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I've beaten a pika in the most recent tourney I been to. You just can't CP pika and expect to win against Fox you actually have to know how to play pika same goes for shiek and ICs other than that Fox has no other bad match-ups. (If you don't believe ZSS is a good MU for Fox go check the MU for it.)
his weight is probably due to the grenades being able to hurt snake as well. The developers must of figured they should give snake a respectable weight value so that he can take a few hits from his grenades and still see out the match.
DDD does suffer abit from the Kirby syndrome, but i agree he is solid and no he wont move anywhere up for the duration of the games life span.
You agree that it's a mystery on why Lucario is bad? Lucario is bad in singles because of his bad recovery (which leads to him dying at low percentages, so he can't take full advantage of his aura), lack of true approaches and susceptibility to camping. Basically, Lucario can't compete on the "same level" as MK, Snake, Diddy, Wario, etc because all of these characters can beat Lucario without even having to outsmart him. Lucario does not have "options to do things."Oh, also, I mostly agree with what gimpy has said, especially in terms of Marth, Lucario, Peach and Sheik. Its another way to describe characters who have the options to do with things, they are just less attractive in terms of what they are able to dominate with.
But I dont agree on Pit.
*high-five*
Close, but no. Anyone who doesn't use him overrates him; anyone worth their weight with this character underrates him, or slightly overrates them.
Agreed completely. Winning any match up against players who fail to really screw up is insanely difficult. People with experience against Sonic only worsens the problem for the mains.
1: No one plays Sonic because they enjoy his properties. Just about everyone gets frustrated about our lack of KOs and reliable setups. Everyone that plays Sonic, only plays Sonic, because he's SONIC.
Nothing will ever compensate for Sonic's glaring weaknesses. Low attack speed, terrible KO potential, unreliable approaches, and overall uphill match ups will keep him in his place, if not worse.
I like Lucario and I like that he pops up as a partially used character in the top results of major tournaments sometimes but can't get the big $$ by himself = not good. It's all about the money.
)
true words.
I think you are disregarding the fact that no matter what anyone wants to say, bananas are an exchangable item. and theres only so much you can do with them. which is to say diddy players have been practicing with the items since the game came out, but I feel like eventually, players of other characters will learn to use to use them almost, if not as effectively as diddy. and than when that huge advatage is somewhat negated, we will be able to see how many characters truly compete with him, and i think it will be more than what we currently think. specifically, smaller, faster characters like fox, wolf and sonic, will start doing really well against him because they will have the finesse to play the nanner game on par with diddy, and than just make it a contest of player skill and one characters attributes against anothers.not to say that diddy cant compete with out them, but i think that development in the metagame of players will take him down from top tier character, to just "really good character"
I agree with most of this, his ability to force you into options that are benficial for him will always be top of the bunch but i think that when some characters learn to play as patient as he does, he might find himself in some trouble. because it looks like a characters physical size has a direct correlation to their matchup with falco. and the smaller your character is, the harder it is for the falco to limit your options with lasers, and when people play this slow and safe approach game, it tends to turn the tables and limit the falcos options, and with people getting better every day at punishing falcos excape methods this character might be in for a very small drop as well. taking full advantage of the ledge is also looking to be a sizable hamper to his game.
I think Ice climber players still have a ways to go, because even though poeple will be more adamant about camping them, ICs will be more effective when they actually get the grab, which i feel is important to note. through their high priority B moves, and aerials, ICs have the tools to fight most characters on even ground, and than adding the CG makes them excruciatingly good. add in the fact that at times it doesnt even take a mistake for them to grab you. who here hasnt thought they had successfully baited the ICs into an action and gone for the punish, only for popo to get a lucky powershield and than nana to get a grab in the hitlag? or to perfectly space your move and just get pivot grabbed anyway. They seem like they are going to eveentually turn into a "pick your poison character." where you can take the entire game and run from the grab only to get blizzard'd/squalled/up aired, or you can fight them normally and run the chance of getting grabbed from anything that is misspaced or mistimed.
Wario feels to me like a character that isnt inherently super great and that almost any character that plays the matchup right would be able to beat him, but he will never go down much due to the play of his character fundamentally taking advantage of players. Its been 2 years now. You KNOW that wario is going to land behind your shield, yet more often than you should, you are going to go for the shield grab anyway, because "theres no way he got behind my shield THIS time." and as long as people continue to have unpredictable setups for farts, wario will continue to have a leg up on most characters.
Everyone knows oli is a beast onstage, best in the game? im not sure I agree. but regardless, I feel that oli wont be able to take that big step up, because its just too easy to get a character offstage, and while oli players have done a real good job of making the best of what he has, i dont think itll be enough for th at kind of improvement. stuff like wolfs down throw, and mks down smash, can rip a game out of an olis hands too easy, seemingly. like link and ike, it requires you to have a vast knowledge of all characters, spacing and timing to make sure your DI is on point. Every time.
I think the two main problems with lucario are his straight forward nature and his recovery. Lucario seems to have moves and options that are good enough and at the exact same time, not good enough. he can compete move for move with just about any character and he has a good skill set, but eventually the fact that no matter what you usually know what hes going to do gets to him. especially at higher percents he doesnt seem to have anything reliable to rack damage or kill other than jab grabs, and f smash which is getting less effective everyday.
I think the COMPLETE opposite. he is fast, but he doesnt seem to have enough range. he actually has very little power, and his recovery, while good, can be taken advantage of. I dont see many pits these days, but the ones I do see arent fancy or flashy at all, I had thought they had finally got that message.
He might get slightly better due to his ability to be really really safe, a lot of the time, but he will always be outclassed by characters that can break his camp, or outcamp him. He has a fair amount of options tho, so people like jash will always have the tools to compete.
Once again, I disagree completely. I cant see anything happening with kirby that chu dat and y.b.m. havent already done. the character is fun, but at his core, hes massively basic. beginner kirby play is as follows.
I feel like DKs main problem is that due to his build as a character, at high levels of play he is forced to take huge risks, and rely on the fact that hes effectively the heaviest character in the game to not die for it, so that he can take said risks again. this is not the kind of strategy this is going to take a character to the higher ranks.
Theres also a number of characters i am eager to see what they are capable of when they take this to heart.
It seems like the threshold for fox to win a lot of the time is just too high. its one thing to have to fight the ice climbers, and think to your self, I cant get grabbed or I die. its another thing entirely to have to have that mindset against like a 4th of the characters in the game. eventually your going to slip, and i feel the margin for error for fox is jsut too small.
Wolf is basic enough that anybody that has a firm grasp on the character and understands well the intracies of how to play brawl can play him effectively. the period of time where atomsk play(ed) wolf, is a good testament to this. Somebody somewhere will always be doing well with wolf, he is a quality character but doesnt have anythign overarching to make him a consistent sight in the tourney scene.
Ive learned from that guy <3 that shiek is capable of a lot, but similarly to fox i think the threshold will be too high for her to have an impact on the tourney scene either.
I agree with a lot of this, But I think charizard will always be solid enough to hold stock long enough to keep squirtle fresh. And ivysaur is just god-awful. she has some redeeming qualities in bulletseed and the strongest verticle kill move, if you can ever get it to hit, but all in all, her best spacing move in bair isnt that great and only does 4% fresh. shes horrendously slow, and her recovery is terribad. outside of bullet seed, she really doesnt have anything solid at close range, and she doesnt have anything to rely on that can keep people from getting inside, racking some damage, getting her offstage and ending her. and I think thats the main thing holding this character back, if PT players didnt have to deal with ivy screwing up the entire flow of the character and getting railed at almost every oppurtunity, PT would easily be a tourney viable character.
Since i main sonic people are probably expecting me to go on this huge rant about how good he is/will be. Those people will be disappointed. Between all of what i would classify as the borderline low tier characters (PT, ike, sonic, ness, bowser, shiek, mario) I think sonic COULD be the best of them, but past that, hes not going anywhere. He has the tools to be able to win any match, and beat anycharacter, but the odds are almost always stacked against him so you wont be seeing him beating the top characters often. tho it will happen from time to time, since between mid and low tier, sonic is probably one of the ones that could rail you the hardest for not knowing specifically how to fight him.
I agree fully with this, but Id like to add that out ofthe characters around him, ness seems to get the most impressive tourney results, which indicates to me that theres some intangible about him that people are overlooking.
It looks like due to tourney results, both normal and low tier, that ike is very clearly NOT low tier, and is just in a completely different league than the majority of the other low tiers, but it does get easier to take advantage of ikes shortcomings, so he wont get much higher than lower mid tier.
I disagree heavily. I think a lot of what yoshi has is different but that doesn explicitly make it any better. recovery? different but not "good". projectile? different but not "good". even his movement abilities arent really "good" even though they are different and can throw people off hard. Most of what he has is average or less, and I dont see him moving up at all.
Ive never entertained this idea, but I think its hilarious, tho I dont really believe anybody has that level of patience. the most patient player I know is probably dehf, and even he gets antsy and rushes kill moves sometimes.
Also seems like its important to note that link is pretty much the only character that has jab locks playing a part in his actual metagame. which give him a solid way to rack damage and land kill moves which is alone better than a few characters above him. he is pretty decent onstage, but hes slow which causes his massive problems because he cant make it hard enough to get inside him and get him offstage
I approve of this notion.
Where did you get the idea that Zelda has the best airdodge in the game? She's tied with a bunch of characters for having the one of the worst airdodges in the game (besides Marth and Peach)! She's vulnerable for 20 frames where she can't act!
You're saying nearly every character in this game is bad, then.
Lucario's recovery's about as bad as marth's, taking all of their offstage options/characteristics into play too. I wouldn't say that's bad :\
Duh.
Thats why lucy prolly wont go any higher than where he is now, some of his options are pretty mediocre at best. I would associate terms like balanced and even when it comes to Lucy. Its the mediocrity at the core of how lucy functions is what keeps him from totally ****** people, and..lol thus not being ***** himself in the process.
I could say the same thing about YbM and ChuDat to Kirby, or NickRiddle to ZSS, or Cable and Will to DK, or Anther to Pikachu... I don't completely depend on tourney performance to imagine how good a character can be in the right hands. I do think that it's very nice to see solo Lucarios doing good (meaning that he's slightly tourney-viable, being able to place even with top tiers running around), but I still feel the same way, that he's more limited than people make him out to be... And even more so when I see tourney results where people place with Lucario (for example), and have some other dominant character (MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco...) so they can win more and boost up their characters more in tourney results. Don't you think that it's a flaw in Ankoku's Tourney Results' thread point-grading system? I could use a character enough, then a vast majority of the tourney as a top tier, and end up boosting the character's ranking because of it... I'm not saying that it's the case with Lucario, but it definitely would be very nice to see how characters would be ranked if only solo mainers' results were the ones used for updating...
I don't disagree with the 'non-biased MUs' you claim the Lucario boards of having. I'm sure they have a nice number of properly-ranked MU ratios. It could also be that they have some underrated MUs as well as overrated MUs. I myself view his disadvantages and advantages without resorting to numbers because it's much easier for me to compare two characters' traits and how they would perform against each other. And as for tier placement, I've always done this "character mesh" sort of thing for every character, ranking different aspects of characters then averaging it out by the number of aspects I mentally graded, making a character better than the other by an 'overall better' factor... And compared to one or two characters below him (as well as matches), I feel like Lucario is overrated in a sense.
