The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

NO THERE IS NO AGREEMENT ON SMASHBOARDS EVER! DO NOT SAY I AM RIGHT!.

Most people say this when I agree with them later.

Well there are others that say the matchup is 70:30. The Falco boards have it at 60:40 last time I checked which is ummm wrong. I definitely thing the matchup is even or better on ZSS' CP.

70:30 seems like a stretch. 35:65 is as far as I'd put it looking st both characters.

So is the Dedede matchup worse than 40:60?

It very well could be. We do rank the 40:60's based on difficult and some are easier or harder than others despite the same ratios. DDD is at the top of the difficulty list, it's definantely realistically winnable, but it's a pain in the *** to do it.

And by saying Snake isn't 40:60 do you mean its better or worse? All I have to go on is the Lucario matchup threads so you'll have to catch me up.

Better than 40:60.

G&W is in the same boat as Snake with people saying Lucario's were doing the MU wrong.

 

[Tien2500]

Most people say this when I agree with them later.



70:30 seems like a stretch. 35:65 is as far as I'd put it looking st both characters.

Yeah we haven't really discussed the matchup all that recently. Back then Falco's CG seemed far more intimidating than it is now and we weren't quite as good at dealing with projectile spam.

It very well could be. We do rank the 40:60's based on difficult and some are easier or harder than others despite the same ratios. DDD is at the top of the difficulty list, it's definantely realistically winnable, but it's a pain in the *** to do it.

Better than 40:60.

G&W is in the same boat as Snake with people saying Lucario's were doing the MU wrong.

Yeah I saw the matchup against G&W and it struck me as kind of odd. I thought Lucario would be able to do more with his range. How exactly does Lucario play against Snake to make it even?

 

[phi1ny3]

There is sooo much variance on the procario's opinion of MUs its' kinda funny.
imo D3 stands where he is, I think there is much lucario has to do, but there's a few things going for him, like this is one of the few MUs that lucario AS camping is highly useful in a high tier MU, it's pretty hilarious. I think it's 40:60 possibly 45:55, but that's me, crazy man.
I'm the same guy who thinks marth is 45:55, snake is possible 35:65 and definitely 40:60 until someone shows how to do it besides the obvious juggle and edgeguard, and G&W is 55:45, all the first numbers being lucario's. Snake is tough for me, especially learning the stupid stuff he has against us.
I'd frankly like to know how to make snake more even besides taking it to the air, because snake is pretty much holds all of lucario's weaknesses into one char. I've gone over PSing the first hit, but he can just mix it up, and his jab mixup, I don't even want to go into detail.
There's a lot of discussion, but D3 is pretty solid as 40:60 among both D3 boards (lurked up on their input of the MU recently), and our own, it's doable, but it takes lots of stupid stuff to be pulled out.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Completely arbitrary match-up ratios across the cast should NEVER be used in a tier discussion thread.

Took a lot of willpower to say that politely

But that's what they're MADE for, to be useful for discussion of the metagame overall (match-up summeries are far more important to the players).


The problem is, people are too arbitrary with them.

 

[Browny]

they can be used in the SBR actual tier discussion thread maybe (as in they come up with their own ratios)...

It just infuriates me to no end when people justify their positions of characters on their own tier lists based completely on what other people say. I read almost every MU thread on SWF on a regular basis and boards will often come to a conclusion on a ratio with no or minimal input from the other side, and this is regarded as fact?

I would be greatly worried if the sbr actually works in this sort of fashion
"Hmm we cant come to a decision on whether to place X or Y above each other"
"Lets check the boards"
"X is reported to have 3 even, 2 40:60 and 1 35:65 against top tier characters while Y has 1 even and 5 40:60"
*X ends up higher on the list*

matchup threads, to me at least, are fine for something to do. theres not exactly much to talk about with brawl and playing super theory bros. brawl is a good way to procrastinate and learn about things to look out for / abuse in a MU. However I don't think the conclusions from such threads should ever be considered as fact, least of all regarding placing on a tier list :/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@DJB:

Where ZSS and Lucario's match-ups are concerned, I think the idea was just that ZSS fares better against the top 5-10 (if she isn't one of them herself... -_-) than Lucario does, not necessarily that the matchups are 40:60 and his are 35:65 or anything. We don't need a ratio to know that.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I still find it perplexing that people think Zelda should be in the bottom 5. Yes, she sucks, but she doesn't suck THAT badly. Out of all the people currently below her, IMO only Pokemon Trainer, Mario and perhaps Yoshi should be above her. Unlike quite a few characters below her, she has a handful of high tier matchups slightly in her favour (DDD, ICs and ROB), even if most of them suck.

We need more people like Snakeee going out and giving her rep....

 

[TheReflexWonder]

O_o... Dragon Dancing? I don't even know what that one is and I couldn't find a thread about it on the PT boards. Please explain this or point me in the right direction.

Hopefully, this explains it well enough.

[12:29] Teh Umby: Also, I can't find this Dragon Dancing thing.
[12:30] The Lunch Rush: Oh, heh.
[12:30] The Lunch Rush: It's actually a universal AT for all characters.
[12:30] The Lunch Rush: But it works especially well for Charizard.
[12:30] The Lunch Rush: It's just abusing your autocancel frames.
[12:31] The Lunch Rush: Thing is, Charizard F-Air is much better than originally anticipated.
[12:31] The Lunch Rush: If you do an immediate short-hop F-Air, you can fastfall it and land laglessly.
[12:32] The Lunch Rush: There's not much time for the opponent to retaliate in that time, especially if you're moving forward or backward.
[12:32] The Lunch Rush: In that, you can either shield or Down-Tilt, both of which will keep you really effing safe.
[12:32] The Lunch Rush: Or do it again. Whatever.
[12:32] The Lunch Rush: Do a retreating Back-Air.
[12:33] The Lunch Rush: Short-hop Back-Air works the same way, but you can't just buffer the fastfall and let it be lagless. It's a specific timing.
[12:34] The Lunch Rush: However, it's much more powerful, more range, etc.
[12:34] Teh Umby: Interesting.
[12:34] The Lunch Rush: The fastfall on the F-Air makes a huge difference in safety.
[12:35] The Lunch Rush: D-Tilt makes Charizard lean back before attacking, too, which helps.
[12:35] The Lunch Rush: Hell, you could F-Smash to avoid an attack and slam someone.
[12:36] Teh Umby: Knowing me, I'd do something ********, like Rock Smash.
[12:36] The Lunch Rush: Heh.
[12:37] Teh Umby: Or try and time Full hop Fair behind the opponent
[12:37] Teh Umby: and reverse Rock Smash.
[12:37] Teh Umby: Or just forego the whole process and Rock Smash.
[12:37] The Lunch Rush: The fire on the F-Air also causes fire-induced hit lag, too.
[12:38] The Lunch Rush: So you can do it to Marth's F-Air and punish if you space it right.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah I saw the matchup against G&W and it struck me as kind of odd. I thought Lucario would be able to do more with his range. How exactly does Lucario play against Snake to make it even?

There is sooo much variance on the procario's opinion of MUs its' kinda funny.
imo D3 stands where he is, I think there is much lucario has to do, but there's a few things going for him, like this is one of the few MUs that lucario AS camping is highly useful in a high tier MU, it's pretty hilarious. I think it's 40:60 possibly 45:55, but that's me, crazy man.
I'm the same guy who thinks marth is 45:55, snake is possible 35:65 and definitely 40:60 until someone shows how to do it besides the obvious juggle and edgeguard, and G&W is 55:45, all the first numbers being lucario's. Snake is tough for me, especially learning the stupid stuff he has against us.
I'd frankly like to know how to make snake more even besides taking it to the air, because snake is pretty much holds all of lucario's weaknesses into one char. I've gone over PSing the first hit, but he can just mix it up, and his jab mixup, I don't even want to go into detail.
There's a lot of discussion, but D3 is pretty solid as 40:60 among both D3 boards (lurked up on their input of the MU recently), and our own, it's doable, but it takes lots of stupid stuff to be pulled out.

DDD and Marth 45:55 surprises me, the rest I can expect. Even some Lucario's that I know are experienced enough disagree on MU's, Kita thinks MK is worse than 40:60, RJ thinks Snake is evenish, Phil here has some that are evenish that I wouldn't expect.

Last time I talked about Snake back in March I was an idiot, "force palm chain grab gets him offstage lets forget he can break out". Now I know better.

When is comes to camping, neither really has to approach, granted Snake is better at camping than Lucario is but BAS and AS can mitigate it. It's my way of saying, "stop making breakfast and do something else."

On the ground Snake wins, tilts are gay. In the air Lucario wins, juggling him is really fun.

Uthrow and Utilt will get him into the air much easier. Once he is in the air, keep harassing him keep him up there as long as you can.

Stage wise, for the love of Lucario ban Battlefield, it's his best stage vs Lucario. Lucario should try Frigate.

Ratio wise 45:55 Snake, his ground game still makes it hard to force him up into the air at times and he will live longer than Lucario can.

 

[Magik0722]

People see Pokemon trainer as a squirtle that never gets tired and stays out the entire match

Dont be doubtful Pokemon Trainer is a low tier character, the only significant thing that has happened is zero switching, whose name is deceiving, because you can still get hit out of a zero switch as well. If the opponent had god like timing he could even do a fully charged smash, but most of the time if the opponent knows PT well, its just a way to avoida fully charged fsmash from KOing you from the start, typically if im playing someone who knows the zero swtich itll still cost me around 14% - 20% depending on the character, some characters can be even more deadly and do around 30%, it takes practice to punish the zero switch but can still be done.

All these other small discoveries are hardly game changing and i wouldnt even call them discoveries

 

[ShadowLink84]

Characters who can act after doing their up bs, if you grab them during it and dont damage them will not get their recoveries back.

Doesn't apply to 'normal' recoveries.

They do not get their recovery until they have jumped.
So if you grab Snake at the edge of the stage after he has used his cypher and released him off the stage, he cannot ^B.

 

[Flayl]

In this topic: SHFF aerials are called by a different name so it looks like a character is more special than he/she really is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In this topic: SHFF aerials are called by a different name so it looks like a character is more special than he/she really is.

I like the term "Dragon Dancing" because I like taking moves from in-game Pokèmon and referring to Brawl moves as such.

 

[Clai]

Ok, and probably Ganondorf too, but G&W actually does **** him, as does everyone.

I truly believe G&W has no matchups in the game better than 60:40 his favor, excepting absolute bottom tier (Ganondorf).

Did you really have to say this? Really?

I have to get my act together and get out to play some people, because honestly, I can prove that Ganon does just fine against G&W. Tell me, how does G&W **** Ganon, especially when the turtle is absolutely useless against Ganon?

Yeah, the Ganon boards JUST did a G&W matchup discussion, but I don't really bother with what they say since more often than not, people just whine about how terrible Ganon is and don't look at what Ganon can actually do against other characters.

 

[zeldspazz]

@The GaW quote:

Zelda gets raaaaaaaaped by Gaw O_o

 

[Tien2500]

Just for the hell of it. My Tier List. Explanations for a few placements. Same number means a tie.

Top Tier -
1. Meta Knight
2. Snake- He has a ton of weaknesses but so far nothign that really offsets his camping game/range/power. He could go down in the future but not now.

High Tier-

3. Wario- Wario gets the nod over Diddy because he is harder to stage CP.
4. Diddy Kong- Only at his real best on FD/SV and FD should be banned. Particulalry an issue in longer sets.
5. Falco
6. Ice Climbers- Have the potential to go very high or very low depending on how other characters adjust to their unique playstyle. Some characters can avoid getting grabbed. Some can't.

Lower High Tier-
7. King Dedede-
7. Marth- I see Marth and Dedede as about even. Marth is held back by one really bad matchup at the top whereas Dedede has a bunch of bad matchups throughout. But Dedede also completely shuts down a large part of the cast.
9. Olimar
10. Pikachu
10. ZSS
12. Lucario- Lucario gets a boost mainly due to others falling.
(Squirtle)- If I were ranking the Pokemon individually this is where he would be. But he's not an official part of the list.

Upper Mid Tier-
13. R.O.B.
14. Kirby
15. Game and Watch
16. Toon Link
17. Peach
18. Pit
(Zelda/Sheik)- Like Squirtle. Not officially on the list but this is where they'd wind up.

Mid Tier-

19. Donkey Kong- This is assuming the infinite is legal. Otherwise he goes into a tie with Tlink and Peach.
20. Sheik
21. Luigi
21. Trainer
23. Wolf

Lower Mid Tier-
24. Fox- Fox is a good character who gets effed over by some lame things.
(Charizard)
25. Sonic- Like most characters below this point Sonic is going to need some mistakes to win most matchups. What sets Sonic above the rest is the set of options he has to confuse opponents and force those mistakes.
25. Bowser- Bowser has a lot of disadvantages but also some really good tools. A few hard-unwinnable matchups hold him back.
27. Ness
28. Yoshi

Low Tier
29. Ike
(Ivysaur)
30. Zelda
31. Lucas
31. Mario- Some people seem to think Mario deserves to be higher. Mario has enough things going for him to possible get higher if utilized in the right way. Still his weaknesses seem to me very hard to overcome until proven otherwise.
32. Link

Bottom Tier- Completely broken in a bad way.

33. Samus- If she had one reliable/relatively easy to set up kill move she might be a whole lot better.
34. Jigglypuff
34. Captain Falcon- Has a ton of speed to throw people off but doesn't have the moveset to really capitalize on it. Falcon really can't win most matchups without a ton of mistakes on the other side.
36. Ganon

 

[Kitamerby]

Kita thinks MK is worse than 40:60,

In all honesty, I don't think anything about it.

I just suck at the matchup and like to *****. <<

 

[Ripple]

anyone who doesn't realize pika is better than olimar needs to be kicked in the face

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In all honesty, I don't think anything about it.

I just suck at the matchup and like to *****. <<

*****'in

10nothinking

 

[Yonder]

Just for the hell of it. My Tier List. Explanations for a few placements. Same number means a tie.

Top Tier -
1. Meta Knight
2. Snake- He has a ton of weaknesses but so far nothign that really offsets his camping game/range/power. He could go down in the future but not now.

High Tier-

3. Wario- Wario gets the nod over Diddy because he is harder to stage CP.
4. Diddy Kong- Only at his real best on FD/SV and FD should be banned. Particulalry an issue in longer sets.
5. Falco
6. Ice Climbers- Have the potential to go very high or very low depending on how other characters adjust to their unique playstyle. Some characters can avoid getting grabbed. Some can't.

Lower High Tier-
7. King Dedede-
7. Marth- I see Marth and Dedede as about even. Marth is held back by one really bad matchup at the top whereas Dedede has a bunch of bad matchups throughout. But Dedede also completely shuts down a large part of the cast.
9. Olimar
10. Pikachu
10. ZSS
12. Lucario- Lucario gets a boost mainly due to others falling.
(Squirtle)- If I were ranking the Pokemon individually this is where he would be. But he's not an official part of the list.

Upper Mid Tier-
13. R.O.B.
14. Kirby
15. Game and Watch
16. Toon Link
17. Peach
18. Pit
(Zelda/Sheik)- Like Squirtle. Not officially on the list but this is where they'd wind up.

Mid Tier-

19. Donkey Kong- This is assuming the infinite is legal. Otherwise he goes into a tie with Tlink and Peach.
20. Sheik
21. Luigi
21. Trainer
23. Wolf

Lower Mid Tier-
24. Fox- Fox is a good character who gets effed over by some lame things.
(Charizard)
25. Sonic- Like most characters below this point Sonic is going to need some mistakes to win most matchups. What sets Sonic above the rest is the set of options he has to confuse opponents and force those mistakes.
25. Bowser- Bowser has a lot of disadvantages but also some really good tools. A few hard-unwinnable matchups hold him back.
27. Ness
28. Yoshi

Low Tier
29. Ike
(Ivysaur)
30. Zelda
31. Lucas
31. Mario- Some people seem to think Mario deserves to be higher. Mario has enough things going for him to possible get higher if utilized in the right way. Still his weaknesses seem to me very hard to overcome until proven otherwise.
32. Link

Bottom Tier- Completely broken in a bad way.

33. Samus- If she had one reliable/relatively easy to set up kill move she might be a whole lot better.
34. Jigglypuff
34. Captain Falcon- Has a ton of speed to throw people off but doesn't have the moveset to really capitalize on it. Falcon really can't win most matchups without a ton of mistakes on the other side.
36. Ganon

I'd stick Mario above Ike and Wolf ahead of Trainer and possibly Luigi, but I like this list .

 

[Tien2500]

I'd stick Mario above Ike and Wolf ahead of Trainer and possibly Luigi, but I like this list .

Yeah I wavered on Wolf/PT. I decided to put PT a little higher because I think they do better against MK and Dedede is awful for Wolf. Its worse than Marth/Snake are for PT.

 

[Kofu]

Game & Watch is NOT worse than R.O.B. or Kirby.

That is all.

 

[Justblaze647]

Game & Watch is NOT worse than R.O.B. or Kirby.

That is all.

Maybe not Kirby.

 

[Kewkky]

All of you need a good 'n' juicy Kirby ***-whooping.

Oh, I'm all for ZSS going up and stuff... But she's not going to go up much... Maybe just 1-2 spots, due to everyone else above her having it easier in more situations than her.

 

[Kofu]

Maybe not Kirby.

Game & Watch hits harder than R.O.B., has a less gimpable recovery (not necessarily better recovery though), better aerials, less undesirable situations, and better priority. Robot's better on the ground, heavier, and has good projectiles. I use both characters and Game & Watch is definitely the better of the two. Not saying that R.O.B.'s bad, though.

All of you need a good 'n' juicy Kirby ***-whooping.

I know Kirby's good, but he's got similar problems to Game & Watch, but he doesn't deal with them as well. His grab/throw game is certainly better, however.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Game & Watch is NOT worse than R.O.B. or Kirby.

That is all.

Pretty sure ROB is better then GnW.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I been thinking about thisa long and hard. I A starting to think Peach is better than G&W. idk yet for sure. But the more I think about it, the more it is starting to kick in.

 

[Kewkky]

I know Kirby's good, but he's got similar problems to Game & Watch, but he doesn't deal with them as well. His grab/throw game is certainly better, however.

In MY personal opinion, and mine alone... Kirby's better than G&W.

I want to see a real-live G&W super mega freakin' top player and have my mind blown, though... Sadly, they don't exist (same as Kirby), so for now, I'm holding onto my own opinion until I see a little something (or someone states a little something) that makes me think twice about my opinion...

From what I have seen, G&W's most famous things are bucket-braking, bair and uair (refreshes move even if it doesn't hit anything)... Until I see with my own eyes a G&W playing like the ideal G&W, I really can't see anything else for now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

R.O.B. vs Captain Falcon is fun to watch, camping like crazy to avoid Falcon's infinite, still in R.O.B.'s favor but the infinite is funny as hell.

R.O.B. has trouble with ZSS and MK, like big trouble. It's probably what is holding him back, these MU's are hard as hell.

 

[Aurasmash14]

All of you need a good 'n' juicy Kirby ***-whooping.

Oh, I'm all for ZSS going up and stuff... But she's not going to go up much... Maybe just 1-2 spots, due to everyone else above her having it easier in more situations than her.

Kirby is good, but waay overrated

 

[smashkng]

R.O.B. vs Captain Falcon is fun to watch, camping like crazy to avoid Falcon's infinite, still in R.O.B.'s favor but the infinite is funny as hell.

R.O.B. has trouble with ZSS and MK, like big trouble. It's probably what is holding him back, these MU's are hard as hell.

How is the infinite with Falcon on ROB?

 

[Kitamerby]

How is the infinite with Falcon on ROB?

It involves footstools and ends with a Falcon Punch.

 

[smashkng]

It involves footstools and ends with a Falcon Punch.

OK now I've seen it. So are there other footstool infinites on ROB other than this and ZSS' one?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think ZSS and Captain Falcon are the only ones.

 

[Umby]

I thought Sheik had something.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I thought Sheik had something.

Just a 70% combo that's hard to pull of in competitive play.

 

[DMG]

I've given up on G&W for Singles. He has too many hard matchups to make a large enough dent on the metagame. I look at the times I win with him, and I see that I usually have to outsmart the opponent pretty far in the first place to achieve that win.

He is better than Kirby. This is not debatable, I have laid down the Law of The Land.

He is either close to even with ROB, or lower. This is debatable, but honestly I would NOT be surprised if ROB somehow turns up to be better than G&W in the future. I will say however that there are a lot more good/great G&W players compared to ROB, and G&W has better tournament results than ROB, but as far as G&W actually being a better character is up for grabs.

Marth is better than G&W. This is not debatable.

G&W is still better than TL, Lucario, Peach, etc. These are also not debatable.



Wolf is underrated. He's easily better than Luigi.


I am also convinced that Diddy Kong is the 3rd best character in the game, and that Wario is either 4th-5th.

 

[Esca]

DMG, Pit is the 9th best character in the game.

 

[DMG]

DMG, Pit is the 9th best character in the game.

That actually isn't out of the question. Pit is pretty good.

 

[Nanaki]

That actually isn't out of the question. Pit is pretty good.

It's 100% out of the question.

Order doesn't matter:
1. MK
2. Snake
3. Diddy
4. Falco
5. Wario
6. IC's
7. D3
8. Marth
9. Pika

There's absolutely no way Pit is better than any of those 9. You could lump him in with the next set of characters (Olimar, GaW, R.O.B., Kirby, ZSS, Lucario, TL, Peach, DK) and make an argument that he's the top of them, but that would be a pretty weak argument.