The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Ray_Kalm]

Who needs a kill set up when you have a 6 frame move with the range of Marth's sword that kills around 110%?

That move is used for damaging purposes and should never kill you.

Eh, I'm starting to doubt that Snake is the second best myself now. If you know what's coming, he should almost never be killing you.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I see where you are coming from, but you cant deny the fact that they are doing amazing in tourney's atm, and I know that people are going to argue aginst the CG being not enough to be top 5, but it is. A one grab death is just too good, even if it's hard to get. Also, mid tier disadvantages dont mean as much as high tier disadvantages.

True, their current tourney results are pretty **** impressive. And also, in a fair few matchups their desyncing tactics are more useful than their death grab (Wario is a prime example of this). If the only move they hd was their death grab, they'd be crap.

It might be true, but its not being reflected. Also, almost everyone above him have better matchups, I put him near Sheik because Sheik and DK have similar matchup numbers surprisingly. I can see DK above Sheik maybe, but not much higher on my list.

Peach, who you put above DK, IMO is definitely NOT better than him. Peach does better against DDD, Olimar, Wario and Diddy, whereas Dk does better against MK, Snake and Marth. Although Peach has more matchups that are even or advantaged, the matchups that DK does do better in are more common in tourneys.

How do you refresh Jigg's fair easily? Also, if all you can fall back on for benefits in ground game is utilt and dash attack, thats pretty horrid. Her matchups I can see though, you're right in that respect. Too bad her tournament results arent showing it.

The easiest way to refresh moves is to grab and pummel (and this applies to everyone in the game, not just Jiggly). And since Jiggly has a surprisingly big grab range, it's not too hard to get grabs in occasionally). Besides, when playing as her you should be staling Bair or Uair as much as possible for combos.

Link's advantageous matchups are irrelevant cus they are mostly lower tiered. Any extra weight is a good thing, and Im pretty sure link doesnt force many approaches with his projectiles. CF has a more versatile recovery btw, up-b and side-b both getting him to the stage. More range and priority is true, and the tourney results are true, but they are both extremely close in tourney results where I dont think it makes much of a difference.

Actually when regarding low tiers I wouldn't say they're irrelevant at all. Since neither of them have much chance of winning a tourney, then you may as well look at characters that they do stand a chance against. True, Link doesn't force many approaches, but he does force some, which is better than Captain Falcon can say. Also, their options are pretty similar. Captain Falcon has side B and up B; Link has up B and Zair. And that's another thing: Link has a Zair for spacing and comboing, which Falcon doesnt' have.

All in all, Link > Captain Falcon.

 

[aeghrur]

That move is used for damaging purposes and should never kill you.

Eh, I'm starting to doubt that Snake is the second best myself now. If you know what's coming, he should almost never be killing you.

What?
What snake uses utilt to damage?
Ftilt is for damage...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

What?
What snake uses utilt to damage?
Ftilt is for damage...

Yeah, I was referring to FTilt.

 

[smashkng]

Yeah, I was referring to FTilt.

Snake's Up tilt is a 6 frame move. The knee ftilt is a 4 frame move.

 

[Justblaze647]

Eh, I'm starting to doubt that Snake is the second best myself now. If you know what's coming, he should almost never be killing you.

There's a difference between knowing whats coming next, and being able to do anything about it. Snake is the kind of character that trades hits with you and sends you flying twice as far, with twice as much damage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There's a difference between knowing whats coming next, and being able to do anything about it. Snake is the kind of character that trades hits with you and sends you flying twice as far, with twice as much damage.

Oi.

You know that the ICs are going to CG you to death once they land one grab, and you know Diddy Kong is going to spam his bananas all over the place, and you know Wario is going to aircamp.

But what can you do about it?

 

[Justblaze647]

Uhh counterpick characters and stages until you find an advantage. For instance take the IC's to Red Halberd, choose a character such as G&W or maybe Wario, and DON'T GET GRABBED. Diddy's bananas aren't nearly as complicated to deal with. You find a reflector, and/or find the guts to catch his lameness with your bare hands once he throws it at you, and use his trip factor against him. If Wario is air camping, then you pick Falco and laser spam him to force an approach.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Red Halberd?

ICs can still grab. Even with those two characters, it's going to happen at least once.

Wario planking > Falco's laser.

Diddy Kong is the best at using bananas, and has one of the shortest tripping animations. The Diddy play is also more likely to know how to use them correctly, particularly if you've never used Diddy, or don't know how to use the bananas to your advantage.

 

[Justblaze647]

Red Halberd?

Yes. Big stage, constantly shifting. Lots of room to run away, even more room to separate popo and nana.

ICs can still grab. Even with those two characters, it's going to happen at least once.

One Grab =/= Entire Match

Wario planking > Falco's laser.

Explain plz

Diddy Kong is the best at using bananas, and has one of the shortest tripping animations. The Diddy play is also more likely to know how to use them correctly, particularly if you've never used Diddy, or don't know how to use the bananas to your advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyqbz60aZw&feature=channel_page

 

[Browny]

That move is used for damaging purposes and should never kill you.

Eh, I'm starting to doubt that Snake is the second best myself now. If you know what's coming, he should almost never be killing you.

lol. Snakes KO moves

jab ftilt utilt dtilt uair nair fair dair bair fsmash usmash dsmash dashattack neutralb sideb downb

it gets a little difficult to 'know what's coming' when he has 16 or so moves which can KO <150% when fresh, majority <120.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

...It's just Halberd, not Red Halberd.

I never said it would win the match, my statement before was "Once you get grabbed, the ICs will CG you to death". I never said they would do it three times guaranteed. Just that it would occur at least once.

Falco laser has to be above the stage. Wario planking would be under the stage. Hence planking > laser.

Custom Stage =/= Good example obviously. Show me an in tournament example.

 

[Justblaze647]

You are missing the point I am trying to illustrate. The stage being played on aside, observe how Diddy's bananas are used against him.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

lol. Snakes KO moves

jab ftilt utilt dtilt uair nair fair dair bair fsmash usmash dsmash dashattack neutralb sideb downb

it gets a little difficult to 'know what's coming' when he has 16 or so moves which can KO <150% when fresh, majority <120.

They're all easy to see coming. Snake kills at around 105% averagely, around that percent is when you should pay attention to his next move and punish him accordingly. The thing about Snake is, he can't kill you below his average killing percent, the majority of the characters in the upper part of the tier list (S - B) are considered good just because they're able to kill at percents below their killing point by gimping, or in other ways. Snake can't really do that, he has a 'certain average percent' when he could try killing his opponent, and even then, that become obvious.

I'm in no way saying Snake's a bad character, he's easily S Tier, but I do think that he should be bumped down a spot.

 

[Clai]

Bad spacing is usually the way that the grab is landed.
They have no setups for a grab.
No range for a grab.
Are completely dependent on having both IC's, hence why their CG's arent much of a big deal against character with good spacing.

The Ice Climbers do have Hylian's dash dysync (using the difference in their dash start-up times to have Nana do an attack while Popo's dashing). In that sense, if Nana does an Ice Block while Popo's dashing, the ice block can be a setup into their grabs. Not very practical, but it's a set-up nonetheless.

And lol at Snake not being the second-best character in the game. With grenade tricks, C4's and mines, grab set-ups, frame-4 F-tilt with huge range, Snake just has a stupid amount of options available to him. If you can figure out what the Snake player is going to do next, the Snake player's doing something wrong.

MK and Snake are easily a tier above everyone else.

 

[Justblaze647]

Here now, I know I've been right about this since the games release, but no one wanted to heed my opinion. Just like how I was saying since the game's conception that WAS NOT the worst character in the game, but everyone was feeling so butt hurt because he got nerfed. So look, I'm going to present some facts (slightly influenced by my personal opinion) and show SWF why Jiggz is the worst character in brawl.

On the ground, Jiggz is perhaps the worst excuse for a smash character ever. She has very little to no range, less speed, and ridiculously low knockback/power. Every one of her tilts is only about half a step above useless, and all are impossible to hit a reasonably intelligent opponent with. Dash attack might as well not even be there. Same thing with the jab. I personally think her down smash is her best one, but it doesnt matter because none of her smashes hit either. They are too slow and have no range. Rollout on the ground is like screaming at your opponent to jump, or shield grab. Pound is easily her best move, on the ground or in the air, but on the ground it moves slower and doesn't have as much range to it. Then there's Sing and Rest. Nuff said.

In the air, well, she's better here than on the ground. Her aerial mobility is above average, but the fact that the range of all of her moves is so poor forces her into a dangerous position every time she wants to deal damage. Not to mention the fact that she's not very good at racking up damage. dair is her best bet for this in the air, followed closely by bair. Fair "should" be the kill move in any given situation. Uair is also nothing special. Rollout is better in the air than on the ground, and can produce kills at reasonable percent, but is still EXTREMELY situational. Pound is also better in the air, but its more of a juggle set up than a kill set up.Then there's Sing and Rest. Nuff said.

Also, I realize this is not a tier list, nor is it meant to be referred to as such, but...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Why is it that a character, who is not the worst character in the game, performs worse than any other character in a tournament setting, which is supposed to assume the highest level of play? Isn't that what the tier list is supposed to reflect, along with character interactions? I am not so clear on this, but what kind of MU's does jiggz take an advantage in? and why/how?

I said all of that to say this... Jiggz sux lol

What do you guys think?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What do you guys think?

Jiggs is certainly bad, but I still think that the air game she has more than makes up for her ground game. CF I certainly do not see being the below ganon though.

They're all easy to see coming. Snake kills at around 105% averagely, around that percent is when you should pay attention to his next move and punish him accordingly. The thing about Snake is, he can't kill you below his average killing percent, the majority of the characters in the upper part of the tier list (S - B) are considered good just because they're able to kill at percents below their killing point by gimping, or in other ways. Snake can't really do that, he has a 'certain average percent' when he could try killing his opponent, and even then, that become obvious.

I'm in no way saying Snake's a bad character, he's easily S Tier, but I do think that he should be bumped down a spot.

^This

Ftilt will typically be so overused that it's power will be greatly diminshed. It's not killing anyone at 100%.

A mine has to be fully charaged to kill at those percents. If not, it kills as at ~150% to most people. With a move that needs like a good 2-3 seconds to charge and can easily be avoided and detonated safely, it will not be seeing too many kills often.

The same goes for the C4 in how often it will kill. It can kill around 120% for sure on pretty much every character in the game. Although, it requires element of surprise, frame trap or prediction to get it to work right.

Snake's Jab can kill at a 100%, but it needs to be right next to the edge of a stage pretty much and needs

Dtilt... Comparision of utilt and dtilt strength is stupid. Dtilt KOs at percents roughtly 50% higher than what Utilt can KO at.

His aerials are typically all moves that can be avoided easily. Airdodging gives his enemies time for that.

Fsmash is easily forgotten. It comes out on frame 40. There are virtually no situations where fsmash could ever punish the ending lag of an attack, and therefore requires prediction and the opponents error to get hit by.

Usmash shouldn't ever be killing. I am not sure why, but even at a 140% it never seems to kill anyone on the ground, not unless they are at the top of the screen whey they get hit by it.

And the list just goes on.

But I do have to disagree on one part. Snake does have potiential to get early gimps below KO percents. But it really requires him to get the Fair, Nair or Bair to work.

 

[SuSa]

They're all easy to see coming. Snake kills at around 105% averagely, around that percent is when you should pay attention to his next move and punish him accordingly. The thing about Snake is, he can't kill you below his average killing percent, the majority of the characters in the upper part of the tier list (S - B) are considered good just because they're able to kill at percents below their killing point by gimping, or in other ways. Snake can't really do that, he has a 'certain average percent' when he could try killing his opponent, and even then, that become obvious.

I'm in no way saying Snake's a bad character, he's easily S Tier, but I do think that he should be bumped down a spot.

Utilt happens just before average human reaction time IIRC. and much like DDD's grab (both are frame 6, both have stupidly long range) you will get hit by it, whether or not you like it. (It's like telling a Ganon main "don't get grabbed" by DDD. You know they will. Now take that same thing, and say "don't get utilted". You know they will)

Ftilt is faster then human reaction time.

On the people jab actually works on, Jab is faster then human reaction time,

Contrary to popular belief, Snake can actually gimp. We just do it in different ways. Rather then forcing you to not recover, we hit you with an overpowered aerial that can KO you at about 70% offstage. Oh, and bair can gimp when sourspotted sometimes. I haven't figured out how/why

However, Snake doesn't need to gimp you if you take 30-40% just trying to return to the stage anyways, and deals 15-20% with every single one of his moves. (And dthrow+ftilt = 32%~) you'll be in KO %'s before you know it.

 

[smashkng]

Snake can dthrow to up tilt in edge of stages. Is the regrab with dthrow on edge of stages legit?

 

[SuSa]

People just need to FF airdodge/do a quick aerial.

We have a -1 frame advantage from dthrow on stage, not sure if that changes off stage. I can't remember our grab data, so our 6 frame utilt is 7 frames now. And I don't even think it's guarenteed, it's just really hard to avoid. <_<

 

[Kewkky]

People just need to FF airdodge/do a quick aerial.

We have a -1 frame advantage from dthrow on stage, not sure if that changes off stage. I can't remember our grab data, so our 6 frame utilt is 7 frames now. And I don't even think it's guarenteed, it's just really hard to avoid. <_<

Exactly what I wanted to see. People don't seem to realize airdodging is a blessing at times in this game, and not just a way to get through juggles.

 

[Clai]

Jiggz is perhaps the worst excuse for a smash character ever.

Nothing more needs to be said [Quoting out of context for the win].

As for Snake, his projectiles and mines alone are going to create far more disadvantageous situations for the other person than any other character in the game. With proper control of the stage, Snake will easily land U-tilts whenever he feels like killing someone- either that or rack up more damage with grenades/f-tilts/whatever, but Snake is still controlling the momentum and not getting hit.

 

[Luigi player]

Mewtwo should've been in Brawl instead of Jiggs...

 

[Justblaze647]

Mewtwo should've been in Brawl instead of Jiggs...

Actually, I would've preferred Doc

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

People just need to FF airdodge/do a quick aerial.

We have a -1 frame advantage from dthrow on stage, not sure if that changes off stage. I can't remember our grab data, so our 6 frame utilt is 7 frames now. And I don't even think it's guarenteed, it's just really hard to avoid. <_<

Pretty sure it's a -1 advantage offstage as well, nothing really changes.

 

[SuSa]

It might be a larger frame disadvantage is what I was thinking, but I guess you are right. :s

 

[Kewkky]

Pretty sure it's a -1 advantage offstage as well, nothing really changes.

Characters can airdodge the utilt offstage. As soon as Snake finishes the dthrow, characters are falling and able to do anything. Utilt has a 6-frame startup, and I don't think airdodges take longer than 6 frames to start the invincibility frames.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Jiggs is certainly bad, but I still think that the air game she has more than makes up for her ground game. CF I certainly do not see being the below ganon though.



^This

Ftilt will typically be so overused that it's power will be greatly diminshed. It's not killing anyone at 100%.

A mine has to be fully charaged to kill at those percents. If not, it kills as at ~150% to most people. With a move that needs like a good 2-3 seconds to charge and can easily be avoided and detonated safely, it will not be seeing too many kills often.

The same goes for the C4 in how often it will kill. It can kill around 120% for sure on pretty much every character in the game. Although, it requires element of surprise, frame trap or prediction to get it to work right.

Snake's Jab can kill at a 100%, but it needs to be right next to the edge of a stage pretty much and needs

Dtilt... Comparision of utilt and dtilt strength is stupid. Dtilt KOs at percents roughtly 50% higher than what Utilt can KO at.

His aerials are typically all moves that can be avoided easily. Airdodging gives his enemies time for that.

Fsmash is easily forgotten. It comes out on frame 40. There are virtually no situations where fsmash could ever punish the ending lag of an attack, and therefore requires prediction and the opponents error to get hit by.

Usmash shouldn't ever be killing. I am not sure why, but even at a 140% it never seems to kill anyone on the ground, not unless they are at the top of the screen whey they get hit by it.

And the list just goes on.

But I do have to disagree on one part. Snake does have potiential to get early gimps below KO percents. But it really requires him to get the Fair, Nair or Bair to work.

Umm... no, Snake can gimp. F-air spike. Ally showed Snake players they can gimp. Then there is C4 stage spike. F-smash allow kills at ridicuously low %. Don't say F-smash is impossible to hit with in a high competitive match, because it is. HRNut Snake KOed Seibrik MK with it when MK was only at 20% on the edge of smashville. Snake has no problem gimping... *facepalms*

 

[SuSa]

Fair can spike, it's risky. It's more or less a shock factor that you are even using it that makes it work.

Stage spikes are sooo unreliable to the point of where I'd laugh if I got one. Then again, I think I'm one of the few players that consistantly techs any form of stage spikes. (Lived to 287% against Tyrant's MK on FD due to it... he kept up-B'ing me, dairing me, nairing me. And I'd just tech it...) I also plan to make a tech highlight video. (FYI: I tech something that would've killed me otherwise, on my last stock, and I win only because of that tech)

Also it's so rare to hit with, that it isn't a consistent gimp factor. Like let's say... MK's dair on most of the cast.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Snake has no problem gimping... *facepalms*

No problem gimping? I'd say he has more trouble gimping than any other char.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Fair can spike, it's risky. It's more or less a shock factor that you are even using it that makes it work.

Stage spikes are sooo unreliable to the point of where I'd laugh if I got one. Then again, I think I'm one of the few players that consistantly techs any form of stage spikes. (Lived to 287% against Tyrant's MK on FD due to it... he kept up-B'ing me, dairing me, nairing me. And I'd just tech it...) I also plan to make a tech highlight video. (FYI: I tech something that would've killed me otherwise, on my last stock, and I win only because of that tech)

Also it's so rare to hit with, that it isn't a consistent gimp factor. Like let's say... MK's dair on most of the cast.

MK is a better gimper than Snake. And F-air spike doesn't always mean it's risky. Ally didn't even have to take a risk to F-air spike M2K MK on delfino, because of the water. And nobody is perfect, nobody is going to be teching 100% of the time. And it's probably only a 1 time thing that you lived to 287%, that may not ever happen again.
Snake can also kill earlier than Up-tilt KO %. D-air kills uber early, N-air kills early, Up-air kills early on low ceilings, B-air kills early off stage, or B-air to stage spike. Not everyone is going to react on time to tech it all the time especially if its unexpected, which it is unexpected, if you expected it earlier you would of dodged the B-air that lead into a stage spike.

 

[SuSa]

I constantly live to 230% + , especially when getting stage spiked repeatingly. Also my highest living tourney % was around 340%

Water is the exception, so what. We're good at gimping on... Delfino? And Pirate Ship if it's legal?

I look for stage spikes, and if it puts me into a better position then dodging, I'll just take the hit and tech it.

Dair and nair depend. Our dair KO %'s were taken FROM THE EDGE of the stage, and KO'd 20-30%~ earlier then utilt, WITH NO DI.

Nair isn't a great killer unless off stage and close to the death zone. Also we risk getting gimped ourselves since it doesn't end for a while

 

[Kewkky]

Nair isn't a great killer unless off stage and close to the death zone. Also we risk getting gimped ourselves since it doesn't end for a while

And even against grounded approaches, since there are too many disjoints that beat the 4 non-lingering hitboxes... It's really just an anti-air move with small uses on the ground.

 

[Tien2500]

Snake is definitely in the bottom fifth of the cast at least in terms of gimping/offstgae kills. Honestly I can't think off the top of my head of a character who does it worse... Eh fox maybe?

 

[DMG]

Fox can use Shine to Edgeguard/Gimp, but it isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Kewkky]

Fox can use Shine to Edgeguard/Gimp, but it isn't that big of a deal.

... Well ****. Less than 2 mins and you already sniped his statement.

 

[SuSa]

I would think Ike is worse at gimping then Snake...

Although I bet you fair/bair make decent gimp moves compared to anything Snake has.

****, walk off dairs..

So, I think I owned my own statement.

Yah, I can't think of anyone who does worse then Snake.

 

[Palpi]

Walk of dairs might work once in a set.

Once people know where the dair lands, they will adjust their recovery accordingly. Unless it like... a space animal.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Walk of dairs might work once in a set.

Once people know where the dair lands, they will adjust their recovery accordingly. Unless it like... a space animal.

Fair is still good. Walk-off Uair still ***** Airdodges and can lead to potential stage spikes. Bair is still fun. Counter can work on some recoveries. Aetherspiking is still good.

Ya, we do better then Snake.

 

[Browny]

Snakes utilt when done from the ledge should count as an off-stage KO move lmao