerful projectiles like snake. This is NOT sandbagging, this is mindgames and extra aura boost at no cost.

It works as a mindgame and Lucario is the best character to use it because of his aura. If you're going to die to a strong attack anyways, go for it (providing it's a low damage and knockback projectile).

 

[HyperEnergy]

I've taken a look at some frame data for grabs and stuff, and a fast falled nair into an uptilt (assuming you're facing away from them) might be a good approach if they shield. Grabs don't start until at least frame 6 but uptilt comes out on frame 5. With proper spacing you could fool someone into getting out of their shield at the wrong time, kinda like Fox's shine from melee. Now, if only I had someone to test this on...

 

[Kitamerby]

I've taken a look at some frame data for grabs and stuff, and a fast falled nair into an uptilt (assuming you're facing away from them) might be a good approach if they shield. Grabs don't start until at least frame 6 but uptilt comes out on frame 5. With proper spacing you could fool someone into getting out of their shield at the wrong time, kinda like Fox's shine from melee. Now, if only I had someone to test this on...

Spaced dair spam on a shield to Nair uses this mentality.

Try it. Full hop/land about a full Dair's distance up from their shield, and use Dair two or three times followed by a Nair once you reach their counter-attack range. You will hit them until they learn, which will be a long time, since this seems to pry at a human instinct or some shiz.