The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Kewkky]

DMG's got it right. ROB will never be top 5, not even with MK and Snake gone. If you uys TRULY think ROB is 12th because of MK (maybe Snake), then it is YOU guys who know nothing of ROB and his MUs. Why else do you guys think ROB isn't doing all right in tourney results? Marth also gets outplayed 100% by MK, yet his tourney results are way better than ROB's... He'd be higher, yes, but no top 5 material.

And how can ROB handle a planking G&W? He can't, period. ROB can't do ANYTHING to plankers, and G&W is **** good at planking... Maybe ROB goes even or whatever against G&W on-stage, but if G&W gets a good-enough advantage, ROB can't do anything about it. Remember: G&W's upB = Invincibility frames, and is a hitbox too... Don't know how ROB can handle that, since his aerial game under him isn't designed for that gind of stuff, and his falling speed is real slow compared to people who can actually handle plankers by stagespiking them/grabbing the ledge before them.

 

[stingers]

...yeah, i'm trolling

kewkky, shut up, your entire last paragraph is negated by the gyro, which alone sure as hell gives rob a better option against plankers then marth or ****ing ice climbers. stop posting stupid **** without thinking.

 

[Chuee]

Planking isn't a big deal.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Letsee, Marth's match-ups.


We have 3 arguable disadvantages remaining.


1. DDD: Actually more of an issue now without MK, but he's a minor disadvantage and still has a few other top tier disadvantages to control him.


2. ROB: Probably a 55-45, again, more of an issue now, but he really isn't a top tier character regardless, and still has Falco, an improved DDD, and G&W to contend with. He's controlled enough that he's not a major issue. I'll admit that I'm not particularly familiar with ROB wants to explain why Marth is at the advantage I'd be happy to listen.


3. DK, with DDD given a boost by the lack of MK and having an advantage against the new top tier DK is dealing with a far worse situation now, so I'd call him basically irrelevant.

Spoiler

Except in AN

How am I a hypocrite exactly? I could see you make a point about me being but explain how I'm being a hypocrite?

Not necessarily agreeing, but just explaining, he's saying that you're accusing other people of character bias but you're displaying the exact same thing yourself right here.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

no way does marth beat rob. ROB has a slight advantage for sure. Its a MU i don't get to play much b/c none of my friends play marth but when i go to a tourney and friendly or MM a marth i almost ever lose and the one time i did lose its b/c i messed up not b/c marth wins the MU. ROB has a least a 55-45 on Marth

edit: also i would say the G&W MU at worst is a 55-45 but in my own opinion its not a hard MU for ROB so i would put it even but other ROBs still say G&W wins.

I also say Falco has a slight advantage but it might just be b/c i lost to the one falco i have played in the last year but even then it was a close match.

Wario is probably even 50-50.

I also think the DDD MU is not has hard as people say but that my opinion.

we lose to ZSS but its ot unwinnable.

So i would say without MK and snake ROB could move up a great deal in the tier list.

 

[DMG]

Marth can SDI out of ROB's Uair and punish, and moves from ROB like Nair are seen from faraways/you have time usually to prepare as Marth for that.

Marth is safer on ROB's shield than ROB is on Marth's. Almost any aerial that lands on Marth's shield is a free Upb (I say almost because Upb looks like it might just barely glance ROB on a extremely well spaced Nair). Marth outspeeds ROB in the air with just about everything. Fair outspeeds Ftilt from ROB and although Ftilt probably has more range than Fair, his arm extends far enough that you can Fair him out of his Ftilt as he is reaching out to hit you.

Nair from Marthcovers a blind spot on ROB as well, hitting up and diagonal on him. His best move to use is an upwards Ftilt, but that won't always be an option for you to use.

Marth can Dtilt poke ROB's shield for free generally. Dancing Blade, when spaced, is hard for ROB to punish. Uair juggle traps obviously come into play as well.

Then you have the issue of how ROB is gonna kill Marth. Dsmash? Almost certainly not. Fsmash? Hard to pull that off. Usmash maybe? Depends. Marth isn't usually a sitting duck for that move even when above ROB. Nair can kill, but it's gonna be harder than usual landing it on Marth considering how fast he hits in the air and how dangerous it can be if you miss.

Edgeguarding is about even honestly. ROB has some limiting projectiles and has a solid enough recovery to go out there and chase Marth. Marth can't chase nearly as far, but he can "wall" ROB better than Rob can to him. Recovering High would be an ok choice if Marth wasn't so **** at juggling him. Coming in low is usually the path preferred, but getting back onstage from the edge is gonna be hard as ROB against Marth.

Marth can Fthrow to Fsmash? I believe at 0. Sounds tasty if that is true.

Basically, Marth on ground has safer pokes, better OOS options, less ground blindspots. In the air, he has faster aerials with somewhat comparable range overall (Fair and Uair reach higher, Dair is about the same IIRC, Bair for ROB is bigger since his whole body becomes the hitbox and he moves with the hitbox being active.), Marth can juggle ROB much better than ROB can juggle him back, they are comparable edgeguarding wise, they both somewhat have killing issues ROB moreso IMO, and frame wise overall Marth edges out on ROB.

55:45


Wario also clearly beats ROB. I used to think it was only 55:45, but I think it's 6/4 now. Harder than Marth definitely.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

People here are getting pretty biased.

1.Falco
2.Marth
3.Diddy
4.Wario
5.ICs /jk

For real though, Marth would probably be the best character in the game, followed by Diddy and Falco.

 

[Kewkky]

Sadly, stingers, the Gyro is not enough. What can it do, fall and tumble off the ledges? G&W can move around the ledges, uair the gyro, or simply upB through it since he's invincible and all. Ever think of that?

I'm not saying G&W ***** ROB, mind you... Just that you guys are putting off G&W too fast, and someone even said that the ratio is a "2008 ratio"... What new thing does ROB has now that he didn't have before? If anything, both characters have gotten better at dealing with weaknesses, and they both keep their strengths. I still see G&W hurting ROB more than he hurts G&W.

And maybe DMG says Marth beats ROB because, oh, I'm just guessing, but... ROB gets juggled, and Marth doesn't? Marth can kill with a decent number of moves earlier than ROB can with the few reliable kill moves he has? I dunno, I'm just guessing.

 

[DMG]

Diddy has more negative or close to even matchups than Wario though, definitely with weird lower tiered characters. Diddy having to potentially worry about Luigi or Jigglypuff is worse than Wario having to worry about Peach basically.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i made some edits to my post but of course it was the last post on a page so instead of re posting it just go read it.

Also dmg if you think marth beats ROB u must be lacking in your good ROB experience

 

[DMG]

Nope, ROB is a matchup I am confident in with almost every character I regularly play as. He's not a complicated character to figure out the quirks and tricks and features.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Diddy has more negative or close to even matchups than Wario though, definitely with weird lower tiered characters. Diddy having to potentially worry about Luigi or Jigglypuff is worse than Wario having to worry about Peach basically.

With MK and Snake gone Luigi may have a chance to be tourney viable, but Jiggs is never used consistently in big tournies so IDK if Diddy really has to worry 'bout Jiggs. Although it is still good to keep the matchup knowledge in mind.

 

[Kofu]

Marth can SDI out of ROB's Uair and punish, and moves from ROB like Nair are seen from faraways/you have time usually to prepare as Marth for that.

Marth is safer on ROB's shield than ROB is on Marth's. Almost any aerial that lands on Marth's shield is a free Upb (I say almost because Upb looks like it might just barely glance ROB on a extremely well spaced Nair). Marth outspeeds ROB in the air with just about everything. Fair outspeeds Ftilt from ROB and although Ftilt probably has more range than Fair, his arm extends far enough that you can Fair him out of his Ftilt as he is reaching out to hit you.

Nair from Marthcovers a blind spot on ROB as well, hitting up and diagonal on him. His best move to use is an upwards Ftilt, but that won't always be an option for you to use.

Marth can Dtilt poke ROB's shield for free generally. Dancing Blade, when spaced, is hard for ROB to punish. Uair juggle traps obviously come into play as well.

Then you have the issue of how ROB is gonna kill Marth. Dsmash? Almost certainly not. Fsmash? Hard to pull that off. Usmash maybe? Depends. Marth isn't usually a sitting duck for that move even when above ROB. Nair can kill, but it's gonna be harder than usual landing it on Marth considering how fast he hits in the air and how dangerous it can be if you miss.

Edgeguarding is about even honestly. ROB has some limiting projectiles and has a solid enough recovery to go out there and chase Marth. Marth can't chase nearly as far, but he can "wall" ROB better than Rob can to him. Recovering High would be an ok choice if Marth wasn't so **** at juggling him. Coming in low is usually the path preferred, but getting back onstage from the edge is gonna be hard as ROB against Marth.

Marth can Fthrow to Fsmash? I believe at 0. Sounds tasty if that is true.

Basically, Marth on ground has safer pokes, better OOS options, less ground blindspots. In the air, he has faster aerials with somewhat comparable range overall (Fair and Uair reach higher, Dair is about the same IIRC, Bair for ROB is bigger since his whole body becomes the hitbox and he moves with the hitbox being active.), Marth can juggle ROB much better than ROB can juggle him back, they are comparable edgeguarding wise, they both somewhat have killing issues ROB moreso IMO, and frame wise overall Marth edges out on ROB.

55:45

R.O.B. has projectiles which are pretty good at zoning?

At the very least for R.O.B. it''s even.

 

[stingers]

What? Marths don't SDI out of ROBs Uair and punish, Robs don't Fair Marth's shields randomly (nair and bair would not be punished on shield hit, lol @ dair), Nair being hard but not impossible to beat out (angled up fsmash wins) does not make a matchup and nair is hardly used anyway.

Robs Dtilt trades with Marths and ROBs ftilt outranges marths Dtilt. Dancing blade is hard to punish, great call, every character has that "problem". Uair juggling is one major thing that makes this matchup very difficult for ROB, however.

ROB CERTAINLY beats Marth in edgeguarding, theres honestly not even a contest, in as far as getting back to the edge is concerned. However, getting back from the ledge as ROB against a good Marth is very very hard, that's true...but really besides Marth juggling us very well is honestly the only other thing Marth has on ROB in this matchup. There are still a few tricks ROB has, many of these tricks can be covered by one thing Marth can do but never are all of them covered at the same time, so it's honestly not impossible.

ROB kills with Nair, Bair, Bthrow, and random edgeguards, for the most part. Fsmash is a viable but hard to land option unless the Marth is stupid with his approaches. Gyro is a very good tool for setting up kills. No, you are not always in a situation where you can just walk up and shield to destroy the gyro, don't be stupid. Gyro is a very good projectile...that's another story though.

And DMG if you're going to Pound 4 I'll MM you $5 2/3 ROB vs. Wario, I'd like to see why you're so confident in it.

 

[Kewkky]

Oooo, stingers askin' for a whoopin'.

Sadly, DMG is a Wario mainer, so his Marth will probably be crappier than his Wario. Why dontcha MM MikeHAZE if you're so confident? Or ask HolyNightmare his thoughts on the MU?

 

[stingers]

And DMG if you're going to Pound 4 I'll MM you $5 2/3 ROB vs. Wario, I'd like to see why you're so confident in it.

Like, honestly. lol

 

[Kewkky]

Like, honestly. lol

Hey, a man can get confused when you talk about Marth, then randomly MM his Wario. : |

 

[stingers]

Don't even try to justify it dude >.>

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Diddy has more negative or close to even matchups than Wario though, definitely with weird lower tiered characters. Diddy having to potentially worry about Luigi or Jigglypuff is worse than Wario having to worry about Peach basically.

IIRC, Peach is used more then Luigi and Jigglypuff put together according to that list. >_>

That wouldn't be worse.

Or it could have changed since I last checked. And why didn't you put down worrying about Ike! It's 55-45 Diddy's A, that's basically neutral! I'm insulted! How dare you?! I'll drag you to the highest court and get you banned from playing gay for this!

 

[DMG]

ROB's Uair is not that hard to SDI out of and punish. You can SDI up and Dair, SDI sideways and punish, etc. That's like saying Wario's Dair is hard to SDI.

Trading Dtilts with Marth is not a good idea. Also you can't Dtilt Marth's Shield even when spaced well and be entirely safe. Marth can do so to ROB and he's basically frame trapped.

As for Pound, I'm not sure if I can go. I doubt it at this point. If I was to go, I will MM you for $10 if you are down, that matchup isn't good for you guys though.

Also my Marth is pretty good actually. I use it in tournament occasionally when I want to. Pools matches I use Marth a lot, and vs characters like TL where the matchup is inherently easier for Marth than Wario, I just pick Marth and play gay lol.

 

[stingers]

I don't think, in the infinite amount of times I've played Dr PP's Marth with ROB, I've ever honestly commited myself to Dtilting his shield, because I would obviously get Up-Bed for it.

Against all of the other marths I've played, same thing.

I just said the Dtilts trade, which is true. I never said Marth's dtilt wasn't good on ROBs shield, because it is.

Oh and @ the SDI thing, not once has a Marth ever SDIed out of my Uair and punished me, nor have I ever seen it happen. But as a Wario main in a region with no ROB players, I'll just take your word for it.

Sure, $10 is fine with me too. You should go, because Pound 4 will be the best tourney of the decade and there's no excuse for missing out on it...

 

[DMG]

What I am saying is say Marth comes at you. You Dtilt him. He surprises you and shields it. Upb.

Say ROB comes at Marth. Marth Dtilts. Rob surprises him and Shields. ..... Nothing happens here lol.

Whether you throw yourself into the scenario or not, my point was Marth can go "Look, I'm gonna Dtilt here on your shield and you can't hit me back" where as Rob is like "Well I wish I could do that" lol.

 

[Shaya]

Marth ...
against ROB?

ughhhhhhhh

Not sure about Marth winning that one.

 

[DMG]

Marth wins.

IT'S THE FUTURE!!! ACCEPT IT!!!

 

[Shaya]

Okay done.

Marth will be 2nd in the game next tier list.
Believe it.

I have the power.

 

[Kewkky]

Oh, and what power will that be, Mr. Backroomer?

Spoiler

Oh.

 

[Turbo Ether]

If we're assuming Marth is going to SDI out of ROB's Upair, wouldn't you also assume that ROB will tech Marth's UpB?

 

[stingers]

dmg is one of those..."people" who assume that the character he is arguing for will play perfectly. lol

 

[Kewkky]

Unless ROB is a monster at predicting fast random moves like Marths' upB, I don't see how he can SDI it. That doesn't even have hitlag like Wario's fart does.

 

[stingers]

it doesn't take a genius to figure out if you hit marth's shield you're gonna get up-bed, or if you're close to the ledge and marth is recovering from below you he will try to stage spike you with up b. not that anyone ever does anything about it.

 

[DMG]

Lol.

People, everytime I argue for SDI, I argue for it in instances that are REASONABLE.

SDIing out of a multi Hit move that is WELL telegraphed in advance and has a LARGE SDI window is NOT HARD!!!!!!

Jeesus Christ lol. And YES, Rob can and should SDI and Tech an Upb IF he can. On the ground, it's really hard to do so. In the air, it's easier and puts the pressure back on Marth who will now get punished.

I also think ROB should be able to SDI somewhat out of Marth's Dancing Blade somewhat reliably.

I know you guys think I'm crazy, but seriously it's like no one's ever tried to SDI out of his Uair or SDI Tech an Upb in place or that people who do those things have Voodoo forbidden Magic accessible only to those linked with the 3rd Grand Master Sorcerer Bloodline.

 

[Shaya]

1 frame window of hit lag per hit = hard to SDI DB.

SDI of ROB's Uair isn't hard with Marth.
He'll be able to SDI to avoid the final hit, and most likely be towards the sides where I -may- be able to fair you. At least with my abilities of SDI (definitely not top rate, but wario's dair is pretty easy ) I may get hit again by uair from ROB at the very sides of the hitbox, but then I'd definitely be able to SDI too far away from a follow up again.

Also, I think someone said something about Marth not being able to handle planking.
He can at least throw out hits that won't get punished back (dtilt).
But the chances of Marth getting them off the ledge safely is still a bit of a downer.

 

[Kewkky]

It's not that people think you're crazy...


... it's that people have never seen that being done before. I'm also skeptical, but you always bring it up whenever we say the magical word (SDI), so I don't doubt your word either, since there's no reason as to why I should doubt it anyway. I don't even have a Wii right now to try it out myself, so I can't say you're lying with a straight face.

 

[Shaya]

Also you can't SDI to tech Marth's dolphin slash sweetspotted from about 40%, IRRC.

TOO MUCH POWAAAAAAR

but the SDI window on the move was minimal anyway...

 

[Turbo Ether]

I need to learn consistent SDI. I'm ignorant of the best directional inputs for SDI.

 

[DMG]

That's a good goal to strive for at first. Once you understand which way you need to SDI, it becomes a matter of imputing it when you need it. That and once you feel comfortable, experiment with using the Cstick during SDI and see what you can achieve in tandem with that.

 

[Popcornio]

I always here about SDI, but I'm not totally sure I grasp what it is. Is it just using the c-stick in tangent with the control stick to get more out of your DI or what?

I'm a little confused.

 

[LanceStern]

SDI is so tough for me.

Won't you accidently tap jump instead? Then your out of a jump just to get out of a multihit move...
And then I have trouble reacting fast enough. the move comes out and by the time I realize I'm getting hit by a Fox fair or snake fair or falco multijab etc. it's already finished

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh and @ the SDI thing, not once has a Marth ever SDIed out of my Uair and punished me, nor have I ever seen it happen. But as a Wario main in a region with no ROB players, I'll just take your word for it.

SDI is a tech skill, if he can do it then Marths just need to learn.

Jeesus Christ lol. And YES, Rob can and should SDI and Tech an Upb IF he can. On the ground, it's really hard to do so. In the air, it's easier and puts the pressure back on Marth who will now get punished.

The thing is, it doesn't help against his other option, which he can use in a lot of the same circumstances.

I know you guys think I'm crazy, but seriously it's like no one's ever tried to SDI out of his Uair or SDI Tech an Upb in place or that people who do those things have Voodoo forbidden Magic accessible only to those linked with the 3rd Grand Master Sorcerer Bloodline.

Hey! That's my bloodline, can I be an SDI master?

 

[LanceStern]

How can you possibly react fast enough to SDI a Marth Up B into the ground?

Unless you PREDICT he's using it, you're probably holding up or towards the stage to prepare for being knocked away. How can you get hit by the move that happens all but a half of a second and still jam BOTH sticks in the right direction?

Unless you're walking with the analog held down all the time