The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[DMG]

He might be better than Pika.

Honestly, I bet more than half of the community doesn't REALLY know that much about Pika. He's like one of the least represented characters that is "supposed" to be good.

I'm not saying Pika is trash, but we as a community overall have probably failed to comprehend him well.

As for Pit, think about it. It's possible he's better than G&W (G&W is already gonna drop as it is), I doubt Kirby will stay much higher, and I'm almost positive he's better than Peach (not 100% sure about DK but DK has so many matchups to overcome, might be a close call).

As for ROB, ZSS, OLimar, and maybe Lucario/TL, I can see him competing for those spots. He might not make 9th exactly, but top 12 doesn't seem like an unreasonable possibility for him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DMG, I agree with most of what you say. I'm glad you finally come to accept that Diddy is better than Wario but I still think that Wario is S-Tier. It's true that Pikachu is underrated...I think he's a better character than Marth, D3 and ICs and should be high A-tier.

It's also good too see people getting around to realize that Wolf is really underrated.

Edit: I think A-Tier is Pikachu, ICs, D3, Zamus, Marth/Lucario and maybe Pit

Edit 2: I also think that ROB > G&W; however both of them as well as Kirby are B-tier. And I also think Olimar is B-Tier he's somewhat overrated

 

[Esca]

It's 100% out of the question.

Order doesn't matter:
1. MK
2. Snake
3. Diddy
4. Falco
5. Wario
6. IC's
7. D3
8. Marth
9. Pika

There's absolutely no way Pit is better than any of those 9. You could lump him in with the next set of characters (Olimar, GaW, R.O.B., Kirby, ZSS, Lucario, TL, Peach, DK) and make an argument that he's the top of them, but that would be a pretty weak argument.

I guarantee that Pit is better than both Pika and Marth.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

People are starting to realize that Pit's underrated?

 

[Nanaki]

I guarantee that Pit is better than both Pika and Marth.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I guarantee that Pit is better than both Pika and Marth.

That made me laugh.

Pit's close range game is simply ineffective, and his spam, while relatively good, isn't amazing.


He lacks the reliable set-ups, punishing game, and zoning game that marth has, as well as his overall safety.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pit has quite a good punishing game actually. Fsmash hits on the 5th frame and deals 19%, fair OoS is pretty good and so is utilt (hits on the 3rd frame and does ~15%). Pit doesn't have such a crippling weakness to juggle traps and is largely immune to CP **** unlike Marth who blows on many CP stages.

Overall, I agree that Marth is better but it's not "laughable" and the difference between them isn't that big. Pit in general has no big weakness and does fine on all stages. There is never a situation where he is a bad choice. He is strong offstage, has a good projectile and is good at punishing. Overall A-Tier, just like Marth. imo the difference is about a spot or two.

 

[smashkng]

Pit has quite a good punishing game actually. Fsmash hits on the 5th frame and deals 19%, fair OoS is pretty good and so is utilt (hits on the 3rd frame and does ~15%). Pit doesn't have such a crippling weakness to juggle traps and is largely immune to CP **** unlike Marth who blows on many CP stages.

Overall, I agree that Marth is better but it's not "laughable" and the difference between them isn't that big. Pit in general has no big weakness and does fine on all stages. There is never a situation where he is a bad choice. He is strong offstage, has a good projectile and is good at punishing. Overall A-Tier, just like Marth. imo the difference is about a spot or two.

What say about killing? This is a Pit weakness. And his fsmash can be DIed out of.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pit isn't bad at killing. His bair hit really hard and isn't situational at all. He racks damage really fast too so he can randomly kill with dsmash.

 

[Nefarious B]

I still find Pit's range and overall speed to just be lacking where it matters. If his fair was faster he would be amazing, but as it is, that move is not spammable with decent startup and cooldown. His utilt is excellent but it seems to have pretty bad range in front of him, which stops it from being rediculous. Nair seems pretty good, but the hitbox always felt awkward to me.

Overall he just doesn't have what it takes to break into A tier imo, he's definitely a B tier character, where he fits in that tier though is definitely still up for debate.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pit isn't bad at killing. His bair hit really hard and isn't situational at all. He racks damage really fast too so he can randomly kill with dsmash.

That's like saying Ike's Fsmash isnt situational at all.
You are ignoring the fact that the range on his Bair is pathetic and while it is certainly strong and decently fast, many characters simply have the ability to avoid Pit's kill moves because of that severe lack of range.

Pit has quite a good punishing game actually. Fsmash hits on the 5th frame and deals 19%,

If you DI the first hit, you can avoid the rest of the damage and avoid being killed. Especially at higher percents.

fair OoS is pretty good

Not really, the move is 12 frames.
Plus the frames it takes to jump you're practically saying Ganodorf's jab is a good OOS option.

As you mentioned Utilt is much better and faster. I dislike the lack of horizontal range but it works well.

Pit doesn't have such a crippling weakness to juggle traps and is largely immune to CP **** unlike Marth who blows on many CP stages.

I am confused here, since when has Marth done badly on a stage. yes he many not derive as much of a benefit, but he certainly isnt suffering from being CP'ed like say, the IC's.

Overall, I agree that Marth is better but it's not "laughable"

how is it not?
Marth has everything that Pit lacks. By a MASSIVE amount. It is indeed laughable to say Pit is better than Marth.

and the difference between them isn't that big. Pit in general has no big weakness and does fine on all stages. [/quote[
He has a TERRIBLE range issue.
How is hat not a big weakness?
in a game where the defensive game is so good, it means that up close, Pit suffers terrible spacing issues.

Characters like Marth and MK give him hell because they zone him so badly.
His projectile is interesting and somewhat good, but its not perfect because unlike say, Falco, he has to suffer the entire duration of the moves usage including the startup and lag time, so when its upclose, the spacing issue is even more pronounced since not only does his range overall become lesser, but also because if he uses something that DOES have range, he gets punished each time.

There is never a situation where he is a bad choice. He is strong offstage, has a good projectile and is good at punishing. Overall A-Tier, just like Marth. imo the difference is about a spot or two.

I disagree. I think he is a B tier character. He lacks what many of the A tier characters have, the ability to spac and zone from different ranges.
Pit really has nothing he can use at close range, and because shielding is so good in this game, it hurts his projectile game.
He is solid, but the few weaknesses he has definitely hold him back.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pit has quite a good punishing game actually. Fsmash hits on the 5th frame and deals 19%, fair OoS is pretty good and so is utilt (hits on the 3rd frame and does ~15%). Pit doesn't have such a crippling weakness to juggle traps and is largely immune to CP **** unlike Marth who blows on many CP stages.

Overall, I agree that Marth is better but it's not "laughable" and the difference between them isn't that big. Pit in general has no big weakness and does fine on all stages. There is never a situation where he is a bad choice. He is strong offstage, has a good projectile and is good at punishing. Overall A-Tier, just like Marth. imo the difference is about a spot or two.

DI the f-smash, what now?

Fair, really?

Utilt is good, but relatively easy to outspace, which increases his issue against characters with range.


And he DOES have a major weakness, range. He's got a really large deadzone, because it's not safe to use arrows at that range, smart players don't have to approach Pit to the point where he gets an advantage from it (in other words, into his safe melee zone, you know, the place that makes punishing games matter).

To a degree, what's holding him back is the Zelda problem, his projectile doesn't actually force his defensive game into play, which would make him significantly better.



So, no, it is laughable.



edit: Marth may have a big weakness to being juggled, but remember, Marth is also really good at juggling himself.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Eh, I'll just wait for the day when people will realize that Pit is top 10 in the tier list. I don't really care at the moment.

 

[Gindler]

Pit isn't bad at killing. His bair hit really hard and isn't situational at all. He racks damage really fast too so he can randomly kill with dsmash.

That bair does hit hard, I've died at 80 from that beast. Of course that was on the rare occurrence it actually sweet-spotted me because I F-ed up.

What say about killing? This is a Pit weakness. And his fsmash can be DIed out of.

Are you saying marth can kill? that's his only real weakness...but he's got that range




As for yoshi, anyone think he'll rise at all next tier list?

 

[Palpi]

Maybe 1 spot for yoshi.

 

[CaliburChamp]

It seems like all the faster characters are moving up on the tier list. Faster as in, faster than Samus.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Eh, I'll just wait for the day when people will realize that Pit is top 10 in the tier list. I don't really care at the moment.

That will be the day, projectiles are moving down cause people are learning to powershield.

 

[SuSa]

Projectiles will move further down once people accept my zones topic and start to use the zones.

They exist people.. they exist..

 

[Tien2500]

That bair does hit hard, I've died at 80 from that beast. Of course that was on the rare occurrence it actually sweet-spotted me because I F-ed up.

Did you DI wrong too? Cause otherwise it shouldn't be killing anyone at 80. Especially Yoshi

Are you saying marth can kill? that's his only real weakness...but he's got that range

Marth doesn't kill well but he kills a lot better than Pit. They both typically have to get their opponents to rather high percentages but once they get there Marth has more options at least. And his Fsmash can't be Died out of. Plus there is always the slight chance of landing tipped Smash.

As for yoshi, anyone think he'll rise at all next tier list?

I think Ness/Yoshi should rise over Lucas/Mario.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Projectiles will move further down once people accept my zones topic and start to use the zones.

They exist people.. they exist..

Preach it, I've been talking about projectile deadzones FOREVER!

 

[DMG]

I don't have dead zones, I have Verizon.

Can you hear me now? No you can't, cause I am running away...

 

[Crow!]

I didn't know that "projectiles" were on the tier list.

 

[SuSa]

No, but for many characters their projectile is seen as "good" when in reality, it's far worse then it appears.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I didn't know that "projectiles" were on the tier list.

Often "good" projectiles are major selling points, their effect on the tierlist is massive, therefore overrating them causes a major issue.

 

[Gindler]

Did you DI wrong too? Cause otherwise it shouldn't be killing anyone at 80. Especially Yoshi



Marth doesn't kill well but he kills a lot better than Pit. They both typically have to get their opponents to rather high percentages but once they get there Marth has more options at least. And his Fsmash can't be Died out of. Plus there is always the slight chance of landing tipped Smash.



I think Ness/Yoshi should rise over Lucas/Mario.

I didn't DI it perfectly, and I was off stage and it was fresh so I died. With nice DI probably would've lived...

If pit's Fsmash is fresh he'll kill, but that's rarely the case. If he catches you close you won't be SDIing the second hit. Tippers are nice, marth mains still have trouble tipping reliably though.

Mario's pretty good, Lucas though will hopefully be passed.

Preach it, I've been talking about projectile deadzones FOREVER!

I hate projectile deadzones, I know all about them

Often "good" projectiles are major selling points, their effect on the tierlist is massive, therefore overrating them causes a major issue.

It sure helps out snake and falco...stupid nades.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It sure helps out snake and falco...stupid nades.

Falco's relatively good actually, because he can auto-cancel them.

Snake's nades are just too different to discuss in the context of projectiles as a whole.

 

[Nanaki]

I didn't DI it perfectly, and I was off stage and it was fresh so I died. With nice DI probably would've lived...

If pit's Fsmash is fresh he'll kill, but that's rarely the case. If he catches you close you won't be SDIing the second hit. Tippers are nice, marth mains still have trouble tipping reliably though.

Mario's pretty good, Lucas though will hopefully be passed.



I hate projectile deadzones, I know all about them



It sure helps out snake and falco...stupid nades.

Tipper nair is a pretty reliable killer, better than anything Pit's got going for him.

Falco's relatively good actually, because he can auto-cancel them.

Snake's nades are just too different to discuss in the context of projectiles as a whole.

Ditto for Diddy's naners.

 

[Llumys]

My contribution is better than all of yours because of its lack of depth or explanation.

Meta Knight
Snake
Falco
Diddy Kong
Marth
Ice Climbers

King Dedede
Pikachu
Pikmin & Olimar
Mr. Game & Watch
...

 

[Nanaki]

^Lack of Wario is fail.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

People are focusing way, way way too much on Pit 101 in this thread. LOL HIS FSMASH CAN BE DI'D OUT OF EASILY. Wow! Next you'll be telling me that Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is a good gimping move.

 

[shinyspoon42]

About Pit- People DI out of his Fsmash very rarely, they have to have expected it coming and realized oh fsk I need to DI away. With a very small window for the hits, almost always both hits land.

If someone is just zoning him, he runs in the opposite direction, turns around, and uses more pew pews. I will state for the record, I believe pits arrow to be the 2nd best projectile in the game. I consider snakes nades and diddys nanners or robs gyro to be items rather then projectiles, because they have the properties of items, not projectiles, and should be referred to as such.

His range isn't actually very poor at all, it is better then a large number of the casts. Yes, characters like MK or Marth have much better range, but then they have the best range in the game, and he has slightly above average range, but nowhere as good. Characters like Pikachu, Falco, Wario, etc etc all have worse range.

His speed is good, I'd like people to say why they complain about it, he has some slow moves like fair, but his moveset as a whole isn't slow, its fast.

Sorry for this nub infested pit post, take from it what you will. ;P

 

[Ripple]

People are focusing way, way way too much on Pit 101 in this thread. LOL HIS FSMASH CAN BE DI'D OUT OF EASILY. Wow! Next you'll be telling me that Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is a good gimping move.

wait.... WHAT? WHEN WAS THIS DISCOVERED?????

 

[deepseadiva]

I will state for the record, I believe pits arrow to be the 2nd best projectile in the game. I consider snakes nades and diddys nanners or robs gyro to be items rather then projectiles, because they have the properties of items, not projectiles, and should be referred to as such.

Items which can be used as projectiles...

 

[DMG]

Pit's Fsmash is easy to SDI, however I am a SDI god so it comes to me naturally (I'm also a mashing out of grabs God, a Doubles God, a Running away God, and a Wario God.)

Seriously though, Pit's Fsmash USUALLY is easy to SDI, but you need to be over prepared for it like I am.

 

[Justblaze647]

About Pit- People DI out of his Fsmash very rarely, they have to have expected it coming and realized oh fsk I need to DI away. With a very small window for the hits, almost always both hits land.

These are true facts. Lesson? Don't spam fsmash.

Sorry for this nub infested pit post, take from it what you will. ;P

What are you apologizing for lol?

 

[Nanaki]

DMG = Dr. Mario God?

 

[Cold Fusion]

DMG = Dark Magician Girl

Spoiler

JK,man. JK

 

[Tien2500]

Spoon: Whatever you want to call nanas or grenades the fact are they're more useful than arrows.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Spoon: Whatever you want to call nanas or grenades the fact are they're more useful than arrows.

Items beat projectiles hands down. They are more versatile, more useful, and safer. And it is a key point that they are two very different things.

Characters with items are:

Snake (B)
Peach (vB)
Diddy (vB and B)
Link (vB)
T.Link (vB)
R.O.B (vB)
Wario (vB)
ZSS (spawns w/ items)

Characters with projectiles are:

Mario (B)
Link (B, >B)
Samus (B, vB, >B)
Kirby (B, ^B)
Fox (B)
Pikachu (B, vB)
G dubs (B)
Luigi (B)
Diddy kong (B)
Zelda (>B)
Sheik (B)
Pit (B)
Falco (B)
Ivysaur (>B)
Snake (>B, ^Smash)
Yoshi (^B)
ICs (B)
D3 (>B, B)
Wolf (B)
Lucario (B)
Ness (B, ^B, >B)
T. link (B, >B)
R.O.B (B)
Olimar (>B)
Lucas (B, >B, ^B)
ZSS (B)
Sonic (^B)

Characters without any sort of projectile/item:

DK
Marth
Meta
Charizard
Squirtle
Ike
Gdorf
Bowser
Wario
The Captain
Jiggy puff

 

[SuSa]

I would argue Squirtle's B is a projectile.

Also Wario has bike parts.

Jigglypuff is one word.