The Myth of the Elitist Competitives

[Endless Nightmares]

@56k: You changed your entire post!

Yeah I got ninja posted by Mookie and Wiseguy so my post no longer made sense

 

[Yuna]

In the end, yeah, those people were condemning him for his past actions. But I was talking about before he changed, and people not giving him a chance then. Had MookieRah totally given up on him from the beginning, maybe they might not have eventually seen eye to eye.

It's still not judging a book by its cover. To judge a book by its cover is to judge someone based on what they look like. What the others did was to judge Dylan Tnga on first impressions.

 

[SAMaine]

Well, I can't say this topic didn't go like I expected...

 

[flyinfilipino]

It's still not judging a book by its cover. To judge a book by its cover is to judge someone based on what they look like. What the others did was to judge Dylan Tnga on first impressions.

OK fine, maybe I used the wrong proverb. Is there a more fitting one out there?

How about "first impressions go a long way"? And to bring this full circle, Yuna, I'm sure a lot of people that are antagonizing you just think you're always an arrogant *insert expletive* based on one or two of your very long, caustic posts. Even I thought that way, but with the proper amount of reading, I saw better and have refrained from calling you 'elitist'. *no offense or anything*

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Well dangz, you got me thar.

Actually though, if I took that kind of advice I wouldn't have changed some of the people I have, nor would I have changed my views into what they are now. A lot of debates I have with people may start off heated, but over the duration of the back and forth communication we eventually start to see how human we both are, and we relate more to each other, and this sort of mutual respect for each other comes about.

Case in point being the infamous Dyln_Tnga. You guys remembered how he was back in the day. I kept debating with him, and I didn't let up. We hated each other at first. We would go back and forth. Eventually it became the norm, but we kept debating. Over a period of a month or so, I noticed that he started to realize some of the things I was trying to tell him. After one last big fight, we actually came to terms, and he realized that he was in the wrong for a lot of things. He honestly had changed quite significantly. The sad thing is that even though his views had changed, nobody else cared to take notice. He had already been labeled as being an idiot, and so eventually he got tired of trying to convince people that his views had changed.

He wasn't the only one either, but he was the one that opened up the most to this sort of thing. I've had a lot of debates with people that ended up in everyone learning a little bit more about the other and where they came from and why they held the views they did.

That's a nice little story Mookie. I think the big thing here is that there is a great deal of misunderstanding all around in this thread. The casual/competitive war got started when someone fed the trolls or an ignorant powderkeg exploded. Certain members may be in the right, but explain their points in a way that rankles other posters. Those posters get involved on either side, as opinionated mofos sling flames at each other over the front lines. Both sides believe they are in the right, but some members seem not to realize both sides of the story. Sooner or later, someone's feelings get hurt and they fly into the fray with frenzied fanaticism. Other people try to point out fallacies, but the flames are flying so fast it becomes hard to tell who's rational and who's attacking so more people flip out. Then others try to stop the bleeding in vain because everyone's too riled up to stop now.

It's hard to convince belligerent people to stop being belligerent, especially on the internet. While it's fun to flame idiots and n00bs, if one is in a position of integrity and higher status it hurts the public's view of them. A person in high esteem should at least appear to be more rational and calmer than the normal folk, which is what Wiseguy seems to be pointing out. I hate to be preachy (because I've flamed and snarked my fair share of people in my short time here), but "do unto others" becomes doubly important when you're a mod or a BRoomer or whatever. That's partially the reason that this thread has exploded into flames; a respectable BRoomer posts one out of many inflammatory threads/topics and then handles himself with less than ideal composure. Trolls like big targets like that, and it's natural to rail against authorities that act otherwise.

Not only that, but

It's still not judging a book by its cover. To judge a book by its cover is to judge someone based on what they look like. What the others did was to judge Dylan Tnga on first impressions.

Well to be honest Yunie, what we read was what we saw. We are on the internet, so your words become your persona. Tnga started off as the prototypical you-know-what, so that's what a lot of people saw him as. He may have changed, but it was apparently too little too late. Take heed of this man, it's an important internets lesson.

 

[Holygrail]

In the end, yeah, those people were condemning him for his past actions. But I was talking about before he changed, and people not giving him a chance then. Had MookieRah totally given up on him from the beginning, maybe they might not have eventually seen eye to eye.

V@56k: Very sneeky! But I saw what you did there.

You are correct, flyin'! It seems that no one has a good sense of time here. Therefore no one has the guts to measure history!

Even thougth he did change, he still experienced people jugding him by what was a new cover. However, having remembered him the same way before, people could not see how; other than why he changed. They needed more time to see that.

Time does apply to judging by the book's cover. Not everything happens briefle or immediately.

 

[Yuna]

OK fine, maybe I used the wrong proverb. Is there a more fitting one out there?

How about "first impressions go a long way"? And to bring this full circle, Yuna, I'm sure a lot of people that are antagonizing you just think you're always an arrogant *insert expletive* based on one or two of your very long, caustic posts. Even I thought that way, but with the proper amount of reading, I saw better and have refrained from calling you 'elitist'. *no offense or anything*

That one works.

Even I don't base my impressions of people on first impressions. Even I might come down harsh on someone the first time I reply to them, if they can be reasoned with, then I'll lighten up.

 

[Wiseguy]

Idealistic, but no, that honestly will have little to no chance of working on the internet.

Fine. The SWF is a vile place and nothing will ever change that. Let's all just trade petty insults. But don't say "being polite doesn't work" and then go on a pityfest of "boo hoo those stupid Casual players won't stop calling us poor, poor Competitive players names."

The Elitist may be a myth spread by ten year olds, but if you want to know WHY it persists you need only look at the arrogance of the competitive players who flame their stupidity.

It's stupid to label someone as an elitist just for being harsh on someone else, especially not when that someone else threw the first stone, said a bunch of stupid things and the 2nd person wrote an eloquent and logical post on why the original person was wrong.

I repeat: welcome to the internet, where the only person's behavior you can control is your own.

If you don't like the label, make you're behaviour above reproach.

 

[flyinfilipino]

That one works.

Even I don't base my impressions of people on first impressions. Even I might come down harsh on someone the first time I reply to them, if they can be reasoned with, then I'll lighten up.

Very good.

BTW, are you a boy or a girl?

 

[Yuna]

Very good.

BTW, are you a boy or a girl?

"By the way, I am a man." - Haku

I repeat: welcome to the internet, where the only person's behavior you can control is your own.

If you don't like the label, make you're behaviour above reproach.

To paraphrase MookieRah:
It's bovine manure to have to act humble, politically correct and just downright kiss-assy to people who are stupid who do and say stupid things just so that other stupid people won't falsely label you as something you aren't because they have reading comprehension problems.

 

[-Wolfy-]

I agree with the statement that among every group, there is a very high chance that even a few of them will be complete douche bags. Just because there are bound to be a couple of bad representatives of the spirit of the larger group, does not mean the group they are a part of is bad.

I think a lot of the "flaming" that the opponents of the "elitists" reference comes from response to poor forum etiquette, like not searching for an existing topic, consecutive posting, short posts, and so forth. In this scenario, there is no elitist and no scrub, there is just tough love to fellow forum goers.

I believe it was Simna who once said "Love the arrogant noob as you would your own child, for their arrogance is your pride." I think that at the core of this statement, is the sentiment that a lot of new comers talk them selves up, they may try to insert themselves into the company of some of the better smashers, but without actually proving themselves as intelligent posters or even gifted practitioners. Naturally, some of the better players would feel their accomplishments as competitors and posters would be undermined by some Joe Bloggs that would consider themselves as accomplished as the "pro" in question. Needless to say, this would create some tension, which is visibly the fuel to the casual players argument that the competitive scene is elitist.

But how can anyone label the whole group of competitive players elitist when so many are willing to come to the aid of the "casuals" when the debates reach full steam? Just because there are some genuine A-holes mixed into the community, doesn't mean that we are incapable of reasoning and hearing you out.
As with every community, there will be distinct groups that arise within the community as a whole, and that has to be understood because this is not just a community for discussion, it also serves as the means people are able to organize tournaments, and therefore, the competitors are going to use the site, and will be their own group within the site.

A little understanding from the "casuals" would help extend the oliver branch to the "competitives" who are too caught up in the fight itself to actually grapple with the issue at hand.

These are just my thoughts on the ridiculously out of hand debate we have here.

 

[Miharu]

Fine. The SWF is a vile place and nothing will ever change that. Let's all just trade petty insults. But don't say "being polite doesn't work" and then go on a pityfest of "boo hoo those stupid Casual players won't stop calling us poor, poor Competitive players names."

The Elitist may be a myth spread by ten year olds, but if you want to know WHY it persists you need only look at the arrogance of the competitive players who flame their stupidity.

Why do you think I gave up at trying to change this?

Honestly, being polite on an online forum means very little unless you're in a position of authority, and even then, it achieves very little with those that you try to use it to reason with.

 

[flyinfilipino]

"By the way, I am a man." - Haku

K, guess I should have read more.

 

[MookieRah]

LOL @ how often Yuna gets asked that. He needs that in his sig or something XD.

 

[-Wolfy-]

LOL at in the time it took me to write my post, there were 3 more pages. This thread is heated.

And Kage, I'd say that is only half true. You may not convince all of your opponents by posting politely, but you do distinguish yourself from the flamers and the trolls, and that goes along way in getting people to support your cause, that you would actually want to support your cause. I'm not saying sugarcoat anything, but posting intelligently and respectfully where respect is due goes a long way.

 

[GhostAnime]

ive respected casual players ever since i came on the internet.

it didnt work with any of the ones that flamed me. trust me. it's pointless.

 

[OrlanduEX]

LOL @ how often Yuna gets asked that. He needs that in his sig or something XD.

I think that people start to wonder about the gender of anyone who has a female avatar, but isn't overtly feminine.
For example, I still don't know if Ryoko is a guy or girl.....

 

[-Wolfy-]

Well, if there are users who try to reach out to solve the problem with respect and diplomacy, and the other side rejects that, wouldn't you say that there would be reason to consider the more conflict-mongering of the two sides the ones at fault?

What I think would be interesting is if the Competitive "Elitists" and the Casual "Noobs" each picked a handful of representatives and had a legitimate debate about this in a sanctioned SWF debate. Organized, flame free, and public for all to view, but only possible to be posted in by the representatives of each group.

 

[Wiseguy]

To paraphrase MookieRah:
It's bovine manure to have to act humble, politically correct and just downright kiss-assy to people who are stupid who do and say stupid things just so that other stupid people won't falsely label you as something you aren't because they have reading comprehension problems.

Excellent straw man argument. Interesting how a moderator on Smashboards is advocating flaming stupid people - a blatant contradiction of the official SWF rules. I hope the next time I get an infraction for calling somone an idiot, Mookie will be there to explain to the other mods why that rule doesn't apply.

Is it too much to expect more maturity from a SWF veteran with intelligence than a 10 year old on his first post? Apparently. I guess you guys have it all figured out, so you don't need me here.

*Leaves*

 

[ptown]

ryoko is a japanese girl's name.

and relating to the topic...

noobs want something or someone to blame when they can't win. it just makes it easier when they have "facts" that back up why they aren't winning.

e.g. elitists cheat with glitches and bugs.

edit: oh... and they're going to hold on tight to these kind of beliefs (even when you're trying to help them!) if it explains why they can't win.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Well, if there are users who try to reach out to solve the problem with respect and diplomacy, and the other side rejects that, wouldn't you say that there would be reason to consider the more conflict-mongering of the two sides the ones at fault?

What I think would be interesting is if the Competitive "Elitists" and the Casual "Noobs" each picked a handful of representatives and had a legitimate debate about this in a sanctioned SWF debate. Organized, flame free, and public for all to view, but only possible to be posted in by the representatives of each group.

I don't want this to go unnoticed because it was last post of the page.
Does anyone else think something like this would be valuable in this conflict?

 

[OrlanduEX]

Excellent straw man argument. Interesting how a moderator on Smashboards is advocating flaming stupid people - a blatant contradiction of the official SWF rules. I hope the next time I get an infraction for calling somone an idiot, Mookie will be there to explain to the other mods why that rule doesn't apply.

Is it too much to expect more maturity from a SWF veteran with intelligence than a 10 year old on his first post? Apparently. I guess you guys have it all figured out, so you don't need me here.

*Leaves*

There is nothing immature about replying to idiocy with anger. This what Mookie is trying to say. Civility has no place in the face of stubborn idiocy. I think you know well that being nice and respectful to disrespectful idiots won't solve anything.

 

[-Linko-]

You're first translation was really wrong(it was: the one that can insult does, not the one who wants) and in that link you gave bugball was the one actually saying "Smash without items is still fun", while others said "no random factor=crap=SF+platforms" or "smash is slow and boring without items", "smash without items and the random factor is not smash".
So that example wasn't really helpful, as he also was defending brawl and saying that even if some adv.techs weren't in the game it was still fun and asked people not to complain about the tournament rules.
Yet I'm not sure if bugball is an elitist/troll/jerk/whatever as it's not the first time I heard that he is...

No, my translation wasn't wrong: it was just dis-euphemised. He meant what I translated.
(The one that can insult does=I can insult; not the one who wants=you can't insult) If that isn't elitism...

The real proof that Bugball was an elitist/troll/jerk/idiot is that he opened that thread to complain that we were organizing an item tourney. He was trying to make us play like we didn't want, like if there actually was a "correct way of playing smash".

The fact that people trolled at him doesn't make him less troll. A few pages ago, Mookie said that it was legit to flame trolls. I disagree with him, look at my posts there, I didn't trol or flamel. But that doesn't change the fact that Bugball is a troll.

And you can be a competitive elitist and actually like Brawl... Not all tourneyidiots say "Brawl Sux bcuz u can't wavedash or L-Cancel".

 

[OrlanduEX]

ryoko is a japanese girl's name.

and relating to the topic...

noobs want something or someone to blame when they can't win. it just makes it easier when they have "facts" that back up why they aren't winning.

e.g. elitists cheat with glitches and bugs.

edit: oh... and they're going to hold on tight to these kind of beliefs (even when you're trying to help them!) if it explains why they can't win.

I understand that Ryoko is a girl's name, but Ryoko Yaksa, the moderator, may not be a girl.....

And I agree fully with the rest of your post.

 

[Yuna]

LOL @ how often Yuna gets asked that. He needs that in his sig or something XD.

I've thought about that, actually. Just yesterday, I was mistaken for a girl at my friend's university... despite an utter lack of boobs.

Excellent straw man argument. Interesting how a moderator on Smashboards is advocating flaming stupid people - a blatant contradiction of the official SWF rules. I hope the next time I get an infraction for calling somone an idiot, Mookie will be there to explain to the other mods why that rule doesn't apply.

Is it too much to expect more maturity from a SWF veteran with intelligence than a 10 year old on his first post? Apparently. I guess you guys have it all figured out, so you don't need me here.

*Leaves*

Heated arguments =/= Flaming.

I very seldom outright flame people. But I see no reason to sound perfectly civil, polite, bordering on kissing ***, to everyone, even those who are attacking me personally.

No, my translation wasn't wrong: it was just dis-euphemised. He meant what I translated.
(The one that can insult does=I can insult; not the one who wants=you can't insult) If that isn't elitism...

The real proof that Bugball was an elitist/troll/jerk/idiot is that he opened that thread to complain that we were organizing an item tourney. He was trying to make us play like we didn't want, like if there actually was a "correct way of playing smash".

Did he insult them for using items? Or did he rationally try to convince them not to use items because he wanted a tournament with Competitive rules so that he might not randomly lose to a random item spawn?

It's not elitism just for wishing things to be your way and trying to convince others to join you. It's elitism when you think your way is the only possible way or that yours is clearly superior in every possible way.

 

[plasmatorture]

I would respond and continue the discussion, but Wiseguy said everything I can think of.

If you want to end this flame war, it's on the shoulders of the people who know better to fix it. It's obviously not the trolls who are going to change.
I thought it could be you guys, but it's obvious that you all act too angsty and 14 (I'm giving you a little more credit than Wiseguy) to change anything.


Enjoy your flamewar.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Well, I figured I'd throw my diplomatic debate idea out there.

What an uphill battle this is!

 

[flyinfilipino]

I've thought about that, actually. Just yesterday, I was mistaken for a girl at my friend's university... despite an utter lack of boobs.

For some reason, I don't think changing your sig here would fix that .

 

[GhostAnime]

plasma, i'm sorry, but it cant end if one side willingly refuses to be tolerant.

we cant do anything to change anybody's mind.

 

[plasmatorture]

plasma, i'm sorry, but it cant end if one side willingly refuses to be tolerant.

we cant do anything to change anybody's mind.

You're absolutley right. The one side is a bunch of trolls, nothing more, nothing less. And yet in general you all still insist on flaming them as a mean of changing their minds. But you're right - flaming someone will NEVER change their opinion on it.

WGWolverine, I think you've got the right idea. It's a shame one side is almost all trolls who wouldn't participate in such a discussion, and the other is too hard headed to admit that their way to "correct" people just pisses them off more.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Someone needs to tell the trolls that they can post stupidly and belligerently at 4chan if that is really their main squeeze.

If they want to open up diplomatic relations and discuss the matter like people, then we can try and get both sides to be civil about it, but as of now, both sides fail*


*Of course there are voices of reason for both sides who are not included with the above statement.

 

[Miharu]

LOL at in the time it took me to write my post, there were 3 more pages. This thread is heated.

And Kage, I'd say that is only half true. You may not convince all of your opponents by posting politely, but you do distinguish yourself from the flamers and the trolls, and that goes along way in getting people to support your cause, that you would actually want to support your cause. I'm not saying sugarcoat anything, but posting intelligently and respectfully where respect is due goes a long way.

Respect should be only be given where it's due.

Sadly, online forums have never been a place to convince others of your ideas. It's more along the lines of beating the ideas into them until they either shut up, or decide to start flaming.

I realize that it would be ideal for what you're suggesting to happen, but it's been tried countless times now, with little to no success as a result.

I would respond and continue the discussion, but Wiseguy said everything I can think of.

If you want to end this flame war, it's on the shoulders of the people who know better to fix it. It's obviously not the trolls who are going to change.
I thought it could be you guys, but it's obvious that you all act too angsty and 14 (I'm giving you a little more credit than Wiseguy) to change anything.

Enjoy your flamewar.

These types of posts are simply irritating. They come off as ****ing arrogant, and contribute almost nothing except for an unnecessary half-***** attempt at being witty.

Congratulations on fueling the fire. You're doing a great job of it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149537

Do you still think that there are as many elitists as scrubs? Just read the posts to see peoples opinions and false statements about competative play.

 

[E-Z-MONEY]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149537

Do you still think that there are as many elitists as casuals? Just read the posts to see peoples opinions and false statements about competative play.

First, I don't think anyone thinks there are as many elitists as casuals. I think you mean elitists as scrubs. Next, It wasn't that bad. There were exactly three stupid things said that weren't taken back. Last, the number of scrubs in a thread has nothing to do with the number of elitists in the world.

 

[MookieRah]

@Wiseguy

Heated arguments =/= Flaming.

I very seldom outright flame people. But I see no reason to sound perfectly civil, polite, bordering on kissing ***, to everyone, even those who are attacking me personally.

That's pretty much my response to you saying that I advocate flaming. I don't advocate a 5150 style flaming session on people whom are disrespectful; however, I don't find the need to give them respect when they disrespect myself, most of the people on this site, and everything this forum stands for. I will call someone an idiot when they are doing so, but I will tell them why and still debate. These are some of the ideals I stand for personally, and if that interferes with my semi-mod status to the point other mods deem it necessary then my mod status will be removed.

As it stands, I have never outright flamed anyone on these boards ever since I've started posting on this site. I've been one of the most lenient mods when it comes to handling infractions, as I prefer to discuss things with people and give them a chance to change and redeem themselves before handing infractions. I don't assume people are trolls just cause they come off as idiotic, I instead wait until it's obvious. I even check their post records to see if they are stirring up trouble or are misguided.

@Ptown
That is the reaction of text book scrubs; however, you need to make the distinction in your posts, because as it stands it *seems* like you are referring to every casual player. We have all pretty much agreed that everyone hates people when they exhibit these idiotic behaviors, so there isn't much need to display your hatred of scrubs in this thread.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sorry about the slip. I meant to say scrubs.

Also, I was just making a point that the number of elitists is being blown way out of proportion. The general opinion of the competative scene as a whole is suffering because of a few idiots. To say that there are as many elitists as there are scrubs is completely over the top. I used that thread as an example because you'd find 3 scrubs within two pages. That's actually pretty common around here, but the elitists seem to be spread far more thin. Why is that. It's because either
a)individual elitists don't post as much as individual scrubs

or

b)there are less elitists than scrubs

Either way, it's obvious which of the two complains more on these boards.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The solution to this problem is Draconian Moderation.

The mods should give points to anyone who presents an illogical argument concerning how other people choose to play the game. If you tell anyone that their style of play is wrong or criticize them for playing the way they do, you should get some f***ing points. That's how I see it.
The problem would be solved in a week.

 

[Fuzzyness]

heh it's sorta always been like this, there's some non competitive (apparently) players whining about tourneys, players, chars w/e. They ask to play (and now netplay is a new john, SSBB isnt Halo 2/3 where you can believe you're skillful for beating people online) and whatever reply they get they usually never take into view what the real competitive side to the game is because they have never participated in the community (just like the idiot who posted on youtube with all that trash on gimpyfish, that made my day..laughing of course ^_^)

Also consider that guy also wrote in his vid how he'd beat gimpy at brawl because he's watched all the melee vids and he apparently sucks (LOL how does that make sense, brawl is not melee)

I've also had some random players add me on msn (because i sort out the london scene for smash) who obviously bs about being the best in the world or whatever, the best solution is to avoid these idiots and ignore them (and on forums why not ban them because no one likes to hear it)

oh sheez btw hax 1000 posts ^_^

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

Bad boyfriend! More *****iness! Have I taught you nothing?

 

[Zodiac]

For example, this post is very elitist.

Smashboards isn't filled with scrubs because of brawl. They are newbies.

****, is like whoever isn't competitive, is a scrub. That's pretty **** elitist

There was nothing elitist about that, smashboards has been filled with scrubs since brawl was announced, its a simple truth. Its been filled with noobs to, more so with noobs that never got into melee because they hated competitive smashers and they express it (ScRuBs!!!)

And that's also pretty **** elitist. I defend the casuals yet i'm not a casual (nor a competitive in the right mode, but when I find local tourneys or these things, i go to all them and i practice and all that bla bla bla).

I'm not saying you are elitist. I'm saying that SOUND elitist. Everything that means "i'm better than you, go die" is VERY elitist, and a lot of competitive players and competitive scrubs do that argument often, even if they don't want to. Is natural. (Even for me, it occurs when talking about pokemon, but at least i don't say go die, but I say them how they have to make their teams etc.)

The right thing, that newbieflamers exist in pokemon, and i have suffered from them too. but ****, that's NOT a casual if you are teaching how can you play better. That's a idiot.

(Otherwise, if you see the other can't do pretty well adv. technique, you can play without them for the fairness. But in pokemon there isn't advance techniques, only strategies, that's why i call them idiots)

I hope mi post is clarified enough so i don't have to put a flame shield. Basically: Try to not sound elitist. If a casual plays with you, play the game the casual way, for fairness. Then, try to teach them the competitive mode to play. If them flame, they are scrubs. Before of that, they aren't. If they say they prefer to play the casual mode, they are casual.

PD: it would help me if someone pointed my grammar errors. Thanks ^^

Edit: In my videogames association we do some mini-tourneys. Almost all the people like smash, so there is a lot of people every time. We do competitive and casual tourneys, and both competitive and casual players do quite well in both tourneys (yet, competitive usually gets better places than casuals)

All that from a Analyst of poor ol' merfy? It only sounded elitist to you because you wanted material to attack the other side with. I'm sorry it turned out that way but if you only see post like that the way you want for you own benefits anyone that looks at you logically will unquestionably see what you are doing.