The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Pit's jump was based on a theoretical scenario, where all of the characters were weighted by considering the BBR's ruleset and not other spin-off rules like so many TOs do. In the BBR's rules, there's nothing preventing planking and scrooging, so they voted with that in mind, and knowing Pit's ledge game and how annoying it can be when no limits are imposed on him and when players care nothing but money and are patient enough to spend whole matches on the ledge (theorycraft, i know), Pit would be higher... So, he ended up averaging at #13 as we can see. It's not because everyone in the BBR discussed Pit and all came together and said "yeah, the majority of us say he's #13, so let's put him as #13", it's because everyone voted around that area, and it averaged out to be the 13th spot of the tierlist.

I disagree with his position, and I know he's definitely worse than that. Guess we gotta wait for the next tier list to see what happens, maybe the BBR's rules will have changed by then. In the meanwhile, people should try and prove he shouldn't be that high, and also prove that there needs to be a rule against planking/stalling, as well as help the community as a whole by looking for an agreeable rule towards planking/stalling.

I disagree, Pit should be even higher; he just doesn't have the results to prove otherwise. He has the tools for a potential S or high A-tier IMO.

What makes you think he should be lower?

 

[Code Lyon]

WTF S-Tier?

 

[Kewkky]

I disagree, Pit should be even higher; he just doesn't have the results to prove otherwise. He has the tools for a potential S or high A-tier IMO.

What makes you think he should be lower?

I'm not a Pit mainer, so I don't know how you guys feel he should be. What I've seen by Pits in different tourneys, both through results and videos (especially videos), is that he's just an average character that can be tourney-viable in the right hands, exactly like ZSS, Kirby, TL, and Lucario. He definitely belongs in the tier he's in, I just disagree with his position. All of the characters I've named have some mains that do exceedingly well in tourneys and makes them look tourney-viable, causing bias to sprout within the characters' communities such as "my character should be higher because...".

I don't know if it's his overrated ledge game which hasn't been exploited in USA (or has and has been debunked), or how he can gain a large-enough lead and scrooge entire matches (which I haven't seen happen but know it can be done), or him just having an average moveset... There's something that he has that just doesn't feel like he's high tier material. Maybe his potential is his ability to plank+scrooge, and if it is, I don't think it should be considered when making a tier list (unless it's a 'top gay characters' tier list). A quick example could be how Jiggs in Melee has been winning all national tourneys for a very long time, yet she still hasn't been moved into the upper tiers because they were only considering "what can be done theoretically" and just put off what Mango and hbox were consistently doing... I feel like Pit's being rated for what he MIGHT be able to do, and not what he's currently doing (and shown to do). I truly believe that he's overrated now, and I have no idea why people would consider putting him higher.

Care to shed some light?


EDIT: People keep saying "he has the tools to become S/A tier", but I don't see ANYONE applying these tools as of yet. We've had the game for 2 years now, man! Where are these supposed S/A-tier tools?

 

[Ganonsburg]

EDIT: People keep saying "he has the tools to become S/A tier", but I don't see ANYONE applying these tools as of yet. We've had the game for 2 years now, man! Where are these supposed S/A-tier tools?

The same place as the MK-killing tools and techniques?

 

[yoichX]

what dose tier mean.....?

 

[Kewkky]

The same place as the MK-killing tools and techniques?

Like the grab-releases that we never see used in tourney matches? Or the supposed 50:50/45:55 ratios a couple of non-top characters have (Wario, ICs, Falco, Pikachu...)? Or the anti-planking techniques lots of people say still work? Most probably.

what dose tier mean.....?

Well...

1. One of a series of rows placed one above another: a stadium with four tiers of seats.
2. A rank or class.
tr. & intr.v. tiered, tier·ing, tiers To arrange (something) into or rise in tiers: tier a wedding cake; balconies that tier upward.

So, a tier list is a list of different levels which we arrange characters according to certain information gathered from each character.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I'm not a Pit mainer, so I don't know how you guys feel he should be. What I've seen by Pits in different tourneys, both through results and videos (especially videos), is that he's just an average character that can be tourney-viable in the right hands, exactly like ZSS, Kirby, TL, and Lucario. He definitely belongs in the tier he's in, I just disagree with his position. All of the characters I've named have some mains that do exceedingly well in tourneys and makes them look tourney-viable, causing bias to sprout within the characters' communities such as "my character should be higher because...".

I don't know if it's his overrated ledge game which hasn't been exploited in USA (or has and has been debunked), or how he can gain a large-enough lead and scrooge entire matches (which I haven't seen happen but know it can be done), or him just having an average moveset... There's something that he has that just doesn't feel like he's high tier material. Maybe his potential is his ability to plank+scrooge, and if it is, I don't think it should be considered when making a tier list (unless it's a 'top gay characters' tier list). A quick example could be how Jiggs in Melee has been winning all national tourneys for a very long time, yet she still hasn't been moved into the upper tiers because they were only considering "what can be done theoretically" and just put off what Mango and hbox were consistently doing... I feel like Pit's being rated for what he MIGHT be able to do, and not what he's currently doing (and shown to do). I truly believe that he's overrated now, and I have no idea why people would consider putting him higher.

Care to shed some light?


EDIT: People keep saying "he has the tools to become S/A tier", but I don't see ANYONE applying these tools as of yet. We've had the game for 2 years now, man! Where are these supposed S/A-tier tools?

Have you watched Masashi or Danny(plays mega-gay)?

Don't base your opinion based on what you see locals do because they have probably play Pit incorrectly. I remember you saying “Brawl is a defensive game.” Amirite? Pit has one of the best projectiles in the game. He plays similar to Falco because of the fact that he is in control of the match from the gecko. I also remember you mentioning the fact that a “good” charcter by Brawl standards should be able to pressure shields. Pits has that! Pit can curve his arrows to “pierce” shields by aiming for the head or feet. Nair and side-b add to his AMAZING shield pressure game. It only takes one hit from either of the moves to make his opponents susceptible to arrows and aerials(mostly fair/dair).

I'll add more later

 

[Nanaki]

My theory on Pit (which has basically no foundation besides personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt or not at all) is that he doesn't have much of an identity as a character because his moveset doesn't appear to point him in any particular direction to the degree of the characters around/above him.

Think of it this way: most/all of the top characters in the game have a particular type of situation that they're most comfortable in, and have the tools to make that situation work extremely beneficially for them. When those situations are taken from them, they struggle mightily to return to a comfort zone.

MK wants to sit at his max sword range and poke you both in the air and on the ground, and punish the crap out of whatever you try. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a ton of uncomfortable positions.

Snake wants to control the stage, make you approach him, and then use his crazy disjoints and range to space you out. Once he's in the air or off the stage, he's juggle bait until he can get his footing back.

Diddy wants to set up his bananas and combo the crap out of any mistake you make within his throwing range. If you can gain control of his bananas, he has to scramble until he can reset himself somewhat.

Falco wants to run from you until you're ready to die. Once in the air or off the stage, he's in trouble until he can get back to horizontal and keep the camp alive.

ZSS wants to put you in the air and keep you there. Her grounded moveset just can't compete with most upper tier characters, except to pop people up.

Etc.

But with Pit...where does he truly want to be? What's the comfort zone?

-Sitting on the opposite side of the stage spamming arrows? They're spammable, but not nearly to the degree of Falco's lasers. They take a decent amount of time to start up and can't keep someone locked down long enough to prevent walk-PS approach.

-In a Luigi-esque boxing match? He has a 5 frame jab.

-Spacing like MK/Marth? His longest ranged horizontal spacing moves have 14 frame (ftilt) and 12 (?) frame (fair) startups with significant cooldown. Definitely not safe on shield unless retreating.

I personally think Pit's metagame will eventually be similar to ZSS' in nature, with some camping/ledge play additions. Most of Pit's moveset sends characters at a very vertical trajectory. His fastest ground option (utilt) is a great juggle setup, and his uair lingers long enough to punish the crap out of airdodges. Vertical arrows can force reactions from loooong distances, and WoI can chase vertically quickly.

I think it'll be something like:

-Arrows to 'force' approach.
-Pop into the air at first opportunity (usmash OoS, utilt, uthrow, etc.)
-Keep the baddie there as long as possible.

Instead of what I mostly see now, trying to space fairs on shield and 'wingdash-punish' gimmicks. That or a 'wannabe Falco' run-spam game. Not trying to take anything away from top Pit players, I'm sure they understand him better than I do. However, there probably aren't many of them for a good reason for a character with so much 'potential'.

/rant

 

[XtricksterX]

well at least falcon went up some places

 

[Kewkky]

Have you watched Masashi or Danny(plays mega-gay)?

Yes. :|

Don't base your opinion based on what you see locals do because they have probably play Pit incorrectly.

Sorry if you misunderstood, but I meant "watch videos and tourneys that aren't my local ones". Since I haven't ever really tried learning Pit at a nice level unlike a bunch of other characters, I don't have much around me to base my opinions off of, so I have to make due with what other Pit mains do.

I remember you saying “Brawl is a defensive game.” Amirite? Pit has one of the best projectiles in the game. He plays similar to Falco because of the fact that he is in control of the match from the gecko. I also remember you mentioning the fact that a “good” charcter by Brawl standards should be able to pressure shields. Pits has that! Pit can curve his arrows to “pierce” shields by aiming for the head or feet. Nair and side-b add to his AMAZING shield pressure game. It only takes one hit from either of the moves to make his opponents susceptible to arrows and aerials(mostly fair/dair).

But... Where's the proof of this in our tourneys? AFAIK there's only a small handful of eye-popping Pit mains around, and the ones that trail behind them are a LOT worse. To me, it seems like another case of the Anther/ChuDat/NickRiddle/M2K/ADHD/Ally/Lain/DMG/Zucco/DEHF/MikeHAZE and one or two other top-character mains behind them.

Plus, Masashi is from Japan, and our tierlist is influenced by our own tourney scene, so even if he does great out there in Japan, here in USA his influence isn't felt.

 

[stingers]

lol...its "from the get go" not "from the gecko"

 

[Nanaki]

lol...its "from the get go" not "from the gecko"

"From the Gecko" sounds way cooler.

It should probably be in a Geico commercial.

 

[professor mgw]

I'm not a Pit mainer, so I don't know how you guys feel he should be. What I've seen by Pits in different tourneys, both through results and videos (especially videos), is that he's just an average character that can be tourney-viable in the right hands, exactly like ZSS, Kirby, TL, and Lucario. He definitely belongs in the tier he's in, I just disagree with his position. All of the characters I've named have some mains that do exceedingly well in tourneys and makes them look tourney-viable, causing bias to sprout within the characters' communities such as "my character should be higher because...".

I don't know if it's his overrated ledge game which hasn't been exploited in USA (or has and has been debunked), or how he can gain a large-enough lead and scrooge entire matches (which I haven't seen happen but know it can be done), or him just having an average moveset... There's something that he has that just doesn't feel like he's high tier material. Maybe his potential is his ability to plank+scrooge, and if it is, I don't think it should be considered when making a tier list (unless it's a 'top gay characters' tier list). A quick example could be how Jiggs in Melee has been winning all national tourneys for a very long time, yet she still hasn't been moved into the upper tiers because they were only considering "what can be done theoretically" and just put off what Mango and hbox were consistently doing... I feel like Pit's being rated for what he MIGHT be able to do, and not what he's currently doing (and shown to do). I truly believe that he's overrated now, and I have no idea why people would consider putting him higher.

Care to shed some light?


EDIT: People keep saying "he has the tools to become S/A tier", but I don't see ANYONE applying these tools as of yet. We've had the game for 2 years now, man! Where are these supposed S/A-tier tools?

~Pit has one of the greatest and fastest projectiles in the game, good combo set-ups, 2 reflectors, 3 jumps a glide and a pretty good up-b recovery and his moveset is pretty decent. His potiential hasn't been met yet, he's equiped so greatly with excellent moves to me personally

 

[<π]

Pit has one of the easiest to gimp recovery's, an easy to punish projectile, lacks solid kill moves, the two most useless reflects in the game, and is very slow in the air. He is definitely past his prime and will be moving down shortly. He is so poorly equipped for high level play to me personally.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Yes. :|


Sorry if you misunderstood, but I meant "watch videos and tourneys that aren't my local ones". Since I haven't ever really tried learning Pit at a nice level unlike a bunch of other characters, I don't have much around me to base my opinions off of, so I have to make due with what other Pit mains do.


But... Where's the proof of this in our tourneys? AFAIK there's only a small handful of eye-popping Pit mains around, and the ones that trail behind them are a LOT worse. To me, it seems like another case of the Anther/ChuDat/NickRiddle/M2K/ADHD/Ally/Lain/DMG/Zucco/DEHF/MikeHAZE and one or two other top-character mains behind them.

Plus, Masashi is from Japan, and our tierlist is influenced by our own tourney scene, so even if he does great out there in Japan, here in USA his influence isn't felt.

All of what you said is very true. I think Pit is struggling because of the facts Nanaki mentioned. Pit just doesn't have ONE trait to go by. He has multiple good traits, but not great traits. He also doesn't get mu ***** unlike some of the characters above him(G&W, D3). It will take a great player to use Pit's tools and lead Pits into a direction that will move him up in tournament placings.

I feel that 2010 will be Pit's year and that you all will finally be able to see what Pit is capable of.

 

[UltiMario]

Gadiel needs to watch the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C23OKofgO0

 

[Kewkky]

~Pit has one of the greatest and fastest projectiles in the game, good combo set-ups, 2 reflectors, 3 jumps a glide and a pretty good up-b recovery and his moveset is pretty decent. His potiential hasn't been met yet, he's equiped so greatly with excellent moves to me personally

I know he's equipped with 'excellent moves', but why is it that 2 years after Brawl's release, Pit still hasn't blown off people's minds, unlike the current top characters? For someone with S/A-tier tools, we should've already seen some great action besides just 1-2 good players repping him and that's it. Other characters got their rep because at the start of the game, we pretty much were evenly split between all characters (besides, of course, character favoritism like Snake's case, but that got ironed out as the months passed and the 2nd tierlist was released). 2 years later, players realized how good some characters were, how bad other characters were, and which were the middle-class. Why is it that Pit still hasn't realized his potential, when even some characters above/below him have? I do NOT believe that "he was never used because there were better alternatives", in two years' time there obviously should be some sort of proof that he SHOULD be S/A-tier, but there isn't.

Where's the proof? All I'm getting fed are words, as are many other players. Same exact thing is done with Sheik, where it's been said that Sheik has lots of untapped potential... I want to see some action and not words, because action speaks for itself, while words can be brought up by anyone who can put a sentence together. If I said that ZSS is top 10, would you agree with me? Isn't it obvious that something's wrong with wat I'm saying? Hell, where is the proof besides the only few ZSS mainers who have managed to place within their own regions? Snakeee was the ZSS pioneer, and he himself said that ZSS was so limited he dropped her, yet non-top mainers are still saying ZSS should be higher.

I don't get this. I don't get Pit's rise. I don't get his S/A-tier tools, and how his tools still aren't used to the point where people would agree Pit to be S/A-tier. Hell, I haven't seen any Pits in tourneys plank and scrooge their way to the top of national tourneys, even less 100-man tourneys, yet his planking and scrooging game are regarded by many as equally cheap/cheaper than MK's... And I really need someone to tell me why this is, some Pit mainer who believes him to be S/A-tier, and persuade me to believe so. Because, quite frankly, all I'm seeing is a very large amount of character bias. Not even ZSS mainers say ZSS should be S tier.


PS: Nothing against ZSS mainers, I'm one as well. Since I used her as an example, I used her all the way till the end. No offense!

 

[aozf05]

I dunno if this has already been said but I think samus is underrated.

 

[UltiMario]

I dunno if this has already been said but I think samus is underrated.

You know its much more convincing when you EXPLAIN your reasoning rather than just saying it.

BTW.

 

[Clai]

But... Where's the proof of this in our tourneys? AFAIK there's only a small handful of eye-popping Pit mains around, and the ones that trail behind them are a LOT worse. To me, it seems like another case of the Anther/ChuDat/NickRiddle/M2K/ADHD/Ally/Lain/DMG/Zucco/DEHF/MikeHAZE and one or two other top-character mains behind them.

When one person dominates their area with a character that's not immediately known to be amazing, it's tough to discern whether its because the character takes an excessive amount of effort to reach a top level of play, or if it's simply because this one person is the only one that bothers to put in the time and effort to play his/her character at that level. Lack of character representation can be because people simply don't want to put in the effort to uncover it's potential, not because the character isn't good.

IMHO, the metagame will have more viable characters, not less.

This post was too big and spammy.

Albert L would have done it better.

 

[<π]

Gadiel needs to watch the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C23OKofgO0

I like how his song could be dedicated to brawl peach and D.pch XD.

that said I still got mad respect for you dark. peach deserves to be higher than she is. (sheik should be above that though )

 

[stingers]

hey <3...how does that shiek glitch that crashes the game work?

 

[RATED]

I disagree, Pit should be even higher; he just doesn't have the results to prove otherwise. He has the tools for a potential S....

I stopped reading THERE at that "potential S" wow lol how could u compare Pit to : Metaknight! ****ing Metaknight! WTF METANKNIGHT! /Snake/diddy/falco/wario/marth

 

[Spelt]

hey <3...how does that shiek glitch that crashes the game work?

you jump and chain at the apex.
it only crashes the game if you haven't hit the opponent at least 3 times.

 

[<π]

hey <3...how does that shiek glitch that crashes the game work?

chain jacket before doing anything else.

 

[stingers]

which one of u is right? >.>

 

[Masky]

<3 is correct

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I stopped reading THERE at that "potential S" wow lol how could u compare Pit to : Metaknight! ****ing Metaknight! WTF METANKNIGHT! /Snake/diddy/falco/wario/marth

I was thinking of the old tier list where MK/Snake/Wario were on the same tier when I said that Pit belongs in A tier, and I along w/ other Pits plan to prove it to you. Pit's potential is like God. You can't see it, but you know it's there. It just depends on whether you believe it or not, but some will and one day when you die, you will will see the truth.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Gladiel, potential is not enough to justify moving Pit up to an even more ridiculous position on the tier list...

Once Pit's metagame is for the most part figured out, expect a fall in his position (unless he's got something *really* good hidden in there, which isn't likely). If Pit's really as amazing as people say he is, then prove it... Go win tourneys with Pit, go find out how to **** the high tiers, but until then "potential" is a really lame excuse

 

[Dark.Pch]

yea i realize that, but im a women that would prefer the sword n' axe over the pen you know? Why type about what you know of the game when you can show people what you know by fighting them in the ring?

Because bringing results with Peach for the past 2 tier list mean nothing. So showing people does not play any role in this chause Peach is not a character that matters in tournaments or people care about.

The moment we make a tier list that pleases DP the moment 500 other people start complaining.
Oh wait!

What tier the character is in is the most important thing in my opinion. And because of how things are going... if your character DID NOT drop in the tier list (through a tier basis or literal placement) then your character actually is doing well.
If you havent noticed most rises in this tier list were not because that character is doing well, its because everyone else is just dropping.

Peach was one of the few characters not to realistically fall. Thats better than most characters when the general trend the metagame is going in is that more and more characters are proving to just NOT BE VIABLE.

This is your defense? You seriously don't get it do you? You guys seriously dont have a legit reason. Or can't even con your way out of this one. Face it, you boys screwed up amd were hyprco and bias. And just dont wanna admit it to make yourselves look good.

 

[Throwback]

shaya's post has a scary impiication...less and less characters viable? 'viable' translates to 'able to fight MK'.

 

[<π]

shaya's post has a scary impiication...less and less characters viable? 'viable' translates to 'able to fight MK'.

no it doesn't.

 

[Throwback]

I stand corrected. Oh wait.

 

[<π]

Oh wait.

For what?

 

[Albert.]

shaya's post has a scary impiication...less and less characters viable? 'viable' translates to 'able to fight MK'.

put up or shut up or get out

 

[YagamiLight]

"Potential" (alone) is an incredibly poor reason for a character to move up, just throwing it out there. If the character is as good as everyone thinks he/she is (or could be), then I invite character mains to prove that in a tournament environment, not SWF. A tier list should gauge the strength of everyone in the current metagame, not some hypothetical metagame that could potentially happen if one character picks up the pace.

That's what I think of the matter, anyway. I would not say Pit sufficiently demonstrated that he was worthy of moving up +4 spots (a small boundary away from Mr. Game and Watch, no less). Even though my opinion of Peach is not nearly as enthusiastic as Dark.Pch, I do admit he has a point when he makes gigantic walls of text. Peach players have, to an extent, demonstrated some sort of capability in tourney placings. I feel the same way about Ike in that he has demonstrated beyond what I consider a shadow of a doubt that he is not low tier in both "Low" tier tourneys and actual tourneys but eh, whatever.

People should think what they wish, I suppose.

 

[Zucco]

Lucario is bad in the sense of tournament viability...the only good lucarios only secondary him, they main MK.

azen quit forever ago, don't say him.

just took 4th out of 90+ people at polybrawl. Junebug almost always places top in his region and trela is also quite good. Stuaffy has been beasting lately and I heard he beat DSF recently.


10shutupyouknownothing.

 

[Dark.Pch]

"Potential" (alone) is an incredibly poor reason for a character to move up, just throwing it out there. If the character is as good as everyone thinks he/she is (or could be), then I invite character mains to prove that in a tournament environment, not SWF. A tier list should gauge the strength of everyone in the current metagame, not some hypothetical metagame that could potentially happen if one character picks up the pace.

That's what I think of the matter, anyway. I would not say Pit sufficiently demonstrated that he was worthy of moving up +4 spots (a small boundary away from Mr. Game and Watch, no less). Even though my opinion of Peach is not nearly as enthusiastic as Dark.Pch, I do admit he has a point when he makes gigantic walls of text. Peach players have, to an extent, demonstrated some sort of capability in tourney placings. I feel the same way about Ike in that he has demonstrated beyond what I consider a shadow of a doubt that he is not low tier in both "Low" tier tourneys and actual tourneys but eh, whatever.

People should think what they wish, I suppose.

Pit demonstrated nothing. Peach has brought in more results as well as me having to go and tell people in these threads what Peach is about that I doubt BBR members have. And look at this mess. proving people with peach means nothing, But not doing it with Pit gets him a 4 point boost. freaking ********. These people dug their own grave doing this to show how fuul of it they are.

And I have yet to hear a good reason to why Peach has not moved and Pit getting this insane boost. From what I heard so far, it is all bias nonsense.

 

[stingers]

forgot about you bro, sorry man

 

[Shaya]

DP, your language is childish and pretty much inappropriate. Conning people? Wow...

No one agreed on Pit being 13th, as Ive said, some people were reasonable, than other people were like PITS BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME.
*sigh*.

All I can say is, I dont object to Pits placement in the tier he is in. Him going to the to top of that tier and hence +4 has a lot due to the system of voting. Taking into account his general position from phase one, I would feel the difference between Pit and Toon Link, Kirby and Zero Suit Samus is extremely small. Pit went up +4 but he could have easily ended up with only a +1. Peach was voted extremely close to both Donkey Kong and ROB as well. I hardly feel that Pit is > Toon Link or anyone else in his tier; really.