The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Marcbri]

. The only character that both Sheik and Zelda do really bad against is Olimar.

I think you mean G&W, Olimar only destroys zelda xD

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I am quite curious to know why GW beats Sheik.

 

[zeldspazz]

I am quite curious to know why GW beats Sheik.

He doesnt, they go about even. Sheik doesnt even do that bad against Olimar once she gets inside, its still hard though.


Anyway, I took a crack at making a tier list. I actually did put a lot of time into this. This is just how I feel after doing some research and thinking about personal experiences. It might be completely wrong but, whatever, I tried.

S: <----Gonna get flamed for that >_>
A:
B: /:shiek:
C: :shiek:
D:
E:
F:
G:


^Just like, tell me if you agree or not, its my first attempt at this though so things are bound to be wrong >_>

 

[Neo Exdeath]

Diddy higher than Snake?

Peach higher than G+W?

Sonic above Zelda, who is also somehow higher than Lucario?

ICs higher than Marth and Falco?

Words fail me.

 

[zeldspazz]

Diddy higher than Snake?

I find Diddy better than Snake. *shrugs* I knew most people wouldnt agree

Peach higher than G+W?

Its like the regular tier list, characters can swap 1-2 places >_> but yes, I find Peach and GaW around the same level.

Sonic above Zelda, who is also somehow higher than Lucario?

Wtf are you talking about?

ICs higher than Marth and Falco?

Why not?

Words fail me.

Apparently not

 

[Coney]

i love how everyone's making their own tier lists, ones that are only marginally different from the one in the OP

like, why would you make an entire tier list just to bump ONE character up ONE spot

let's get real here

 

[zeldspazz]

i love how everyone's making their own tier lists, ones that are only marginally different from the one in the OP

like, why would you make an entire tier list just to bump ONE character up ONE spot

let's get real here

Cus its fun and interesting to see differing opinions, and to see how the metagame advanced in the eyes of different people. And nobody only moves 1 character...

 

[Neo Exdeath]

I find Diddy better than Snake. *shrugs* I knew most people wouldnt agree

Snake has some of the most broken attacks in the game, like his tilts and the grenade,


Its like the regular tier list, characters can swap 1-2 places >_> but yes, I find Peach and GaW around the same level.

Yes, but last time I checked, Peach was somewhat lower than G+W

Wtf are you talking about?

Zelda/Shiek is above Lucario, while Zelda is also lower on the tier list. Can you explain this?

Why not?

Marth is one of the best comboers in the game, along with having really ****ing good matchups. Falco is an awesome camper, as well as having a chaingrab. The only thing the ICs having going for them is the chaingrab.

Apparently not
Cute.

Comments in this weirdly awesome color.

 

[zeldspazz]

@Neo:

1) Diddy also has the most broken projectile in the game and an excellent combo game. He gimps better, gets KO setups better, doesnt get comboed as easily, has amazing stage control as does Snake, and has great matchups. Trust me, Snake and Diddy are extremely close, because Snake is heavier and disjointed, but Diddy is starting to seem better in my eyes

2) Last time I checked, Peach has come along in her metagame while GaW has come to a stand still, so people below him will start to pass him, not so much him drop.

3) Zelda/Sheik =/= as Zelda and Sheik both solo.

4) Iceclimbers have been doing amazing in tournaments, and they do better against MK than Marth iirc. Falco's camping is great, but PSing is so easily now, that a really good character can get through it. He also has a poor recovery, get him below the stage and he's practically done for. Iceclimbers are just really good >_>

5) You had it coming

 

[Albert.]

All at NeoExdeath:

Snake having "the most broken attacks and grenades" is a terrible arguement for why he is 2nd best in the current tier list.

Zelda-Sheik combined he thinks should be higher than lucario. Zelda is also low because she is seen as lower when seperate from Sheik. Obviously.

Your reasons for Marth and Falco being better than ICs are also insufficient.

Marth doesn't combo. He zones in sucession.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's not blasphemy, it's just really really dumb. It's only purpose is to make falcon and ganon beast.

This is seriously a 100% legitimate reason to make a new game.

I'm not even joking here. It's seriously a good reason.

If everyone played the game perfectly, no one would get hit. Ever.

Cept Ganondorf.

Lawl, if every player was perfect then nobody would be picking any character other than MK.

Just saying.

I love you.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

@Neo:

1) Diddy also has the most broken projectile in the game and an excellent combo game. He gimps better, gets KO setups better, doesnt get comboed as easily, has amazing stage control as does Snake, and has great matchups. Trust me, Snake and Diddy are extremely close, because Snake is heavier and disjointed, but Diddy is starting to seem better in my eyes

Yes, but what about Diddy's recovery? Snake's recovery > Diddy's, for the most part. Plus, being heavier is a good thing, considering that Snake is a heavyweight.

2) Last time I checked, Peach has come along in her metagame while GaW has come to a stand still, so people below him will start to pass him, not so much him drop.

I'm not so much talking about G+W, but I'm more of talking of how Peach moved up an ungodly amount of spaces.

3) Zelda/Sheik =/= as Zelda and Sheik both solo.

Thanks for the clarification.

4) Iceclimbers have been doing amazing in tournaments, and they do better against MK than Marth iirc. Falco's camping is great, but PSing is so easily now, that a really good character can get through it. He also has a poor recovery, get him below the stage and he's practically done for. Iceclimbers are just really good >_>

You still haven't explained what else they exactly have that makes them so good besides the CG.

5) You had it coming

I still don't like it.

 

[Albert.]

Snake and diddy is basically the same character LOL except Snake hits harder

 

[Neo Exdeath]

All at NeoExdeath:

Snake having "the most broken attacks and grenades" is a terrible arguement for why he is 2nd best in the current tier list.

Zelda-Sheik combined he thinks should be higher than lucario. Zelda is also low because she is seen as lower when seperate from Sheik. Obviously.

Your reasons for Marth and Falco being better than ICs are also insufficient.

Marth doesn't combo. He zones in sucession.

1) Snake has really good range and projectiles, making him a great camper. He's a heavy weight, and he moves suprisingly fast for one. He also has a good recovery.

2)I DIDN'T KNOW THAT AT THE TIME. Sorry if I'm expected to know everything.

3) Why aren't his reasons for the IC's being much higher insuffcient? Why are my reasons insuffcient?

4) Doesn't that count as comboing?

 

[zeldspazz]

Yes, but what about Diddy's recovery? Snake's recovery > Diddy's, for the most part. Plus, being heavier is a good thing, considering that Snake is a heavyweight.

I said being heavier was a plus for Snake. They both have about equal recoveries imo, Snake is dead of he loses his second jump, can he is so easily hit out of his upb. Snake cant sweetspot the ledge. He also lacks a horizontal reocvery move. Diddy's has tons of startup, but it can curve a godly amount and sweetspots the ledge. His sideb can be used as a decent horizontal recovery.

I'm not so much talking about G+W, but I'm more of talking of how Peach moved up an ungodly amount of spaces.

Peach has an excellent camping game. She racks up damage well and has an enourmous horizontal recovery, and her vertical recovery isnt too horrible. Her double jump is a great mindgame. Peach's fair autocancels when you hit the ground and is nearly unpunishable. When comparing her to Mr.GaW, their matchups are actually very similar, both having disadvantages against MK, Marth, and Snake but go even with many high tiers. Where Peach's problems lies is her lack of KO moves, but sweetspotted Usmash kills at low percentages and fairs are excellent even when half staled. They've also found some turnip ATs to enhance camping game like bonewalking (I tihnk its called?) Over all Peach is turning into quite the character

Thanks for the clarification.

No problem

You still haven't explained what else they exactly have that makes them so good besides the CG.

What's there to explain. You're making it sound like a CG is no big deal. 1 grab can equal death, and there are many ways to get that grab in despite there horrible grab range. But, I guess you could add they have a projectile that's unreflectable, a great recovery when both are present, a dsmash that does ****load of damage, etc.

I still don't like it.

Im sorry but I couldnt resist

 

[Kitamerby]

Yes, but what about Diddy's recovery? Snake's recovery > Diddy's, for the most part. Plus, being heavier is a good thing, considering that Snake is a heavyweight.

Stop listing singular statistics as a means of proving one character is better than another. Sonic's recovery is greater than Marth's in all aspects, is ungimpable, has ******** momentum cancels, and an insane dash speed allowing him to chase very well. This does not make him greater than Marth. His matchups are inferior to Marth's. On a similar note, if you're going to compare two characters on the tier list, it is probably better to compare them via matchups and overall dominance rather than by one or two statistics.

I'm not so much talking about G+W, but I'm more of talking of how Peach moved up an ungodly amount of spaces.

You probably should have been. GnW being that low was a bit of an error considering his overall matchup dominance over most of the cast compared to many of the characters above him.

You still haven't explained what else they exactly have that makes them so good besides the CG.

ICs are good. You don't need to debate that. They seem to shut down just as many people if not more than Falco, so you probably need to debate matchups, once again.

 

[zeldspazz]

The only thing Im going to say Kitamerby is that matchups against top/high tiers are more important that overall dominance.

 

[Kitamerby]

The only thing Im going to say Kitamerby is that matchups against top/high tiers are more important that overall dominance.

They are a factor in overall dominance, though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What's there to explain. You're making it sound like a CG is no big deal. 1 grab can equal death, and there are many ways to get that grab in despite there horrible grab range.

Bad spacing is usually the way that the grab is landed.
They have no setups for a grab.
No range for a grab.
Are completely dependent on having both IC's, hence why their CG's arent much of a big deal against character with good spacing.

Marth, MK, Sonic, are characters adept at separating and maintaining separation and avoiding the grabs.

Snake hurts the IC's badly as well.

So really, its entirely dependant on what characters are being played at that time.

a great recovery when both are present,

Its...actually not good.
I dont remember exactly, but I believe there was a way where you take the hit from the ^B and it cuts their recovery distance a good amount. Or just, hit them.

a dsmash that does ****load of damage, etc.

Um, why are you taking so much damage from it?
If you're taking 40%, space better.

 

[zeldspazz]

They are a factor in overall dominance, though.

Not really though. A character who has say 60:40 matchups against every high/top tier but say a 40:60 matchup with everyone in mid/low is going to be a fairly good character, because high/top tiers are the most popular in the tourney scene, where a tier list matters. Obviously that's exaggerated, but you get the meaning.

Bad spacing is usually the way that the grab is landed.
They have no setups for a grab.
No range for a grab.
Are completely dependent on having both IC's, hence why their CG's arent much of a big deal against character with good spacing.

Marth, MK, Sonic, are characters adept at separating and maintaining separation and avoiding the grabs.

Snake hurts the IC's badly as well.

So really, its entirely dependant on what characters are being played at that time.

Desynching.

blizzard->grab
squall->grab

Both are pretty viable ways. Theoretically, spacing with conquer IC, but when the game is actually being played out nobody has perfect spacing. This is why theorycrafting is so harmful.

Its...actually not good.
I dont remember exactly, but I believe there was a way where you take the hit from the ^B and it cuts their recovery distance a good amount. Or just, hit them.

That....sucks lol. Hitting them is kinda hard though, ICers shouldnt be using Upb when they have squal hammers.

Why are you getting hit by both?
its 40+ damage if all the hits land which only happens with rather bad spacing.

It's still a lot of damage if it does like 25-30 damge. The point is it racks up if you get hit by it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Some times i forget why I have SL84 on ignore...

and than he says things like

"Are completely dependent on having both IC's, hence why their CG's arent much of a big deal against character with good spacing.

Marth, MK, Sonic, are characters adept at separating and maintaining separation and avoiding the grabs."

And it all comes flooding back to me...

1. IC CGs are a big deal against everyone because of how absolutely devastating it can be off of the simplest mistake. Even letting them powershield an attack can mean death for you.

2. it doesnt say it explicitly, but it implys that Sonic is good against ICs. Which is something I can literally hysterically laugh about, at just the immense level of false that that contains.

 

[Kitamerby]

Some times i forget why I have SL84 on ignore...

1. IC CGs are a big deal against everyone because of how absolutely devastating it can be off of the simplest mistake. Even letting them powershield an attack can mean death for you.

Is it even possible to powershield with the ICs? I've heard someone say that they can, but I don't really see how, as Nana probably will get hit... <<

...If you have him on ignore, how'd you know he said that?

 

[Beren Zaiga]

He doesnt, they go about even. Sheik doesnt even do that bad against Olimar once she gets inside, its still hard though.


Anyway, I took a crack at making a tier list. I actually did put a lot of time into this. This is just how I feel after doing some research and thinking about personal experiences. It might be completely wrong but, whatever, I tried.

S: <----Gonna get flamed for that >_>
A:
B: /:shiek:
C: :shiek:
D:
E:
F:
G:


^Just like, tell me if you agree or not, its my first attempt at this though so things are bound to be wrong >_>

Bowser for D tier at least.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Desynching.

blizzard->grab
squall->grab

NONE of which is guaranteed.
You cannot land a grabb after you have blizzard'd someone unless they did not DI it properly.
Ask any professional IC main.
The character(s) cannot link into their grabs.
Simply because the vertical range is SO BAD.

Both are pretty viable ways. Theoretically, spacing with conquer IC, but when the game is actually being played out nobody has perfect spacing. This is why theorycrafting is so harmful.

I hate it when people do this, they assume, WOMG PERFECT SPACING.
NO, for one no one is talking about erfection.
Don't assume it, pisses me off, and makes the debate so much more difficult to deal with.

This is PRACTICAL theorycraft, stuff that is within human capability.
Characters liek Marth and MK and Snake, they have the tools and it obviously is humanly possibly to space properly with those characters.

This isnt WOMG PERFECT BRAWL, because then NO ONE would get hit.

Yes you hit a pet peeve!

That....sucks lol. Hitting them is kinda hard though, ICers shouldnt be using Upb when they have squal hammers.

If you hit one of the IC's I thinkt here was a way to make the IC that wasnt hit go into freefall =(

It's still a lot of damage if it does like 25-30 damge. The point is it racks up if you get hit by it.

True though I thought it did around 20?

Some times i forget why I have SL84 on ignore...

Sometimes I forget the reason for your exist.
Then again I havent found it yet so forget that former statement.

1. IC CGs are a big deal against everyone because of how absolutely devastating it can be off of the simplest mistake. Even letting them powershield an attack can mean death for you.

HOLY **** YOU COMPLETELY REITERATED THE POSTER I RESPONDED TO, THANK YOU FOR CONTRIBUTING NOTHING! AGAIN!

No DUH! a 0-death is VERY powerufl, but the issue is that many characters have the tools to deal with it and avoid the grab.
The IC's grab range is SO BAD, that even with powershielding, a number of characters can avoid the grab due to their range purely or other attributes.

2. it doesnt say it explicitly, but it implys that Sonic is good against ICs. Which is something I can literally hysterically laugh about, at just the immense level of false that that contains.

Thank you for your opinion, it shall be placed in the crapper along with such quotes as
"Yeah Diddy is 3rd best."

What is your reasoning?

Sonic does indeed do decently. he does not do well as in having an advantage, but the matchup is indeed doable for the hedgehog.
Why?

Primarily because despite the lack of a projectile, it is difficult for the IC's to deal with hat incredible speed and mobility with their inferior speed and lack of range.

Also being able to maintain your options and NOT become committed in terms of options.

If all you can do is attempt to mock me by simply reiterating past statements without supporting them with evidence. Do NOT post.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Desynching.

blizzard->grab
squall->grab

Both are pretty viable ways. Theoretically, spacing with conquer IC, but when the game is actually being played out nobody has perfect spacing. This is why theorycrafting is so harmful.

Theorycrafting is quite a dangerous topic indeed. I have come across a few MUs where both sides argue the facts so well that you get a sort of paradox. Whoever makes the first move ends up losing because the other has all the tools to punish the one who moves first. Typically these are like 50:50 match ups. I do not mean this actually happens, but if you theorize to an extreme you sometimes get that result considering brawls mechanics gives advantage to the defender.

 

[Tien2500]

He doesnt, they go about even. Sheik doesnt even do that bad against Olimar once she gets inside, its still hard though.


Anyway, I took a crack at making a tier list. I actually did put a lot of time into this. This is just how I feel after doing some research and thinking about personal experiences. It might be completely wrong but, whatever, I tried.

S: <----Gonna get flamed for that >_>
A:
B: /:shiek:
C: :shiek:
D:
E:
F:
G:


^Just like, tell me if you agree or not, its my first attempt at this though so things are bound to be wrong >_>

Charizard is not f tier. He should be at least in D. Bowser should also at least be in D.

 

[Nestec]

...If you have him on ignore, how'd you know he said that?

Because somebody quoted him.

 

[mountain_tiger]

He doesnt, they go about even. Sheik doesnt even do that bad against Olimar once she gets inside, its still hard though.


Anyway, I took a crack at making a tier list. I actually did put a lot of time into this. This is just how I feel after doing some research and thinking about personal experiences. It might be completely wrong but, whatever, I tried.

S: <----Gonna get flamed for that >_>
A:
B: /:shiek:
C: :shiek:
D:
E:
F:
G:


^Just like, tell me if you agree or not, its my first attempt at this though so things are bound to be wrong >_>

Sorry, zeldspazz, but I still find it very hard to imagine Diddy Kong being above Snake. Snake has far more kill power and more traps he can set you into. And I can't be the only one who thinks that ROB should go down? I mean, in general he has decent matchups, but his matchups against a good deal of the top tiers aren't so good. He has two 'borderline unwinnable matchups' (MK and ZSS) and a fair few 40:60 matchups as well.

I also think that ICs are a bit high. I mean, their matchups are good, but not good enough to warrant 5th place. 7th or 8th place seems more realistic. And why are Mr.G&W and Donkey Kong so low? They have more potential than that, and for Donkey Kong he'd perfectly tourney viable as long as you get a secondary for any DDD players you may encounter.

And seeing Jigglypuff that low depresses me. No offense, but I don't see her being worse than Captain Falcon or Link at all. That just baffles me. 5th or 6th from the bottom would be more like it. Finally, why oh why is Captain Falcon above Link?

Other than that, the list looks OK.

 

[zeldspazz]

Sorry, zeldspazz, but I still find it very hard to imagine Diddy Kong being above Snake. Snake has far more kill power and more traps he can set you into.

Again, I knew most people wouldnt agree. Diddy Kong has the agility, the comboing, kill setups, nanners, ground speed, and pretty good matchups. His tourney results are excellent, and he's just an all around great charater minus recovery and kill moves.

I really think Snake is a great character too though, in my eyes Diddy and Snake are extremely close to being 2/3.

And I can't be the only one who thinks that ROB should go down? I mean, in general he has decent matchups, but his matchups against a good deal of the top tiers aren't so good. He has two 'borderline unwinnable matchups' (MK and ZSS) and a fair few 40:60 matchups as well.

Now that I look at it I dunno why I put him that high too O____o

I also think that ICs are a bit high. I mean, their matchups are good, but not good enough to warrant 5th place. 7th or 8th place seems more realistic.

Why

And why are Mr.G&W and Donkey Kong so low? They have more potential than that, and for Donkey Kong he'd perfectly tourney viable as long as you get a secondary for any DDD players you may encounter.

Mr. GaW's metagame has come to a standstill. He is not dropping, people below him are passing. He is still actually fairly high on the tier list, but he has bad matchups against MK, Marth, and Snake, three extremely popular tournament characters.

I actually think DK is right where he should be, if you looked closely I only dropped DK 1 spot, (Zelda/Sheik doesnt count since they arent on the real tier list). He's good but that King DDD will never ever let him win a tournament by himself if there is a DDD present.

And seeing Jigglypuff that low depresses me. No offense, but I don't see her being worse than Captain Falcon or Link at all. That just baffles me.

I thought about bottom tier a ton, I really did. Jigglypuff......the only thing she can do is go for an approach and hope it works >_> Like Wario she never has commit to an approach, but unlike Wario she's the lightest character in the game, has absolutely no ground game, her fair is usually stale and its one of her only kill moves, she has so many useless special and ground moves, and her tournament results are just soooo awful.

Finally, why oh why is Captain Falcon above Link?

Both like Diddy and Snake are so close imo. Captain Falcon has the mobility and the offstage game with horrible priority and few safe approaches. He is also heavier, but lacks a projectile. Link has no offstage game, argueable the worst recovery in the game, and when he's no offstage his ground still isnt that great. However, he does have projectiles, but no approaches. They both suck so I dont even see a difference from CF>Link to Link>CF when you are that bad of characters.

Other than that, the list looks OK.[/quote]

 

[smashkng]

I actually think DK is right where he should be, if you looked closely I only dropped DK 1 spot, (Zelda/Sheik doesnt count since they arent on the real tier list). He's good but that King DDD will never ever let him win a tournament by himself if there is a DDD present.

But if the infinite is banned (recently there are lots of tournament that bans it), he can still beat DDD though it's still DDD advantage. So he can win a tourney by himself if he is forced to play against a DDD but the infinite and walking CG ARE banned.

 

[zeldspazz]

But if the infinite is banned (recently there are lots of tournament that bans it), he can still beat DDD though it's still DDD advantage. So he can win a tourney by himself if he is forced to play against a DDD but the infinite and walking CG ARE banned.

iirc the SBR uses the ruleset that they create when making the tier list (thought Im not completely sure) so the infinite isnt banned in that respect.

 

[smashkng]

I can't imagine how can be Diddy better when Snake's tilt and dthrow combos deals lots of damage (so does Diddy with banana combos). But Snake is a lot heavier and doesn't need to rack so much damage to kill (up tilt is too good).

Bananas doesn't make trip characters that are in the air. And for example Falco's Shine not only stops bananas from hitting him but also changes the owner to Falco. And Falco has a Glide Toss.

I think Wario is also problematic because he is an aerial character.

 

[zeldspazz]

Snake cant combo and cant approach. He's easily juggled in the air. Snake has disadvantages just like Diddy does too, why doesnt anyone touch on those? You can see his tilt coming a mile away, utilt is excellent though I must admit. Dthrow chains arent guaranteed.

After seeing DMG btw, Ive come to a conclusion that Wario is just too good at aircamping to not make top 5.

 

[smashkng]

Snake cant combo and cant approach. He's easily juggled in the air. Snake has disadvantages just like Diddy does too, why doesnt anyone touch on those? You can see his tilt coming a mile away, utilt is excellent though I must admit. Dthrow chains arent guaranteed.

After seeing DMG btw, Ive come to a conclusion that Wario is just too good at aircamping to not make top 5.

But Snake's dthrow puts the opponent in a terrible position, dthrow does 12% and if doing a ftilt it's an additional 21%. If he regrabs he can another dthrow for 12% + predicting and ftilt...
That's lots of damage.

May Snake be unable to approach, but grenades are excellent at forcing to be approached unlike Zelda who Din is useless for camping or forcing to approach.

But I admit Snake is bad in the air due all having long ending and landing lag (but his aerials are still really powerful and fair is a very powerful spike, sourspot can do some nice KO as well).

 

[mountain_tiger]

Again, I knew most people wouldnt agree. Diddy Kong has the agility, the comboing, kill setups, nanners, ground speed, and pretty good matchups. His tourney results are excellent, and he's just an all around great charater minus recovery and kill moves.

I really think Snake is a great character too though, in my eyes Diddy and Snake are extremely close to being 2/3.

Well, I think that Snake's camping, mindgames and insane kill ability out trumps that stuff, but I can see where you're coming from.

Now that I look at it I dunno why I put him that high too O____o

Don't get me wrong, ROB is a good character. Just not THAT good.

Why

The reason I think the ICs should be 7th or so rather than 4th or 5th is because they have various matchups where they don't do so well. They do very badly against Snake (something like 35:65 IIRC), and there are a number of mid tier characters they don't do too well against (like Peach). Plus they get screwed over if Nana dies.

Mr. GaW's metagame has come to a standstill. He is not dropping, people below him are passing. He is still actually fairly high on the tier list, but he has bad matchups against MK, Marth, and Snake, three extremely popular tournament characters.

So does ROB.... Though fair enough about his metagame not advancing.

I actually think DK is right where he should be, if you looked closely I only dropped DK 1 spot, (Zelda/Sheik doesnt count since they arent on the real tier list). He's good but that King DDD will never ever let him win a tournament by himself if there is a DDD present.

I also think that DK is too low on the current tier list. He should be 14th/15th IMO. I mean, he got buffed considerably from Melee, yet the tier list doesn't reflect that at all. Outside of DDD (and also Wario, to a lesser extent), DK's matchups are overall pretty good. He has great spacing ability with his fast, long ranged tilts, fantastic punishing tools (DSmash, anyone?), a good grab game and lots of kill power.

I thought about bottom tier a ton, I really did. Jigglypuff......the only thing she can do is go for an approach and hope it works >_> Like Wario she never has commit to an approach, but unlike Wario she's the lightest character in the game, has absolutely no ground game, her fair is usually stale and its one of her only kill moves, she has so many useless special and ground moves, and her tournament results are just soooo awful.

Unfortunately, you're right about Jigglypuff being an inferior Wario. But she's still better than people like Captain Falcon, Link and IMO Samus as well. She can gimp recoveries really well, her matchups against characters like MK and DDD are considerably better than other bottom tiers (though there are still a number of characters that screw her over....) and Fair is easy to refresh. Also, although her ground game is mostly crap, it has some benefits. UTilt is a decent kill move (it kills 1% earlier than her USmash ), dash attack makes a nice back-up if you're desperate, and her grab game is fairly decent as well.

Both like Diddy and Snake are so close imo. Captain Falcon has the mobility and the offstage game with horrible priority and few safe approaches. He is also heavier, but lacks a projectile. Link has no offstage game, argueable the worst recovery in the game, and when he's no offstage his ground still isnt that great. However, he does have projectiles, but no approaches. They both suck so I dont even see a difference from CF>Link to Link>CF when you are that bad of characters.

Link's matchups are consdierably better than Captain Falcon's, in that he at least has a couple that are in his favour. As said, Link doesn't always have to approach due to his projectiles, whereas almost everyone can force Captain Falcon to approach. Captain Falcon's extra weight isn't all that big a difference (it adds around 10% extra to his survivability), and although his recovery is definitely better than Link's, it's still predictable and easy to edgehog. Not to mention most of Link's attacks have more range and priority. Not to mention that Link is currently doing better in tournaments.

 

[zeldspazz]

But Snake's dthrow puts the opponent in a terrible position, dthrow does 12% and if doing a ftilt it's an additional 21%. If he regrabs he can another dthrow for 12% + predicting and ftilt...
That's lots of damage.

Diddy racks damage better than Snake does imo. Banana's and dash attack/grab strings can be guaranteed and racks it big. Also Snake has no guaranteed kill setups, unlike Diddy. Thats a huge plus for Diddy since he has low power.

May Snake be unable to approach, but grenades are excellent at forcing to be approached unlike Zelda who Din is useless for camping or forcing to approach.

Where the **** did this come from o_____o Did I miss something, because Im pretty sure Zelda and Dins was never intended to come up in this conversation.

The reason I think the ICs should be 7th or so rather than 4th or 5th is because they have various matchups where they don't do so well. They do very badly against Snake (something like 35:65 IIRC), and there are a number of mid tier characters they don't do too well against (like Peach). Plus they get screwed over if Nana dies.

I see where you are coming from, but you cant deny the fact that they are doing amazing in tourney's atm, and I know that people are going to argue aginst the CG being not enough to be top 5, but it is. A one grab death is just too good, even if it's hard to get. Also, mid tier disadvantages dont mean as much as high tier disadvantages.

I also think that DK is too low on the current tier list. He should be 14th/15th IMO. I mean, he got buffed considerably from Melee, yet the tier list doesn't reflect that at all. Outside of DDD (and also Wario, to a lesser extent), DK's matchups are overall pretty good. He has great spacing ability with his fast, long ranged tilts, fantastic punishing tools (DSmash, anyone?), a good grab game and lots of kill power.

It might be true, but its not being reflected. Also, almost everyone above him have better matchups, I put him near Sheik because Sheik and DK have similar matchup numbers surprisingly. I can see DK above Sheik maybe, but not much higher on my list.

Unfortunately, you're right about Jigglypuff being an inferior Wario. But she's still better than people like Captain Falcon, Link and IMO Samus as well. She can gimp recoveries really well, her matchups against characters like MK and DDD are considerably better than other bottom tiers (though there are still a number of characters that screw her over....) and Fair is easy to refresh. Also, although her ground game is mostly crap, it has some benefits. UTilt is a decent kill move (it kills 1% earlier than her USmash ), dash attack makes a nice back-up if you're desperate, and her grab game is fairly decent as well.

How do you refresh Jigg's fair easily? Also, if all you can fall back on for benefits in ground game is utilt and dash attack, thats pretty horrid. Her matchups I can see though, you're right in that respect. Too bad her tournament results arent showing it.

Link's matchups are consdierably better than Captain Falcon's, in that he at least has a couple that are in his favour. As said, Link doesn't always have to approach due to his projectiles, whereas almost everyone can force Captain Falcon to approach. Captain Falcon's extra weight isn't all that big a difference (it adds around 10% extra to his survivability), and although his recovery is definitely better than Link's, it's still predictable and easy to edgehog. Not to mention most of Link's attacks have more range and priority. Not to mention that Link is currently doing better in tournaments.

Link's advantageous matchups are irrelevant cus they are mostly lower tiered. Any extra weight is a good thing, and Im pretty sure link doesnt force many approaches with his projectiles. CF has a more versatile recovery btw, up-b and side-b both getting him to the stage. More range and priority is true, and the tourney results are true, but they are both extremely close in tourney results where I dont think it makes much of a difference.

 

[smashkng]

Snake doesn't need set ups to kill reliably, because he has some of the best KO moves (in power and how easy to it's land them) in the game. Snake has much less trouble killing than Diddy.
Diddy isn't neccessarily better than Snake for racking up damage faster because Snake still has much more kill power and a ton more weight.

 

[zeldspazz]

Snake doesn't need set ups to kill reliably, because he has some of the best KO moves (in power and how easy to it's land them) in the game. Snake has much less trouble killing than Diddy.
Diddy isn't neccessarily better than Snake for racking up damage faster because Snake still has much more kill power and a ton more weight.

How are you landing those KO moves without setups?

Diddy might be better than Snake not only because of damage racking >_> Diddy has KO setups, broken projectile, dash attack combos, aerial and ground game (Snake has practicaly no air game), great mobility, racks damage fast, etc. There are other reasons behind what Im thinking >_>

 

[infomon]

How are you landing those KO moves without setups?

because his Utilt is stupid big

 

[aeghrur]

Who needs a kill set up when you have a 6 frame move with the range of Marth's sword that kills around 110%?