The MetaGame Collection Thread ~Approaching Options (nondatewise) ~

[manhunter098]

Dash attack and the z button work very well for grabbing them, try to land and catch them as that can help you avoid slipping and dont ever get up when he has a banana on the ledge, jump and grab it with z as you land, and protect yourself with an aerial.

 

[Timbers]

K, because I fought this Snake at the tourney I went to yesterday and I saw the U-tilt coming, but I DI'd it wrong.

I kept screwing up by rolling into him... ugh f-tilt. But otherwise I was doing pretty well until that U-tilt kill that I thought I would survive. So are you supposed to DI into him or something? I DI'd out and got killed at a lower percentage than I had expected.

It seems you can DI the utilt in a much more horizontal fashion if you DI the hit into Snake. If you whiff or something and you're in killrange, expect the utilt and DI it. Also yeah never roll into characters, Snake is just all that more dangerous to roll into.

 

[Ilucamy]

Well, I didn't really roll into him, I rolled towards him to avoid a dash-grab.

The F-tilt still got me =/

I'd say it's more important not to roll into Luigi. I was fighting my friend who also uses Lucario and he got predictable with his rolling. I pulled off Up-b on him twice right out of his roll and got a mid 60s kill.

How should you DI the tornado and shuttle loop? Sometimes I get hit horizontally by the shuttle loop and other times I get KO'd vertically. I'm not sure if it's my DI or just how I got hit by it.

 

[Fizzle]

SDI the tornado up and dair/airdodge.

DI shuttle loop up unless you're hit with the initial part of the hitbox -- i.e. if they're using it grounded. In that case, DI away.

 

[phi1ny3]

For tornado, shield, DI away from the direction they are moving in, then AD. If you feel like attacking it, dair, and sometimes FCAS will work.

For shuttle loop, like the above post said, DI up from it when it is in the most of the animation, if it was on the start of it, DI away. The best option though it to never approach with an attack, use run shield against shuttle loop, or even do walking to fake/bait it and use good spacing in attacks. If he's going to glide attack, expect a dsmash after it almost always, which means leave your shield up for 2 attacks, or if your timing is good, spotdodge the glide, shield the attack. If you happen to get in the "eye" of the storm of shuttle loop (where you don't get hit), dair.

Is there a possible way to make it so when bowser grab releases me, that I can SDI or something to get more farther away? Or should I just attempt to air release (overall decent option).

 

[phi1ny3]

Double post: I also noticed that dtilt can cancel bowser's upB, even the first few frames of it 0.o. Like I said, is there a way to avoid getting bowser grab released -> dtilt for the kill? Or should I just attempt to air release?

 

[Ilucamy]

Hmmmm for some of those things that are inescapable (like grab release -> d-tilt from bowser) maybe you could incorporate SDI survival techs that I just thought of when watching this video of moves that looked like they were spiking due to SDI.

Someone who's good at smash physics, tell me if this would work. Since Bowser's D-tilt is two hits, you could just SDI down in order to hit the ground and not be sent anywhere. I'm aware that if you're on the ground, you can't SDI down even if you SDI up first, however, given that it's two hits can you SDI the 1st hit UP and SDI the 2nd hit DOWN in order to slam into the ground and receive no knockback?..... I should go test this.....

 

[tedward2000]

So hmmm.... Something new needs to happen.
So here's an idea.

So, for a topic side note.

Button Jumping or Stick tap Jumping.
- What is the benefits of either or.
- Are there moves impossible to accomplish without using Stick Tap jumping.

go.
-t2

 

[|RK|]

I can put some...

Tap Jump
+Attacking out of a jump is easier
+Staying in the air isn't out of the way while attacking
+Some techs are easier/possible (not really Lucario, but ZSSs Up-B boost jump)
-U-Tilt is only possible after a jump/hop or U-smash
-Shorthopping is harder to do
-Possible accidental wall jump away from stage (Not much of a problem with Lucario, since he doesn't wall jump)
-Possible accidental double jump when using U-air

Button Jump
+Easier to shorthop
+Easier tilts
+No accidental double jump when using U-air (it's hard for me not to)
-A bit more out of the way (GC Controller)

I still prefer Tap Jump though, while my brother prefers button jumping. He doesn't use AT and such unless I teach him.

 

[phi1ny3]

One thing I don't ever have a real problem with that most people complain about tap jump is utilt vs. hop uair. I have never accidentally done a jump uair when I wanted to utilt, people who use tap jump more (like marth) learn to avoid this issue by being more coordinated with the stick.

 

[Ilucamy]

I don't really see any pros to having tap jump on. I really don't see too many cons either, just more learning if you're used to button jump and vice versa.

Personally, I find it easier having jump next to attack, that way I can kinda roll my thumb and hit both at once with very little delay inbetween.

 

[phi1ny3]

I don't really see any pros to having tap jump on. I really don't see too many cons either, just more learning if you're used to button jump and vice versa.

Personally, I find it easier having jump next to attack, that way I can kinda roll my thumb and hit both at once with very little delay inbetween.

Depends which character. Marths, Bowsers, and Zamus like tap jump on. Lucario doesn't need tap jump much.

 

[ckm]

I can put some...

Tap Jump
+Attacking out of a jump is easier
+Staying in the air isn't out of the way while attacking
+Some techs are easier/possible (not really Lucario, but ZSSs Up-B boost jump)
-U-Tilt is only possible after a jump/hop or U-smash
-Shorthopping is harder to do
-Possible accidental wall jump away from stage (Not much of a problem with Lucario, since he doesn't wall jump)
-Possible accidental double jump when using U-air

Button Jump
+Easier to shorthop
+Easier tilts
+No accidental double jump when using U-air (it's hard for me not to)
-A bit more out of the way (GC Controller)

I still prefer Tap Jump though, while my brother prefers button jumping. He doesn't use AT and such unless I teach him.

er. you can utilt with tap jump without jumping or usmashing first. just TILT the control stick up. It is analog, it will utilt as long as you don't tap it up. Suprised no one else caught that.

 

[|RK|]

Tch, not for me. Besides, it's much harder to do that in an actual combat situation.

 

[Alus]

^^^

hold up in the middle of another move... then continue holding up

then you can move left or right by pressing the top diagonal left or right and let it go when your done with u-tilt.

just don't move to fast.

(note...this is terrible on wifi)

 

[|RK|]

Ah. Well. I suppose it was because I did uptilt alone, so to correct that, you cant U-tilt without doing another move first.

 

[phi1ny3]

Okay, so I heard there is a DI/SDI combination that if you're being chain grabbed makes it so that unless they are perfect in their timing you can more effectively escape (applies to D3 CG). If I recall, it's SDI quarter roll from down to away, but I don't know, can anyone confirm this?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Okay, so I heard there is a DI/SDI combination that if you're being chain grabbed makes it so that unless they are perfect in their timing you can more effectively escape (applies to D3 CG). If I recall, it's SDI quarter roll from down to away, but I don't know, can anyone confirm this?

I know there's the whole extra inch DI, where you hold your analog+c-stick diagonally up and away, with the c-stick in a slightly different position. Something like that... maybe you smash the c-stick, I don't remember. I know it works for Ness against the grab release chains.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy_1ttIB7A0

Or wait... does that only work for grab releases?

 

[Milln]

I didn't read anything. Have you guys talked about Meta Knight ledgecamping, yet?

 

[|RK|]

OK, you can do it without another attack, but your finger movement in a battle is too fast for this to actually help.

 

[Ilucamy]

Tap jump is just something to get used to. Use it or not use it the only big difference is being able to Up-B out of shield (lololol ES OoS ftw)

So it's really only good for people with good up specials (marth, bowser) and ZSS because she gets a zap jump effect from her Up-B.

Really, you could replicate that by just jumping and then using Up-B really fast, either way, Lucario has no use for tap jump.

 

[phi1ny3]

I know there's the whole extra inch DI, where you hold your analog+c-stick diagonally up and away, with the c-stick in a slightly different position. Something like that... maybe you smash the c-stick, I don't remember. I know it works for Ness against the grab release chains.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy_1ttIB7A0

Or wait... does that only work for grab releases?

Works enough for me. Also, Ness fair, how to deal with it while in the air? (no AD, no fair, large range, sometimes lots of hurt).

 

[Melomaniacal]

Works enough for me. Also, Ness fair, how to deal with it while in the air? (no AD, no fair, large range, sometimes lots of hurt).

I've only played one Ness, but I think I remember retreating bairs (maybe fairs) working. Or shield it

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I think we should stay for a while on this broken moves topic. It's a valuable topic and there is a lot to be said.

On Dealing With the Tilts of the Snake (and grenade camping):

Stay out of range! Snake is not a mobile character. His horizontal aerial movespeed is teh suxxzors and his DACUS, while fast, can be incredibly punishable. I said this in another thread, but I think it might have more relevance here:

As far as my matchup experience goes, AS vs. nades can be easier than tilts vs. w/e Lucario tries to do. I think the best thing to do is learn to dodge grenades. They go off in 4 seconds and he only can have 2 of them out at once. Generally speaking, you can learn to avoid them almost entirely with enough practice. BAS seems to really be hell on snake. And normal AS as well. AS is faster to prepare than Snake's projectiles, and if you time it right, you can catch him when he's plucking a grenade. I do a lot of jumping around and charging/firing AS in this matchup.

Snake often tries to approach while you're under the pressure of the grenades. Just be ready for it, and shoot out a BAS if you expect a DACUS. I find the best way to win against a snake in closer combat is just dangle out of the ftilt range and shoot BAS at him. It should get really frustrating for the Snake. I like to punish with Fair combos or grabs if I can, and use Fsmash for finishing/spacing. So... yeah. I think Wallcario is the best way to take a Snake.

Trying to help out.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, and juggle snake, if he ADs, you need to learn to juggle right and bait it for another attack. He has like the worst options for covering below him (like worst than marth kind of options).
Oh yeah, and grenades last more in the 2-3 second range (I think the exact amount is 2.8 seconds, but anyone know?). Just saying.

New thing: MK ftilt, when it occurs (I think it is used to help stop approaches and help with spacing, but I think there might be more to it), what moves of ours destroy it in terms of range, how to avoid getting racked up by it (because he can do some good things out of ftilt).

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Oh yeah, and grenades last more in the 2-3 second range (I think the exact amount is 2.8 seconds, but anyone know?). Just saying.

...

First, I think everyone needs to know that grenades will explode upon the count of 4. As in 1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi, 3-Mississippi, 4. Knowing this will help you create grenade tactics on the fly and prevent yourself from turning into pot roast.

The Snake mains disagrees with you. I'm pretty sure it's 4 seconds.

 

[tedward2000]

Why must the picture keep popping up around this thread?
Thats 3 times that picture has made its face in here.
If your going to tell someone they are wrong with a pic, be original and find a new one.
thanks
-t2

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Sorry but I recently watched that movie. I can pick WHATEVER THE PIC I WANT!

 

[phi1ny3]

Sorry but I recently watched that movie. I can pick WHATEVER THE PIC I WANT!

Yeah, I've used that picture too. It's really good, but try to find a gif variation for more hilarity.
btw, if that info is true, that means 3.5 seconds, because the end of saying "Mississippi" represents the passing of that second in this instance (which would actually not be accurate, as I explain in a moment).

Also, anyone who counts that way doesn't know how to do seconds. Why?
Because where did the transition to one go? I know that was a part of the snake cooking guide, so they know what they're talking about in terms of time, but the more accurate way to count would be:
"Mississippi-one, Mississippi-two, Mississippi-three, Mississippi" is where it would probably end.
Not to be a pain per se, just making sure we get the accurate info down.
Also, when you mentioned that in my previous thread, that's a good reason to get defensive when grenades are the issue, but what if he's boxing you in with mine and c4 combinations? When he spaces you with these things, you can guarantee that it will get a little tricky when he screens with these. If you don't believe this is an integral part of the snake strategy, look it up in the snake guide.
Not trying to be obstinate, just trying to get the full spectrum of strategy.

 

[supergamer001]

It's a tad over 3.5 seconds. The Wichita crew had a whole shpeel on snakes grenades a couple months ago.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's a tad over 3.5 seconds. The Wichita crew had a whole shpeel on snakes grenades a couple months ago.

Thanks for the confirmation, btw, two moves I've had questions on:
-ROB's dsmash (I know it almost always comes out immediately after spotdodge, but is there a way to space it/cancel it)?
-MK ftilt (it's an amazing setup tool, can potentially outspace our fsmash if they PS walk to ftilt), and is a good counter to overall approaches). How in the air do you get around it without using a second jump? do you bait it? and on the ground, what are good responses?

 

[A New England Winter]

USmash (body hitbox) clanks with Marth's tippered FSmash. Just saying...

Also, Xaoz Combo.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm going to refer to my previous post on moves that are gay that I think would be good to know how to deal with.

 

[tedward2000]

*cough*
*moves the dust*

Why do you continue to revive this thread phil? Hmm... Perhaps if I updated it sometime, then it would get new light.

Ugg... It just needs some juice.

 

[phi1ny3]

Because I've had experience with threads that have been on the brink of death, with posters as lazy as lucario's, you need to give it a bump every once in awhile.

 

[Aurasmash14]

this is a really helpful thread... phil is right just dont let it die!

 

[The_Bear735]

We need to discuss Dsmaaaaaaaaaash if we're going to discuss DT and FP.

 

[Milln]

Thanks for the confirmation, btw, two moves I've had questions on:
-ROB's dsmash (I know it almost always comes out immediately after spotdodge, but is there a way to space it/cancel it)?
-MK ftilt (it's an amazing setup tool, can potentially outspace our fsmash if they PS walk to ftilt), and is a good counter to overall approaches). How in the air do you get around it without using a second jump? do you bait it? and on the ground, what are good responses?

I think you can smash DI out of Rob's dsmash just like Pika's, though it's more difficult. And it's worth to note that the hitbox is only at his hands, so if you short hop a dair when you expect one, you're good.

MK Ftilt can go to heck. If he's ftilting, it means he wants the control of the match. Don't get ftilted. =O

HAVE WE TALKED ABOUT LEDGESTALLING YET? COME ON.

 

[tedward2000]

K mates, Ima update this thread, and then see where we go.

Perhaps like Dsmash or Ledgestalling we can talk about. Something.
Um...Go?
-t2

 

[Melomaniacal]

Ledgecamping? Spam fsmash. Srsly.
Works every time.