The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Masky]

@ Masky

lmao if lucario is 'bad' that must make characters like peach, luigi and fox downright horrible. Im lost for adjectives on any E tier or lower characters.

Yup .

 

[Code Lyon]

Yup .

Wrong.

10Wrongs

 

[Masky]

It's all about the money

 

[stingers]

Lucario is bad in the sense of tournament viability...the only good lucarios only secondary him, they main MK.

azen quit forever ago, don't say him.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Only characters that really matter tournament wise are top 8 really, any other character needs a solid secondary from the top 8 me thinks.

 

[Dark.Pch]

My net was acting up at home so I missed alot and cant even destroy Shaya with DDD for Zelda. That battle is gonna have to wait for another day. You are save for now boy. Really cause I am not in the mood to get into it. I'll leave it up to beast Zelda players like DM.

Gimpyfish, that post you made about Peach. I said all that in Peach guide. If you did not look at it then you sir, are a smart man. And realize whats up. But people don't wanna pay attention to that stuff. And go on about the cons so much.

And I still like to know why Peach has not moved at all yet? I think what is happeining with Peach is happening with Pit. Going on about things from one region. Which is a bad thing to do.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

It feels a little silly to be talking about how only a few characters matter and how everyone else is bad in a TIER LIST thread. I guess it should look something more like this?

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy, Falco
B: Everyone else meh who cares

 

[Dark.Pch]

It's not silly, it's one of the dumbiest things to say. Really when these so called characters that dont matter can actually take on and beat characters that are high tier.

 

[Browny]

If Lucario were as bad as you guys like to believe and he were to go down, who would go above him? No character below him has any right or reason to be placed above him outside of complete blind bias. Tournament results dont lie, and they are only biased against bad characters/towards good characters. Its simple, at this point in time, he is ranked #11 and thats exactly where he should be at the moment. Maybe in 6-8 months time people can bring up this issue again when they have more to argue about besides 'potential' or other delisional ramblings.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario is bad in the sense of tournament viability...the only good lucarios only secondary him, they main MK.

azen quit forever ago, don't say him.

10ZuccosTrelas

Spoiler

andKsizzlesfornow

I felt he should've been below G&W imo, but his results I guess were what SBR were looking at.

That's the thing though, aside from pound 4, ksizzle and Lee Martin, the people everyone esteemed as "the people bringing his results up", really didn't :\

Lee's almost ALWAYS MK, same with Ksizzle lol, if you look at the results, a lot of it is, like I said, Junebug, Zucco, and Trela holding him up. Lee usually does Lucario in doubles, which I think is the reason for the misconception that he uses lucario in his "half n' half" results more than he does.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dude, results dont mean a darn thing anymore. it's just as one smart Only the characters that matter to people is when results play a role. as one person said:

"Tournament results dont lie, and they are only biased against bad characters/towards good characters"

 

[phi1ny3]

They are pretty relevant for higher up chars, although I admit C-D tier on down usually get screwed over and thus renders results useless.

What exactly do you suppose should move over Lucario? Peach? Kirby? DK? I've done the math before in this thread, I'm pretty confident when I say Lucario's got solid numbers. He's definitely limited, but I think he kind of holds the bar for decency, not really bad, abusable problems, but if you want to win you'll definitely want to pick another char. Wario, Marth, MK, Diddy, and Snake define solidity on a higher level, probably the reason why they are placed in the fashion they are, as opposed to ones like DDD, Olimar, and G&W.

I think imo the only ones that should go over him are possibly G&W, Pit (very, very slight chance, esp. with some ruleset stuff involved), and maaaaaaybe ZSS.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I really dont care where lucario is placed. But what you are saying is no good wther one is to say he is good or bad. Cause for what I could say, I did my Math with Peach. Since the tier list before this and she has not moved for the second time. Obviously they choose to ignore her tournament placings. And I bet you 500 bucks no one can give me a legit reason with Data in the BBR to why this happened.

And this is one of my problems with the community. to much bias crap and people only paying attention to characters that only matter to them. How are meta games gonna improve by the people who are in a group to help? I'm actually happy to see people like Shadow link and deus in there. Cause I know for one thing, they are not on this nonsense.

 

[phi1ny3]

to much bias crap and people only paying attention to characters that only matter to them.

I think that SBR is far different in approach than say, a Japanese or "potentialist". They realize "Hey, we release these periodically, I'm sure everyone knows that our lists don't actually determine how good a character is (only the developers should really be given that), we want to show who's healthy in this game, who's not. Potential could be a factor, but, we think it's safe to say that the best measuring stick of characters within a relatively short span of time is to look at results, and MUs".

Sheik could be the best char in the world (don't get any assumptions people, I'm not on this bandwagon), but it wouldn't matter to SBR, its got good and bad tied to it, but I think its a decent approach. Lucario dropped big in the prior tier list, and it really was due to people figuring out his limits after C3 (at least I think that was the period this character really started to crack), and his rep was near non-existent. Lee Martin was pretty much our only placing main of any sort, and he always picked MK. The fact that after all his limits were learned, and he still has made a comeback, told me otherwise (I actually thought he was going to stay the same this next tier list, or rise 1 spot).

Back on track to character development, "seeing is believing". Currently, I thought that Fox was going somewhere with how TKD and Rookie were making his metagame expand rapidly, but it didn't affect his tier placement. Why? According to rep, he still suffered. It's really a chain reaction/long term development that occurs that I think differentiates "hyped" positions from "deserved", and that's something that SBR thinks that results can reflect the easiest (ironically, it can also be potentially the most shifty as well).

I also believe Peach should've gotten better, but there's not a real "bannerman" holding her out as of now imo.

 

[Spelt]

You heard it here first, folks. Sheik is the best character!

 

[phi1ny3]

lol noooooo I didn't sign up for this!

It's not silly, it's one of the dumbiest things to say. Really when these so called characters that dont matter can actually take on and beat characters that are high tier.

When you have people like Masky, they don't want people that can struggle but manage in big MUs. They want ones that have been proven by results, MUs, tools, etc. time and time again to hold and win top 3 in big environments. I think this is actually where Lucario falters, I have seen that he buckles in bigger sized tournaments too often, as he becomes incredibly limited after a few bracket sweeps compared to the top 6 or so characters.

tl;dr MK wins people.

 

[Dark.Pch]

First paragraph- If that is the case, then why the hell do they waste thier time making one. But instead but lil effort to make a legit one.

Everything else- "seeing is believing" is BS Again Look at what happen with Peach, which is a big opening on the tier list to show what BS they are on when they make these things. When I explained what Peach was all about and can really do, people were like " Less talk more action, you can say all this and that but we need results toback what you say" And gues what, me and the other peach players did. We did it before the pervious one as well. But this time we did even better. And........she still does not move. But now that talk of "show results more than talk about it" is all lies, or atleast to characters that are not important to people and dont matter in tournaments. it's all about the high tier and over hyped characters that camp and plank like Pit.

Pit the oppisite of what Peach got. ignoring his tourny results and going on about what he can do. Thst all that mattered. And he gets this biased boosted. I honestly dont know why people buy into this nonsense.

Also, people have to vote to who goes where on the tier list. For link and Zelda, I beat you people just went on about how they are bad and said **** thier good quialities about them. And with the lack of research to know these characters true skills, They just went with that other crap and and voted. Thus you have them where they are now.

You have three freaking peach players in the BBR, all WC. They make another tier list and come up with this? freaking link only gets it bad due to his recovery and lanck of killing. link can spaces, has projectiles so get damage off, and has a good ground game. His air game is ok. He also has good range. he can zone in on people and can follow up well with GOOD projectile use, not just picking a bomb then throwing it right away, thats not playing look or using projectiles well. This is not brawl 101. And he has a Good Z-air. And I believe Link can survive well due to his weight. done correctly he has a good pressure game. I'm falling in love more with his jab cancles to w/e I can do next to mix it up and bait shields, rolls or attacks.

Zelda, I am not even gonna go on about her bad side cause I am sure people dream about that in their sleep for all I hear and the over bashing of the character. Zelda has good defense options and her attacks back a Punch. Even her Jab. Her Jab and Fsmash push you hack if you shield so in some cahses, it is hard to punish that. Cause you have to add shield stun and also dropping yout shield to do something to punish her. Also her attacks can poke the shield since they have ******** priority. Big characters get it the worst. This can even get at characters that suck in the shield well like meta. And also helps when fighting IC.Spaced attacks on shields to Dsmash are hard to punish. Or space my attacks then GTFO, you cant punish me. I can do 2 jabs. You shield one and try to come at me, I do another and you get hit. nair works well if used correctly and gets at Big characters. And I am not quite sure on this yet (need to test it) but her Nair can not be SDI.


Like come on with this man. it does not take a group of people to figure this stuff out. But of course things like this dont matter to them at all.

 

[humble]

Oh look! Dark.Pch posted. With the orange text and all it looks like a brick wall, nicely complementing that fact that it is a wall of text. Brevity is nice sometime Dark, here I'll help you.

"Peach is teh awezumz, you guys are all stupid, peach wins alot but doesn't go up teh tier lists, wtf?!? You guys are all liars.

Pit sucks and you guys are all biased cuz of hype. (lol dark.pch accusing someone else of character bias, kettle you are black)

Link and Zelda are teh awezumz, you guys are all stupid.

BBR is stupid too. "

Yes, I was making light of your post with the obvious trolling, but really, please be more concise with your posts, and give shorter messages, as it is tiring to flip to a page and think "oh great, a dark.pch post. *sigh* might as well read it, I always wondered how great peach is...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Nothin wrong with being passionate about your character, however i wouldnt force the issue on other people through words. I'd force them to see things my way with grabs.



Just my preference. I still like Peach and can appreciate her float, combo ability and ATs-- from a distance.

freaking link only gets it bad due to his recovery and lanck of killing.

I dont see how link has a hard time killing when he can kill with; uair,dair,fair,dsmash,fsmash,ftilt, grounded upb. He can also use bomb set ups to help accelerate the launch speed of his opponent when they're flung into them

 

[Code Lyon]

DP isn't as bad as you know who Dark Energy, DP brings some solid stuff.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

yea i realize that, but im a women that would prefer the sword n' axe over the pen you know? Why type about what you know of the game when you can show people what you know by fighting them in the ring?

 

[Code Lyon]

Yea I completely understand but if you are stupid with the pen you are more than likely to be stupid with the sword n' axe.


EDIT: Lol don't quote me on that.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

its ok we have adumbrous chuee for that

i could never be a master at character bias

 

[llamapaste]

June is the best Lucario today and no one has mentioned him. I agree with DJ Browny. Who's passing Lucario if he goes down? The only character that could is GaW. Lucario is much better than Pit imo.

 

[Shaya]

The moment we make a tier list that pleases DP the moment 500 other people start complaining.
Oh wait!

What tier the character is in is the most important thing in my opinion. And because of how things are going... if your character DID NOT drop in the tier list (through a tier basis or literal placement) then your character actually is doing well.
If you havent noticed most rises in this tier list were not because that character is doing well, its because everyone else is just dropping.

Peach was one of the few characters not to realistically fall. Thats better than most characters when the general trend the metagame is going in is that more and more characters are proving to just NOT BE VIABLE.

 

[HeroMystic]

I dont see how link has a hard time killing when he can kill with; uair,dair,fair,dsmash,fsmash,ftilt, grounded upb. He can also use bomb set ups to help accelerate the launch speed of his opponent when they're flung into them

Because they're hard to hit with.

 

[Masky]

It feels a little silly to be talking about how only a few characters matter and how everyone else is bad in a TIER LIST thread. I guess it should look something more like this?

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Marth, Wario
B: Everyone else meh who cares

I fixed it for you

 

[Nanaki]

^^pffffft lol.

Biased post is biased. Last time an IC's, Marth or Wario placed top 8 at a national without a secondary?

...maybe Fiction at Genesis?

EDIT: Forgot about EVO. Haze and Fiction both placed there. My bad.

 

[Kewkky]

Link may have many killing options, but he still has a hard time killing. Everytime Link gets close, it means he's going to attack and NOT grab (because of the risk of being punished ue to a whiff), so you just shield accordingly, depending on the distance between you both. I've noticed Links usually grab after zairs (TL does the same too), so it's their punishment against shielding opponents... Still risky since we can evade the grab, but less risky than trying to grab shields outright. Link might have 6-7 kill moves, but landing them is a problem and has always been. Who wouldn't shield his dair? Who'd try to airdodge straight through an aerial Link knowing his uair/dair might be used? Who's going to ignore playing defensive by excessively shielding against Link when at risk of dying at killing %? It doesn't matter if all a character's moves are kill moves that kill Snake at 130%, if it's very hard landing them then he's not going anywhere.

I don't think ZSS should be over Lucario. There's one thing Lucario can do very well that ZSS has to really work for: punishing excessive shielding. This is very important seeing as Brawl is a defensive game by nature, so having reliable options against a defensive strategy as well as similar punishment options (for example, knock your opponent into the air and take it from there because they tried to beat your close-ranged game) to many other universal strategies... So, if Lucario were to move below ZSS for some random reason, then he'd have to move below a couple more characters as well, and I don't think Lucario is THAT bad. The only thing I stated was that his tourney results were inflated due to the MK mains using Lucario for a couple of matches, so they're not 'pure' Lucario results.

 

[Ganon is S Tier!]

Ganon Is The God **** Light!

This post was too big and spammy.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Anyone saved that Ganon post? I wanna see it for the lulz

 

[yoichX]

what dose tier mean?

 

[Code Lyon]

Anyone saved that Ganon post? I wanna see it for the lulz

I wish I saved it I was maadddddd funny he qouted like 20 pages worth of stuff, called DP the stupidest person on Earth and he is wasting his time with a crappy character, a lot blocked words (lol), and he said ganon was the best.

^ Overall of the post he made but a lot funnier.

He went on to try to spam all the boards with some ganon was the best stuff....

EDIT: Oh yea he said he could beat 3 lvl 9s with Ganon without losing a stock.

 

[phi1ny3]

So Pit really mystified me, it was probably the only one where there wasn't exactly solidity by results like most chars on this list, but is a character that has been labeled as strong in potential, was it the fact that he was so low as it was, that having someone like Kool Aid was enough to make him rise from results? Was it the possible promise of having someone who might've holstered him finally ala Reflex -> PT (as PT also rose in this list)?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Isn't Spam like...Short Pointless Annoying Message or something? How can it be too big AND spam.

 

[phi1ny3]

iirc it's "Sporadically Posting Annoying Messages".

 

[Ray Robo]

I like this new tier. To me it's more accurate then the others. However, I dont think Zelda is that bad of a character.

 

[LanceStern]

I think what Dark Peach was trying to say is that:

1) When he and other peaches posted and said that Peach was capable of being higher on the tier list, everyone laughed / ridiculed rejected it and said you ahve to back up the theory with results.

2) The peaches went out and placed CONSISTENTLY high in tournies around the globe. check the Peach tourney results section or bascially any tourney results topic in the Tournament results board. you'll see Peaches inthe Top 3s, top 4s, top 7s and at least 9s in a majority of the tournies.

3) the peaches backed up talk with results, but the new tier list came out and Peach still didn't move. Where as it's very strange Pit jumped.

4) Some people may say "Well Pit is a better character because of x y and z" and maybe 1 or 2 pits did good in the east coast or something. But if you go on that same tournament results board and check just about any brawl tournament, you see consistently higher and better results from Peaches than the nonexistent placings of Pit. But Pit got a bump, and peach stayed the same.

Throwing everything out of the window, Pit moved up on the tier list because of potential, and not results.


So why did that happen?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

iirc it's "Sporadically Posting Annoying Messages".

I thought it was "Stupid Pointless Annoying Messages."

Huh.

 

[Kewkky]

Pit's jump was based on a theoretical scenario, where all of the characters were weighted by considering the BBR's ruleset and not other spin-off rules like so many TOs do. In the BBR's rules, there's nothing preventing planking and scrooging, so they voted with that in mind, and knowing Pit's ledge game and how annoying it can be when no limits are imposed on him and when players care nothing but money and are patient enough to spend whole matches on the ledge (theorycraft, i know), Pit would be higher... So, he ended up averaging at #13 as we can see. It's not because everyone in the BBR discussed Pit and all came together and said "yeah, the majority of us say he's #13, so let's put him as #13", it's because everyone voted around that area, and it averaged out to be the 13th spot of the tierlist.

I disagree with his position, and I know he's definitely worse than that. Guess we gotta wait for the next tier list to see what happens, maybe the BBR's rules will have changed by then. In the meanwhile, people should try and prove he shouldn't be that high, and also prove that there needs to be a rule against planking/stalling, as well as help the community as a whole by looking for an agreeable rule towards planking/stalling.