"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[SmashBrother2008]

Here's the other 2%.

Your invitee got it wrong. Ganondorf is a clone of Captain Falcon. Not the other way around.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Here's the other 2%.

Your invitee got it wrong. Ganondorf is a clone of Captain Falcon. Not the other way around.

Apparently, the invitee is also the host of the thread.

It's clearly visible of how clueless you are on "clone's" definition.

 

[Koskinator]

I just dont see how Ganon doesnt have the advantage here. Flame choke dtilt and thunderstorm completely wrecks falcon. 1-2 tipmans is gonna gimp him, he isn't going to get kills until a way higher percentage then us. The only option falcon has when he lands from above is airdodge to the ground, so we just flame choke him when he lands. Falcon has air and ground mobility and jab/grabs, we have ganonrape.

 

[Noodlehead]

I just dont see how Ganon doesnt have the advantage here. Flame choke dtilt and thunderstorm completely wrecks falcon. 1-2 tipmans is gonna gimp him, he isn't going to get kills until a way higher percentage then us. The only option falcon has when he lands from above is airdodge to the ground, so we just flame choke him when he lands. Falcon has air and ground mobility and jab/grabs, we have ganonrape.

i agree with you that ganon has the advantage but ganon is gay so...
back on topic
side b is not to big of a problem because it con be out prioritized by jab and grab.
falcon does have options when coming down top the ground
a) nothing b)raptor boost c) aerial falcon kick d)airdodge e)aerial
falcons will abuse speed against ganon. falcon will also juggle and gimp you anytime they get a chance. his knee gimp will destroy you. oh yes, we can also hit you with an uair when you grab us with your upB. ganon is big so knee and nair is going to be good to use against you. i can go in dept but im getting lazy.

oh yes, one thing you must know about falcon
HE'S MANLIER, GANON IS A LOSER and a n00b

now excepting ganon n00b flames

 

[Koskinator]

I wont flame you, but I'll gladly take your 10 American dollars at Genesis

 

[stRIP]

GANON IS MANLIER, GANON IS NOT A LOSER and I am a n00b

Fixed for great justice

 

[:034:]

Having played against Rebaz, I can honestly say this is a 55:45 advantage for Ganon. Ganondorf has a few things up his sleeve that really lay out Falcon, including dtilt's range, reverse uair that perfectly gimps Falcon and the thunderstorm which cancels out any ground approach (not that you use them anymore) and can combo Falcon. Also, Flame Choke > Raptor Boost, it's just fact.

Oh, for the record, Rebaz did beat me... twice... because he's just a better player than I am. d:

 

[Z1GMA]

and gimp you anytime they get a chance. his knee gimp will destroy you.

You seem to have fought many Ganon's whos DJ is empty when they're recovering...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I just dont see how Ganon doesnt have the advantage here. Flame choke dtilt and thunderstorm completely wrecks falcon. 1-2 tipmans is gonna gimp him, he isn't going to get kills until a way higher percentage then us. The only option falcon has when he lands from above is airdodge to the ground, so we just flame choke him when he lands. Falcon has air and ground mobility and jab/grabs, we have ganonrape.

Falcon could gimp Ganon a lot easier (un/sweetspotted FAir, UAirs). Jab is faster than any of our moves, it could out prioritize our gerudos (not that we use them to approach), it always connects into a grab (10-15% damage), and its priority is astonishing.

Falcon can’t kill us? You’re forgetting that we’re Ganon. Falcons slowest smash, which, apparently, kills could punish a majority of our moves. Warlord kick, a missed aerial Gerudo, Aerial Warlord Kick, a non-canceled Dair, a shielded Dair, and a shielded Uair, are just a few examples.

The match-up is still pretty close to even.

45-55.

 

[:034:]

Knee doesn't gimp Ganondorf. Sweetspotting it against Ganon's up-b is a hard ordeal with it's 2 frame sweetspot and flubbing it doesn't work. Rebaz tried it against me multiple times and it never worked.

As for uair, hey guys - WE HAVE AN UAIR TOO

 

[PK-ow!]

Forgive my scrubbery, but what stops Falcon from just being a bother with nair over and over?

Mix in some fakeouts, and lots of stuttered approaches, dashing, and some raptor boost to get Ganny in the air.... and the Captain's nimbleness should greatly support him here.

 

[:034:]

Forgive my scrubbery, but what stops Falcon from just being a bother with nair over and over?

...Your shield...

 

[@HomE]

Forgive my scrubbery, but what stops Falcon from just being a bother with nair over and over?

Mix in some fakeouts, and lots of stuttered approaches, dashing, and some raptor boost to get Ganny in the air.... and the Captain's nimbleness should greatly support him here.

The fact still remains... we only need to hit Falcon About 4-6 times until he is at risk of being KO'd by half our moveset... just saying

good Ganon mains are use to fighting people that are (way) faster then them... (basicly everyone is ) and it doesnt bother us to much..

55-45 Ganon
Sorry for no explanation, just listen to the other more articulate Ganon mains.. haha

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Li (Ganon) vs RAIN (Falcon) is way too good. Check it out!

 

[Noodlehead]

I wont flame you, but I'll gladly take your 10 American dollars at Genesis

i can't go to genesis =(

Having played against Rebaz, I can honestly say this is a 55:45 advantage for Ganon. Ganondorf has a few things up his sleeve that really lay out Falcon, including dtilt's range, reverse uair that perfectly gimps Falcon and the thunderstorm which cancels out any ground approach (not that you use them anymore) and can combo Falcon. Also, Flame Choke > Raptor Boost, it's just fact.

Oh, for the record, Rebaz did beat me... twice... because he's just a better player than I am. d:

yeah, approaching ganon by ground is not smart so most falcons wont, neither is ledge hopped moves.

Knee doesn't gimp Ganondorf. Sweetspotting it against Ganon's up-b is a hard ordeal with it's 2 frame sweetspot and flubbing it doesn't work. Rebaz tried it against me multiple times and it never worked.

As for uair, hey guys - WE HAVE AN UAIR TOO

flubbed knee gimp works, if you want to debate about it i'll tell you why later

 

[Squirrely]

Knee gimps work wonders against Ganons. Just kind of makes Ganon fall like a rock, which he can't afford to do. That aside, both characters have practically identical off-stage game. Personally I prefer using Falcon's side-b to stuff opponents into the abyss while giving me a recovery boost as opposed to Ganon's which kills me.

Most good falcons I've played hover at face level with aerials or do fake-out dancing to grabs.
When I play Ganon vs. Falcon (as either Ganon or Falcon) matches tend to slingshot either way. Ganon and stomp and smash the fluff out of Falcon if he is ever caught on the ground. Falcon can juggle Ganon across the map with u-airs, Dash attacks and tilts.

I've been in fights where Ganon destroyed me and I destroyed Ganon. Also where Falcon destroyed me and I destroyed Falcon. One of my favorite matches.
I can see Ganon having a slight edge in this fight but it's usually an even fight for me.
50-50 or 55-45 Ganon. Personally 50-50.

 

[TP]

Falcon could gimp Ganon a lot easier (un/sweetspotted FAir, UAirs). Jab is faster than any of our moves, it could out prioritize our gerudos (not that we use them to approach), it always connects into a grab (10-15% damage), and its priority is astonishing.

Falcon can’t kill us? You’re forgetting that we’re Ganon. Falcons slowest smash, which, apparently, kills could punish a majority of our moves. Warlord kick, a missed aerial Gerudo, Aerial Warlord Kick, a non-canceled Dair, a shielded Dair, and a shielded Uair, are just a few examples.

The match-up is still pretty close to even.

45-55.

OK guys. From now on, we are adding 10 to whatever number Kalm gives Ganon.

Jab can out prioritize choke? So does every other move in the game, as well as every grab. It is no more an issue here than anywhere else. They can punish a non-canceled Dair? Do those even exist anymore? Falcon has the gimp advantage? The one Ganon in this thread who has recently played a decent Falcon says otherwise.

And for the love of God, it's not Warlord Kick. It is Wizard's Foot, Wizkick, or Murder Kick. Only those.

55-45.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

OK guys. From now on, we are adding 10 to whatever number Kalm gives Ganon.

Jab can out prioritize choke? So does every other move in the game, as well as every grab. It is no more an issue here than anywhere else. They can punish a non-canceled Dair? Do those even exist anymore? Falcon has the gimp advantage? The one Ganon in this thread who has recently played a decent Falcon says otherwise.

And for the love of God, it's not Warlord Kick. It is Wizard's Foot, Wizkick, or Murder Kick. Only those.

55-45.

Er, I have a couple of things to say.

Firstly about "Warlord Kick", Ganon's not a Wizard, is he? We don't call Warlock Punches Wizard Punches, now do we? Second, I rather have you stay out of naming Ganon's moves. Leave that for those who actually main him, and have a icon of him beside their names for a reason.

On topic, this match-up is solidly neutral, for both characters.

 

[Koskinator]

Kalm, just because your better than TP doesn't mean that TP doesn't main Ganon. Wtf is that man.

 

[TP]

No, I actually don't main Ganon. However, I am still a "Ganon main" in that this is the only character board I visit, I practice Ganon more than any other character, and I have that icon. Does it really matter that Ganondorf isn't my best character? He is still the one I know the most about and use the most by far.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kalm, just because your better than TP doesn't mean that TP doesn't main Ganon. Wtf is that man.

I wouldn't ever go that far, Dave. Twilight doesn't main Ganon, literally.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wont flame you, but I'll gladly take your 10 American dollars at Genesis

ROFLMAO, I love how Koskinator is able to say "American dollars" and still sound badass at the same time.

I think we all know how vs Captain Falcon goes. I personally think it's slightly in Ganondorf's favor.

 

[Koskinator]

Yeah, it's how I roll.

 

[_clinton]

I like how Ganondorf's Smash attacks are actually overall faster than Falcon's...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I like how Ganondorf's Smash attacks are actually overall faster than Falcon's...

They aren't.

 

[PK-ow!]

I like how Ganondorf's Smash attacks are actually overall faster than Falcon's...

Fail.

This is why we don't post at 4:00 a.m., son.

Oh, and on the Wizkick: We shouldn't call it Murder Kick. With all due respect to Sliq, we simply must use that to properly refer to Usmash.


So... matchup.... 55-45 us, analysed into: neutral squareoff + we're heavier ?

I'm gonna watch Li + RAIN now...

 

[Z1GMA]

I'd say 50 : 50

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Fail.

This is why we don't post at 4:00 a.m., son.

Oh, and on the Wizkick: We shouldn't call it Murder Kick. With all due respect to Sliq, we simply must use that to properly refer to Usmash.


So... matchup.... 55-45 us, analysed into: neutral squareoff + we're heavier ?

I'm gonna watch Li + RAIN now...

We're heavier by what? .5% more average?

(Marth)

FAir....UAir.... Avg
159 ... 157 ... 158 ..... Ganon
157 ... 158 ... 157.5 ... C.Falcon *

You may even want to consider the difference between their speeds now.

and..about Li against Rain, there's a HUGE difference in their skill levels.

 

[@HomE]

We're heavier by what? .5% more average?

(Marth)

FAir....UAir.... Avg
159 ... 157 ... 158 ..... Ganon
157 ... 158 ... 157.5 ... C.Falcon *

I just checked the weight thread, and captain falcon is pretty **** close to Ganon...

Aaaaaand..

All i have to say is thats stupid as ****....

sidenote: why not test smashes? wouldnt it be more difficult to accuratly test aerials?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon however has like...half the KO power of Ganondorf like srsly. So really yeah, Ganon is gonna survive quite a bit longer...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Captain Falcon however has like...half the KO power of Ganondorf like srsly. So really yeah, Ganon is gonna survive quite a bit longer...

No, that doesn't prove a thing really.

What else, other than Falcon's lack of strength, is worse than Ganon? He recovers better, meaning less gimps, his up + b actually kills if it grabs a ledge-hanger (Ganon's just gets him punished, and only kills under the ledge, it also does 2% less damage), and his aerial and ground mobility is far more superior than Ganon's, I really don't see anything but Cf's lack of strength.

Ganon doesn't lack KO power, but he does lack at KOing his opponents, which is sort of like Falcon's lack of strength. Wouldn't that make him worse than Cf in general?

Other than that, Ganon's and Cf's BAir kill Yoshi from the middle of FD at 153% (from what I remember), both sweetspotted, and Cf has a faster/less ending lag BAir. Meaning, his BAir is like ours but better. His FAir also kills 23% earlier than our FAir.

..er I could go on with this forever.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon's recovery isn't significantly better than Ganondorf's. One good hit offstage and he's gimped as long as his opponent doesn't suck at edgehogging.

And no, against a good opponent, they LEDGETECH both Falcon and Ganon's Up-B and then punish you, and mind you I've done this before in dittos. Except let's not forget that Ganon's Up-B at the very end isn't a grab and actually has less risk of being punished if that lands. But a better opponent isn't going to screw up the timing when edgehogging either Falcon or Ganon, so the point that Falcon's Up-B kills edgehoggers is pretty irrelevant. They both suck a lot at recovering.

Both Falcon and Ganon have a pretty bad out of shield game. Ganondorf however has a few more options that are viable for killing out of shield. Falcon...at best he has Up-B and B-air. Ganondorf has tilts, and Dash Attack.

Falcon doesn't have any good kill moves that are safe on block or miss, well, the closest he comes to that is pretty much just B-air. Ganon's Up-smash is safe on block and mostly safe on miss. Ganon's F-air has good range and shieldstun, while Falcon's F-air does not (and rather if he sweetspots it on shield, he is in as bad of a position as Ganon when he D-airs on shield). While Ganon's D-air isn't good on shields, it's fairly safe on miss, and kills earlier than Falcon's Up-smash when fresh. Ganon's U-air is fairly spammable like Falcon's, but is better at hitting below him and has better power.

 

[Sliq]

Fail.

This is why we don't post at 4:00 a.m., son.

Oh, and on the Wizkick: We shouldn't call it Murder Kick. With all due respect to Sliq, we simply must use that to properly refer to Usmash.


So... matchup.... 55-45 us, analysed into: neutral squareoff + we're heavier ?

I'm gonna watch Li + RAIN now...

Sorry chap, but with no respect to you I do dare say you can go and fornicate with oneself.

 

[:034:]

What else, other than Falcon's lack of strength, is worse than Ganon? He recovers better, meaning less gimps, his up + b actually kills if it grabs a ledge-hanger (Ganon's just gets him punished, and only kills under the ledge, it also does 2% less damage), and his aerial and ground mobility is far more superior than Ganon's, I really don't see anything but Cf's lack of strength.

C. Falcon recovers worse vertically, he has the predictable arc so you can still gimp him. If you don't want to get grabbed by up+b, don't ledgehog, reverse uair him, it beats his up+b.

Ganon doesn't lack KO power, but he does lack at KOing his opponents, which is sort of like Falcon's lack of strength. Wouldn't that make him worse than Cf in general?

Other than that, Ganon's and Cf's BAir kill Yoshi from the middle of FD at 153% (from what I remember), both sweetspotted, and Cf has a faster/less ending lag BAir. Meaning, his BAir is like ours but better. His FAir also kills 23% earlier than our FAir.

You have no point here, especially since our bair is still an autocancel. They're not even remotely useable for killing on-stage, so your point is irrelevant. It's the same thing with fair, it kills earlier but you HAVE to hit the 2 FRAME sweetspot for this to actually happen. And hitting the knee against a good player is insanely hard.

..er I could go on with this forever.

Yeah, you could go on making crappy arguments like these, buuuuut because I'm way too lazy I won't be replying to it anymore. Whatever, you wanna put up that Ganondorf has a disadvantage, go ahead. This whole thread practically reeks of your bias anyway.

 

[hyperstation]

Sorry chap, but with no respect to you I do dare say you can go and fornicate with oneself.

Sliq, I had a monocle, top hat and pipe long before that lame dinosaur of yours got one. l2avatar.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

C. Falcon recovers worse vertically, he has the predictable arc so you can still gimp him. If you don't want to get grabbed by up+b, don't ledgehog, reverse uair him, it beats his up+b..

His Up+B beats our reverse UAirs.

You have no point here, especially since our bair is still an autocancel. They're not even remotely useable for killing on-stage, so your point is irrelevant. It's the same thing with fair, it kills earlier but you HAVE to hit the 2 FRAME sweetspot for this to actually happen. And hitting the knee against a good player is insanely hard.

Actually, you have no points there. Yes, our BAir autocancels. But it isn't any faster, nor is it less laggier than his.

Yeah, you could go on making crappy arguments like these, buuuuut because I'm way too lazy I won't be replying to it anymore. Whatever, you wanna put up that Ganondorf has a disadvantage, go ahead. This whole thread practically reeks of your bias anyway.

Nah, my arguments are no where near as crappy as yours. I actually plan on using Ganon in tournaments.

This whole thread practically reeks of your bias anyway.

If this thread was really just my bias, I wouldn't be listening to any of your opinions on the match-ups, nor would I not be changing them around. Which, I am doing.

 

[:034:]

His Up+B beats our reverse UAirs.

l2space

Actually, you have no points there. Yes, our BAir autocancels. But it isn't any faster, nor is it less laggier than his.

You're saying our bair is worse than Falcon's because of it's speed, yet it comes out at the same time, and both autocancel. Falcon's has less lag, but what does it matter when you can autocancel it to have NO lag?

Nah, my arguments are no where near as crappy as yours. I actually plan on using Ganon in tournaments.

First of all, your 'plan' has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and second of all, I've already used him in tournament so where you at.

Also, even though my arguments are 'crappy', you say nothing about my fair argument. Oh wait! Maybe it's because I'm actually right.

If this thread was really just my bias, I wouldn't be listening to any of your opinions on the match-ups, nor would I not be changing them around. Which, I am doing.

You might be listening to opinions, but you're always downgrading Ganondorf way too much. I realize that you probably want is for him to be the worst so everybody will underestimate him so that you can ****, but I just can't stand for that.

You are listening to opinions, but pretty much only to the worst. For instance, the PT match-up, PT mains said that some of the Pokémon definitely have trouble with Ganondorf and that it could be close to 50:50 overall, then there were some buttholes who said that was wrong and hey! Suddenly your match-up chart has another 30:70 on it because of Squirtle (not a 70:30 at all). I call bias, but whatever. You have your ideas, I have mine.

 

[adumbrodeus]

...

You people seem to be missing something important and gamechanging.


Ganondorf has a safe on block dtilt and Falcon doesn't have any same on block approaches.


It's nowhere near even when properly played.

 

[:034:]

Safe on Powershield?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Safe on Powershield?

Not sure on that one, but powershielding requires prediction for something that has this level of start-up, so safe on powershield would just expand the advantage.