The Official Chaingrabbing Thread.

[TheReflexWonder]

So you're saying that the fact that people float in the air or move on the ground more slowly that has no impact of D3's grab and it would work regardless of what engine were using.

It does affect it, and it is the engine, but I don't think that floatiness or slower speed automatically makes the game engine "dumbed down".

This isn't true, even with the single pummel it is inescapable at human thresholds.
to clarify:
DDDs pummel takes 29 frames to execute before he can throw or pummel again.
Within this time you must try to take off a certain amount of frames in order to break out of it.
The number of frames you have to take off is 90 plus 1.7 per every percentage point.
DDD can throw you 5 times before he has to pummel you. (about 40%)
The pummel adds 8%. So the least amount of frames you need to break out of (if he grabbed you at 0%, is about 170.)
Each button you press (including one cardinal direction of your control stick and one flick of the c-stick) takes away 8 frames.
I find the most amount of buttons I can hit at one time is 7 (a,b,x,y,l,r, and the control stick in one direction...) so this will minus 56 frames per every repetition.
The human reaction time to hit these buttons is 10-20 frames, the triggers and the control stick being the hardest to hit in this time.... it takes an equal amount of time to return to your original position.
THEREFORE
in the 29 frames you need to break out of the pummel, at the fastest you can expect (10 frames to hit the buttons) you will minus 56 frames on the 10th frame, return to your original position on the 20th frame, and hit them again on the 30th frame. Which, even if the second set goes through you will only have deducted 112 frames from the total you need of 170. Which means that at 0% its not likely you will break out of it if the ddd executes it properly. In fact, even if you can get 3 repetitions in in half a second it STILL wouldn't be enough to break out of.
Therefore, the infinite is unescapable at human thresholds and gets harder as the percentage increases.
which is why you don't see people breaking out of the first pummel on a grab a lot unless the grabber messes up in his timing. (you'd basically need to be able to do 4 repetitions in under half a second.)

I question how you press buttons to get out of grabs. I argue that any mashing that makes you have to hold the controller in an unfamiliar manner is obsolete.

Also, I guarantee you that it does not take me 20-40 frames to press a set of buttons and "reset" my hands. If it takes you 56 frames to press seven buttons and put your hands back to normal, your method is slllllllloooooooowwwwwwwwwwww.

Once again, watch that video link I posted a couple posts ago. Partly because it shows someone breaking out at 129%, and partly because I'm playing. <3

 

[bobson]

This isn't true, even with the single pummel it is inescapable at human thresholds.
to clarify:
DDDs pummel takes 29 frames to execute before he can throw or pummel again.
Within this time you must try to take off a certain amount of frames in order to break out of it.
The number of frames you have to take off is 90 plus 1.7 per every percentage point.
DDD can throw you 5 times before he has to pummel you. (about 40%)
The pummel adds 8%. So the least amount of frames you need to break out of (if he grabbed you at 0%, is about 170.)
Each button you press (including one cardinal direction of your control stick and one flick of the c-stick) takes away 8 frames.
I find the most amount of buttons I can hit at one time is 7 (a,b,x,y,l,r, and the control stick in one direction...) so this will minus 56 frames per every repetition.
The human reaction time to hit these buttons is 10-20 frames, the triggers and the control stick being the hardest to hit in this time.... it takes an equal amount of time to return to your original position.
THEREFORE
in the 29 frames you need to break out of the pummel, at the fastest you can expect (10 frames to hit the buttons) you will minus 56 frames on the 10th frame, return to your original position on the 20th frame, and hit them again on the 30th frame. Which, even if the second set goes through you will only have deducted 112 frames from the total you need of 170. Which means that at 0% its not likely you will break out of it if the ddd executes it properly. In fact, even if you can get 3 repetitions in in half a second it STILL wouldn't be enough to break out of.
Therefore, the infinite is unescapable at human thresholds and gets harder as the percentage increases.
which is why you don't see people breaking out of the first pummel on a grab a lot unless the grabber messes up in his timing. (you'd basically need to be able to do 4 repetitions in under half a second.)

You realize that the post you quoted has video proof that it's humanly possible, right?

 

[Hive]

I question how you press buttons to get out of grabs. I argue that any mashing that makes you have to hold the controller in an unfamiliar manner is obsolete.

Also, I guarantee you that it does not take me 20-40 frames to press a set of buttons and "reset" my hands. If it takes you 56 frames to press seven buttons and put your hands back to normal, your method is slllllllloooooooowwwwwwwwwwww.

Once again, watch that video link I posted a couple posts ago. Partly because it shows someone breaking out at 129%, and partly because I'm playing. <3

Its not slow at all :/ you are mistaken, no matter what the frame rate you think it is, I doubt that the average player could do over 3 repetitions in under half a second which is what is completely necessary to break out of it with the data. This is over the human threshold, wouldn't you agree?. (you can test this right now by trying to hit the r button 4 times in one half sec and timing it).

The controller is also not held in an unfamiliar position. Previous data to break out of it on the other hand (the data you are using btw), does rely on the person holding it in an unreal way (i.e.pressing the control stick, the c-stick, the x,y,b,a, and z buttons, and the l and r triggers at the same time) and doing this very fast.

(also, I never said at all that it takes 56 frames to hit 7 buttons and get back to your original position... 56 frames is the number of frames you subtract from the (90+1.7 *percentage) to see if you break out, since each button subtracts 8. The actual number I used in the data was 20 frames to press the button and get back, which was the min that you could expect. Even if you took the absolute slowest time I suggested (20 frames to react and hit the button) it would STILL be under 56 frames to hit the button and get back (40 frames))

The video doesn't prove anything, its very likely there is a gap in the frames that the ddd pummelled in which would make it possible to break out, that and the wario also might have had a fast reaction time (compared to the average) and was able to take advantage of the missing frames, which would have allowed him to break out after the pummel.
WHich is why I added the data, bc data is more fool proof.
Its lame to expect people to break out after the first pummel because the ddd was off in his pummel frames, the average competitive player can't do this reliably....you basically need the ddd to miss frames and the person to be exceptionally reactive, which is why you don't see this in tourney more often (aka the only time you've really been able to find this is in that vid) I think it would have occurred more often if it was a possible as you think it is.

edit: also, nice wario

 

[IrArby]

@ The Reflex Wonder: Still proves that slowing down everything has made stupid infinites possible. I'm just laughing at the fact that by trying to remove competitive elements they put in worse ones.

 

[bobson]

It has nothing to do with the ease of controls or slowed-down speed compared to Melee.

It just happened to be there. As players, we should just deal with it.

Actually, when you add hitstun back in, Dedede loses his chaingrab.

things

You're missing a key factor here: rotating the control stick. Assuming that frame reduction only occurs on the cardinal directions, that's -32 frames for every rotation. I can rotate it about three times in half a second, (thanks, Mario Party) which drops a nice 96 frames on top of the other buttonpresses. Also, the buttons themselves have varying difficulty of repeated pressing. With A, B, X and Y, for instance, it is feasible to fit four or more repetitions within half a second, (thanks, Gracie/Canary Mary) whereas L, R, and Z have more awkward triggers and are harder to land.

Getting frame perfect accuracy on King Dedede's pummel > dthrow is as hard as pressing A and mashing down. Most people do it without thinking. I'm fairly certain that Mew2King, (against Reflex, who had broken out of his pummels before) in the winner's finals of a tournament, would be capable of doing it.

My basis for arguing against this is the fact that I broke out consistently around 80-90% in a series of fights against a Dedede main, and, given that my reaction time is equatable with that of a stump and that I explicitly instructed him on how to perform the infinite perfectly beforehand, this makes me 99% certain that breaking out consistently is humanly and realistically possible for anyone who'll take a match to practice it and that I didn't just happen to be performing miracles in those matches.

 

[Hive]

You're missing a key factor here: rotating the control stick. Assuming that frame reduction only occurs on the cardinal directions, that's -32 frames for every rotation. I can rotate it about three times in half a second, (thanks, Mario Party) which drops a nice 96 frames on top of the other buttonpresses. Also, the buttons themselves have varying difficulty of repeated pressing. With A, B, X and Y, for instance, it is feasible to fit four or more repetitions within half a second, (thanks, Gracie/Canary Mary) whereas L, R, and Z have more awkward triggers and are harder to land.

Getting frame perfect accuracy on King Dedede's pummel > dthrow is as hard as pressing A and mashing down. Most people do it without thinking. I'm fairly certain that Mew2King, (against Reflex, who had broken out of his pummels before) in the winner's finals of a tournament, would be capable of doing it.

My basis for arguing against this is the fact that I broke out consistently around 80-90% in a series of fights against a Dedede main, and, given that my reaction time is equatable with that of a stump and that I explicitly instructed him on how to perform the infinite perfectly beforehand, this makes me 99% certain that breaking out consistently is humanly and realistically possible for anyone who'll take a match to practice it and that I didn't just happen to be performing miracles in those matches.

I'm not missing the control stick at all
look... maybe I'm mistaken, but I find the claim that you can rotate the control stick 3 times in one half a second disbelievable. You are claiming that you can react, press the control stick, and rotate in a complete circle in 10 frames, the time it takes even some of the faster people to hit a button. I think this is an exaggeration. And even if it somehow isn't, I REALLY doubt that this is indicative of most other smashers by a long shot. I would say it takes more frames actually to hit the control stick in one direction actually then hitting a button due to the larger amount of energy and space you have to move the control stick.

As for the breaking out at 80-90% I would say that is a result of him messing up the timing in the grab. Why? because you basically had to tell him how to do the infinite beforehand, he probably doesn't have the timing perfectly down yet, seemingly small changes in the timing can have large effects on your ability to break out. This I think is a lot more feasible explanation than the frame data being wrong. Also, if your reaction time is as bad as you think it is I doubt you could rotate the control stick in 3 times in one half second. Plus you anticipated the pummel earlier than most people would, though this is only a slight change.
If breaking out of the grab was as easy as you are trying to make it out to be than it would happen more in tourneys and in games, and also, probably would have never been found to be an infinite in the first place, because initial tests would have found otherwise. HOWEVER, these both are not the case.
(your original data that you stated and posted on mario boards said that you could break out until 200% with regular button mashing for example, which is even more unreal).

Look... I know I sound nitpicky right now, I'm really not trying to be , and I would believe you bobson if you proved your point, I'm not trying to be uber stubborn, but I just think that the data ref gave me has a lot more basis than what you are saying... I hope you understand

 

[Titanium Dragon]

The human reaction time to hit these buttons is 10-20 frames, the triggers and the control stick being the hardest to hit in this time.... it takes an equal amount of time to return to your original position.

No. The human reaction time to hit those buttons is very, very short if you're good at it. I've trained myself with a stopwatch (for fun, mind you) to hit the start/stop button in under a tenth of a second, consistently. Hitting it once every nine frames is sufficient to free you if you got grabbed at 0%, and that is entirely plausible.

Also, you can hit nine buttons (a,b,x,y,l,r,z1,z2, control stick) pretty easily on a classic controller if you train yourself to do so, which is an additional +12 frames, or 68 frames. I'm sure someone could train themselves to hit all eleven (cstick and directional pad) and add on another +16, for 84 frames - at which point, to escape even at 170 you'd only need to hit it twice in 29 frames. And if you can tap a button every tenth of a second, you're looking at that one button alone buying you 8 * 9 = 72 frames on its lonesome. Tapping two buttons every 10th of a second is 144 frames, which will again free you from a grab from 0%. You could easily tap four buttons every tenth of a second (directional pad/stick, button, L, R) which is 72 * 4 = 288 frames. And I'm certain it is humanly possible to do at least this, as I've trained myself to do it with a stopwatch, so doing it with a controller should be easy. You could also rotate both joysticks and press L/R, and that again should buy you about the same.

Its more than humanly possible to escape grabs at those percentages.

Any time someone says it isn't humanly possible, and then blatently is wrong, its clear that they are one of those people who prove my saying "Impossible is that which people don't want to admit they cannot do". Humans are quite capable of doing things with frame-perfect precision, and we are also quite capable of tapping a button within a tenth of a second.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not missing the control stick at all
look... maybe I'm mistaken, but I find the claim that you can rotate the control stick 3 times in one half a second disbelievable. You are claiming that you can react, press the control stick, and rotate in a complete circle in 10 frames, the time it takes even some of the faster people to hit a button. I think this is an exaggeration. And even if it somehow isn't, I REALLY doubt that this is indicative of most other smashers by a long shot. I would say it takes more frames actually to hit the control stick in one direction actually then hitting a button due to the larger amount of energy and space you have to move the control stick.

Never use Lulu's fury overdrive in FFX, you'll always end up getting less damage then vanilla casting the spelling if you can't rotate the stick at least that fast.

And who's this kid that requires 10 frames to press a button? I know if I did it at that speed, my FFXII quickening chains would max out at 5.


Quite simply, you're underestimating the speed at which competative players play. Heck, the speed at which any players play.

 

[bobson]

look... maybe I'm mistaken, but I find the claim that you can rotate the control stick 3 times in one half a second disbelievable. You are claiming that you can react, press the control stick, and rotate in a complete circle in 10 frames, the time it takes even some of the faster people to hit a button. I think this is an exaggeration. And even if it somehow isn't, I REALLY doubt that this is indicative of most other smashers by a long shot. I would say it takes more frames actually to hit the control stick in one direction actually then hitting a button due to the larger amount of energy and space you have to move the control stick.

It... really isn't that big of a claim. Grab a controller and rotate it yourself, as fast as if $1000 in tourney winnings was on the line. You have to exert yourself a good amount, but it's possible.

As for the breaking out at 80-90% I would say that is a result of him messing up the timing in the grab. Why? because you basically had to tell him how to do the infinite beforehand, he probably doesn't have the timing perfectly down yet, seemingly small changes in the timing can have large effects on your ability to break out. This I think is a lot more feasible explanation than the frame data being wrong. Also, if your reaction time is as bad as you think it is I doubt you could rotate the control stick in 3 times in one half second. Plus you anticipated the pummel earlier than most people would, though this is only a slight change.

He already knew how to do the infinite well enough, I just made sure he was doing it perfectly because I was basing my stand on our fights. Like I said, there's no "timing" to it; the buffer system makes frame perfect pummelthrowing a matter of pressing A and mashing the direction you want to throw. Almost everyone who uses pummels before they throw does this. I'm fairly certain he didn't just happen to screw it up every single time he grabbed me.

If breaking out of the grab was as easy as you are trying to make it out to be than it would happen more in tourneys and in games, and also, probably would have never been found to be an infinite in the first place, because initial tests would have found otherwise. HOWEVER, these both are not the case.
(your original data that you stated and posted on mario boards said that you could break out until 200% with regular button mashing for example, which is even more unreal).

I made this point in the infinite thread before I switched standings: if you can break out of a grab so fast, why aren't all pummels useless? The difference here is reaction time. This is an infinite, which means reaction time plays no part; he'll just keep using the same thing. If you're behind on your reaction to the first grab, it doesn't matter, because you'll be on time for the second one. Plus, if you main an infinitable character and are fighting Dedede, you know what he's going to go for, so your reaction time shouldn't be slow.
The 200% figure was just something I grabbed for a theoretical maximum if the world's most dextrous monk spent five years in a training temple perfecting his button mashing technique based on Reflex mashing out at over 120%.

Look... I know I sound nitpicky right now, I'm really not trying to be , and I would believe you bobson if you proved your point, I'm not trying to be uber stubborn, but I just think that the data ref gave me has a lot more basis than what you are saying... I hope you understand

Believe me, I understand. I fully believed that breaking out was impossibly hard and Reflex was just insane or Wario had some special grab-breaking powers or they were on weird terrain or there was a glitch or something, but then I tried it out for myself. Now I still think that Reflex is insane, but the others have faded away.
I'll record the next matches I have against a Dedede to prove my point. You can try it yourself if you want; optimal button mashing helps your game in more ways than just avoiding the infinite.

 

[Hive]

I'll respond later give me a sec ^^ also, thank you Bobson for being patient with me ^^ (and adumbrodeus for playing ffxi, you are automatically kwl lol )

I want to test something from you guys if you are willing
The site I'm about to send you tests reaction time... it will start off as red and when it switches to green you are expected to click the mouse as fast as you can. The answer is given in milliseconds. If you move the decimal place over three times it will give you the amount in seconds. If you multiple this amount by 60 it will give you the amount of frames that it took.
I was hoping that you would each do this for me and tell me your results (be honset please) on your first try (to prevent trying to time it out, etc...), in the milliseconds they give you and the frames. And also... its kinda fun lol
This will help me get an idea of what reaction times we should expect...

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

edit: I got 218 and 250 on the two times I tried it (ok I did it twice, I cheated lol ^^) (that is about 13-15 frames)

 

[bobson]

211. 13 frames. (rounded up)

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'll respond later give me a sec ^^ also, thank you Bobson for being patient with me ^^ (and adumbrodeus for playing ffxi, you are automatically kwl lol )

I want to test something from you guys if you are willing
The site I'm about to send you tests reaction time... it will start off as red and when it switches to green you are expected to click the mouse as fast as you can. The answer is given in milliseconds. If you move the decimal place over three times it will give you the amount in seconds. If you multiple this amount by 60 it will give you the amount of frames that it took.
I was hoping that you would each do this for me and tell me your results (be honset please) on your first try (to prevent trying to time it out, etc...), in the milliseconds they give you and the frames. And also... its kinda fun lol
This will help me get an idea of what reaction times we should expect...

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

edit: I got 218 and 250 on the two times I tried it (ok I did it twice, I cheated lol ^^) (that is about 13-15 frames)

You've gotta recognize it's not a reaction issue, it's a finger speed issue you've got plenty of time to react, just continue your pattern of mashing until you get out once the "infinite" is started.

Also, we're thinking top of the metagame remember, so check the top of the leaderboard for the reaction time we're dealing with.

So, about 8 frames.


And 163, 9.7 frames (thought as much), also FFXII and FFX, I don't have time to play MMOs.

 

[wazgood]

falcon dthrow cg is beast

EDIT::

 

[YagamiLight]

I'll respond later give me a sec ^^ also, thank you Bobson for being patient with me ^^ (and adumbrodeus for playing ffxi, you are automatically kwl lol )

I want to test something from you guys if you are willing
The site I'm about to send you tests reaction time... it will start off as red and when it switches to green you are expected to click the mouse as fast as you can. The answer is given in milliseconds. If you move the decimal place over three times it will give you the amount in seconds. If you multiple this amount by 60 it will give you the amount of frames that it took.
I was hoping that you would each do this for me and tell me your results (be honset please) on your first try (to prevent trying to time it out, etc...), in the milliseconds they give you and the frames. And also... its kinda fun lol
This will help me get an idea of what reaction times we should expect...

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

edit: I got 218 and 250 on the two times I tried it (ok I did it twice, I cheated lol ^^) (that is about 13-15 frames)

Average was 205.6 milliseconds, so 12.33 frames. Rounding down makes it a 12 frame reaction time.

Not too bad, I suppose.

EDIT:

Ah failure, way to miss the instructions. The first try was 207. Still 12 frames.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reaction time is irrelevent, however; you can press buttons before you're grabbed the second time...or you can do what I do; accidentally and stupidly miss an attack, and press buttons when you know you're as good as grabbed. :/

 

[Hive]

adumbrodeus-

I just wanted to test your reaction times mostly for fun I guess I was just interested, and I wanted to see if I was wrong to assume that reaction times of most people were about 10... so I hope it was at least a little interesting ^^
and also bc you said:

And who's this kid that requires 10 frames to press a button?

which is a little funny I guess bc you actually hit the button in 10 frames as well ^^ (it would round up to 10 since entering a command on the .7th frame will not be registered until the next whole number. Even if you hit it in 9.1 it would still count as 10 though (which is kinda weird) )
but to answer what you and reflexwonder brought up...

Reaction time is still an issue though, bc you usually have to recognize the pummel before you can start breaking out, the reaction time you take to press a button also does not differ greatly from the normal time to press a button.... (i.e. 1-2 frames max).
In both yours and bobson's case this would mean that you wouldn't break out of the infinite if the infinite is done correctly...
Even if you were able to do all of your inputs in under 8 frames (remember 8.1 frames is still 9 frames)
you would still only be ale to account for 112 frames (hit buttons at 8, release at 16, hit at 24) <170 (the frames you would have to overcome if the ddd grabbed you at 0% threw you until he had to pummel once, and then pummelled). Even if you hit your first button on the first frame it would still not account for the 170 frames (hit buttons on 1, release on 9, hit on 17, release on 25) 168. and would get harder as damage is built. And this is taking the best possible pressing time....
its almost certainly likely that you will not get below this... due to the time it takes to shift your hand position, the uncertainty (most of the time) when the ddd will do it, and pressing some of the harder buttons (like the L and R trigger), and general limitations.

so I would say the infinite is inescapable if done correctly.... unless the data is wrong (not saying its not possible ^^). Though (personally) I think is more reliable then vids of people breaking out, since there is no way to account for how many frames the grabber might have lost in the pummel. Or unless bobson is right and you can hit the control stick in a direction faster than 8 frames... (i personally don't know ^^ I for one suck at it lol).
Oh, and also if you are using the gamecube controller and if you are hitting more than 7 buttons I said earlier ^^(hitting more is really hard T.T) apparently you can hit more buttons or something if you use the classic controller (which no one uses unless your titanium dragon lol ^^)
However, don't think that I only wanted the reaction times for arguing I really am curious! ^^

The ffxi thing for lulu is soooo hard (have you actually got that thing maxed out??? 0.0 what... are you....)! I can only ever manage about 8ish hits with the element, even after I get my hands in position lol (yup, i cheat, I place one hand over the control stick and c-stick ^^).
Hey, I got all the ultimate weapons though! that's got to count for something (ps rikku is the bestest)


ps hey if I take the average of me, you, adumbrodeus, and yagamilight we got an average of 11.964 frames :D
The average on the site is 13 frames ish. hehehe take that! smashers- 1 rest of the world-0. world domination is so
imminent ^^

pss frame data is boring (but I'm geeky and I like math and I can't stop ; ; )

 

[adumbrodeus]

which is a little funny I guess bc you actually hit the button in 10 frames as well ^^ (it would round up to 10 since entering a command on the .7th frame will not be registered until the next whole number. Even if you hit it in 9.1 it would still count as 10 though (which is kinda weird) )
but to answer what you and reflexwonder brought up...

Incorrect, I REACTED to the change AND pressed the button in 10 frames.

Reaction time is a seperate issue.

Reaction time is still an issue though, bc you usually have to recognize the pummel before you can start breaking out, the reaction time you take to press a button also does not differ greatly from the normal time to press a button.... (i.e. 1-2 frames max).
In both yours and bobson's case this would mean that you wouldn't break out of the infinite if the infinite is done correctly...
Even if you were able to do all of your inputs in under 8 frames (remember 8.1 frames is still 9 frames)
you would still only be ale to account for 112 frames (hit buttons at 8, release at 16, hit at 24) <170 (the frames you would have to overcome if the ddd grabbed you at 0% threw you until he had to pummel once, and then pummelled). Even if you hit your first button on the first frame it would still not account for the 170 frames (hit buttons on 1, release on 9, hit on 17, release on 25) 168. and would get harder as damage is built. And this is taking the best possible pressing time....
its almost certainly likely that you will not get below this... due to the time it takes to shift your hand position, the uncertainty (most of the time) when the ddd will do it, and pressing some of the harder buttons (like the L and R trigger), and general limitations.

You fail on one key aspect, why in God's good name would I wait for the pummel before breaking out.

It doesn't hurt me to start prior to the actual grab, and given my approximately 10 frame reaction time, it would take execution before I'm ready to truly break-out, but I would keep mashing until it occurs.

When you already know what's going to occur and exactly when it's going to occur, if you practice enough, even frame-perfect execution is possible for short periods. For example, I can frame-perfect wavedash (again, melee, you can test it out by wavedashing next to somebody while holding the screw attack, because it hits frame 1).


So none of those factors that you mentioned about uncertainly really matter, because the fact of the matter is, unless he doesn't regrab you period (mission accomplished) the optimal strategy for the person being grab is to keep mashing the buttion until a break-out occurs.

so I would say the infinite is inescapable if done correctly.... unless the data is wrong (not saying its not possible ^^). Though (personally) I think is more reliable then vids of people breaking out, since there is no way to account for how many frames the grabber might have lost in the pummel. Or unless bobson is right and you can hit the control stick in a direction faster than 8 frames... (i personally don't know ^^ I for one suck at it lol).
Oh, and also if you are using the gamecube controller and if you are hitting more than 7 buttons I said earlier ^^(hitting more is really hard T.T) apparently you can hit more buttons or something if you use the classic controller (which no one uses unless your titanium dragon lol ^^)
However, don't think that I only wanted the reaction times for arguing I really am curious! ^^

And as I pointed out, you can, both do the control stick and hit those buttons if you do it right.

Remember, a lot of us played melee before, and are used to a lot more technical details then Brawl-only players, finger dexterity is what it comes down to, but that can be trained.

The ffxi thing for lulu is soooo hard (have you actually got that thing maxed out??? 0.0 what... are you....)! I can only ever manage about 8ish hits with the element, even after I get my hands in position lol (yup, i cheat, I place one hand over the control stick and c-stick ^^).
Hey, I got all the ultimate weapons though! that's got to count for something (ps rikku is the bestest)

16 hits with Ultima.

The fact that you can't do more then 8 a explains a lot of your inability to get out of this "infinite", it's really not too hard.

Edit: Misremembered, picked up the game again to check and I only can do 7 with Ultima because it maxes out there. I was thinking my Firaga hits.

 

[Nihongo-ookami]

Does Kirby have a chaingrab? If so, what are they?

 

[Hive]

Incorrect, I REACTED to the change AND pressed the button in 10 frames.

Reaction time is a seperate issue.


You fail on one key aspect, why in God's good name would I wait for the pummel before breaking out.

It doesn't hurt me to start prior to the actual grab, and given my approximately 10 frame reaction time, it would take execution before I'm ready to truly break-out, but I would keep mashing until it occurs.

When you already know what's going to occur and exactly when it's going to occur, if you practice enough, even frame-perfect execution is possible for short periods. For example, I can frame-perfect wavedash (again, melee, you can test it out by wavedashing next to somebody while holding the screw attack, because it hits frame 1).


So none of those factors that you mentioned about uncertainly really matter, because the fact of the matter is, unless he doesn't regrab you period (mission accomplished) the optimal strategy for the person being grab is to keep mashing the buttion until a break-out occurs.



And as I pointed out, you can, both do the control stick and hit those buttons if you do it right.

Remember, a lot of us played melee before, and are used to a lot more technical details then Brawl-only players, finger dexterity is what it comes down to, but that can be trained.



16 hits with Ultima.

The fact that you can't do more then 8 a explains a lot of your inability to get out of this "infinite", it's really not too hard.

Edit: Misremembered, picked up the game again to check and I only can do 7 with Ultima because it maxes out there. I was thinking my Firaga hits.

actually you are mistaken I already accounted for you waiting to break out in that paragraph, and assuming you hit your set of buttons on the first frame possible you would STILL not be able to break out....
Assuming you hit the buttons in under 8 frames (and above 7 frames) with the conditions stated earlier (grabbed at 0% and thrown until a pummel is needed) (which is more than generous really...) and pressing (a,b, x, y, l, r, and the control stick.)
(hit on 1, release on 9, hit on 17, release on 25=112 frames<170)
Even if you could get a third set in its still <170.


As for the control stick thing, you are overestimating its impact. Even if you somehow managed to completely double the time it takes to rotate the control stick (i.e. doing 4.0 frames a direction instead of 8 frames, which is again REALLY generous considering the fastest humans can only do 2.5 frames a second pressing a button by vibrating their thumbs in a certain way, and pressing the control stick is a harder action, energy and distance wise) you still would only delay the infinite by a small amount, you would press the control stick 7 times within the 29 frames so overall you would add only 24 frames... which would still allow you to be infinited unless you somehow got a 3rd round of buttons inside half a second, in which case you would get 192 frames>170 frames. Which means that after 13% damage the ddd would be able to infinite you once again.

I still think this is an exaggeration on the human threshold though. Even if they aren't would they really apply to many people on swf? I would still say the infinite is possible on those characters.
The problem is that if the ddd messes it up by a semi-small amount the player can get out of it and makes the illusion I think of it not being a true infinite... which I don't think is the case.

ps <sigh> lol so much talking @.@ frame data is pretty boring though lol.

pss not trying to sound like a ***** also ^^ lol. You are a fun person to listen to adumbrodeus (good points! ^^)

psss what does your name mean btw??? ^^

 

[adumbrodeus]

actually you are mistaken I already accounted for you waiting to break out in that paragraph, and assuming you hit your set of buttons on the first frame possible you would STILL not be able to break out....
Assuming you hit the buttons in under 8 frames (and above 7 frames) with the conditions stated earlier (grabbed at 0% and thrown until a pummel is needed) (which is more than generous really...) and pressing (a,b, x, y, l, r, and the control stick.)
(hit on 1, release on 9, hit on 17, release on 25=112 frames<170)
Even if you could get a third set in its still <170.

Huh? Thrown until the pummel is needed?

Doesn't work, if you don't start pummeling immediately, the throw stales too much for the infinite to work properly, it HAS to be pummel->throw every single time. With that he just barely avoids staling it enough to make it not work, doing one without a pummel is a guarenteed failed infinite.

As for the control stick thing, you are overestimating its impact. Even if you somehow managed to completely double the time it takes to rotate the control stick (i.e. doing 4.0 frames a direction instead of 8 frames, which is again REALLY generous considering the fastest humans can only do 2.5 frames a second pressing a button by vibrating their thumbs in a certain way, and pressing the control stick is a harder action, energy and distance wise) you still would only delay the infinite by a small amount, you would press the control stick 7 times within the 29 frames so overall you would add only 24 frames... which would still allow you to be infinited unless you somehow got a 3rd round of buttons inside half a second, in which case you would get 192 frames>170 frames. Which means that after 13% damage the ddd would be able to infinite you once again.

I still think this is an exaggeration on the human threshold though. Even if they aren't would they really apply to many people on swf? I would still say the infinite is possible on those characters.
The problem is that if the ddd messes it up by a semi-small amount the player can get out of it and makes the illusion I think of it not being a true infinite... which I don't think is the case.

I would suggest you check Magus's method for grab-breaks, it's not even the most efficent method and it works till ungodly percentages.


And if you're an effected character's main, make it your business to learn.


Something seems to be off though, could you run through your calculations again?

pss not trying to sound like a ***** also ^^ lol. You are a fun person to listen to adumbrodeus (good points! ^^)

I try.

psss what does your name mean btw??? ^^[/QUOTE]

Imperfect God in Latin.

 

[Hive]

Huh? Thrown until the pummel is needed?

Doesn't work, if you don't start pummeling immediately, the throw stales too much for the infinite to work properly, it HAS to be pummel->throw every single time. With that he just barely avoids staling it enough to make it not work, doing one without a pummel is a guarenteed failed infinite.




I would suggest you check Magus's method for grab-breaks, it's not even the most efficent method and it works till ungodly percentages.


And if you're an effected character's main, make it your business to learn.


Something seems to be off though, could you run through your calculations again?




I try.

psss what does your name mean btw??? ^^

Imperfect God in Latin.

Kwl name! ^^
Also, I'm taking your advice on practicing breaking out faster, ty ^^ Even if it is inescapable you never know if they'll mess it up

(also, for ffxi was lulu slowga'd when you did it would that even work lol? ^^ (i'm still impressed!, I've never seen past 9 ^^! I'm so jealous! :D))

There was a lot more in this post btw ^^ however I moved it a couple places down since I just ended up correcting it with what bobson said, so look there kk? ^^ I think its finalish....

 

[bobson]

First off though, DDD doesn't have to pummel every grab, as of this video
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzC8eMCi3As)
actually he racks about 72% damage before samus flies off bc of stale move decay.

That video is in training mode where stale move decay doesn't take part. Samus only flew off because he screwed up the timing.

Edit: Although I have been able to perform the infinite while missing a pummel or two accidentally much later in the chain. There's probably a point at which you can stop pummeling and add another dthrow for free before you have to pummel again.

 

[Hive]

hmm... sorry bobson! ^^ you might be right (I thought it wasn't trainingmode bc the distance on the last release seemed staled, but on second look I think you're right!

it says in the "in depth guide though on allisbrawl" that

I've noticed that as the throw gets stale (used more than 5 times"

so how much damage would that end up being then for 5 throws?

kwl, I think the answer will be a compromise betwee all of our positions

 

[bobson]

33% with staling accounted for.

Some testing reveals optimal infiniting to be five dthrows, pummel, dthrow, pummel, dthrow, pummel, dthrow, dthrow, pummel, dthrow, pummel, dthrow, dthrow, etc. You must pummel three times after the original five and then you can fit a free dthrow in for every two pummels afterward.

 

[Hive]

ok so here are the final numbers for the grab (I'm glad this finally got resolved )
ty adumbrodeus, Natch, bobson, and Ref for help ^^

Data Sheet

edit: I never want to see frame data again! @.@

Ok here goes... () also, feel free to correct me if you see anything ^^
Calculations and purely technical crap:
Warning! this gets boring, you've been warned! <.<
-DDDs pummel takes 29 frames to last.
-The amount you have to break out of is 90 + 1.7p, where p is = to the percent you are at.
-Each button you press takes off 8 from the amount that you have to get rid of. (a, b, x, y, l, r, z control stick (in a cardianl direction), flicks of the c-stick)

EDIT1: According to Bobson's data DDD can get 33% damage before he has to pummel due to staling (ty bobson!)
with the pummel (37%) this means our minimum number to break out of is 152.9 (90+1.7*37)

EDIT2: Also as natch pointed out there are 10 frames that you can buffer breakout buttons from. so this means the time that you have to break out of the grab, instead of 29 frames is 39 frames.

-So, if the amount you get rid of due to pressing buttons is larger than (90+1.7p) within the 39 frames that the pummel lasts + buffering, then you break out successfully.

-In these next cases I am assuming DDD grabs you at 0%... assuming he knows that the more damage the person has the harder it is for him to break out he will standing throw the person until a pummel is necessary. This means at 37% damage. or over 152.9 to break out


-Okay, I am assuming that a person can hit the control stick and hit buttons b, a, x, y, l, and r, comfortably. Some people have claimed they can add in the z button as well...
this should amount to 56 frames per every repetition (or 64 if you can hit the z comfortably...). I actually find this hard to do which is why I didn't add it before... sorry!
-and also, of course, i'm assuming the data I use here is correct. (given by ref) It should be objectivly verifiable, It is probably correct, however, if you have legitmately differing results then say them.

-I am assuming the max human capacity to hit a button 8 frames (agreed upon... mostly?). this roughly translates to a little over 5 times a second.
-I am also assuming that it takes an equal amount of time to release a button fully (it might be more depending on if you overshoot the button, other factors...) not including the control stick* (thanx adumbrodeus ^^).
-And also assuming that it takes no time to react or to put your hands in position, etc...
-For this next example I will also assume that you react fast enough to hit your first set of buttons on the first frame that you can of the pummel, assuming you don't miss, etc... for the max of what we could expect.

A)to beat 152.9(throws you until 33% plus 4% pummel), using 7 buttons and 8 frames to hit each button and control direction:
(-56 on first frame, full release on 9th frame (-8 frames for stick), -56 on 17th frame, full release on the 25th frame (-8 frames) -56 on the 33 frame...=a total of 184 frames deducted. >152.9
Result: Infinite starts when grabbed at 19% damage and above

B)to beat 152.9, using 8 buttons (plus z) and 8 frames to press each button and control stick direction:
(-64 on the first frame, full release on the 9th frame (-8), -64 on the 17th frame, full release on the 25th frame (-8), -64 on the 33rd frame. )= 208>152.9.
Result: Infinite starts when grabbed at 33% and above.

C) I you were somehow able to double your c-stick speed to 4 frames per direction instead of 8... I still think this is pretty unlikely.... (4 frames is REAALLY fast... ) but I'm including it so you can make your own assumptions on the human threshold.
for a) and b) this would mean that you would now be able to press the control stick 10 times instead of 5 times...) so add 40 to each of the totals.
for A) this would mean 224>152.9 Infinite starts when grabbed at 42%
for B) this would mean 248>152.9. Infinite starts when grabbed at 56%

D)Now assuming the DDD does not have frame perfect timing on his pummel (and you do for your start (10 frames before his pummel), and he messes up the pummel by 10 frames or about 1/6th of a second, what would be the result?
it will be fun to see how small changes can effect it...- the extra 10 frames means that you can now hit a full release of the buttons and and hit of the buttons one more time. this means that:
for A) it would bring your total to 248>152.9. Infinite starts when grabbed at 56%
for B) it would bring your total to 290>152.9. Infinite starts when grabbed at 81%
since c acts a little differently, it means that you will be able to hit the buttons fully once more, but for the control stick this means that you will be able hit it 3 more times.
so for C) a) infinite starts when grabbed at 89%
C) b) infinite starts when grabbed at 108%

so.... correct me if I'm wrong ^^ anyways hope all that helps
(also ty ref for most of the frame data!) (and ty bobson, natch and adumbrodeus for your help (and criticisms ^^))

Summary

The Key
at 8 frames to press each button including the control stick, and 8 frames to release (not including stick)

A) If you hit 6 buttons plus the control stick. (I can't hit the z button comfortably ) The infinite starts when grabbed at 19% and above.

B) If you hit 7 buttons plus the control stick. (plus the z button) The infinite starts when grabbed at 33% and above.

C) If you can somehow double your control stick time to 4 frames per direction (so fast!)
with conditions (except control stick):
-a) Infinite starts when grabbed at 42% and above.
-b) Infinite starts when grabbed at 56% and above.

D) If the DDD messes up his pummel by 1/6th of a seond (adding 10 frames to the breakout time).
A) Infinite starts when grabbed at 56% and above.
B) Infinite starts when grabbed at 81% and above.
C)
- a) Infinite starts when grabbed at 89% and above.
- b) Infinite starts when grabbed at 108% and above.

E) If the DDD does not throw to his full capacity and instead pummels immediately (foolish ddd ^^) this effects the percentages as well. howso? this means that instead of 37% damage before the chaingrab, he will only inflict 4%.. this means that in all of the results the infinite breakout number is 96.8 instead of 152.9.
so for conditions (see above) A) this means 60%, B)- 66%, C)a)- 75%, C)b)- 89%,
D)A)- 89%, D)B)- 114%, D)C)a)- 129%, D)C)b)- 141%



List of Assumptions Used(concrete ones to more debatable ones)

-The frame data here is correct and reliable.
-DDDs pummel lasts 29 frames.
-The break total is 90 + 1.7*for every percent.
(so 90 at 0%, and 91.7 at 1%).
-Each button, or cardinal direction of the control stick, or
flick of the c-stick you press subtracts 8 from the break
out total.
-Pressing buttons enough so that their total > then the
break out total constitutes breaking out of the grab.
-DDD can throw you until 33% from 0 until he is forced to
pummel at least once (undegenerated).
-The pummel hits for 4% damage.
-Each game frame is 1/60th of a second.
-note: The human thresholds used are the MAX of what you should expect, NOT the average.
-There are 10 frames of buffering before the pummel that contribute towards you breaking out.

-The DDD is able to do the infinite correctly and without
unecessary lag.
-The DDD throws you until it is necessary to pummel.
--The person is able to hit his/her first set of buttons on the first frame available to.

List of Human Assumptions:

-The average player can hit 6-7 button comfortably (both addressed).
The B, A, X, Y, L, R, and possible Z, as well as the control stick.
-The human capacity (max) to hit a button is 8 frames or more. Not
including any sort of reaction time.(though one example decreases this).
-To hit the control stick in one direction takes as much time
to hit a button once. (in one example we say the control stick
time is doubled though to 4 frames).
-It takes an equal amount of time to fully release a button as it
does to press one. (not including the control stick which hits
every interval since its not released).
-It takes no time to put your hand into position to hit the buttons.


edit: here is a website that tests reaction time for fun ^^ http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/index.php

 

[mc4]

Chain grabs shouldn't be banned.
Anyone who says otherwise better give a good 15 page argument as to why.

Theres tons of ways to get around chain grabbing. And some characters are un-chain grabbable.


Edit: thanks for the sticky, btw.

I also don't think they should be banned but i would like to c them abused less. ofcourse when you are playing to win and for money its a bit much to ask someone not to try to win at all cost. I also wouldn't care if it was banned or atleast limited, i don't think a 15 paged article would be necessary to explain why. http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/labels/southern california smash alliance.html
Just watch all the Dehf vs sk92 matches. imo sk92 is by far a much better falco but got gimped out of a win because of chain grabs, (yes he is chain grab crazy too). But it was crazy to see in a match that for the first time the person with 0 percent is at a disadvantage to the person with 130%. Also yes there are characters that can't be chain grabbed, but there are only a few of them, (well it depends on the character doing the chaingrabbing) and should a person be forced to pick up another character and spend hours of practice getting good with that character just because of chaingrabs? Possibly in addition to who knows how many secondaries or mains a person might already have, and i don't know if there are tons of ways to get around it, some characters can actually get around or out of it (snake with grenades) but others just have to utilize the stage (platforms) or try to acquire enough damage to be out of damage range for chaingrabs, unfortunately for most heavy characters that won't apply.

 

[Big Bear]

the only benefit of the chaingrab is the range (and in Samus' case it is a very big range), but they don't create enough of a handicap to cause a problem and are easily dodged/blocked. If anything, I think it makes the character's grab more predictable. Definately shouldn't be banned.

 

[Hive]

samus doesn't have a chaingrab... <.<

oh wait, I see what your saying, not that kind of chaingrab big bear lol... ^^

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Isn't there a thread that lists all the chaingrabs somewhere? Perhaps it should be thrown into the original post for reference purposes.

 

[Ulevo]

Isn't there a thread that lists all the chaingrabs somewhere? Perhaps it should be thrown into the original post for reference purposes.

Oh the irony.

 

[Chileno4Live]

If I recall correctly, Yoshi has a Chaingrab Release on Meta-Knight right? On what other characters does Yoshi have his chaingrab? IS there a list?

 

[Smudge]

What characters can Pit chain grab using his F-Throw (Is it that one)

I've seen it done on D3 and Snake at low percents, but is there anyone else?

 

[Coffee™]

What characters can Pit chain grab using his F-Throw (Is it that one)

I've seen it done on D3 and Snake at low percents, but is there anyone else?

Pit can chain grab D3, Snake, Fox, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Link, and to some extent Ike, Bowser Wolf, and Falco. The latter 4 can possibly get out though.

He can also chaingrab some characters for two consecutive grabs before they can get out but the 20 damage he would get from it is pretty insignificant. He also has a sort of psuedo-chain grab on Ness.

 

[weegeedisco]

Chaingrabs should only be banned if used to stall a match. Simple as that.

 

[chris the brawler]

i got chain grabed to the wall on shadow moses island by DDD once, but then he made the mistake of trying to hit me. i freed myself then i r@ped him so hard he turned his wii off and deleted me from his friend roster. ahh... theres nothing better than beating up cheap noobs.

 

[SYLAR]

If I recall correctly, Yoshi has a Chaingrab Release on Meta-Knight right? On what other characters does Yoshi have his chaingrab? IS there a list?

As a Yoshi player, I've done Chaingrabs on Bowser, DeDeDe, Captain Falcon, and Metaknight. It's most effective with Captain Falcon though.

 

[Dragoomba]

As a Yoshi player, I've done Chaingrabs on Bowser, DeDeDe, Captain Falcon, and Metaknight. It's most effective with Captain Falcon though.

I've done it on a Snake and he never got out of it. Maybe he was just stupid though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I want something to be tested.

Charizard B-Throw at low percents. I think it might be a literal chaingrab 'til about 20% on fatties, and then simply a very good mix-up (between that and an aerial, for if they jump) after that.

Perhaps it's DI-dependent, but I don't know. It's probably just a good mix-up throughout.

 

[Silent Beast]

If I recall correctly, Yoshi has a Chaingrab Release on Meta-Knight right? On what other characters does Yoshi have his chaingrab? IS there a list?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178435

 

[cutter]

Chaingrabs should only be banned if used to stall a match. Simple as that.

We already have rules to limit stalling. Boom. Problem solved.