The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Gindler]

Umm... no, Snake can gimp. F-air spike. Ally showed Snake players they can gimp. Then there is C4 stage spike. F-smash allow kills at ridicuously low %. Don't say F-smash is impossible to hit with in a high competitive match, because it is. HRNut Snake KOed Seibrik MK with it when MK was only at 20% on the edge of smashville. Snake has no problem gimping... *facepalms*

I wouldn't call a spike a gimp. I don't spike someone and go, ooohhhhhh snap you just got gimped. All of snakes other aerials have too much knockback and would put someone in the blast zone (blast zone kill=/=gimp), stage spike is a stage spike. I have seen his sourspotted Bair gimp falcos, wolfs, warios, characters with awful UpB recoveries. I guess it depends on someones definition of a gimp.

 

[smashkng]

AiB Link boards says it's not so dangerous to get offstage against Snake. Which isn't true. Link's recovery is so horrible that even Snake can gimp him (for example, back air does very well to gimp him because of it's priority and it's easy to fair spike him out of his up b).

 

[saviorslegacy]

I am quite curious to know why GW beats Sheik.

That is one of the few match ups that I say we have the dis-advantage.
Before I go into detail about that I want to say that the reason why I think Sheik has few bd match ups is that she is flexible enough to exploit every weakness that almost every character has.

Anyways....
The reason why she has trouble with him is the turtle doesn't like her.
She has trouble gimping him if he avoids the ledge, she has trouble spacing him, he is in the air a lot and has good pressuring tools.
What really hurts us is we can't space Bair the effective way.
Once you remove her Bair spacing it really hurts her.
However, she is fast enough to still punish him like crazy.

So the idea is to get in close and remain close as long s possible.
The cool thing is we can make him close in some by using Needle's and if he goes to BF he is asking for trouble since the platforms give us more lee-way. G&W can use them too, but we are more efficient than he is.

 

[4nace]

4nace's Revised Tier List. Trying to make it smaller tiers and put characters where they are competitive with each other.

S Tier
1.) Metaknight (+0)
2.) Snake (+0)

A Tier
3.) Diddy Kong (+2)
4.) Ice Climbers (+7)
5.) Wario (-2)
6.) Falco (-2)
7.) Marth (+0)
8.) King Dedede (-2)
9.) Olimar (+1)

B Tier
10.) Game and Watch (-2)
11.) Pikachu (-2)
12.) Kirby (+1)
13.) R.O.B. (-1)
14.) Lucario (+0)
15.) Donkey Kong (+3)
16.) Zero-Suit Samus (-1)

C Tier
17.) Peach (+2)
18.) Toon Link (-2)
19.) Pit (-2)
20.) :shiek: Shiek (+4)
21.) Fox (+0)
22.) Sonic (+1)
23.) Luigi (-3)

D Tier
24.) Wolf (-2)
25.) Pokemon Trainer (+2)
26.) Bowser (-1)
27.) Ike (+1)
28.) Mario (+2)
29.) Zelda (-3)
30.) Lucas (-1)

E Tier
31.) Ness (+0)
32.) Yoshi (+0)
33.) Jigglypuff (+1)
34.) Samus (-1)
35.) Captain Falcon (+0)
36.) Link (+0)
37.) Ganondorf (+0)

Let me know what you think. This is based off alot of watching videos and my play experience as well as reading the boards.

 

[Browny]

I think...

post a list that is not based off reading the boards. Then I'll think about it a bit more

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

4nace

not that bad but i would put diddy in s tier, move the ic's down 1-3 spots, move link up 1, switch rob and kirby, toon link should not be falling hes been on the rise, sheik down to wolf i am not sure about looks like lugie should be a little higher but that whole section is pretty close maybe wolf should be in same tier as them, not sure about ike's spot not saying its wrong just not sure, maybe the bottom 3 should still be in f tier and not in E.

its pretty good despite what i would change which are all minor changes anyway i would say not bad

 

[4nace]

Thanks for the read NAGACE

Yea, i was thinking of moving ICs past Wario but I see Falco and Marth as pretty even characters in both match-up advantages/disadvantages and options. So I didn't want to put ICs between them.

Wolf confuses me all the time. On paper, he is a pretty amazing character with an easy to understand playstyle and great kill moves. However, in actual matches, he usually gets gimped pretty early and only really wins if he can camp well with his blaster. I like wolf and think he's great, but I also think it would be cool if he got some low tier tournament experience.

Originally I had Toon Link and Donkey Kong switched, but I decided that I liked Donky Kong more and since many of the tournaments have been banning infinities, his main weakness (DDD) is not as prevalent in tournies as Toon Link's (Metaknight lol)

But yea, the ordering of my C Tier could use a bit of work, what I was going for is that all the tiers could have good games against other members of the tiers (barring terrible match-ups such as Shiek-Fox and Falco-DDD)

But I agree that the bottom 3 should be a new tier, its just that I had the groups of 7 going and wanted to finish them haha.

 

[Narigo1]

ike dominates and places high in low tier tourneys. So why do people think he is a E Tier character

 

[4nace]

I guess because in regular tournaments, he does about as well as the characters around him. He does have pretty good match-ups versus the low tier characters, but so do Jigglypuff and Zelda. That doesn't mean they should be in C tier.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i agree that dk is very good but since its not a official rule that ddd cant inf grab him you still need to count it. without the inf dk would in my opinion be much higher on the list

 

[Nefarious B]

Because I love to post these, and I want to hear what people have to say:

S: Characters that will consistently win large tournies
MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
Falco
ICs

A: Characters that will be able to consistently place well at nationals and win regionals
Marth
DDD
Pikachu
Olimar
ZSS
Lucario

B: Characters that can do well as well like A tier but require an extraordinary player
GaW
ROB
Toon Link
Kirby
DK
Pit
Sheik
Peach

C: Edge of Viability tournie wise
Wolf
Fox
Luigi
Bowser
PT
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness
Mario

D: Bad but have some solid qualities
Lucas
Ike
Link
Zelda


E: Badly designed
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jiggs
Ganondorf

 

[Ripple]

Because I love to post these, and I want to hear what people have to say:

S: Characters that will consistently win large tournies
MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
Falco
ICs

A: Characters that will be able to consistently place well at nationals and win regionals
Marth
DDD
Pikachu
Olimar
ZSS
Lucario

B: Characters that can do well as well like A tier but require an extraordinary player
GaW
ROB
Toon Link
Kirby
DK
Pit
Sheik
Peach

C: Edge of Viability tournie wise
Wolf
Fox
Luigi
Bowser
PT
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness
Mario

D: Bad but have some solid qualities
Lucas
Ike
Link
Zelda


E: Badly designed
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jiggs
Ganondorf

this is actually one of the best tier lists I've seen so far. the only changes would be Lucario over ZSS, Peach above Sheik, luigi above fox and wolf, and D3 above marth

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nice list Nef.

Would love to see Wario in bottom of S though, and Olimar and Lucario switched.
Not sure about lucario and zero though, they both seem equally viable to me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Because I love to post these, and I want to hear what people have to say:

S: Characters that will consistently win large tournies
MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
Falco
ICs

A: Characters that will be able to consistently place well at nationals and win regionals
Marth
DDD
Pikachu
Olimar
ZSS
Lucario

B: Characters that can do well as well like A tier but require an extraordinary player
GaW
ROB
Toon Link
Kirby
DK
Pit
Sheik
Peach

C: Edge of Viability tournie wise
Wolf
Fox
Luigi
Bowser
PT
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness
Mario

D: Bad but have some solid qualities
Lucas
Ike
Link
Zelda


E: Badly designed
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jiggs
Ganondorf

I like this list. A lot. Really great effort here.

The biggest problem here IMO is that Diddy isn't #2 and #3. I honestly think Diddy is #2 in the game.

I think PT is probably bottom of B tier ("can do well but require a really great player" describes PT very well).

I wouldn't put Lucario about ZSS, whoever said that before. Lucario is good but I think anyone thinking he's better than ZSS is clinging to the Azen glory days or something. He's just not as great as we thought he was.

 

[smashkng]

A question. Why would IC rise so many spots? Is it because Lain is getting better?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Because I love to post these, and I want to hear what people have to say:

S: Characters that will consistently win large tournies
MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
Falco
ICs

A: Characters that will be able to consistently place well at nationals and win regionals
Marth
DDD
Pikachu
Olimar
ZSS
Lucario

B: Characters that can do well as well like A tier but require an extraordinary player
GaW
ROB
Toon Link
Kirby
DK
Pit
Sheik
Peach

C: Edge of Viability tournie wise
Wolf
Fox
Luigi
Bowser
PT
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness
Mario

D: Bad but have some solid qualities
Lucas
Ike
Link
Zelda


E: Badly designed
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jiggs
Ganondorf

For the most part, this list is great. IN my eyes, it would be almost perfect if the following actions were taken:

- Swap Sheik and Peach around in terms of placements.
- Put Lucas back above Ness.
- Rise Zelda a couple of spots. She's bad, but she's not THAT bad.

A question. Why would IC rise so many spots? Is it because Lain is getting better?

Long story short, their tourney results are great, their matchups against top tiers with the exception of Snake are very good, and all in all if you can get their chaingrabs down they kick ***.

 

[Ripple]

I like this list. A lot. Really great effort here.

The biggest problem here IMO is that Diddy isn't #2 and #3. I honestly think Diddy is #2 in the game.

I think PT is probably bottom of B tier ("can do well but require a really great player" describes PT very well).

I wouldn't put Lucario about ZSS, whoever said that before. Lucario is good but I think anyone thinking he's better than ZSS is clinging to the Azen glory days or something. He's just not as great as we thought he was.

I could see PT moving up 2-3 spots but then I think fox and wolf are too low. its too confusing, as soon as I move a character up I don't want a character to move down.

I was actually thinking of Lee martin when thinking of lucario. I think that Lucaio has better tools against people than ZSS

 

[saviorslegacy]

In the past two lists people have placed Sheik at either 19th or 20th place.
That is the kind of a jump I want to see on the next tier list.

Speaking of which, when is it gonna come out, Januarty 1st?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lee and ksizl4life place with Lucario.

I guess for me I don't understand why placement matters so much with Tier lists. Chun Lee could take 7 our of 8 spots in a SF3 tournament and it wouldn't change the fact she is only second best.

 

[Tristan_win]

In the past two lists people have placed Sheik at either 19th or 20th place.
That is the kind of a jump I want to see on the next tier list.

Speaking of which, when is it gonna come out, Januarty 1st?

Quote for truth.

 

[Justblaze647]

Whoops. Nevermind.

 

[Justblaze647]

I think PT is probably bottom of B tier ("can do well but require a really great player" describes PT very well).

I couldn't agree with this statement more.

Edit: Didn't mean to double post here, sorry.

 

[Tien2500]

Because I love to post these, and I want to hear what people have to say:

S: Characters that will consistently win large tournies
MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
Falco
ICs
...

I was about to post a tier list of my own and it was more or less the same. Top tier is identical. I had DK a few spots lower and Ike a couple higher but other than that you have everyone within one spot of where I did I think.

Lee and ksizl4life place with Lucario.

I guess for me I don't understand why placement matters so much with Tier lists. Chun Lee could take 7 our of 8 spots in a SF3 tournament and it wouldn't change the fact she is only second best.

Results definitely matter in a tier list. If a character is bottom tier and starts winning consistently or top tier and can not place either the tier list is wrong and needs to be revised or something strange is happening in the tournament scene.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm sorry, but I'm laughing at Ike's position in Nef's list. If he was so bad, why have multiple people won tournaments with just Ike?

He should be in PT's current spot, PT down one, and Sonic up several.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

AiB Link boards says it's not so dangerous to get offstage against Snake. Which isn't true. Link's recovery is so horrible that even Snake can gimp him (for example, back air does very well to gimp him because of it's priority and it's easy to fair spike him out of his up b).

Link will go offstage if he can Dair safely on Snake.

Snakes Fair isn't reliable enough. If Snake had the room to Fair spike Link, 9/10 Link was too far from the stage to recover.

Bair works much better at gimping Link. Snake still isn't that threatening in terms of gimping as far as Link is concerned.

Results definitely matter in a tier list. If a character is bottom tier and starts winning consistently or top tier and can not place either the tier list is wrong and needs to be revised or something strange is happening in the tournament scene.

But you see, sometimes the lack of placings can mislead people into thinking a character is worse than they actually are.

Marth could have a 55% win streak and again Chun Li could take 7 out of 8 spots in a SF3 tournament but neither placed the characters as the best in the game.

 

[smashkng]

Still Link shouldn't be offstage (like almost everyone) against Snake if it's not for a gimp. Snake can just throw him offstage then back air him. I think Snake's back air goes through the boomerang. He can still be edge hogged and hit right after hit Link if he is still alive after. Snake/Link is probably about 65/35 or worse. It's probably 55/45 Snake favour against campy Snakes (which is the wrong metagame against Link). And non-spike fair kills at 100% or even earlier if close to the top.

Snake isn't one of the best edge guarders but still Link like against almost everyone he should avoid offstage at all costs, he can still be gimped in many cases (not as many as for example MK but still he can be gimped by Snake).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Still Link shouldn't be offstage (like almost everyone) against Snake if it's not for a gimp.

Dair is Link's earliest killer, he can afford to use it and recover if he does it right.

Snake can just throw him offstage then back air him. I think Snake's back air goes through the boomerang.

Depends on how Link throws it and the distance between the initial throw and Snake.

He can still be edge hogged and hit right after hit Link if he is still alive after.

Link can usually stay high due to his momentum canceling and weight that assist him with DI. If his recover wasn't horrible he would live almost as long as Snake in most MUs.

Snake/Link is probably about 65/35 or worse. It's probably 55/45 Snake favour against campy Snakes (which is the wrong metagame against Link). And non-spike fair kills at 100% or even earlier if close to the top.

I don't agree with the ratios, but you are correct. If Snake tries to camp, Link's MU will be much easier.

If Snake approaches then Link will be in a bit more trouble.

Snake isn't one of the best edge guarders but still Link like against almost everyone he should avoid offstage at all costs.

Especially Link.

 

[Tien2500]

But you see, sometimes the lack of placings can mislead people into thinking a character is worse than they actually are.

Marth could have a 55% win streak and again Chun Li could take 7 out of 8 spots in a SF3 tournament but neither placed the characters as the best in the game.

Tier lists shouldn't solely be based on tournament results but they have to be in line with eachother. The examples you gave are pretty reasonable considering the tier lists for their respective games. But lets say for instance in a major Brawl tournament Yoshi or Lucario took 7 out of the 8 spots. We'd have to take a serious look at that characters placement.

 

[Gindler]

AiB Link boards says it's not so dangerous to get offstage against Snake. Which isn't true. Link's recovery is so horrible that even Snake can gimp him (for example, back air does very well to gimp him because of it's priority and it's easy to fair spike him out of his up b).

Snake can gimp link, it's saying it's safe for link to go after snake when snake's already off stage. Which is actually true since snake doesn't have a move that'll put link farther from the stage than snake. When link's go off stage they generally don't jump into super slow easily avoidable spikes and why would link ever go below ANYONE when they have the choice of going off stage?

And since you're still talking about it, oooo snake can gimp link, congratulations. Even link can gimp link so It's no big deal.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Tier lists shouldn't solely be based on tournament results but they have to be in line with eachother. The examples you gave are pretty reasonable considering the tier lists for their respective games. But lets say for instance in a major Brawl tournament Yoshi or Lucario took 7 out of the 8 spots. We'd have to take a serious look at that characters placement.

For the two I listed above 2nd vs 1st may not have been a good example.

The point I'm trying to make is the placement in tournaments can be misleading to the true potential of a character when they either lack representation or have difficulties to learn.

I think people look too much into the placement of the characters when the tools and match-ups the character has should be considered more, IMO.

 

[Tien2500]

For the two I listed above 2nd vs 1st may not have been a good example.

The point I'm trying to make is the placement in tournaments can be misleading to the true potential of a character when they either lack representation or have difficulties to learn.

I think people look too much into the placement of the characters when the tools and match-ups the character has should be considered more, IMO.

The problem is that matchups and looking at tools are kind of theory based, especially in the matchups department. Tournament wins/losses on the other hand are pretty objective. Underrepresentation/difficulty is an issue but most characters get at least one strong rep that shows their potential.

 

[Nefarious B]

When I think about a character I definitely use a mix of matchups and tourney rep. However, tourney results can easily flux to the point where you really have to have been paying attention to them for a long while (which I have). Matchups are definitely the groundwork for my tier list, and should be for any other.

ZSS vs Lucario is a good example of where IMO matchups weigh more heavily than tourney results. They both usually occupy a similar area on the tier list, with each character having a few big names in the tourney scene (though L. Mart and Azen were more well known in their prime than Snakeee Dazwa and Nick are I'd say). However, I think it'd be hard to argue that ZS's matchups aren't better than Luca's, even if very slightly. They're very close in any case and should be right next to each other in the next list.

And I still disagree that Diddy is better than Snake. I think he's very close to Wario, but IMO the fact that you can CP against Diddy and can't really CP Wario well is the thing that pushes me over the edge in thinking Wario has the slight edge.

Also to Nintendofreak and Mountain Tiger, it's fine if you guys think Ike and Zelda should move up, but you've gotta say who would they pass up. I want to debate my list because, obviously, I think it's pretty correct, so try to sell me on who they should rise above.

 

[Tien2500]

PT should be above Bowser. Bowser has a few matchups (Dedede, Ice Climbers) which are pretty unwinnable and also has trouble with a Diddy. Trainer really doesn't have any unwinnable matchups although Snake and Marth are about 65:35. Other than that I think PT has better matchups across the tier list. Some characters are just simply in a position to take advantage of Bowser's weaknesses where Trainer's variety brings most of his matchups to about neutral.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

....I kinda did. I said Ike needs to move up to PT spot. As in move up all the way until he is where PT is currently. >_>

And please call me Niddo. I hate the name Nidtendofreak, but I'm too lazy to make it so I can change it.

As for an actual debate: Ike is better then those characters, and thats as much as I'm saying right now, I have a mid-term tomorrow to study for.


EDIT: *snaps*

Would people please get off of the PT hype train already? For crying out loud, look at PT's latest set of tournament results. Reflex only went to one or two tournaments, look how far PT dropped. Ike and Link are above him for crying out loud. PT is E tier. Reflex is amazing. That's all there is to it. For three stinking months I've been asking people to show me another PT who can place like Reflex. Nobody can. Know why? Because PT isn't D tier, let alone something crazy like C tier.

 

[Noa.]

Because I love to post these, and I want to hear what people have to say:

S: Characters that will consistently win large tournies
MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
Falco
ICs

A: Characters that will be able to consistently place well at nationals and win regionals
Marth
DDD
Pikachu
Olimar
ZSS
Lucario

B: Characters that can do well as well like A tier but require an extraordinary player
GaW
ROB
Toon Link
Kirby
DK
Pit
Sheik
Peach

C: Edge of Viability tournie wise
Wolf
Fox
Luigi
Bowser
PT
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness
Mario

D: Bad but have some solid qualities
Lucas
Ike
Link
Zelda


E: Badly designed
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jiggs
Ganondorf

Overall, it's a very good tier list that I agree with.

Peach belongs over Sheik and Pit easily. She has no unwinnable or nearly unwinnable matchups. Her matchup spread against the top tiers is pretty nice actually (MK; 40:60 or 35:65, Snake; 45:55 or 40:60, Wario; 60:40, Diddy 60:45 and Falco; 40:65) I'm not completely sure on Pit's and Sheik's matchup spread against top tier, but Peach's matchups are pretty good for a B tier character. She might even surpass DK. While Peach is certainly lower than them in tourney results, I don't think that's enough to put her under Sheik and Pit.

I would move Yoshi under Ness or Mario since he has so few even and advantaged matchups. Ness and Mario do have bad matchups, but they have enough even matchups to be better than Yoshi. Even though Ness has piss poor results now, last season he did extremely well for a low tier, even with matchup inexperience aiding him.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

People really need to stop looking at Reflex and look at the traits and facts about PT.

Or at least explain why he belongs (insert tier here).

 

[zeldspazz]

Oh my god you did not put Link over Zelda did you Nerfarious

Ive lost all hope now

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Or at least explain why he belongs (insert tier here).

. . .

Where have you been the last three freaking months?

He was in E tier.

Only reason he moved out was because of Reflex.

No real change in the character metagame outside of Reflex placing well (until like, last week apparently with that hydroplanning thing if it proves to be usable in tournaments)

No reason to move out of E, but he's suddenly up five spots. Not logical at all. Why can a character move up five spots because of one person, without any real changes to the character?

 

[Tien2500]

please[/i] get off of the PT hype train already? For crying out loud, look at PT's latest set of tournament results. Reflex only went to one or two tournaments, look how far PT dropped. Ike and Link are above him for crying out loud. PT is E tier. Reflex is amazing. That's all there is to it. For three stinking months I've been asking people to show me another PT who can place like Reflex. Nobody can. Know why? Because PT isn't D tier, let alone something crazy like C tier.

I'm not hyped because of Reflex. I second PT so I know the character very well.

So are you suggesting we use the tournament results of one month as a basis for our tier lists? If so you get Link>Ike. Link>Peach. Ganon>Ness and all kinds of ridiculous things. Most characters in the bottom half of that list would drop like a rock if a top player didn't play much as them.

Since you're mentioning hydroplaning as a recent development in PTs metagame I have to assume you don't know the character that well. We've known about hydroplaning/hydrograbbing for about half a year now... Last week? Lol. That pretty much exposes your knowledge of the character.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

. . .

Where have you been the last three freaking months?

He was in E tier.

Only reason he moved out was because of Reflex.

No real change in the character metagame outside of Reflex placing well (until like, last week apparently with that hydroplanning thing if it proves to be usable in tournaments)

No reason to move out of E, but he's suddenly up five spots. Not logical at all. Why can a character move up five spots because of one person, without any real changes to the character?

Zero Switching, better use of movement with Squirtle and Charizard (Hydrograbbing and Dragon Dancing, mostly), expanding the use of Ivysaur's excellent gimping game, and NOT SUCKING WITH IVYSAUR have gone a long way, actually, as well as people actually learning how to play the character (although not sucking with Ivysaur is the same thing, heh), and recently, True Hydroplaning.