Lycan_Rawr
Smash Cadet
I dun like Reliability as a topic of discussion. Too many variables + what the hell do you mean?
-
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The MetaGame Collection Thread ~Approaching Options (nondatewise) ~
- Thread starter tedward2000
- Start date
manhunter098
Smash Lord
I personally am pretty sure this refers to the reliability of specific tactics and patterns. What is an effective way to edgeguard a specific character for instance? Or how do you maximize your ability to make sure somebody cant approach. And of course how well these tactics work.
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
I see what you mean, but I guess everyone interprets reliability differently >_> I interpreted it as how well a move does its job and how safe it keeps you while damaging your opponent. For example, how reliable bair is at killing (that's pretty much it's job) and how easy it will be to pull that off.
You're referring to the reliability of tactics which is entirely different (though I have to say, I like that idea better).
You're referring to the reliability of tactics which is entirely different (though I have to say, I like that idea better).
Samuelson
Smash Lord
You have the right idea. I think I'm gonna make a thread dedicated to how reliable certain moves are against certain characters. This section is too broad to not have it's own thread.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Yea, Reliability, too broad for one rotation, let alone like 4.
So.. before more people get confused...
*poof rotation change*
-t2
*edit
Oh and props to Ilucamy for trying and doing something!
Anyone have an idea of what to...
Oh!
Lets give this a shot,
Defensive Strategies!
-what is defensive?
-hows lucario good at it
-what does it do to the other players playstyle (aka changes in move patterns, stuff like that)
-grandma's cookies, delicious, y/n?
*edit #2
Ok go check out the OP on more info of what im talking about or be lazy and read below...
"So there's more to Brawl and match-up's and what moves do this many %'s.
Theres also (or supposed to be) a mental player vs. player side to it.
Here we will break-down the defensive side of the lucario game."
thats the criteria, go.
So.. before more people get confused...
*poof rotation change*
-t2
*edit
Oh and props to Ilucamy for trying and doing something!
Anyone have an idea of what to...
Oh!
Lets give this a shot,
Defensive Strategies!
-what is defensive?
-hows lucario good at it
-what does it do to the other players playstyle (aka changes in move patterns, stuff like that)
-grandma's cookies, delicious, y/n?
*edit #2
Ok go check out the OP on more info of what im talking about or be lazy and read below...
"So there's more to Brawl and match-up's and what moves do this many %'s.
Theres also (or supposed to be) a mental player vs. player side to it.
Here we will break-down the defensive side of the lucario game."
thats the criteria, go.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yay! Rerun of playstyle, only covering one half of it. But this is definitely important. Though I do like the reliability stuff.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
yea, manhunter was the closest to what the reliability discussion was to be about.
But people took it wrong (and still had great data, no hating here) and others go confused.
Plus, we need to stop talking about moves, and get to the other side of competitive gaming, the players.
-t2
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
Agreed. Onto the next rotation 
So are we doing in depth analytical deciphering of Lucario's defensive playstyle (how it affects the opponent, how AT's come into play, mindgames) or just stating the basics, how to do it, how it works, etc. Or both? I'm not really sure on this.
Well, I'll put the basic stuff down first, that's easy. If you want to be a good defensive Lucario, the following aspects are what you need to practice and perfect, in order.
1. Don't get hit- well actually, learn to anticipate the opponents actions and act accordingly, shield it, or move away, this includes learning whether to spotdodge, roll, shield, or even just move out of the way of certain attacks.
2. DI- This is huge, this is also what I've been working on lately. Learn the correct way to DI kill moves and DI out of multi-hit moves. Remember, the order is: DI, Dair, Fastfall if you want more information, you'll have to find a DI guide somewhere (it's simple and they're really common, I'm just doing what I know in my head)
3. Advanced Punishing tactics- this means, learn to draw out the opponent's moves and punish them for it. Know to punish with a smash, tilt, jab, special, whatever. Know how to punish certain characters for doing different actions.
4. Spacing- Know Lucario's range, it goes really far. If you're going to attack, ALWAYS stay as far as you can while still hitting them. NEVER go further into their territory then you need to attack. This means, those F-smashes better be tipped.
5. WALK- Walking is probably the single, simplest thing you can do to improve your game. Walking slows everything down and gives you the time and precision you need to space yourself correctly and anticipate the foe's moves. It also leaves all your options open so you can punish that whiffed Fire Jump punch.
Well now that we got the basics out of the way, we can talk about mindgames yes? (lol, I feel like I'm pushing out all this information just so we can get to the good stuff faster XD)
You know, my sig should just be "If I forgot anything or gave false information in this post, please correct me, I usually make stupid mistakes like that"
So are we doing in depth analytical deciphering of Lucario's defensive playstyle (how it affects the opponent, how AT's come into play, mindgames) or just stating the basics, how to do it, how it works, etc. Or both? I'm not really sure on this.
Well, I'll put the basic stuff down first, that's easy. If you want to be a good defensive Lucario, the following aspects are what you need to practice and perfect, in order.
1. Don't get hit- well actually, learn to anticipate the opponents actions and act accordingly, shield it, or move away, this includes learning whether to spotdodge, roll, shield, or even just move out of the way of certain attacks.
2. DI- This is huge, this is also what I've been working on lately. Learn the correct way to DI kill moves and DI out of multi-hit moves. Remember, the order is: DI, Dair, Fastfall if you want more information, you'll have to find a DI guide somewhere (it's simple and they're really common, I'm just doing what I know in my head)
3. Advanced Punishing tactics- this means, learn to draw out the opponent's moves and punish them for it. Know to punish with a smash, tilt, jab, special, whatever. Know how to punish certain characters for doing different actions.
4. Spacing- Know Lucario's range, it goes really far. If you're going to attack, ALWAYS stay as far as you can while still hitting them. NEVER go further into their territory then you need to attack. This means, those F-smashes better be tipped.
5. WALK- Walking is probably the single, simplest thing you can do to improve your game. Walking slows everything down and gives you the time and precision you need to space yourself correctly and anticipate the foe's moves. It also leaves all your options open so you can punish that whiffed Fire Jump punch.
Well now that we got the basics out of the way, we can talk about mindgames yes? (lol, I feel like I'm pushing out all this information just so we can get to the good stuff faster XD)
You know, my sig should just be "If I forgot anything or gave false information in this post, please correct me, I usually make stupid mistakes like that"
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Yes walking is a very good thing to learn. You can do everything out of a walk and you can't say the same out of sprinting. You also trip if you run and characters don't trip if they walk. Learning how to DI is crucial for all styles of gameplay lol.
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
I know, but it just seemed like something I had to include. I mean seriously, if I saw a list like that without DI, I'd say something about it XD
Walking takes a lot of getting used to though (for me anyway -.-) it took me a while to adjust from running, but I did it
Anyway, my usefulness on this subject ends there, I don't know too much about Lucario's defensive game and how others react to it. I use a mainly offensive Lucario (but I'm trying to integrate defensiveness) so I can't really help you guys with that kind of discussion.
Walking takes a lot of getting used to though (for me anyway -.-) it took me a while to adjust from running, but I did it
Anyway, my usefulness on this subject ends there, I don't know too much about Lucario's defensive game and how others react to it. I use a mainly offensive Lucario (but I'm trying to integrate defensiveness) so I can't really help you guys with that kind of discussion.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
Oh my, this thread is getting no attention.
C'mon people, contribute to the community
When recovering, always be keep yourself safe, spam fairs while you're DIing back to the stage and stall yourself with a dair every once in a while. Mix it up and don't get as predictable as jump>DI towards>Up-B.
Ugh... you see, this is why you guys need to contribute instead of me >_>
C'mon people, contribute to the community
When recovering, always be keep yourself safe, spam fairs while you're DIing back to the stage and stall yourself with a dair every once in a while. Mix it up and don't get as predictable as jump>DI towards>Up-B.
Ugh... you see, this is why you guys need to contribute instead of me >_>
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Wow, like things around the threads have died.
Woo hoo...?
Ok, so I'll give out a taste.
One thing a Defensive lucario should always be talking note of is what the other players habits or responses are.
Like for example, if 7/10 times the person fast fall's a Dair when attacking, $5 says they're proly going to do it again.
Little things like that, defensive lucario's should be taking more note into, then and aggressive or neutral player.
Theres some firewood, go make some smores.
-t2
Woo hoo...?
Ok, so I'll give out a taste.
One thing a Defensive lucario should always be talking note of is what the other players habits or responses are.
Like for example, if 7/10 times the person fast fall's a Dair when attacking, $5 says they're proly going to do it again.
Little things like that, defensive lucario's should be taking more note into, then and aggressive or neutral player.
Theres some firewood, go make some smores.
-t2
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
Edit: Nevermind. It's not helpful for me to post that.
Blood_Hawk
Smash Lord
Contribute to what?
Lucario has nothing in his repertoire that we haven't seen or used yet that we haven't already discussed. He is pretty straight forward by now and any advances to his metagame rely on spacing and move choice alone. Trying to come up with things is pointless. All the talk on match ups and play style is done in another thread, so this one really has nowhere to go. That is why it is dying.
Lucario has nothing in his repertoire that we haven't seen or used yet that we haven't already discussed. He is pretty straight forward by now and any advances to his metagame rely on spacing and move choice alone. Trying to come up with things is pointless. All the talk on match ups and play style is done in another thread, so this one really has nowhere to go. That is why it is dying.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
None taken Wolfy, I to know this, and this is more for those new to playing lucario.
But those too are lax.
But something needs to happen around here.
-t2
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
What about grounded footstool jumps to D-air. They seem effective. At least for me. It makes D-air more safe to hit with.
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
Those only work if your opponent is standing still. If he's attacking or shielding/dodging it does nothing.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
A few days ago I got two DT kills in the same match. It's actually pretty good to use when you're both +100%. If you're dealing with spam, get in midrange and double team, the point where he starts will often nail them. You'd be surprised how far back it reaches. If you're farther away, use reverse double team to close the distance.
When I'm playing defensive I often find it works quite well just to get yourself in a position where you can BAS and Fsmash without getting punished. 2 BAS and then an Fsmash hit if they can't manage to jump or move away. It happens more often than you'd expect.
Fsmash is my chief defensive move. It works well because of it's range, disjoint, and lingering hitbox. You can punished poor aerial approaches if you take a step of two backward.
When I'm playing defensive I often find it works quite well just to get yourself in a position where you can BAS and Fsmash without getting punished. 2 BAS and then an Fsmash hit if they can't manage to jump or move away. It happens more often than you'd expect.
Fsmash is my chief defensive move. It works well because of it's range, disjoint, and lingering hitbox. You can punished poor aerial approaches if you take a step of two backward.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
After this, could we talk about ftilt and dtilt? Both have good properties, but don't get much play (I mean, ftilt is a double hitter, which is good for someone who only clicks shield on and tries to follow up), and dtilt (stable damage, gets decent damage at low% and doesn't change much, good range, faster than ftilt and some other moves). Either that, or we could discuss when to use single A, AA, or finish the combo with last A, and the follow-ups out of it).
TK Wolf
Smash Ace
I found a technique exclusive to Lucario! I call it the Lucario Trot.
This is an excellent way to catch your opponents off guard.
Do this, then Fsmash your opponent while he's distracted.
This is an excellent way to catch your opponents off guard.
Do this, then Fsmash your opponent while he's distracted.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I like playing defensive for the first quarter of the match so they get used to my defensive play style. After i can see them racking up a little bit of damage i will switch it up and play really aggressive. It tends to take a bunch of people off guard and usually gets me the first kill of the match.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
F-tilt is good against people that like to spot dodge alot. The hitbox stays out so long, that when the invincibility ends from the dodge, they will be hit by the second hit of F-tilt. F-tilt can also poke through shields, escpecially when you angle it downwards.
D-tiilt is one of Lucario's safest's moves to use, which means you won't get punished for using it often. The way Lucario leans back and sticks out his foot, and the range is pretty big too and its quick, and it has moderate knockback. If you keep spamming it on a shielded opponent, your opponent is going to get hit since the move is really quick.
Also its good to mix it up. If your opponent is used to you doing A,A, force palm, or A, A, grab, he is going to prepare himself to side step, so then you can use A,A, d-tilt or A,A, f-tilt. The moves come out quick enough and have very little cooldown, which can help prevent you getting punished.
D-tiilt is one of Lucario's safest's moves to use, which means you won't get punished for using it often. The way Lucario leans back and sticks out his foot, and the range is pretty big too and its quick, and it has moderate knockback. If you keep spamming it on a shielded opponent, your opponent is going to get hit since the move is really quick.
Also its good to mix it up. If your opponent is used to you doing A,A, force palm, or A, A, grab, he is going to prepare himself to side step, so then you can use A,A, d-tilt or A,A, f-tilt. The moves come out quick enough and have very little cooldown, which can help prevent you getting punished.
Pretty much agree with the above on f-tilt and d-tilt myself.
Question: How do others use u-smash. I realize yes, it has lots of lag/startup time, but that hitbox is nuts. Anyone willing to discuss applications of u-smash's spiral hitbox (aka the invisible part around lucario)?
If so, to start off, that thing clashes with so many moves... it's rather shocking to an opponent when they go to f-smash and it gets canceled out by the U-smash you did a few seconds ago, especially if the upward burst has faded already. Anyone else get some use out of it like that? I also find it tends to go through a large number of d-airs, which tends to be useful if you get the timing down.
Question: How do others use u-smash. I realize yes, it has lots of lag/startup time, but that hitbox is nuts. Anyone willing to discuss applications of u-smash's spiral hitbox (aka the invisible part around lucario)?
If so, to start off, that thing clashes with so many moves... it's rather shocking to an opponent when they go to f-smash and it gets canceled out by the U-smash you did a few seconds ago, especially if the upward burst has faded already. Anyone else get some use out of it like that? I also find it tends to go through a large number of d-airs, which tends to be useful if you get the timing down.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Wee....
Gotta love the Lucario boards. We died. XP
-t2
Gotta love the Lucario boards. We died. XP
-t2
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
When I Usmash, usually it's an accident, but I punish rolls accidentally a lot with with. Usmash, they roll into me, profit.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
So like, woo hoo, we're amazing?
Um.... is there something someone wants to talk about??
-t2?
Um.... is there something someone wants to talk about??
-t2?
Browny
Smash Hater
Why is utilt so good?
i mean, in the league of marth fair, MK dair good
i mean, in the league of marth fair, MK dair good
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Against good players, Usmash sucks even more than DT (I tried many instances to use it, and good players will punish it horribly, like if you try to hit them on an above platform).
Then again, I was playing best MK in Washington at that tourney, and Dog Latin is kind of scary...
Sorry, thinking out loud!
I found usmash only good for punishing after they expect an uair and prepare for it with a dair or nair or something like that.
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Right-o.
So srsly, Phil, is there something that YOU want to talk about, cause Your now running what, 3 threads about moves and match-ups?
So, we can splice this sleeping thread open.
-t2
*EDIT
NVM, new updated isnt done yet...
But theres a new topic!
pew pew
So srsly, Phil, is there something that YOU want to talk about, cause Your now running what, 3 threads about moves and match-ups?
So, we can splice this sleeping thread open.
-t2
*EDIT
NVM, new updated isnt done yet...
But theres a new topic!
pew pew
Forget b-stick/pseudo-stick/all that crap, turn-around sphere is infinitely more useful. Turn-around b moves give you the most control out of your projectile - very important stuff.
Applications:
When edgeguarding: full hop bair->(they airdodge toward you)->turn-around sphere
Marth/Meta is rushing you down: dash backwards->hit b and jam back on control stick
The second one might be called b-reversal or whatever (same thing if you ask me), but you get the idea.
Applications:
When edgeguarding: full hop bair->(they airdodge toward you)->turn-around sphere
Marth/Meta is rushing you down: dash backwards->hit b and jam back on control stick
The second one might be called b-reversal or whatever (same thing if you ask me), but you get the idea.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Wow, this thread is collecting hypertext dust on it.
I has an idea: Next discussion (or even what to make this thread into): Discussion on how to deal with the most annoying/gay/broken moves in the game. How does that sound?
I has an idea: Next discussion (or even what to make this thread into): Discussion on how to deal with the most annoying/gay/broken moves in the game. How does that sound?
Trela
Smash Lord
I think I might Post in here cause of the next Discussion!
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Sounds like a Plan.
Ill Be sure to revamp this idea into a Greater and More general topic, actually Ill just make it the main thing of the Thread.
Time for some Revamping!
-t2
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
Can we also include how to DI some common kill moves that aren't so obvious like Snake's U-tilt.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yeah, it's all about how to deal with the super moves, so I guess snake's utilt/tilts could be the first move.
Timbers
check me out
Snake's ftilt is really easy to deal with regarding DI, as you're technically stuck in hitlag for a very long time, and you have for like ever to DI the hit properly.
Utilt usually won't be used unless in some form of retaliation, or out of a jab cancel. At high percents, expect the utilt when in either situation and DI accordingly.
Utilt is actually quite easy to avoid. It kills you at like 105 but it's never uncommon for Lucario to survive past 140 against Snake. Don't let Snake gain defensive control and you'll have him scrambling to get you off him with the likes of ftilt or nades, both of which are much less lethal than the utilt.
Utilt usually won't be used unless in some form of retaliation, or out of a jab cancel. At high percents, expect the utilt when in either situation and DI accordingly.
Utilt is actually quite easy to avoid. It kills you at like 105 but it's never uncommon for Lucario to survive past 140 against Snake. Don't let Snake gain defensive control and you'll have him scrambling to get you off him with the likes of ftilt or nades, both of which are much less lethal than the utilt.
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
K, because I fought this Snake at the tourney I went to yesterday and I saw the U-tilt coming, but I DI'd it wrong.
I kept screwing up by rolling into him... ugh f-tilt. But otherwise I was doing pretty well until that U-tilt kill that I thought I would survive. So are you supposed to DI into him or something? I DI'd out and got killed at a lower percentage than I had expected.
I kept screwing up by rolling into him... ugh f-tilt. But otherwise I was doing pretty well until that U-tilt kill that I thought I would survive. So are you supposed to DI into him or something? I DI'd out and got killed at a lower percentage than I had expected.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
I guess for starters, don't EVER roll into snake or marth.
I need to know how to deal with Diddy's bananas. How to avoid, how to throw 'em back, and how to not get owned if you do trip. We should talk about that as well.
I need to know how to deal with Diddy's bananas. How to avoid, how to throw 'em back, and how to not get owned if you do trip. We should talk about that as well.