The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Jupz]

inhale counts as a projectile?

oh right the star when you spit them out. that actually has amazing killing power so it can be useful in doubles.

and ZSS has items and a projectile

 

[shinyspoon42]

I didn't list squirtles B, marios vB, and Bowser+Charizards Bs because I think they don't act in a manner similar to projectiles.

Wario and ZSS have situational items, I'll go add them though.

And I refer to her as Jiggy.

 

[Tien2500]

Alright. I know they're different (although if you really want to be technical about it a thrown banana is totally a projectile) but I'm not sure what makes the distinction especially important. As in when would it particularly be relevant what we call them? And you somehow missed Zero Suit Samus on both lists...

 

[Justblaze647]

Wario (vB)

You mean side b?

 

[Ripple]

pretty sure wario's fart is not a item.

 

[deepseadiva]

I would argue Squirtle's B is a projectile.

How so? You can't throw water. It's more like a forcible excrement.

 

[Gindler]

How so? You can't throw water. It's more like a forcible excrement.

Well.......either way most projectiles aren't thrown.

 

[deepseadiva]

Without looking it up, I think the definition has to include some form of a defined trajectory. Items are easy since they're constrained to their solid objects (turnips, bananas), and energy projectiles are in the form of a definite shot.

Squirtle's Water Gun is more like a splash. Similar to Bowser's and Charizard's Fire Breathes - which I don't think can count as projectiles.

 

[Tien2500]

Projectile

1. an object fired from a gun with an explosive propelling charge, such as a bullet, shell, rocket, or grenade.
2. a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That will be the day, projectiles are moving down cause people are learning to powershield.

Oh look what MikeHAZE can do! (18 seconds in)

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol, that was cute...

 

[adumbrodeus]

About Pit- People DI out of his Fsmash very rarely, they have to have expected it coming and realized oh fsk I need to DI away. With a very small window for the hits, almost always both hits land.

That's because people need to get better at fighting pit, if it's a punishing move, it should be expected.

If someone is just zoning him, he runs in the opposite direction, turns around, and uses more pew pews. I will state for the record, I believe pits arrow to be the 2nd best projectile in the game. I consider snakes nades and diddys nanners or robs gyro to be items rather then projectiles, because they have the properties of items, not projectiles, and should be referred to as such.

...

All items in the game (with the sole exception of the badges) either are inherently projectiles or can be used as projectiles.

Projectiles are things where the hitbox is unconnected with the character, again, with the exception of the badges, all items have the ability to be used as projectiles and therefore should be treated as such.


Because they can freely spawn them, the fact that they are items as well makes no difference.


Differences that make a difference = information.

Differences that make no difference = noise


Cut the noise, it's irrelevant.

His range isn't actually very poor at all, it is better then a large number of the casts. Yes, characters like MK or Marth have much better range, but then they have the best range in the game, and he has slightly above average range, but nowhere as good. Characters like Pikachu, Falco, Wario, etc etc all have worse range.

His speed is good, I'd like people to say why they complain about it, he has some slow moves like fair, but his moveset as a whole isn't slow, its fast.

Sorry for this nub infested pit post, take from it what you will. ;P

The thing is, characters that don't have that range usually have alternative options so they don't get destroyed by zoning, pit doesn't, his dead zone for projectiles are too large, and his melee range is too short, therefore he gets zoned to heck and back.

 

[Nanaki]

I 100% agree with adumbrodeus's entire post.

And saying FLUDD/Water Gun/Fire Breath aren't projectiles is pretty dumb. "You can't throw it" doesn't qualify something to not be a projectile. By that logic lasers, fireballs, and thunder jolts aren't projectiles either.

 

[Tien2500]

I 100% agree with adumbrodeus's entire post.

And saying FLUDD/Water Gun/Fire Breath aren't projectiles is pretty dumb. "You can't throw it" doesn't qualify something to not be a projectile. By that logic lasers, fireballs, and thunder jolts aren't projectiles either.

I disagree with that. I don't think watergun/firebreath moves should be counted. The reason has nothing to do with whether you throw them or spit them or whatever. The reason is that these moves are completely different in their function than all of the other projectiles.

 

[Nanaki]

I disagree with that. I don't think watergun/firebreath moves should be counted. The reason has nothing to do with whether you throw them or spit them or whatever. The reason is that these moves are completely different in their function than all of the other projectiles.

Different how? They don't have huge range? Fox's laser doesn't go all the way across some stages either, does that not count too?

 

[Tien2500]

Well for one thing watergun has no hitbox, doesn't do damage, and pushes people away from you. I'd say that's a pretty big difference. Flamethrower (either version) is not really a small moving hitbox unlike other projectiles (except sort of in its initial hitbox maybe). Its a large sustained hitbox that gradually recedes. Flamethrower does have range but it doesn't really travel anywhere.

 

[phi1ny3]

Technically Lucario Force palm is a projectile, it can be bucketed/absorbed if the grab didn't connect.
People will probably put it under fire breath's category tho.

 

[Tien2500]

Technically Lucario Force palm is a projectile, it can be bucketed/absorbed if the grab didn't connect.
People will probably put it under fire breath's category tho.

I don't think being absorbed/bucketed makes something a projectile. ZSS' dsmash can be bucketed and it is not a projectile. Razor leaf cannot but it is.

 

[phi1ny3]

It also gets canceled by reflectors, but not actually reflected, like Zelda's Din's Fire.

Pit's Fsmash is easy to SDI, however I am a SDI god so it comes to me naturally (I'm also a mashing out of grabs God, a Doubles God, a Running away God, and a Wario God.)

Seriously though, Pit's Fsmash USUALLY is easy to SDI, but you need to be over prepared for it like I am.

We should offer a sacrifice to appease this god!

 

[Nanaki]

Well for one thing watergun has no hitbox, doesn't do damage, and pushes people away from you. I'd say that's a pretty big difference. Flamethrower (either version) is not really a small moving hitbox unlike other projectiles (except sort of in its initial hitbox maybe). Its a large sustained hitbox that gradually recedes. Flamethrower does have range but it doesn't really travel anywhere.

Pushing away from you is no different than pushing in any other direction (or not pushing at all, like Fox's blaster) - it's just a property of the projectile. Lack of damage is also unimportant - some projectiles do more damage than others, having damage be 0 doesn't matter (and Squirtle's uncharged water gun does 12%). FLUDD also has a pseudo-hitbox, as it has a priority list (and those moves that out-prioritize it result in Fludd Induced Hit Lag) - it just doesn't actually "hit" you, so it doesn't grant jumps back.

I see no reason those moves don't count as projectiles - the distinction is pretty silly.

Would flamethrower count to you if you just shot 1 burst of it? Then it'd be a moving hitbox that travels a short distance from Bowser/Zard. Being able to hold it out doesn't really seem to fit the bill to make it "not a projectile".

 

[Tien2500]

It also gets canceled by reflectors, but not actually reflected, like Zelda's Din's Fire.

I think for something to be a projectile it has to have a moving hitbox. Forcepalm is just a disjointed energy attack.

Pushing away from you is no different than pushing in any other direction (or not pushing at all, like Fox's blaster) - it's just a property of the projectile. Lack of damage is also unimportant - some projectiles do more damage than others, having damage be 0 doesn't matter (and Squirtle's uncharged water gun does 12%). FLUDD also has a pseudo-hitbox, as it has a priority list (and those moves that out-prioritize it result in Fludd Induced Hit Lag) - it just doesn't actually "hit" you, so it doesn't grant jumps back.

I see no reason those moves don't count as projectiles - the distinction is pretty silly.

I think having no real hitbox and doing no damage (Squirtle's uncharged watergun is not a projectile. Its a short ranged and pretty much useless disjointed attack) and doing no damage makes the moves very different. The difference between a projectile that does one damage and one that does zero damage is pretty significant. You simply don't use the moves in the same way which you would use any other projectiles.

Would flamethrower count to you if you just shot 1 burst of it? Then it'd be a moving hitbox that travels a short distance from Bowser/Zard. Being able to hold it out doesn't really seem to fit the bill to make it "not a projectile".

No. First off I'm not sure if the hitbox actually travels or if it starts at its maximum length. If it does travel then the time/distance it travels forward is not a significant feature of the move. Holding it out doesn't make a difference. The difference is that the hitbox is for all practical purposes stationary.

 

[Nanaki]

I think for something to be a projectile it has to have a moving hitbox. Forcepalm is just a disjointed energy attack.



I think having no real hitbox and doing no damage (Squirtle's uncharged watergun is not a projectile. Its a short ranged and pretty much useless disjointed attack) and doing no damage makes the moves very different. The difference between a projectile that does one damage and one that does zero damage is pretty significant. You simply don't use the moves in the same way which you would use any other projectiles.

You're making distinctions based on "I think that because it does no damage it doesn't count" type arguments. Define a projectile, and show me a way in which FLUDD/watergun don't qualify for the criteria.

Just because you don't use them the same way doesn't mean they're not projectiles. You don't use bananas the same say you use Pit's arrows, but that doesn't make them any less of a projectile.

No. First off I'm not sure if the hitbox actually travels or if it starts at its maximum length. If it does travel then the time/distance it travels forward is not a significant feature of the move. Holding it out doesn't make a difference. The difference is that the hitbox is for all practical purposes stationary.

I didn't think it started at max length, but I could be wrong. The hitbox is definitely not stationary, as you can move it around freely.

 

[phi1ny3]

A projectile is any hitbox able to leave the user's damagable collision bubbles and move by itself, and most of them can be reflected. Ness' yoyo is an exception, as it is not classified as a projectile despite its glitch.

Taken from Smashwiki

They include fire-breath, water gun, Force Palm, and others.
The difference as from what I learned is the mapping. If you look at character attacks, there's "bone" to them, and that determines whether it's a disjoint or projectile, iirc.

Also, if I recall, Tien said that he counted thunder as a projectile. There is a lot of correlation between thunder and fire-breath/water-gun, most of which hold the same criteria of not being a projectile according to Tien's definition.

But enough of that, let's talk about chars/tier list.
I think Link has more rising ability, and should therefore be higher than C. Falcon, and I'll try to defend rebuttals as they come along. I'm trying to get practice at this.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

But enough of that, let's talk about chars/tier list.
I think Link has more rising ability, and should therefore be higher than C. Falcon, and I'll try to defend rebuttals as they come along. I'm trying to get practice at this.

He should be higher than Falcon without a doubt.

Everyone else above him, with in reason, is up for debate.

 

[Tien2500]

You're making distinctions based on "I think that because it does no damage it doesn't count" type arguments. Define a projectile, and show me a way in which FLUDD/watergun don't qualify for the criteria.

Just because you don't use them the same way doesn't mean they're not projectiles. You don't use bananas the same say you use Pit's arrows, but that doesn't make them any less of a projectile.

Pits arrows and Diddy's bananas are different but I think way closer in function than watergun and any other projectile and as such shouldn't be grouped with them.

Maybe a little later I'll come up with something more definite but for now definitely a moving hitbox ,an actual hitbox, separate from the characters body. I'm also going to go ahead and say there is a length requirement otherwise Olimars Smashes would count and I don't think they should.

I didn't think it started at max length, but I could be wrong. The hitbox is definitely not stationary, as you can move it around freely.

I phrased that badly. It definitely does not start at max length but I'm not sure if it hits before the flame comes all the way out. At any rate it doesn't particularly matter in terms of funcionality. And you can aim it but it doesn't actually move forward any length.

As for Smashboards definition I disagree with them and I never said anything about thunder.

And Link>Falcon.

 

[Gindler]

Projectile

1. an object fired from a gun with an explosive propelling charge, such as a bullet, shell, rocket, or grenade.
2. a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air.

Guess I'll settle this. According to Tien's OWN definition. Watergun/FLUDD/flamethrowers would be in defintion 2 it is a body (of water/fire) impelled forward, as through the air. Still not sure about force palm whiffs, that one is tricky.

While we're on the what's a projectile subject..............bullet seed?

 

[Tien2500]

Guess I'll settle this. According to Tien's OWN definition. Watergun/FLUDD/flamethrowers would be in defintion 2 it is a body (of water/fire) impelled forward, as through the air. Still not sure about force palm whiffs, that one is tricky.

While we're on the what's a projectile subject..............bullet seed?

Thats just a dictionary definition. Someone asked for one and I gave it. It doesn't necessarily pertain to the game. And bullet seed is. Definitely.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Here's a simple test:


If you use Pit's mirror shield on the move, does it move the character?


If not, it's an independant hitbox that the move spawned, therefore a projectile. If not, it's not a projectile.

 

[Nefarious B]

This pretty much qualifies as "noise" as someone else put it earlier. Guys, no one gives a ****.

Let's talk about something interesting: Pikachu, how good is he? He so many powerful traits but at the same time a few debilitating weaknesses, so for me he's really hard to place. Thoughts?

 

[Nanaki]

Pits arrows and Diddy's bananas are different but I think way closer in function than watergun and any other projectile and as such shouldn't be grouped with them.

Maybe a little later I'll come up with something more definite but for now definitely a moving hitbox ,an actual hitbox, separate from the characters body. I'm also going to go ahead and say there is a length requirement otherwise Olimars Smashes would count and I don't think they should.

Olimar's Pikmin (smashes) don't count because they don't go far enough now? What about Snake's Usmash? Does it only count if you charge it up? Length requirements don't make sense.

This is getting ridiculous.

I phrased that badly. It definitely does not start at max length but I'm not sure if it hits before the flame comes all the way out. At any rate it doesn't particularly matter in terms of funcionality. And you can aim it but it doesn't actually move forward any length.

As for Smashboards definition I disagree with them and I never said anything about thunder.

And Link>Falcon.

It doesn't move forward any length, but it moves up and down - why does the horizontal axis matter more? Because you want it to?

If I throw a baseball up in the air, is it less of a projectile than if I threw it forwards?

Yeah, Link > Falcon.

Here's a simple test:


If you use Pit's mirror shield on the move, does it move the character?


If not, it's an independant hitbox that the move spawned, therefore a projectile. If not, it's not a projectile.

Interesting idea. Maybe I'll test that when I get home.

 

[da K.I.D.]

pikachu is top tier. ive been saying this since the beginning of this year

 

[adumbrodeus]

This pretty much qualifies as "noise" as someone else put it earlier. Guys, no one gives a ****.

Let's talk about something interesting: Pikachu, how good is he? He so many powerful traits but at the same time a few debilitating weaknesses, so for me he's really hard to place. Thoughts?

Well, I think the point is to define "projectile" as something that's actually useful.

 

[Tien2500]

Olimar's Pikmin (smashes) don't count because they don't go far enough now? What about Snake's Usmash? Does it only count if you charge it up? Length requirements don't make sense.

This is getting ridiculous.

Ok if you think that Olimar's Smashes and Bowser's Firebreath are used the same way as projectiles then thats your opinion. The difference is in how they are used. When discussing projectiles in the game it is foolish to include Olimar's smashes, Fire Breath, Fludd, Force Palm, Oil Spill, Thunder, ZSS' Dsmash, and other such attacks because they are not useful in remotely the same manner. Look at Susa's safe zone thread about projectiles. Would it at all be useful to discuss those moves in that context? Anyway I've said all I'm going to so onto the next.

Pika has a ton of potential but to me he's lacking that extra "****" tool that separates the S tier from the A tier. I think he may be like a spot below Marth when all is said and done.

 

[Justblaze647]

Why can't Thunder be considered a projectile?

Edit: Yeah Pika is pretty beast... something about QAC just tickles my fancy

 

[Darth Plagueis]

I think Link is a B- or C-tier. Just look at Izaw.

 

[Tien2500]

Why can't Thunder be considered a projectile?

Edit: Yeah Pika is pretty beast... something about QAC just tickles my fancy

Its a cool tech but in all the videos of anther I've seen I really didn't see it used that much.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Olimar's Smashes and Firebreath ARE projectiles. Its not an opinion at all; they function with the same properties of other projectiles. It's really of no consequence if they aren't used as typical fighter game projectiles, as this isn't a typical fighter game. Now if you are just narrowing it down to projectiles that behave in a manor to compliment a character's horizontal spacing in a particular way, then whatever. That doesn't matter at all. Projectiles are projectiles whether you want to consider them such or not.

Oil Panic doesn't have the properties of projectiles regardless.
ZSS' Dsmash is tricky business, as it's a projectile, but also not quite one. It can't be reflected, for example, but it also doesn't put her into hitlag and whatnot.

 

[Darth Plagueis]

But I think tier list are generally nonrelevant. You can win with each character against each opposite, if you're good enough.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Link is a B- or C-tier. Just look at Izaw.

What about him? Oh yeah he places like 33rd at the only international EU tourney he's ever been too. Totally proves that Link is C or B-Tier lmao

Seriously, Link blows. And I'm not sure at all about him > Falcon. That's a BIG maybe ...

I agree about Pikachu ... I said it before ... top of A-Tier (not S-Tier though)

 

[Tien2500]

What about him? Oh yeah he places like 33rd at the only international EU tourney he's ever been too. Totally proves that Link is C or B-Tier lmao

Seriously, Link blows. And I'm not sure at all about him > Falcon. That's a BIG maybe ...

I agree about Pikachu ... I said it before ... top of A-Tier (not S-Tier though)

I don't think he's better than Marth or Dedede.