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The Ohio Circuit Championship: Delta Upsilon I - December 5th (POOLS POSTED!)

What's The Point

Smash Master
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What this rule is going to do to MW Smash is absolutely nothing. People will all go to the tournament because people like going to tournaments and it will be a good one. The rule will have no effect because it will most likely never come up. Even if it does, at worst three people will ***** and in truth it wouldn't have effected how the tournament played out.

As stated, it's the same as the first MWCE event with the stupid stages. People *****, but rather go to a tournament, so for the most part people go, and in the end people who you expected to win won.
 

AlphaZealot

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The Ohio Circuit is proud to announce the banner promotion contest!

Copy and paste the following banner into an editing program, personalize it, then put it in your signature and hyperlink it to the OC championship thread. A single winner will be chosen based on style/artistic appeal/what looks the sexiest. A runner up will be chosen in the event the winner cannot claim his prize.

The winner of this contest will receive free entry into the event of their choice (singles or doubles) at The Ohio Circuit Championship.

 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
The Ohio Circuit is proud to announce the banner promotion contest!

Copy and paste the following banner into an editing program, personalize it, then put it in your signature and hyperlink it to the OC championship thread. A single winner will be chosen based on style/artistic appeal/what looks the sexiest. A runner up will be chosen in the event the winner cannot claim his prize.

The winner of this contest will receive free entry into the event of their choice (singles or doubles) at The Ohio Circuit Championship.

 

KassandraNova

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LOL OS! xD
Yeah, I really don't like that rule... >:O
Rah! Grumbles!

(I am still entering the in the banner contest though... <__<)
 

AlphaZealot

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Time to test my image...

The Ohio Circuit is proud to announce the banner promotion contest!

Copy and paste the following banner into an editing program, personalize it, then put it in your signature and hyperlink it to the OC championship thread. A single winner will be chosen based on style/artistic appeal/what looks the sexiest. A runner up will be chosen in the event the winner cannot claim his prize.

The winner of this contest will receive free entry into the event of their choice (singles or doubles) at The Ohio Circuit Championship.

 

Kel

Smash Master
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The current #2 player on the Ohio power rankings, #4 player on singles points in your circuit, #1 in doubles points for your circuit and 3rd biggest money recipient from your circuit will NOT be attending this because of this rule.
 

AlphaZealot

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Before you pass judgment actually check your edge grabs at the next smashfest you go to (there is plenty of time to get this rule changed afterall). Smash64, I can guarantee you that in 99% of the games you have ever played that you have not exceeded grabbing the edge 25 times.

Couple that with...how many times have you timed out in the last 5 tournaments you went to? Out of how many matches? And how often was it the result of YOU grabbing the edge to many times instead of the opponent?

Start checking your edge grabs. Post how many you usually get. What character you were using. Who the opponent was. PLAY LIKE YOU NORMALLY DO! Check after each tournament match you go to this weekend!
 

Eddie G

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neohmarth216
This issue probably will not pop up very much, but a limit raise would be nice just in case.

And Kel...don't be lame like Inui and throw rank around. It really doesn't mean much in this topic, or in anything for that matter. =/

My matches only go to time sometimes with ITT, and that's only if I don't chase him properly. xD
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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There isn't even an argument, because there isn't a problem that needs a solution in the first place.

Normally, adding a ledge grab rule would look like this:

-a few tournaments show issues with planking, several notable upsets occur
-planking becomes commonplace in a few select areas
-planking becomes one of the best possible strategies in overall gameplay and is looked at distastefully
-anti-planking efforts are introduced

but we currently have this:

-anti-planking efforts are introduced


You don't ban stuff just to ban stuff. If you think its "gay", play a different game.

Your rule of saying "don't play on the ledge" with your reasoning of "it's not fun/exciting" is about as logical as me saying "don't throw bananas" with my reasoning of "it's not fun/exciting".


AZ, I sat down with you and talked about planking. I've tested with food, I've observed ledge grab numbers with different characters, and I've looked at every planking video I could find. I even attended the tournaments in the past despite not liking the rule and even helped promote them, but I know how your Ohio Circuit works and what your plans are with it. Standardizing doubles and singles payout by offering nothing but a few minutes of your time crunching data is one thing. Attempting to standardize a 25 ledge grab limit is not.

Like I said: I'm all for experimentation. This is not an experiment, nor is there a problem that needs fixing. There is a very clear line in making rulesets for a tournament, and "that's gay" has nothing to do with it, nor ever will.

Before you pass judgment actually check your edge grabs at the next smashfest you go to (there is plenty of time to get this rule changed afterall). Smash64, I can guarantee you that in 99% of the games you have ever played that you have not exceeded grabbing the edge 25 times.

Couple that with...how many times have you timed out in the last 5 tournaments you went to? Out of how many matches? And how often was it the result of YOU grabbing the edge to many times instead of the opponent?

Start checking your edge grabs. Post how many you usually get. What character you were using. Who the opponent was. PLAY LIKE YOU NORMALLY DO! Check after each tournament match you go to this weekend!
AZ, you just made an entire post to say in all caps "THIS RULE WON'T EVEN COME INTO EFFECT!!!!"

So why add it?


Besides, Clowsui already posted a link to a video where Kel had 20 somehing ledge grabs with a minute and a half left in the game.


And Kel...don't be lame like Inui and throw your local rank around. It really doesn't mean much in this topic, or in anything for that matter. =/
It's the "championships", and the rank is from this series
 

AlphaZealot

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Besides, Clowsui already posted a link to a video where Kel had 20 somehing ledge grabs with a minute and a half left in the game.
You are right. So, that means he probably wasn't planking was he? That is the whole point: this rule should cover all the cases where someone planks most of the match + it excludes almost (near entirely) all cases where players do not plank.
 

Kel

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And Kel...don't be lame like Inui and throw rank around. It really doesn't mean much in this topic, or in anything for that matter. =/
I have rank because I SUPPORTED HIS CIRCUIT UNTIL THIS TIME. The rank comes from this circuit/ Ohio PR (of which many tournaments are involved with this circuit). I posted my numbers because I was involved in this circuit until now.

stop changing names.
 

Overswarm

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You are right. So, that means you probably wasn't planking was he? That is the whole point: this rule should cover all the cases where someone planks most of the match + it excludes almost (near entirely) all cases where players do not plank.
Are you high?

Playing normally, Kel could have been given a loss if the time had run out regardless of his stock and %.
 

Eddie G

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neohmarth216
nor is there a problem that needs fixing.
So far I'm with you on this matter; but couldn't the same be said about your addition of custom stages? What exactly presented a problem so great that you felt the absolute need to add new stages to the mix?

There is a very clear line in making rulesets for a tournament, and "that's gay" has nothing to do with it, nor ever will.
Again, couldn't the same be said about the addition of new stages (and the switch of FD from neutral to counterpick)? What problems does the current stagelist present that would make you consider such a motion; concrete problems beyond anything along the lines of "that's gay" (in reference to the FD switch especially)?
 

Nope

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, I'm going to add a projectile limit to my tournaments so Snakes and Diddys can't just camp all day.
just make sure the projectile limit doesn't come into play unless the match goes to time and I will attend be just fine and play all the same.

You can play on the ledge all you want with ROB or MK as long as the match doesn't go to time
 

Eddie G

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I have rank because I SUPPORTED HIS CIRCUIT UNTIL THIS TIME. The rank comes from this circuit/ Ohio PR (of which many tournaments are involved with this circuit). I posted my numbers because I was involved in this circuit until now.
That's all well and dandy, but rank itself has NOTHING to do with the current matter at hand. Your frequent participation in the circuit is respectable, but complaints should really be looked into when presented by a large quantity of people or by those who present concise points to be addressed; not solely because someone is an avid participant or a higher ranked player than the rest. That's all I'm saying.

stop changing names.
What are you talking about?
 

Kel

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stew-foo, Mholtz! Stop shielding all the time! It's not how the game was meant to be played!

(you know I <3 you Mholtz)
 

fromundaman

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So apparently attempting to directly quote OS crashes my browser. He's that good.

Get rid of the rule. Even EC players lowered the time limit to 7 minutes and have 50 ledge grabs on for Viridian City, and they don't test ****. They just pull numbers out of a hat.
I don't see this as a very good supporting arguement :p


You both have valid points, and both have a good reason for these arguements. This is not a senseless rule, though I don't know if it's necessary.



That being said, why are you against it since it is taking the same approach that you have been: Come to the tourny, prove it's broken, abuse it and win money, and it shall get removed. (Couldn't this, in fact, be taken as one of the 'experiments' you suggest?)

Also, hasn't the edgegrab rule been discussed/used for over 4-6 months?

Not trying to directly take sides since I think both make good points, but that last post was kinda dumb.

I'm an idiot looking at the wrong page. The post I quoted was kinda dumb :p
 

Overswarm

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So far I'm with you on this matter; but couldn't the same be said about your addition of custom stages? What exactly presented a problem so great that you felt the absolute need to add new stages to the mix?
The inevitable fate of any Smash game is that it will lose stages over time. Until now, we have not had the ability to add stages. Keep this in mind.

At the start of Brawl, I was part of a group of smashers that were against using "random". This was a standard at the start of Brawl, carried over from Melee. "Random" always had the issue of corrupting sets by giving one person a good starter stage. Fox vs. Marth can go one way on PS1, and another on Battlefield (Melee).

To fix this, we came up with stage striking. I don't recall who thought of it first, but we all discussed it and refined it and found a few truths to it:

1. The more stages, the better
2. The stage list needs to be fair for every matchup
3. It has to be an odd number for an even number of strikes.

We started off with 9. Unfortuantely, Delfino was one of the 9 and didn't have a replacement. Due to several walls, water, weird edges that spacies don't snap to, shield pressure games that land you in water (free hit and/or spike) and walk-off ledges, we found Delfino often showed an irregular skillset for victory. In short, it was a counterpick.

So then we had 8. 8 is an even number. We move it down to 7 by getting rid of Castle Siege or Halberd, and all is gravy, right?

You know where it goes from here. People ***** about D3 having a walk-off CG on Castle siege and its gone. People didn't like Halberd's hazards, and its gone. This continues until we only have flat stages with platforms: BF, FD, SV, YI, and then LC or PS1 depending on where you are.

This itself is not an issue until you realize that now the intent of starter stages is broken. The intent was to make sure characters would find an agreeable stage, not a good stage or bad stage, in every matchup. Rather than having to cross your fingers like in random, you could actually get a decent stage every time! But now, certain characters started off on a counterpick. If you're playing a character who does well on SV, BF, and FD, you're at a disadvantage at the beginning of the set.

It was no surprise to me when Falco and Diddy rose in the ranks while other good characters, such as Wario, failed to have the same success. The starter stages helped determine their fate; this is in addition to removing a wide variety of CP stages in other areas. While Wario has aerial mobility and a wide range of combative options, Falco and Diddy have a very limited moveset. This is why Falco and Diddy do horrible on many CP stages but Wario can actually do better on them; Wario has the attributes to fit the bill.

Adding and removing stages inadvertantly determines what characters are good.

I agree with the removing of Delfino as a starter, and I think the removal was done in good taste. Other removals weren't to my liking, but I can understand where they're coming from.

However, this leaves us with a broken game. Our characters are chosen not necessarily by their merit but by how well they do on certain stages. How would you feel if our starters were Lylat Cruise, Rainbow Cruise, and Pirate Ship? Would your character do as well there? I'm sure G&W mains would be dancing nonstop for weeks if it were.

So how to fix it? Add stages!

I anticipated this would be an issue when Brawl first came out and tested custom stages with other players. I ran side tournaments, held MMs, friendlies abound, recorded matches and put them on youtube, etc., etc., and collected as much data as I could. I found similar results when compared to the normal tournaments and concluded that even if custom stages weren't necessary, they could be used and retain similar results.

From this, I know that custom stages can be added to freshen up an event. Make it unique, make it fun. It's a possibility that is determined solely by your audience.

But as my goal is to determine other things, I needed more variety and a bigger set of data. I gave the stages to everyone in my circuit group and had them test them out but received few comments.

Since hosting one "real" tournament with custom stages would be pointless (too small, not enough data), I decided to add it to the circuit. After the circuit, I'm done with custom stages unless I see a drastic need for them....

but people that hate the "janky" stages like Green Greens, PS2's transformations, and other such things should be happy to know that these stages can be remade in the stage maker. We don't have to actually remove stages anymore, and could instead simply FIX them. The data I'm collecting from this event will help us determine if a problem that has shown its head in Melee and, in some regions, Brawl, can be fixed.

(and the switch of FD from neutral to counterpick)?
FD is one of the most common counterpicks in the game amongst the top tier characters. This results in the saturation of FD use as a CP in tournament (if FD was the primary CP for all the bottom tiers, we'd never see it). As such, FD being such a strong counterpick for these characters but not having an opposite on the stage list means certain characters force an "auto strike", similar to how it'd be if we had Halberd, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, or other such stages as starters. While FD could be a starter, it would only be rightfully so in the case that there were other extreme stages in the mix that helped balance it out. If FD and brinstar were both stages on the list, you'd find that most matchups involving the characters that care about the stages greatly would see them both removed first.



In short:

Our stage list determines our character tier list, most especially starter stages. While I do'nt have a problem with hazards, mayn people do, and custom stages can remove them. Our current popular starter list is flawed in such a way that it has rocketted the popularity of two characters in the US while other characters with similar potential have been mostly untouched. Custom stages can make brand new starter stages that help balance it out for the entire roster, and at the very least the upper tier.

That being said, why are you against it since it is taking the same approach that you have been: Come to the tourny, prove it's broken, abuse it and win money, and it shall get removed. (Couldn't this, in fact, be taken as one of the 'experiments' you suggest?)
This would be acceptable if it was solving a problem rather than a potential problem.
 

Tyr_03

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Kel and Overswarm use tournament boycott...

It's Super Effective!

Alphazealout blacks out.
 

smash64

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Before you pass judgment actually check your edge grabs at the next smashfest you go to (there is plenty of time to get this rule changed afterall). Smash64, I can guarantee you that in 99% of the games you have ever played that you have not exceeded grabbing the edge 25 times.
probably not in a nutral stage but in pirate ship i pk thunder spam and i grab the adge alot there but thats about it

Couple that with...how many times have you timed out in the last 5 tournaments you went to? Out of how many matches? And how often was it the result of YOU grabbing the edge to many times instead of the opponent?
none
 

solecalibur

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBxjydK6WZw This....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTjFmBhcoMQ and this...almost worked.

You can do w/e you want. I'll most likely never reach time unless my opponent wants to be super gay.
The 2nd video proves you can get rid of planking but if it wasn't for planking OS wouldn't have had the lead and he is attempting to defend his tactics during a match

That is what Im observing and what I am assuming I'd love to argue that Port Town Areo drive should be banned because theres no tether for tether charters but guess what? Its not my busniess because Im a tether main and Im going to be baised and go against that stage (btw take me there for a CP, or maybe Im just mind gaming you)
 

solecalibur

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^^ yeh that isnt really planking at its jankyest but he has more than an opportunity to get off the ledge and approach but he didnt

Oh yeh...
 

TheKiest

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Wait... you got rid of the rule AZ?!?!?!? God **** it!

TOs can't even run tournaments anymore. ****ers.

How about instead, we don't throw them anymore? That'll show you *****es.

It's not even that bad of a rule, if ANYONE knows about BARO is that he will use any technicality to win and will ASSUME that the opponent doesn't know about it. T-800 even beat him in bracket in SB4 (granted that it was close). Baro tried this against Fonz at a Wings and Brew tourne, Fonz just stopped planking and just stood there until the cannon balls came. The stages where more planking occurs, have more risks to both players.

Whereas some games I went up against Kel (and see many MK mains do) where I couldn't approach UNLESS I was either:
A character with a projectile that arcs
MK
Jumping off the ledge to try to get the ledge first/hitting him before he gets the ledge.

I know I'm not a great smash player, maybe I'm even the worst. But those instances just flat out ruined the game for me. I don't want to pay 25$ to watch someone grab the ledge over and over until I/someone else does one of those three things.

As for projectiles, its called perfect shielding (with the exception of Fox's). Those are the easiest to do too. Even one of our own OUGA has been able to do that to most of POP's projectile advances.

Also this ledge rule has been in most of AZ's tournes, thus have been tested for months as well.

And finally, as for the fix what isn't broken. The MWC-E stage lists. While I agree 100% about the customs with OS, the other stages introduced were fine being banned such as port town and Onett.

Planking is a problem. Stage degradation is a problem. It's up to TOs to create formats to solve these problems and it's up to THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY to support this by going to events and experiencing it first hand.

Jeebus.
 

Baro

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If we're going to remove the ledge grab rule, remove the rule about chaingrabs past 300% ;_;



...


...


>:3


oh btw keist
"if ANYONE knows about BARO is that he will use any technicality to win and will ASSUME that the opponent doesn't know about it"
You were close. I'm just a kid that doesn't take the game seriously enough.
 

Kel

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Aw Keist, I ruined smash for you?

AZ didn't have to change the rule- I just wouldn't go. I'm practicing what I preach when I say don't go to a tournament if you don't like the rules.

Even if one person wins a game, or even a set because of this rule it's too much. There's no need to have it and it's not fair to anyone that might lose because of this rule even though they were "playing the game how it's supposed to be played" or whatever you kids are raving about. So, I won't go to these tournaments. The ledge is part of the game.
 

Eddie G

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HOWEVER...people should call it out if someone intentionally planks just to be a douche when there is CLEARLY an opportunity to recover onto the stage. If it occurs within the limit of the game's recording feature then that's perfect, but then the punishment for lying on the part of the complainer if obvious long-term planking does not occur would be an automatic forfeit of the set; that way lying is extremely discouraged. If the Wii has infinite replay on it, that's even better. Eh? Eh? How 'bout it? xD

I'm looking at you Overswarm; AZ was kind enough to just drop the subject and allow a leeway to those who were in disagreement, but don't go abusing MK's ledge game once you grab a lead if you absolutely aren't in a situation where you're forced to be on the ledge.

Now then...hype this shiz up! :D
 

ArgentStew

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IMO, if the rule wasn't widely used in the circuit events then it shouldn't be used in the champs... Isn't that how he was building the stage list? Based on the other circuit events? That's my logic... If I was AZ, I'd have called their bluff though...

On a side note, I have a lot of things I wanna say about OS and Kel...however, the content filters probably wouldn't allow it and I don't use that kinda language anyway... Mostly OS... :laugh: j/k of course
 
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